Thread #7905287
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when people say "just draw" this is why
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A 7 y/o I know drew this, unprompted, spontaneously, honestly. I took a picture because I thought it was cute. So why is this so hard for /ic/?
>bu-
You haven't done this in literal years, have you? An honest drawing, because you felt like it. A drawing that made you happy.
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Sure, an expert may not be able to teach well, but what about someone who is both an expert and is somewhat talented in teaching?
The expert may have blindspot, but the teacher would not.
Regardless, I think saying that an expert has blindspot in how to acquire the skills and talents to reach their level, and there the experts advice has no value... is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Regardless, "just draw" is still the best advice, but your reasoning behind why that is, is retarded.
If you want the best result from your workout, you speak to a fitness coach, or study up on a good routine.
Likewise, if you want the best results from your drawing study sessions, have a teacher, or a good book to help with that routine.
Just mindlessly drawing, or mindlessly exercising, will often bring suboptimal results.
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>>7905287
This is real. But amateurs who pretend to be experts while being unable to answer questions with any specificity are just as likely to say "just draw."
"Just draw" and "just draw this way/just draw it again" are not the same advice.
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THERE IS NO FOOLPROOF WAY TO TURN A BEG INTO A GREAT ARTIST
IN THE 2000 YEARS SINCE JESUS DIED NOT A SINGLE PERSON IN HISTORY STARTED SHIT AND STUDIED THEIR WAY TO PRO.
YOU NEED A CREATIVE SPIRIT AND THE NATURAL ABILITY TO FEEL THE FORM.
JUST DRAW MEANS TO JUST DO AS MUCH AS YOU CAN AND HOPE YOU HAD IT IN YOU THE ENTIRE TIME
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>>7908849
>a 7yo is already too intellectually advanced for the average autist here
>/ic/ has lower cognitive abilities than a 7 year old
Oh no, he's already forgetting things he's said, he's dementing! Don't worry my retarded little friend, we're all here for you.
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>>7908896
Sure, if that's what you want, let's just do a quick fanfiction (though mostly a faithful adaptation) recap of our conversation so far. Enjoy.
>You: Everyone on this board is retarded.
>Me: Does that include yourself?
>You: Like this guy above!
>Me: So you don't deny it! Hello my fellow retard.
>You: No, you're the only retard here.
>Me: But you said this board is full of retards, which includes you?
>You: You're retarded and mad!
>Me: It's okay my fellow retard, shh shh, it's all okay.
>You: I-I-I'm not mad, YOU ARE! AND EVEN IF I WERE MAD, POINTING IT OUT IS A RETARD INSULT!!
>Me: ??? But you just said earlier...
>You: REEEEE STOP MAKING THINGS UP! I'M NOT OFFENDED!!
I must say, our friendship has been a bumpy one so far! I wonder what twists and turns will test this friendship in the future?
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>>7908929
>literally making things up inside his head
>Aren't you going to write more fanfiction about me?
It's the fanfiction you asked for, you silly retarded and dementing goose. I must say, I didn't expect you to lower the age of your insult by one, that's quite the twist. Don't worry, our friendship maintains!
Don't worry, no matter how much you spurg out, or how mean your words are, our friendship will persist! I'll always be in your heart.
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>>7908788
>This is not new.
It is. They only draw IPslop because they're creatively bankrupt by the time they can hold a crayon. Fucking deep fried in the brain. They can't even think of something original or creative. When I was a kid I drew shit I saw in cartoons but also a lot of random I came up with. Kids now only draw IPs they don't even watch
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>>7905855
I don't have time as an adult to draw "honestly" i have to make money. All jobs are inherently dishonest because you are doing it to get paid and would rather just take the money for free. I enjoy drawing, don't get me wrong, but i also need to eat and pay rent. If that 7 year old had to draw a sonic that was good enough to prevent his parents from divorcing, then we'll talk.
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>>7909249
I assume you enjoy your job more than you would other jobs, because it's an art job - so I don't see how that could be seen as dishonest.
I think the whole line of arguing that 'mindless drawing' is somehow more honest than drawing with reason and intention behind it is stupid.
