>>3978592
Final Fantasy X

>>3978592
Pokemon, and I'm not joking
It's only ever well balanced in stadium, pvp, battle tower/facility things, and romhacks though

>>3978592
It sure as fuck isn't Radiant Historia.There isn't another JRPG out there with more overrated combat

>>3978592

Valkyrie Profile Lenneth and Silmeria followed by Vagrant Story. Shadow Hearts and Legend of Dragoon are both also pretty good.

>>3978592
Why is Mana Khemia on this list? Pretty barebones desu.

>>3978592
FFXI

File: 1762280623591974.png (709.3 KB)

>>3978592

Playing the Trails in the Sky remake, it should be on the list.

File: 1630391715808.png (73.7 KB)

>>3978592
>jarpig combat system
more like spreadsheet system LMAO

>>3978592
HOLD UP, THERE'S A RECENT SAGA GAME?!
Where was the marketing for this?!

>>3978592
TWEWY, Xenoblade 2, and mother 3 are among my favorites

>>3978735
What does Don Cheadle do?

>>3978592
Saga2 and Saga Frontier.

>>3978742
>the marketing for this?!
https://www.rpgfan.com/review/saga-emerald-beyond/
https://www.nintendolife.com/reviews/switch-eshop/saga-emerald-beyond

rpgfan and nintendies reviewed it.

jRPGs don't have good combat systems because they divorce combat from character development.

>>3978593
Yes

>>3978857
Don Cheadle is the enemy character/boss
>>3978865
Name five (7) games that do this

>>3978598
>Valkyrie Profile Lenneth
>best combat system ever
Actual retard take, and I love Valkyrie profile, but the combat is monotonous and lacks depth despite seeming to have any due to its needless complexities. It's basically just juggling. Best combat system of all time is laughable

>>3978870
Any game with character creation, where the combat isn't bespoke to a series of mini systems.

>>3978872
>>3978865
you're a bot aren't u?

>>3978874
No, just much more intelligent than you.

File: 1694722541878.webm (3.9 MB)

>>3978742
there's no way you missed the /v/iral marketing

>>3978857
Protects trans kids of color

>>3978592
Not necessarily best, but Skies of Arcadia was interesting for a turn based one.

>>3978595
Any list of good JRPG battle systems that DOESN'T include any Pokemon is pretty much guaranteed to be made by someone worthless who cares more about games "appearing mature" than about gameplay quality.

Good RPG combat should have
>a mix of the expected and the random
>good overall balance

This is what keeps combat engaging and interesting. Everything else is superflux. "Timed hits" and all that shit are bandaids to hide the fact that they failed to make things engaging.

tl;dr it doesn't get better than Dragon Quest 2

File: sacrifice.png (25.0 KB)

>>3979152
>Dragon Quest 2
>good overall balance
>Gold Batboon cast Sacrifice

>>3979152
>dragon quest as an example of "engaging and interesting RPG combat"

Breath of Fire 5 is fun, if a bit uninspired in character movesets and random effects

>>3978592

E33

>>3978838
Xenoblade's combat is ass.

>>3979193
the D Counter sucks any fun out of the combat system

>>3979195
>hi-def Paper Mario
and?

>>3978878
why is the muslim mina the only gunner?
and nice pussy.

>>3979235
I think anyone can be a gunner in that game because there are a ton of playable characters. /v/ was just being /v/ because of the Muslim character

>>3979196
You are free to have your own opinion

>>3978592
there is not a single game released before 2000 on this list, very suspect. Do not trust these posts.

>>3979875
VP1 is right there

>>3979877
I was expecting that response but I didnt feel like qualifying my statement with a game released december 22, 1999

>>3979879
Fair

>>3979152
You had me until you said Dragon Quest, what the absolute fuck are you talking about
>>3979875
Mid 2000s was the best for interesting combat system, devs were still figuring stuff out in the 90s. Honestly Grandia 3 has a better combat system than the first two it's just no one has any nostalgia for it.

>>3978592
I dislike FF's ATB, but like Chrono Trigger's combat. Unfortunately it introduces multitarget magic attacks into it, and that's a flaw IMO. Before getting magic I'm trying to time and line up enemies for special attacks, and that's where the combat shines the brightest.

>>3979127
Pokémon's combat only shines in vs fights.

>>3978595
Only interesting in PVP and it's not remotely balanced there.
The system is too simple to do PVE well. No, trying to win Battle Tower 200 times in a row or beat the E4 with a Magikarp is not good PVE.

