PoE 2

Vtm:R

>>3982188
Planescape Torment
Arcanum
NWN2 Mask of the Betrayer
Shadowrun Hong Kong

>>3982193
I played Hong Kong when it came out and it sucked ass. I'll finally check the others, since I was too young to play them when they were new.

>>3982188
Persona 4

>>3982188
read a book instead

>>3982212
Video games are superior medium to books, it's just that video games are in the hands of psychos and faggots.

>>3982188
Betrayal at Krondor

>>3982195
Don't bother, I can already tell from your shit taste you're not going to enjoy the others.

>>3982188
>it's a NWN mod
A Dance With Rogues.
and https://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn1/module/gate-silver-key-old-version

>>3982188
it's just motb and pst, there really hasn't been any movement since. I'm fond of AoD and Disco Elysium too

>>3982212
I swear the people that say this don't read books because they've romanticized them way too much, books don't have drastically better writing than well written games, nor do movies. it's the same shit where there's 99% dogshit slop and a few gems, books have just accumulated more gems because of time. I say this as someone that's spend more time with books than any other artistic medium

>>3982197
Unironically this. Persona 3 and 4 have an amazing atmosphere.

>>3982264
I was being sincere. For example the way the Izanagi/Izanami allegory with Dojima and his wife works was light years past most videogame writing. I don't have that kind of appreciation for 3.

>>3982189
All of their games has dogshit writing.

>>3982242
Demon heart was fine too until they moved to dumb slideshow novel.

File: the-legend-of-heroes-trails-in-the-sky-gallery-1440x3088-v0-cgvkax735f871 (1).png (1.7 MB)

I'd say the first three Trails games have the best story, it's just a shame about the other eleven.

>>3982229
People are allowed to not like things you like anon

>>3982188
Lost Odyssey

SMT: Strange Journey's story is somewhat basic, but its presentation is top notch. Compared to a lot of RPGs, there's not too many other games that marry story, atmosphere, and mechanics to a similar degree.

Although commonly played, FF7 and FF6 both have interesting stories. FF6 does suffer from being on an early console that has size constraints, and FF7 can get a little convoluted, but both could be considered the pinnacle of the series, with maybe FFX's story coming close.

One thing a lot of people probably won't mention is that MMOs that have been going for over a decade usually have a very developed world that can be interesting to immerse yourself in. FFXI/XIV, WoW, EVE Online, all of them are something you could really dig into and learn about all sorts of interesting things that happened through their histories.

>>3982188
>the absolute best written RPGs in existence
>Planescape: Torment
>Mass Effect 1
>KotOR I and II
>VtM:Bloodlines
>Mass Effect 2 and 3
After this point new suggestions are stretching it but technically can fit in when strictly adhering to its writing quality and nothing else:
>Cyberpunk 2077 but never install the DLC and stick only to the main story and a couple of the sidequests
>Witcher 2
>Star Wars the Old Republic but none of its expansions or later content updates, only the vanilla experience (its an MMO technically though)

>>3982809
>KotOR I
8/10 bait

>>3982188
Disco Elysium.

>>3982832
Name a better rpg than KotOR I that I haven't named. Closest thing is Dragon Age, which I probably should've included the first two in my list, probably just under Mass Effect 2 and 3.

>>3982907
I get saying you like Kotor because you want to run around with a light saber and chop stuff up, but praising it for its writing is completely asinine
You're serious, aren't you? I thought this was clever bait. This fucking board

>>3982919
Most people who praise the writing are really praising the plot twist, because it's at least a little interesting.

>>3982919
>Did not offer a game with better writing that wasn't included already in my list

>>3982809
So you judge a game's writing entirely by the dialogue?

>>3982922
What kind of question is that? Is this a thread for how a game is written or how a game's narrative is designed?

>>3982920
mfw Koveras is really Sarevok in disguise

>>3982923
>I'm in the mood for some GOOD ASS STORY
Dialogue actually isn't very interesting in most RPGs that don't have interesting characters, especially the ones you listed like MEs and KotOR I where it's just shot reverse shot fake cinematic engagement. I'd put Alpha Protocol dialogue over all the MEs, because the characters are really shit in Bioware games.