Cool, the kids doodle when they're bored in class because that's all they can do to entertain themselves - this is honest compared to someone who intentionally chose to draw when they could be doing other things because...?
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>>7905287
If you want real advice, you have to pay me
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>>7909959
>nobody uses the critique board for critiquing, what are you, retarded??
crazy how people admit to not using the board for it's indented purpose and dont get banned but i get a warning for making an /ic/ meme, funny how that works
reminder that /i/ exists if all you want to do is post your artwork
>b-b-but nobody uses it!
exactly
that's how little people actually care about your art
people come here to learn how to draw, not look at your artwork, nobody cares
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>>7909964
BTW "critique" isn't about masters teaching begs it's something actual artists do to help each other improve.
It's pointing out mistakes so they can be fixed. How you go about fixing them is your own business and no one's gonna hold your hand.
Ain't nobody got time for howies who don't know how to hold a pencil.
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>>7909975
Again, if you're here, either you're giving critique or you're receiving critique. If you refuse to give critique and you're not here to give it, why are you on this board?
Don't answer that, I already know: /ic/ has more eyeballs than /i/. Because you want more people to actually see your artwork, you maliciously post artwork into the critique board as a ruse to get compliments with no intention of taking or receiving critique.
You making a dumb fucking excuse about people not being able to hold a pencil is giga low-iq and shows you don't put much thought into the fucking garbage that piles up inside of your brain.
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>HURRR Y U NO POST WORK????
porn "artists" come here to advertise
if you're not shilling your subscribestar dog nigger porn page there is no reason to post content on 4chan
the only result is you will 1) waste time engaging with potheads, shitskins and trannies 2) train the AI spambots flooding the site 3) get doxxed or stalked by the local mentally ill autist
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>>7910049
couple years ago posting this (factually true statement) would've gotten you 10 million butthurt replies
now this has become so obvious not even the autists and the pornfags can attempt to disagree to damage control
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You can't "just draw", you are limited because what you draw has to have good composition, say something interesting, include something you care about (which is passion/soul) and it needs to be somewhat original. There's only like ten different compositions that are even worth using and maybe a hundred unique poses. When you draw one, you can't draw anything even close to it if you enjoy drawing, you'll want to do something in a completely different direction, so your choices are even smaller.
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>>7909952
>he unironically got psyopsed into believing "free education" will carry him to any mastery
Lol, I almost feel bad for you
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>>7905287
teaching is underappreciated because people blindly regurgitate "those who can, do. those who can't, teach" without understanding that the original quote is from a book by bernard shaw (maxims for revolutionists), which itself is basically a collection of cynical, borderline comedic satire on human nature.
the reality is that teaching not only requires foundational knowledge of a particular topic, but it requires communication skills and, more importantly, a lot of time and patience for the pupil. that time could be spent pushing your skills further. "just draw" as a phrase lacks both time and patience; while technically true, it's too short and meaningless to the beginner because it lacks procedure or insight, but it's very easy to tell to a pestering newb because you're a busy artist with things to do. it's callous, but what else is there to say when you're busy and the questions being asked feel like they could be answered with self-study?
generally, talent is a beginner's ability to take initiative on a topic and self-study to a point that mentorship is less of a burden on the would-be teacher. people aren't born learning how to draw or play an instrument or write epics, but someone willing to dedicate their own time to working through all the absolute basics so that they're easier to teach will be called "talented". some people are intellectually gifted, obviously, but they will still need to make the first few really bad drawings as anyone else. the main difference is how quickly one learns from their own mistakes, and intelligence can play a major role in self-critique and pattern recognition, vital in self-identifying your own flawed work and which direction to move in to improve. that said, anyone can draw.
tldr learn better self-critique and self-study. teachers are a valuable resource, but their time is limited compared to someone younger, and the more they dedicate their time to teaching you, the less time they have for their own work.
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>>7910590
>that the original quote is from a book by bernard shaw (maxims for revolutionists), which itself is basically a collection of cynical, borderline comedic satire on human nature.
I didn't know this, thanks for sharing.
I have a problem with this though:
>it's very easy to tell to a pestering newb because you're a busy artist with things to do
Particularly when we're talking about /ic/.
