Showing all 78 replies.
>>
>>
>>
>>50975428
>I can't deny the two Mizuchi's thing is lame af.
Hope that it's just a red herring to throw readers off and not some forgotten twin/split-personality/dream self nonsense.Mima bros, how are we feeling?
>>50975173
Yeah, seems awfully hypocritical and selective of Reimu in that regard. I guess the only actual rule is that you can get away with this kind of shit if you're a cute girl.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>50975173
Fortune Teller turned himself into a youkai.
Mizuchi was the victim of youkai.
Fortune Teller shunned the kayfabe and tried to weasel out of a fight.
Mizuchi did things the Gensokyo way by throwing down.
Fortune Teller threatened one of Reimu's few vulnerable, human friends.
Mizuchi threatened mostly youkai.
FT fucked up, pure and simple.
>>
File: image.png (1.7 MB)
>>50976544
>Mizuchi was the victim of youkai.
She was the one who was butthurt about the current state of Gensokyo and had an axe to grind with the Hakurei. Her fate of being turned into a dismembered pool of blood courtesy of Yokai was just a natural outcome of the choices she made herself.
In fact, her first near-fatal skirmish with the Yokai should've clued her in that the new status quo of Gensokyo that the current Hakurei then were building towards was actually the ideal way to minimize casualties and destruction. But hilariously enough, she went the other way and opposed the Hakurei and even started attacking fellow humans
>>
>>
>>50976678
- Gensokyo was a shithole where Humans and Yokai were in a bloody free-for-all
- During said shitty era, Mizuchi was a Hakurei clan associate that got checkmated in one of the skirmishes against the Yokai
- Suika steps in on a whim, decides to test Mizuchi's resolve and offers her a choice on whether to get killed or join the Yokai side of the conflict
- For reasons that are presumably 50% not wanting to die and 50% being butthurt about the Hakurei, Mizuchi decides to join the Yokai side
- Mizuchi takes up the role of being a traitor and starts attacking fellow humans for a period of time, entering a state of Yokai corruption herself
- The Hakurei finally broker the current peace terms that present day Gensokyo now enjoys. Yokai are now forbidden from recklessly and openly attacking humans, and humans are obliged to completely stay out of Yokai affairs
- Mizuchi kinda got fucked as a technicality because she's not exactly fully human anymore and thus is exempt from the peace terms. And the Yokai that are mad at the new status quo presumably took out their frustrations (and hunger) on her.
tl;ldr
Mizuchi is a moron and if she stayed with the Hakurei (who Mokou later recalled were explicitly trying to get her to make amends with her and come back peacefully), all this nonsense would've been avoided.
On a side note, the manga actually giving a more openly grim view on how Human-Yokai relations used to be makes Rinnosuke look even more impressive. He was already alive in this shitty era, so the fact that a half-blood shitter like him lived through it means that he's far more capable than he lets on, or is just really dumb fucking lucky.
>>
>>
File: image.png (1.5 MB)
To be fair to her, Mizuchi did end up caught between a rough and a hard place. So you can't completely blame her.
But all these revelations made Suika come off as someone with more alien morality and arguable evil dickishness. Like yeah, she does have principles and holds up agreements she gets caught up in, but man she is kind of a dick about other things. People put up Seiga as haha evil meme woman, but Suika is up there too.
>>
>>
>>
>>50976727
What do you mean? Other than the last part with the whole muh-halfway yokai technicality whereas I'm more inclined that Mizuchi got turned into a mist of blood because Yokai are simply assholes. The rest of the stuff are things spelled out pretty clearly in the manga.
>>
>>
>>
File: 8.png (956.4 KB)
>>50976753
>90% of filling blanks
Some stuff are implicit without being said out loud.
- Gensokyo used to be a shittier place than it is now <- Stuff already established in the series lore
- Mizuchi being a Hakurei associate <- Literally said in the manga
- Suika's join us or die ultimatum to Mizuchi <- Pic related
- Hakurei brokering the new peace <- The current peaceful kayfabe that Gensokyo enjoys speaks for itself and the line in >>50976725 which implies that the Oni may not be 100% happy with this arrangement. Though I guess you can decently argue that the Hakurei may not have been the one that spearheaded the new laws of Gensokyo, which is fair.