>>3982924
Yeah, that was dumb, because who cares about Sarevok, he's not compelling in the least, just a Kurgan clone.
Having your own character be the bad guy is an interesting twist in an RPG. I'm sure it hits different for the countless people who played it while spoiled.

>>3982926
You're actually close to being right in that its all about the characters, though actual writing quality in their dialogue (and any descriptive text) has to flow well and be interesting along the way, depending on how the game is consumed (more reading like Torment vs more listening to VA like Mass Effect).

Since you've said that you dislike Mass Effect and KotOR's characters I'd invite you to give the thread some examples of characters and stories you do like, though citing Alpha Protocol above Mass Effect feels like some real bait.

>>3982930
I've already dropped my rec
>>3982218

>>3982951
Its more like a visual novel than an RPG as far as I remember, but okay.

>>3982953
Memory's a fragile thing apparently. Drink a lot?

>>3982970
Let this be a Betrayal at Krondor thread then, to recall old games forgotten. Tell us your favorite parts of it.

>>3982188
Baldur's Gate 2, Shadows of Amn + Throne of Bhaal
FFIX

>>3982989
FP exploration, interesting characters, word puzzle chests, world building based on a set of novels, dungeon crawling, tactical combat. rotating party roster, serviceable prose. Worst part is the awful digitized developers in costume as character sprites and I wasn't a fan of the battlefield perspective. You should play it.

>>3982188
Xenogears

>>3982263
Absolutely, books like Brothers Karamazov, Faust, Divine Comedy or Moby Dick are extremely rare, maybe 30 or something, and games like Xenogears/Xenosaga are in no way inferior to these works, if not for their incomplete execution, which however is something that often happens in other media as well, such as Kafka's The Castle, one could argue whether being unfinished in that case can paradoxically amplify the themes of the work

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>>3982193
Shadowrun sucks ass dude.
>>3982192
The premise is very cool, and I don't hate it but I wouldn't consider it the best. It's a very specific character you're playing, and a lot of the things side characters do with him don't exactly make sense.
>>3982212
Don't worry people already suggested Planescape, and Arcanum.
>>3982809
Cyberpunk sucks. Kotor 2 sucks. Mass Effect 3 sucks, and 2 is slop.

>>3982876
Boring commie slop where you wander around listening to gay communists talk about how you should be a gay communist in various stupid voices.

>>3982188
Kenshi. Though you have to want to be a bit of a archeologist, and find out what happened to this strange place. System Shock 1, and 2 if you want something a bit more traditionally told. KCD, just don't play the second one. Henry dies of dysentery on the way to deliver that letter, the gay doppleganger is nothing like him.

>>3983024
I did play it but what I played doesn't sound at all like what you're describing.

Also, I mean your favorite story parts. A favorite character or scene, something related to the OP's post about story specifically.

>>3983052
Your opinions are stupid and bad, it'd be better off if you don't share them

File: Lisa the pointless.png (957.8 KB)

Lisa the Pointless

>>3983056
NTA but most of the stuff he listed is objectively correct. You may have played Return to Krondor if you're remembering something else? I can barely remember that beyond it not being as good as Betrayal.

BaK's is literal good writing rather than good story. It's got very competent '90s fantasy novel writing, like early Wheel of Time. It doesn't have brilliant allegory or poignant themes or foiling or something, but it's got good evocative descriptions of a wedge of cheese or a whetstone.

>>3983056
I think you're confused then, because that's the game.
I don't like spoiling games in recommendation threads, I listed those elements to make you realize you don't remember the game correctly.

>>3983074
Oh shit, yeah its Return that I played, looking at the box art now that was definitely it.

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>>3983024
>awful digitized developers in costume
While the graphics are from the 90s and it shows I like the developers in costume interpreting the characters. Want to see more of that.

>>3982189
Seconding Deadfire.
But Kingmaker and Rogue Trader are good, too. Wrath is an extraordinary game, and its writing is consistently extremely good. I just didn't have any "wow" moments while playing it where I felt like some particular passage of text was masterful. In Kingmaker, there's moments with companions like Harrim, Jaethal and Valerie where I really felt like their personal development was amazingly well done. In Rogue Trader, the sheer weight of the florid baroque / rococo styling was impressive.