Let me explain.
Why does the /ic/ board have so many users?
Is it because people here want to view other people's artwork?
This isn't very likely as /ic/ isn't a very good place to find and view artwork, at least compared to other places like ArtStation or DeviantArt or Instagram or Twitter.
So if it's not to view others artwork and appreciate it, why do people come here?
Simple.
>People come to /ic/ to learn.
So when someone says, "yea, I'm not going to waste my time teaching beginners," on a board where the vast majority of users are here to learn how to draw, it shows you have ulterior motives for being here. You're not here to help this large number of users that want to learn how to draw, you're here for your own self-masturbatory reasons. You want to stroke your own ego by posting your artwork and have people compliment on them.
My point is that if you come to /ic/, it's to learn how to draw or to teach others to learn how to draw. When you deviate from this, you're deviating from the exact reason that 99% of the usres even come here for. You don't provide any value and space is wasted to accommodate crabbing and negativity when people should be helping each other out.
IN my opinion, I believe that majority of users on /ic/ lack communication skills. This is to be expected. We're on 4chan after all, never forget. This is why 99% of /beg/ "advice" is just calling people retarded and telling them to quit. It's incompetence in teaching coupled with severe autism.
I believe I can teach quite well but whether it will be worth doing so on /beg/ is yet to be determin
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>>7910621
>I have a problem with this though
fwiw that wasn't a thought, it was an attempt at sarcasm, implying artists are always "busy" with the "things" being intentionally nebulous. the following about callousness was more an elaboration on this imaginary would-be art teacher's train-of-thought, but poe's law, etc. i'll admit it wasn't obvious.
people's willingness and capacity to teach varies. it's okay to post here and seek outside critique, and it's also okay to seek out a mentor, but respecting other people's time and what time therein is required to dispense their knowledge is the pupil's end of the bargain. self-critique allows you to formulate better questions. "there are no bad questions" is a comfortable idiom, but people reserve the right to not answer if they feel you haven't "done your homework" so to speak. asking about specific techniques and giving context for how its relevant to your own work or, even better, SHOWING your own work after watching a mentor work is different from empty-handedly asking them "what pen/program/software do you use" with the same assuming tone as someone expecting that the tool begets the output and not the techniques/knowledge.
all this being said, everyone's different. some have near-infinite patience for their students, and i have the utmost respect for these people; they're self-sacrificing to ensure the future is brighter. others, to put it bluntly, "have other shit to do" and you shouldn't take personal offense to someone telling you to piss off.
lastly, all critique is valuable, even bad critique, because it teaches you how to recognize when someone is clueless or is giving you critique in bad faith. hiding posts you fundamentally disagree with has been a feature since the sites inception, and the better you become as an artist, the better you get at seeing who's both never held a brush in their life and thinks they're raphael. ultimately, your own taste should dictate the advice you implement.
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>>7910647
>but people reserve the right to not answer if they feel you haven't "done your homework" so to speak
This I don't believe.
Not that people who are competent have this right but that people on /ic/ are competent enough to have the ability do critique.
Being on here for nearly a decade has taught me that the ability to teach is far rarer than the ability to draw. Do you see how many people can draw well? Not that many. Take a minuscule fraction of those people and those are the ones that can teach well.
The likelihood that this significant fraction is anywhere on /ic/ is so low it's safe to say it's impossible to find on /ic/. Again, I'm specifically mention this website in particular. I'm not talking about pro artists outside of here whose time is actually valuable and have knowledge--even amongst those, only a tiny fraction can teach.
Critique is also easy to give out to those who are already competent at something. That doesn't require teaching ability. Certainly not at the level required to teach absolute beginners. I am of the belief that it has nothing to do with lack of disinterest but rather lack of ability.
Just because someone can draw well doesn't mean they can teach drawing well. Look at Kim Jung Gi, as an example. He wouldn't be able to train a beginner how to draw because he's not skilled enough in teaching to be able to do so. But he can certainly teach someone who's already pretty good at drawing on how to hit the next level. That's because that doesn't require much competence and patience.