>>3979909
Chrono Trigger is a fun movie game but the combat is too easy for any of the position or combo mechanics to matter. Being more engaging than FF4 is not a flex

>>3979918
They still matter even if there isn't much risk of losing. Like, winning in 1 turn instead of 2 turns is satisfying and also saves MP and items in the long run.
It's still a great battle system fundamentally. All it takes to improve the combat is to make the enemies hit harder.

Phantasy Star 4

>>3979909
I feel this way, on in regards to Grandia combat. The fun is in timing combo attacks, critical attacks, defend endures, and defend evades with some special attacks for flair.

... then you start getting AoE magic. Worse, in 1? You get stat gains for leveling up your magic element skills. So the meta becomes spamming AoEs. Even if you want to be stubborn and forget magic, the enemy squads get more dense and more compact--perfect for spamming AoE magic.

Like they designed this entire system around you running around a battlefield in able to land a melee attack or outrun an enemy attack... and all of that p'much goes away because magic has infinity range. Magic reduces this majestic combat system into the bog-standard RPG combat system in everything but pretense.

>>3979989
Oh my shit, how did I manage to garble the fuck out of this? How? Let's try that one again:

"I feel this way too about the combat in Grandia. On paper it is amazing with how you time and use combo attacks, critical attacks, defend endures, and defend evades, and I like the initial special skill attacks. I think they add some needed flair to an otherwise immaculate system.

... then magic ruins the fucking game, especially in Grandia 1 because the stat gains on leveling up magic skill is too enticing to ignore. They even organize the enemy squads to essentially be bowling pins to knock down to the magic. Even if you wanted to be stubborn and just not use the magic, the enemy squad sizes get so big that combat starts to take too long. They really really want you to use the magic once you get it, and that's really fucking unfortunate.

It's unfortunate because in the first bit of the game they have all these neat combat innovations that they designed. You have an entire battlefield to run around and you have to take into account your position, your enemy's position, and the timing of when attacks will go off--yours and the enemy's. Sometimes it's more prudent to run away and get your next turn quicker. Some times it's more prudent to sit there and defend. Other times you want to make a bee-line for the enemy that's about to attack an ally and get bonus damage in. It's sick! This is where Grandia combat shines!
... and p'much all of that falls to the wayside because magic has infinity range. You have these decent sized battlefields that your characters don't utilize much while casting magic standing in place... and because of it this elegant battle system basically turns into the bog-standard RPG experience of characters standing there, basically stationary, using their magic on enemies that are also just standing there because they are stunlocked by magic spam. It's tragic."

>>3979918
I like FF4 boss fights more than CT.

>>3978592
I've played a few hours of 5 and don't understand the SMT combat hype.

>>3980617
What difficulty are you playing on? It's the most fun on Expert because you will get destroyed if you don't manage your Press Turns efficiently, so you have to plan through every round almost like chess.
If you're already on Expert, maybe the combat just isn't your thing or you'll like it better when there's more complexity and customization later in the game.

>>3980638
I was playing on normal I'm pretty sure. It may be just the early game nature of it all because it was was just the demo, but I wasn't getting all the hype. I didn't hate it generally (though the generic overworld mobs had way too much hp. They're not hard, just a slog) but it didn't stand out as special either. I may give it another go at some point

>>3980617
>>3980638
I was going to ask something similar. I'm surprised that OP who likes Emerald Beyond responded so strongly to SMT V. I played about 40 hours of SMT V on release and was not particularly impressed. Did Vengeance change the game substantially as far as combat goes? I've liked previous SMT games but that was because I enjoyed the combination of atmosphere/story/dungeon crawling. The world and dungeon design of SMT V was not to my taste and I felt like I got through every fight just spamming weaknesses.

>>3980687
>Did Vengeance change the game substantially as far as combat goes?
BEYOND substantially. The original game had a problem where levels factored too heavily into the damage formula, so being one or two levels higher would make you nearly unbeatable.

Vengeance reworked the damage formula, so levels don't matter as much and you have to strategize in order to win now.
Also, Vengeance gave each demon its own passive skill called an Innate Skill that works like the Abilities from Pokemon, so it's a ton of fun to build your team around your Innate Skills and strategize. Even some of the early game demons like Muu Shuwuu are now OP in the endgame because of their Innate Skill effects. And you have to pay close attention to the enemies' Innate Skills, or you might trigger them and give the enemies an advantage (example: If you attack Nozuchi with anything it resists, it counters with an instakill)

There's also an alternate story mode where the characters are more fleshed-out and your ending is based on your decisions throughout the game. Dungeons are still lacking though.