>>3982919
God, shut the fuck up. Your kind if so fucking insufferable. No one is allowed to like anything you don't like, apparently, because you're such a fucking authority on everything. And of course it's all just trolling and bait or what the fuck ever your fellow infants are calling it in the nursery. Coping mechanisms for your crippling social dysfunction. You're so fucked up you literally cannot have a sincere or authentic experience for fear that someone else might call it cringe or mock you for it.
Fucking kill that body. You aren't even really alive, much less a person.

Torment and Krondor are the only one. Everything else is generic fantasy/sci fi tropes copy pasted.

>>3983129
>and its writing is consistently extremely good
Except not. Games dead starting chapter 4. I read the adventure path and wth did owlcucks improve the laughably bad source. Nowadays they should be fantastic with all the ai help.

>>3983052
>>>>>>>>>Kenshi
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>well written
What is it about this game that causes its fans to recommend it even when it's completely irrelevant to the conversation at hand? I understand it's meant to be a very good game, but you don't recommend Vivaldi when someone asks for Jazz just because he's good.

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>>3982327
I've found Trails incredibly bloated and annoying. It takes them an entire arc of multiple games to achieve what Suikoden would do in a single game.

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>>3982989
>Betrayal at Krondor
can you imagine being the fan of the novel series only to find out next two stories would be in video game format instead? at least they eventually got novelizations.

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>>3983067
They are fact. Kotor 2 is purely trading on the name of the original. Cyberpunk is just LA with robot arms, it's awful. The writing is terrible. Shadowrun: Hong Kong is LA with orcs.

>>3983149
After the war the behemoths lost their purpose
Man became afraid of the destructive capabilities of its own creations

The irony is that it was their blind obedience and unquestioning loyalty that walked them down into that pit, entirely unresisting

The price of obedience.

>>3983102
>I like the developers in costume interpreting the characters
*monkey’s paw curls*
Baldur’s Gate 3, Halsin

>>3983131
I genuinely hope that you get help and that your life improves and you stop feeling this way, anon.

>>3983102
No, hand drawn sprites are vastly superior. Look at how ugly Lands of Lore 2 is compared to the first game. Digitization was incredibly lazy.

>>3983256
Lands of Lore 2 sucks because they put no effort in the art direction. Betrayal at Krondor looks good, so does Gabriel Knight 2 the Beast Within and it uses the same technique.

>>3983287
No.
Digitization was fucking lazy and gimped sprite work in the West.

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>>3983302
The fuck you saying retard, sprite work and digitalization developed alongside fine.

>>3983287
Westwood also did the best sprite work, inarguably outside Japan. Even setting aside the god of sprite art Rick Parks.

>>3982263
More well-written books come out in a year than do well-written video games.
And it should come as no surprise that
[a writer] [writing] [writing]
is going to have a higher hitrate than
[one or many sometimes-writers] [writing] [a modular component of a video game]
This latter part especially introduces ludonarrative hurdles that books simply don't have to deal with. The notion that all mediums have the same opportunity of writing outcome and some aren't just naturally more suited to producing better writing is about as ludicrous as suggesting Afghanis are just as good at making cars as Germans.

>>3983355
*rather than sprite work I mean pixel art

>>3983349
>The fuck you saying
I'm saying when devs moved from sprite work to digitization it was an aesthetically inferior product. Is this unclear?
The examples were already given, including Gabriel Knight, and I'll add Police Quest and Wing Commander. It was a common thing in the 90s, devs chasing tech.

I take it you feel differently?

>>3983356
The biggest difference is that games aren't a medium, they are an expressed system of play. Radically different than art.

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>>3983361
>it was an aesthetically inferior product
Hard disagree especially for Betrayal at Krondor and Gabriel Knight. In fact Gabriel Knight 2 is the best looking of the trilogy and the one most fondly remembered.

>>3983363
Video games at the abstract are a storytelling medium the same way books and film are, and they can be used to tell stories or not, just like those other mediums. It's just that most games either don't bother to tell stories, like Pacman, or leave it to the player to interpret stories out of gameplay (so-called emergent storytelling), like Dwarf Fortress, or have "story" as a module of the engine that exists primarily to facilitate gameplay, like Ubisoft games, or decorate gameplay components in such a way as to enable passive storytelling for flavor, like Fromsoft games. But there are also games that seek primarily to tell a story, and their other systems are designed in service of that, like Planescape Torment and Disco Elysium. Probably things like Persona and Blue Reflection too, although JRPG developers are really bad at designing interesting gameplay so maybe I'm considering them story-first by process of elimination.