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>>7910548
IM NOT A SCHIZO
BAD DRAWINGS TAKE JUST AS LONG TO DRAW AS GOOD DRAWINGS
GO TO THE REF THREAD AND SEE HOW PEOPLE SHIT ON REFERENCES AND ATTEMPTS AT USING THEM
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>>7910654
>Not that people who are competent have this right but that people on /ic/ are competent enough to have the ability do critique.
to be short: there are people plenty competent enough anons still browsing here, some only recent residents and others having been here 15+ years, that post or lurk on this board and have historically given exceptionally good critique. /dad/ in particular has plenty of anons that still post here anonymously and have large bodies of impressive work. there's been multiple professionals that have come and gone from here that still pop their head in.
believe your stance at your own peril. exposing your work to the disproportionate upside "risk" of critique, especially in an unvetted anonymous forum, will always has a luck factor of having the right person see it at the right time. this goes for any public display of work, digital or otherwise. anonymity comes with its own complications and downsides, but one major benefit is giving people a platform to discuss things as brutally honest as affordable. whether their honesty is useful is highly variable, but you're in control of whether you want to listen or not.
>Being on here for nearly a decade has taught me that the ability to teach is far rarer than the ability to draw. Do you see how many people can draw well? Not that many. Take a minuscule fraction of those people and those are the ones that can teach well.
>The likelihood that this significant fraction is anywhere on /ic/ is so low it's safe to say it's impossible to find on /ic/.
believing this tells me you don't see value here. leave then. i get that. leave if you so choose. plenty of professionals and hobbyists alike have, including anons on /dad/ that only post on the dad site now.
>Just because someone can draw well doesn't mean they can teach drawing well.
i think this is something we can both easily agree on.
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>>7910707
>there are people plenty competent enough anons
I admit that my wording wasn't the best.
I meant competent enough to critique /beg/, not incompetence in drawing. Just because you can draw well doesn't mean you can teach and being able to teach /beg/ is a unicorn skill, basically impossible to find. That's why 99% of discussions just end up with blaming the student rather than the teacher reiterating their point (which is only something a highly competent teacher can even do).
>brutally honest
There's a difference between honesty and maliciousness. Most advice given on here is done out of malice. Again, I've been here for almost a decade, it's pretty fucking rare that good advice is actually given. Perhaps they're in the more advanced threads but in that case, that just proves my earlier point about anons not being competent enough to teach beginners, which is my point. Teaching someone who is already good at drawing isn't much of a skill. Almost anyone can do that. Teaching beginners however, now that's fucking hard. It fucks your ego up and makes you realize you don't actually understand drawing as well as you think you do. That's why anons on here get so uppity and defensive whenever they deal with /beg/. It exposes their own incompetence.
>you don't see value here
I don't. That's precisely why I'm here.
Figuring out how to break /beg/ out of /beg/ is something I'm doing as my own personal project. I believe that if I can take multiple /beg/s out from there and good enough to participate in the general /draw/ threads, it means I can reliably teach drawing to anyone, a skill that almost no one has. Not that I plan on making money from it but that's also a possibility as well. It's highly unlikely that I can't make money from this skill if I actually do manage to get the average /beg/ out from /beg/. Might be a pipedream but whatever. All in all, I'm just doing it for fun. Learning how to draw is more interesting than actually drawing in my opinion.
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>>7905287
I'm tired. I want to draw but its like climbing a mountain. I just don't have the strength in me to do advanced mathematics and physics (construction) plus rigorous creative brainstorming (composition). I just want to be happy without having to grind for it for once in my life. Why should I work hard and draw just to experience fulfilment when other people don't have to?
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>>7905287
I remember seeing this in action on /ic a few years back, where a beg in an art class was struggling with a still life, and people were suggesting he study perspective or whatever, when it was painfully obvious that he did not know how to draw what he sees. A lot of skilled artists probably developed this skill instinctively when they were young, and don't realize that this isn't obvious to later in life artists, and that it's entirely possible that said skill will never just come naturally to such artists and that they will always have to prime their brain and rely heavily on measuring techniques in order to accurately draw what they see. People who start drawing from a very young age naturally develop a core competency on which more advanced techniques can be built, while people who didn't start seriously drawing until their adult years will require an extensive training wheels period before they can gain much value from technical instruction and "justdraw"
Basically, I think some art instructors approach teaching art like teaching a language class to a bunch of teenage native speakers, as opposed to how one would teach a second language to adults.