>>3980716
Ahh that makes a lot more sense, I thought it was really just an alternate route/story changes and some more content. Maybe I'll give Vengeance a shot then. I suppose that's what I get for buying an Atlus game on release.

File: i love you alex jones.png (1.8 MB)

Etrian should be considered, especially 5.
There's a Canadian fauxjrpg roguelite called Star Renegades that has absolutely awesome combat that is a mix of Emerald Beyond/Scarlet Grace's and Octopath's shield economy. It is fairly middling in everything else and has overly snarky late 2010s-early 2020s sensibilities (pic related is the writing at only mild quirkiness). Definitely worth a pirate.

>>3978595
So basically you have to take the central progression mechanic out of levelling out of it. Not very good as an RPG combat system then. Also the games are so focused on damage that only half the movelist will actually be used in the campaign, and shit like stat boosting moves or entry hazards are only used outside that.

>>3981074
Make a meme theme team and play high difficulty rom hacks

File: SMT IV Apocalypse_06.05.26_00.55.46.581.png (176.2 KB)

>>3978592
But IVA gameplay is better.
Smirk is a much more well developed system than Magatsuhi skills.
Nevermind bosses having that irrelevant Magatsuhi skill you know how to protect against.
The demon fusion system is much more thorough and the MC affinities being equipment is less cubersome than the essences.
Plus the partner system that opens up for strategies.
I also liked having in battle choices to tilt the battle into either side's favor.
Also having to buy the +1 affinity for skills is more annoying.

>>3981074
i'm separating the combat system from encounter design and balancing. the system was designed around the link cable and really shines in pvp, but at the end of the day the games are made for children so you need to heavily self restrict yourself to make things fun
there's plenty of well made romhacks that show you can make a compelling single player experience with the progression intact.though

>>3978592
>jrpg
>combat system
It's just menu masturbation, there is no good jrpg combat system

>>3981108
You like deck builders, don't you?

>>3981125
no. i like traditional card games. drafting is the closest i get to deck builders

>>3981138
Oh, I don't even know the difference, I meant stuff like MtG.

>>3978592
Final fantasy 12 then 13, xenoblade. The question is, what's your favourite jrpg combat system. The answer to that is the correct answer to your question. Some guy will quote me and tell me how FF12 combat is shit because the other game that he likes best is shit. I played 10 when I was a kid and had to force myself to end because of how boring it was, someone else will disagree. Fuck, some other post died for your low effort bait shit post.

>>3979918
>>3979992
Both of those games only have a couple bosses that require you to engage with them instead of attack and heal spamming
Demon Wall is at least funny

>>3981117
then get lost ,shitposter tastelet.

File: 1766493623330.jpg (92.3 KB)

>>3978595
Singles combat is fucking snorefest compared to those jarpigs. No fucking way Pokemon singles combat feels better than any of those games and this is coming from a pokefag (that plays more than just pokemon)
Doubles in harder romhacks is where it kinda start to feel like a proper jarpig combat but still not something i put on same level as SMT/Saga/Octopath

>>3978593
FFX basically plays itself. No matter what you do by the end of the game your characters are unstoppable killing machines.

File: Balan Wonderworld.webm (2.7 MB)

>>3981490
>FFX basically plays itself

even more so than FFXV?

>>3978592
Infinite wealth

>>3978598
>Vagrant Story
The only game that could get better through a remake. Maybe romancing saga 3, but rs3 is pretty much a demo and not a game.

>>3978878
It's 0/10 and I'm very generous here

>>3981490
You're thinking of FF12, but you're still wrong

>>3978592
Always liked xenogears martial arts & ff7 turn based/materia systems

>>3982559
No, he's not wrong, FFX is on rails and the entire combat system is RPS where the optimal character is always there to switch in for the correct enemy. It has an insane encounter rate too for how boring the fights are outside of some boss fights.

>>3982459
do you have an actual reason for this beyond "waah mommy there's a brown in it"

>>3982624
please go back to /v/

>>3982619
>entire combat system is RPS
RPS?

>>3982657
Rock Paper Scissors
Japan absolutely loves janken and it's fundamental to many of their video game systems.