The one advantage games have over other mediums is that their interactivity aids immersion, but this is offset heavily by having to coordinate all the systems of a video game that other mediums are just easier to produce high-quality stories in, which in itself is another biasing factor because people move toward what is easiest.

>>3983388
>Video games at the abstract are a storytelling medium the same way books and film are
No, that's an adding a narrative medium into a game, video or acting or the written word. It's extraneous, so you can't call games a "medium" in and of themselves. Video games aren't simply communication, they are play, interacting with systems of rules in a way where the player creates meaning.

>>3983200
>Kotor 2 is purely trading on the name of the original
But KOTOR 2 is generally considered to have the superior story and gameplay??

>>3983382
>Gabriel Knight 2 is the best looking of the trilogy
No, the first game is way better looking.

>>3983391
Nigger did you read anything I just said? Whether you're adding words to a game or a game to words is the distinction here.

The story is an important component of RPGs, however fixating on the writing in particular is tilting at windmills. Games were better when the story and writing were there and serviceable, but the more they focus on trying to have great writing, the further they stray from the overall point. It generally results in the writers crawling up their own asses and producing pompous drivel that detracts from the overall experience, rather than enhancing it. Virtually all cRPGs from the last 10-20 years suffer from this. When the writing is breaking immersion from cringe, it’s no longer serving its purpose.
I think that it stems from insecurity about “video games as art” and trying too hard. See also: the frequent comparisons to books, movies, etc.

>>3983394
Hard disagree.

>>3983398
I did read it, though it's a bit of a ramble. I prefer conciseness.
The "game" is what you get when you strip out those extraneous mediums.

>>3983411
It's okay to be wrong. The handcrafted backgrounds, character design, and graphic novel style of the first game is far better.

>>3983414
The first game is uglier, anon. All the fans care about is the second game, with good reason. Deal with it.

>>3983404
>cringe
Arbitrary mood swing derived from upbringing and potential mental illness that should never be used as a real criticism. It's on the same level as talking about "pacing".

>>3983423
>The first game is uglier
Nope.

>>3983412
No, what you get is gameplay, which is not what a video game is because video games are multimedia.

>>3983428
Yes.

>>3983356
>More well-written books come out in a year than do well-written video games.
Not at all, there's not even one good book a year.

>>3983363
braindead thing to say

>>3983447
>gameplay
You mean the way you play a game? Yes, that's called the game.
>>3983472
Whatever helps you cope.

>>3983480
>games aren't a medium, they are an expressed system of play, radically different than art
so this is incorrect in at least 3 ways.
1. what you described would qualify as a medium
2. what you described is not radically different from art as many installations are interactive
3. what you described does not cover the breadth of video games

>>3983480
>Yes, that's called the game.
it's not, video games are a gesamtkunstwerk, a game is the totality of its components.

>>3983482
1. No, a medium is an art term.
2. Wrong. Games are collaborative, the player has agency within the purpose of the game that goes beyond mere interpretation.
3. Examples.
>>3983485
No, a game is a system of play. I'm talking about the essential here. Games aren't art, they are much more than that.

See, play>art.

>>3983492
You are retarded and use words in ways nobody else in the world uses words.

>>3983503
Yeah, you've probably never encountered someone saying what I'm saying, so you can't grasp it because there aren't the training wheels of your presuppositions supporting it. It's not a perspective widely shared, but to call it retarded is very childish.
What's the "message" of chess? of tag? of Tetris? of D&D? What do you do when you play them? How does that change depending on your own skill at the game?
Be aware that what you answer will most likely be post-hoc rationalizations that simply reflect your worldview. They won't touch on the essential nature of games. Art is communication, games are more than that and a "game" that focuses on message is less of a game, its composite nature dilutes it. A game is something that you increase your mastery with, not to illuminate a worldview.

>>3983511
>you've probably never encountered someone saying what I'm saying
I didn't mean that as a compliment.