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>>7910774
>Basically, I think some art instructors approach teaching art like teaching a language class to a bunch of teenage native speakers, as opposed to how one would teach a second language to adults.
Pretty good analogy.
I've often thought about how drawing as an adult is kind of like being an ESL. Trying to learn from artists who are already good is like asking a native English speaker how to learn English. They can certainly make shit up (/ic/ often does) but they're not going to improve unless someone who actually did the work themselves can show them.
That's why I'm a bit reserved on the idea that you have to be an "expert" at drawing to teach drawing to beginners. Plenty of so-called experts out there but not enough good advice for beginners.
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>>7910581
99% of the time yes you retard kek, thats why its called a psyops
being able to afford good tools like an expensive cintiq and private school programs with real time feedback will make you closer to anything you want to make in 1 year than 20 years of online free "education"
enjoy some more youtube tutorials begtard kek
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>>7910621
>My point is that if you come to /ic/, it's to learn how to draw or to teach others to learn how to draw.
That's a lovely idea in theory.
However, this is not a formal setting, for better and for worse. The amount of learners here questioning everything with disbelieving indignation contributes as much negativity to this board as the obvious trolls, the worst of whom probably got that way because they feel others owe them all of their time and were ignored, and carry embarrassing one-sided grudges for years. (Case in point >>7909327)
Everyone's amount of participation here is voluntary. Those who do not grasp even the simplest concepts covered in the plethora of books and study guides in the sticky, and refuse to consult them first, cannot demand or expect greater investment from others. They themselves have made no investment. That's asymmetric.
For those lacking mental acuity, there will seemingly be an infinite number of "cognitive steps," and no amount of handholding will seem sufficient. Those who get confused by contradicting advice have simply not tested them and made a judgement for themselves. They too have made little investment.
What this board does best is filtering people - people who refuse to put in the effort, who are not analytical, who do not listen to authority, who lack discernment, who want things easy and fast. Frankly, for every bad "teacher" here, there are 10 bad students (and 20 trolls). Your notion of what this place should be will forever remain an idealistic hypothetical, as there are no incentives to promote it, and no consequences for those who deviate from it.
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>>7910774
>draw what he sees
/beg/ here. What the does this mean? I try to avoid symbol drawing and I get the picture down as accurately as I can. That still doesn't mean I "understand" what I'm looking at, I just see the lines and copy them verbatim. For some things I copy them often enough that it becomes easier to copy them than other things. Is this "drawing what I see" or is there something deeper to it?
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>>7910621
>>7911615
One last point.
I am reminded of this anecdote associated with Goodheart's Law: the most successful surgeons are not the most skilled. They simply choose patients who are most likely to survive surgery.
It is this way with teachers as well. No one wants to deal with remedial students.
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>>7911618
there are two complementary ways to draw, one is to draw by copying the flat shapes you see onto the canvas. it's how most atelier painters achieve realism. the other way is construction which is more useful if you want to change things, manga artists draw that way. so reproducing the flat 2D shapes or reproducing the 3D forms. they are not exclusive methods since good artists use both.
draw what you see means being able to disregard the 3D form you think you see, in order to copy what your eye is actually registering. when you want to look at an umbrella, you want to think about the volumetric shape of the umbrella because your brain wants to do that, but your eye actually sees a flat shape that looks different depending on the angle.
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you can't go from bad to good. You need to have it in you already, aka potential and atlent.
That's just a hard truth about most creative endeavors. If you're struggling, its because you lack talent. Good artists never struggled as hard as you did, the world is not fair.
That said, you can still overcome the struggle by improving within your level. You can draw without struggling or stressing.