>>3982663
How is it like "rock paper scissors"

>>3978592
Final Fantasy IV through IX and Chrono Trigger
Grandia series
Trails series
SaGa Frontier
Press Turn
>>3978595
I agree with Pokemon being high too. For this thread I'm thinking in terms of the systems themselves, not the balancing. Pokemon's system very clearly becomes interesting against other players and in some postgame content, as you point out. So the combat system is great even if you can get through the main game over leveling one pokemon and repeating the same few attacks until the end.

>>3982628
no, the person who should go back to /v/ is the chud

>>3982671
Lulu's magic against Flans/Elements
Auron against armored foes
Rikku against mechs
Tidus against Agile enemies
Wakka against fliers
Yuna's Overdrive spam against bosses

>>3982697
Lulu beats fliers too, but what do fliers beat?

>>3982716
TFW you’ve lived to see the day that someone doesn’t even understand what “rock paper scissors means”

>>3982721
Yes, that FFX hater guy has remarkably low IQ

>>3982671
Seconding.

>>3982697
not really RPS at all
you can find these elements in WRPGs as well

>>3982671
Enemies have clear weaknesses to certain attacks. See enemy=pull out character and one shot them. The battle system is just recognizing what palette swap mob pops up and switching to the character that trumps it.
How do you not understand this?

>>3982721
>>3982737
Okay, so let's untangle this miscommunication:
Analogies aren't foolproof. They're not arguments. They're there to foster a missing understanding. So let us understand:

So the enemies in FFX are emblematic of RPS insofar that just like, say, paper hard-counters rock? Rikku stealing from a mech hard-counters the mech. The main criticism being that every combat encounter is like a little puzzle, but because you can readily identify the appropriate counter to the enemy's formation by simply looking at them? Having to wait for the combat to finish, or if there's a double in the enemy ranks meaning you have to wait yet some more for that hard counter character to get their turn again causes the combat encounter to feel like a slog, a small slog, but a slog nonetheless. That adds up over an entire campaign and it's not a great feeling.

The enemies in FFX aren't like RPS insofar that usually the enemy trash mobs don't have a way to hard-counter the player, and you really wouldn't want them to either because the enemies are supposed to be just a little bit of resistance. They're not supposed to be significant walls that take too much time, too much resources, or require a lot of spam healing afterwards because that, too, starts to feel like a slog.

There's this "Goldilocks Zone" that needs to be hit where the rando enemies offer enough of a challenge that they're not boring and the player has to think a little bit as they conduct the combat, but just a little bit, but also not be too challenging to be annoying because the enemy refuses to get out of blocking the player's progress.

>>3982995
Okay, so let's untangle this miscommunication:
>Analogies aren't foolproof
Translates to
>I'm low IQ and used an analogy that doesn't apply
>but hear me out

>>3983019
He's not the one that made the initial RPS post, I am. But, it seems he knows exactly what I meant because he's not pedantic and unable to communicate.
Unlike you.
lol

>>3983026
I think you found a new friend to play with! Go on, you rascals.

>>3983019
No it doesn't translate to that, if it "translated" to anything it is that the prussian-styled education system has failed us all on purpose.

1. So to start, there is no such thing as an "analogy that doesn't apply." On some level, everything is comparable to everything. Period.

2. The only "perfect" analogy is to compare a thing with an exact duplicate of itself. So if I had an apple and compared it to yet another apple? Some obtuse, double-digit IQ, dunning-kruger can pipe up and point out that there are indeed differences between the two apples and thus claim the "analogy doesn't apply." The only way to stop that outcome is to compare an apple with a clone of itself.
But what would be the point of comparing an apple to an exact clone of the very same apple? If you already knew what apples were, then I'm just stating the obvious for no reason. If you didn't already know what apples were, how in the world would it benefit you for me to tell you that this apple you have no knowledge of is similar to an apple you yet still have no knowledge of?
So it is FUNDAMENTALLY IMPOSSIBLE to make an analogy that one cannot turn around and say "doesn't apply."

3. And of course the person who wants to say "false equivalence" would even more greatly say that if the comparison was between apples to oranges. And yet, AND YET, if the person still didn't know what an apple was, but did in fact know what an orange was? Making that analogy helps to foster an understanding to help bridge that gap of ignorance. That doesn't mean people are saying citric acid and malic acid are precisely the same, but when someone doesn't "get it" after being told a thing? Perhaps they might better understand by being told a different thing that has *SOME* similarities.

That's why they're not arguments, and it's stupid to have an argument over an analogy because, ultimately, all you've really said is, "I don't get it," or "I'm purposefully being obtuse in a bid to annoy you."