>>3983523
I know, you're a creature of consensus. Trust me, I fully get you.
See, I never respected Jack Thompson or thought video games caused violence, they aren't a medium or a message unless you gimp the game part, they are games, an essential and foundational aspect of humanity which we play with for the sake of play, to interact with those systems that comprise them.

>>3983492
Art can be collaborative you know

>>3983528
What skill does collaborative art test? How do you win in that contest?

>>3983529
>What skill does collaborative art test?
Depends on the art.
>How do you win in that contest?
Games being an interactive medium does not inherently stop them from being a medium and art.

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>>3982188
>if it's from the 80's
It isn't.
>from Japan
It definitely isn't.
>or if it's a NWN module
LMAO.
Pic related.

>>3983535
>Games being an interactive medium does not inherently stop them from being a medium and art.
Art is communication, games are games. Communicating with a game makes it less of a game because the message is prioritized over the game systems.
It's okay to like games, games are an essential foundation of humanity, separate from mere art.

Why does RPGs attract pseuds who think they are the smartest in the room? How do those pseuds can even claim that without proof?
Is it just their delusion of being smart?

>>3983548
Anon, art is any form of creative expression. Art can be communication, but it can also be beauty, skill, and emotions, all of which can be done without messaging.
A man does not paint a picturesque vista and plants a message in it. He can, but is by no means required.
'Games' both video and board are as much art as everything else. Hell, I'd argue anything we do with a degree of passion is art.

>>3983563
>beauty, skill, and emotions, all of which can be done without messaging
What the artist finds beautiful is a communication, skill is an appreciation of the craft, and emotions are surely communicable. The communication can be between the artist and himself even "This is what I see!".

But following this then games certainly aren't art, because they have a purpose, to be played and play is its own verb. Games are their own thing and they even predate art. You simply think art=good human activity, which is pretty much a vestigial Enlightenment value in the move to make art as an expression of humanistic excellence, but when it's applied so broadly it slips into meaninglessness. Don't drag games into that as well.

>>3983427
I'm not that anon but other than the subjectivity of what makes a person cringe, it is a valid feeling to have regarding the quality of media as it denotes the ability to tell when something is unworthy of consuming and integrating.

>>3983542
>or if it's a NWN module
>LMAO.
>Pic related.
Witcher 1 was literally an NWN module

>>3983588
>Witcher 1 was literally an NWN module
Not really, better to call it a NWN total conversion, I mean it added rhythm game combat to that engine.

>>3983598
Barely, once you look at all the game's cutscenes from that point of view though it starts to become really obvious

>>3983586
I am that anon. Much like obscenity, I’m old enough to know it when I see it.

>>3983551
i don't . i think the /vst/ autists are smorter than moi.
except the kommunists. they must be purged.

>>3983551
>Why does RPGs attract pseuds who think they are the smartest in the room?
The genre for insecure shut-ins. I can read a guide, grind, savescum, and have my power fantasy without any effort or competency.

Chads play competitive and team games. RPG nerds compete on who has the best "taste" in RPGs.

>>3983692
What if one does both? I've always both loved the power fantasy of RPGs (at least the ones from 15 years or so ago like Mass Effect and Dragon Age and one or two newer ones like Rogue Trader) and also enjoy (an admittedly few) competitive games that I'm good at.

>>3983492
>1. No, a medium is an art term.
no it isn't. a medium is a type of media, are instructional videos art? they're certainly media.
>>3983492
>2. Wrong. Games are collaborative, the player has agency within the purpose of the game that goes beyond mere interpretation.
so are books and film, you need to actually have people engage with art regardless of what it is.
>examples
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helena_(artwork)
>a game is a system of play
it doesn't have to be, nor have you made any groundwork to establish why that would be non-artistic.

>>3983548
>Communicating with a game makes it less of a game because the message is prioritized over the game systems.
except video games art not restricted to your narrow definition. a walking simulator is just as much a game as pong.

>>3983896
>a walking simulator is just as much a game as pong

>>3983904
>greentexting an on-its-face true statement without adding anything

>>3983920
>an on-its-face true statement

>>3982188
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: Ring of Fates

>>3983588
Nobody mentioned Witcher 1, champ.

>>3982189
I actually agree with this.
The combat was meh, but the story was cool and there was a lot going on.

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>>3982188
Barkley: Shut up and Jam Gaiden