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>>7911367
the idea that artists """"work hard"""" is funny to me
artists never do anything they dont feel like doing, the only ones who are good are the ones who felt like doing it more than others
i see too many pussy artists out there that crumble at the slightest bit of criticism to really believe that any of them work harder than anyone else in any other skill
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>>7911615
>>7911620
As I have stated in a previous thread, "teachers" avoid specific students because they themselves are incompetent at teaching.
It takes a great deal of competence and patience to train a beginner in virtually any field. Drawing is no different. Maybe even harder to train beginners than any other skill. Thus, what you see is not teachers choosing students because, "their time is worth more" or some other nonsense, but because those people genuinely DO NOT lack the competence needed to teach beginners.
Again, being able to teach beginners requires an extremely high level of competence. Both in teaching and in understanding the subject you are teaching. Most artists DO NOT analyze drawing. They simply draw a lot and figure things out through grinding. That is the MAJORITY of artists.
This is why you get situations where you just assume people are lazy when they're simply confused. One resource says one thing, another says something else, then Anons who are good at drawing give them some other advice. It's because all of them DO NOT know what they are talking about.
>Just because you can draw well doesn't mean you can teach it.
This is something you end up learning after trying to learn many different skills. It's often the ones who are the most competent in drawing who are the least competent in teaching it. They never sat down to analyze WHY what they do works, it just does.
It's exactly the same as people who are native speakers of English trying to ESL students.
It would be a waste of time.
The native speakers DO NOT remember or understand English concepts.
They have internalized it. They do everything subconsciously.
This is the same for the artist.
He does nearly everything subconsciously.
So when he tries to give advice, it's as useless as an English native speaker giving English advice to an ESL.
That's lack of competence. You can try to frame it in a way that helps you cope but it is simply lack of competence.
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>>7905287
if "just draw" isn't enough for you, you are essentially too stupid to learn anyway and any advice would be lost on you. most artists start drawing before they can even stand up. they spend their entire lives making art before they're even conscious of any desire of making art. they didn't have to be taught the basics, they just did it
"oh but I need someone to explain to me that I should draw what I see!"
yeah, no shit, you fucking idiot
sit down, pick up a pencil, draw a line, draw a bunch of lines, does it look like the thing? then you drew the thing. does it not look like the thing? guess what, motherfucker, you did not draw the thing, erase the parts that do not look like the thing and draw them again
jesus fucking christ
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>>7911630
Loomis is construction, not about drawing what you see.
This is why it's a bad resource. It skips too many steps and immediately jumps to construction before taking care of observational skills first.
>>7911903
>>7911952
>Good artists never struggled as hard as you did
Absolutely true.
And I know this is true because when it comes to writing, something I have been told I was good at my whole life, I never struggled.
Writing came easy to me. It's not that I sucked at the beginning but that I liked it so much, I didn't care that I sucked.
Compare this to the average adult who tries to learn how to draw and doesn't have that talent. THEY WILL STRUGGLE. And learning to draw will suck. It's just a fact of life.
Yes, absolutely, a lot of the really good artists never really struggled. They just drew a lot because they liked doing it and eventually drew enough to get good. That's absolutely a thing that happens and don't let anyone try to gaslight you into thinking that these really good artists were pulling their hair out trying to improve. That's simply not the case for most good artists.
>>7911965
>>7912021
No, again, the idea that artists just:
>put their nose to the grindstone
is just false.
This is true for an extremely tiny minority of artists.
Most love drawing and almost never struggled to learn it.
Again, I know this because I've been told my whole life that I could write well and not a single time have I felt the amount the suffering required to learn to draw as someone who lacks natural ability in it.
>>7912671
I understand your frustration. Being told you're incompetent at teaching drawing hurts. But you mustn't let it effect your ego. It's okay that you're not competent in every discipline of drawing. It's just that teaching beginners requires great competence and patience. Something most artists don't have (as clearly shown in your post--is this what the zoomers call a "crash out"?). Don't worry, you are still loved even if you can't teach.
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>>7905287
Define goal.
Choose book that gives you tools to pursue goal
Everyday:
Do 30 mins of drawing diagrams, exercises and note taking on book.
Do 30 mins of study of reference/masterwork using what you've learned from book
Do an hour of a project of your choosing, something that relates to goal.
Reflect and apply what you know you have to
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