>>3983050
Still going on about the failed analogy. Wonderfully low IQ.

>>3983054
Country's free. I'll speak about analogies as much as I please.

>>3982624
The brown isn't a problem. Personally I'd like a non token character. Rs3 is a great game and has harrid and he looks pretty brown to me.
Whta I dislike is that they constantly run back and forth. It's much worse than standing still and hitting the air. It brings a dynamic that doesn't improve anything. The country girl and cat are bad, too. All in all it looks much more childish than snes games. Was it a success? I really might play the rs1 remake, despite the bobbly heads.

>>3983050
Good post.
Pedantry is a sign of a limited intelligence or someone who doesn't really want to have a conversation at all. It's an easy trap for nerd men who go online to vent frustration and resentment to fall into.

>>3982917
>Enemies have clear weaknesses to certain attacks.
Yes, plural, multiple weaknesses, and enemies can be dealt with in more than one way.

>>3978592
Hajimari no Kiseki

>>3982619
You could've just said you don't like RPGs.

>>3983119
Hey, if you have to position your preferences as foundational to cope with criticism, then I can't help you with that.
But, I do like RPGs and I've played hundreds of them.

>>3983362
>hundreds of them
You could have at least choosen a believable figure. inb4 "I was just being hyperbolic"

>>3983369
I've been playing RPGs for 40 years, anon.

>>3982457
Nah, it's still shit.

>>3979152
Yeah timed hits don't really belong in turn-based combat, rhythm games are a completely unrelated genre. At that point just make an action RPG probably?

>>3983397
>40 years
>doesn't know the genre fundamentals

>>3978735
This is some dragon quest 2 type shit

>>3983425
Are you really crying this hard about someone calling FFX combat mostly braindead? Trust me, this isn't fundamental.

>>3983438
I couldn't care less about what you think of FFX. It's the fact you don't understand why RPS doesnt work as criticism. Even if we were talking about WRPGs (which we weren't) it would still be a nothing statement because weakness systems are so universal that it's disingenuous and reductive to even make the comparison. Calling FFX combat braindead when it requires you to actually be aware of which character is good at what and what abilities you've unlocked on who instead of just spamming attack is also laughable so of course I'm going to ridicule you as a poser.

>>3983451
Weakness systems, especially to the egregious degree of FFX where the enemies are mostly instantly recognizable palette swaps and adapting to your party composition isn't a thing, aren't ubiquitous across the bestiary of many RPGs. I think a poseur is you and your posturing is mostly predicated upon the emotional reaction you're having to a game you like being criticized. Nothing else makes sense to me.

>>3983478
>Weakness systems, especially to the egregious degree of FFX where the enemies are mostly instantly recognizable palette swaps and adapting to your party composition isn't a thing, aren't ubiquitous across the bestiary of many RPGs
This statement is so irrelevant it borders on absurdity. Saying that there are multiple games that don't follow the trend doesn't refute the trend and says nothing about how FFX compares to the majority of games in the genre. It also ignores the point that the quality of said weakness system doesn't matter because the issue was that comparing it to RPS is a thought terminating cliche with no room for nuance.

>>3983522
The point of comparison to RPS is to indicate how boring it is, how simple the decisions are. Maybe you find RPS satisfying but I don't. Besides a trend of stupidity isn't an excuse for stupidity.

>>3983478
NTA, but your RPS arguments don't make any sense. I just admit you're just too smart for me. I know your IQ is over 999 and you only play "good" WRPGs. Other RPGs (and JRPGs) are bad.

>>3983534
The decisions are only simple if you remove all context and are some guide fag that knows everything before hand. Don't even bother with the palette swap argument because there are more than enough cases where variants have completely different weaknesses and even counter intuitive ones.

>>3983549
Odd post. Are you trying to make this a "WRPG" vs. jRPG thing?
>>3983552
I'm pretty sure I never once died and I didn't use a guide on my initial playthrough. You run down corridor areas and kill mobs, switching into the correct character for the type you face. Even the leveling system is a linear path. I do think that it gets a little more interesting towards the end of the game, but by that time you're so powerful that it's kinda meaningless.

>>3983594
>Odd post. Are you trying to make this a "WRPG" vs. jRPG thing?
I'm saying this because WRPG fans are the one who likes to denigrate JRPG quality, believing WRPGs are superior (with no actual proof or argument).
That said even if you are not one of them, my previous statement that you replied to still stands