The only thing I'm calling 100% bull on the stuff anon claimed is like I said, the angle that Mizuchi may not even be fully human anymore and hence why the Yokai felt free to kill her (which is also another plot thread tied to Marisa for years, but we all know at this point its never gonna get properly followed up on).
>>
>>50976769
>>50976770
Let me elaborate then. I will keep headcanons in (*)
-Gensokyo wasn't really a place back then. We know for a fact that it was just some rural part of Japan where youkai needed to retreat because at that point they were already being pushed out of more civilized/advanced areas. It being "bloody free for all" is pure speculation/headcanon.
-At certain point Hakurei decide to strike deal/truce with youkai which clearly rubs Muzichi wrong way. Why would they do this is completely unknown for us.
-At certain point Mizuch is attacked by youkai and "saved" by Suika. Suika leaves he in situation where she can be easily "unsaved" and pretty much forces her to go with oddly elaborate plan for some reason. We have no idea why they hell would Suika do that or what was her motivation.
-Mizuchi pretty much copes and goes along with that because she really has no other choice , acting tough to Suika (and possibly trying to rationalize that reigniting conflict can stop the Hakurei deal, in the end we can assume that at that point she was in pretty shitty place emotionally)
-We have no idea what she really did, and what "attacking" really mean.If she was actually killing them or just scaring them is unknown What we know she got caught red-handed by Hakurei memebers who gave chase. The whole thing about her turning into youkai is extremely far-fetched both with the fact that you dont turn into one just by shanking someone while wearing bedsheet and by the fact that she became vengeful spirit after her death (which pretty much confirms she was still human). All examples of humans turning into one had far more elaborate and long process. This isn't chaos in WH, there is no youkai corruption that turns you into one like that. Otherwise literally every bandit/highwayman would turn into one.
-She gets ambushed by Youkai and Suika when running away, she once again copes towards Suika and then gets killed by them. (Her dialog with Suika pretty much disproves that she willingly became a traitor but rather was trying to still achieve her own agenda.) (This is where the story gets weird because once again its incredibly elaborate way to gather couple dozens of youkai just to kill her. Its seems that Suika really needed her dead for some reason).
-Some time after being killed Mizuchi comes back as veng spirit and start wiping out Youkai. Old Hakurein Maiden rushes to confront her and whatever happens results in her sealing her.
>Mizuchi kinda got fucked as a technicality because she's not exactly fully human anymore and thus is exempt from the peace terms. And the Yokai that are mad at the new status quo presumably took out their frustrations (and hunger) on her.
This one is pretty much completely a headcanon.
Now for a bit of personal speculation.
The entire story has some serious flaws. For one, Hakurei negotiating peace with Youkai make no real sense. At that point Youkai are on their last legs and create gensokyo as we know it as last ditch effort to save themselves.Why would Hakurei need to negotiate peace with them at that point is hard to imagine without lots of speculation. Perphas Yukari rolled natural 20 on charisma check and bullshitted them well. Or they went 'No hunter without prey" angle and decided to strike that deal to preserve their position in another world. In any ways ZUN clearly didnt want to elaborate on that so we can only speculate.
Another thing is how weird are all of Suika interaction with her. It feels very odd she would require her to do such a specific (and seemingly meaningless thing since any regular youkai Suika commands could simply attack humans more often) without there being a very specific reason for it. There is also a lenght that Suika goes to clearly prevent Mizuchi from talking with Hakureis again proves that there had to be alot more to that then "lets become a youkai lol".
My personal guess is that Mizuchi was super unlucky of being a perfect person to weaken/push Hakurei shrine maiden into much weaker position. All events around Mizuchi were simply way too specific to be random shit done by disgruntled Suika. I wouldnt be surprised if it was used to sever ties between Hakurei and Miyadeguchi, and possibly even cause a schism in Hakurei itself.
Mizuchi does seem like a both pretty dim person and someone who clearly lacked impressive spiritual power so we can assume she was just unlucky to possibly be too close to important person. I think almost everything that happened to Mizuchi was pretty much aimed to force that Shrine Maiden of Hakurei to go along with Youkai plan.
>>
>>50976819
cont
The core issue with her entire story is that there simply is no real reason why Humans would want gensokyo to exist and help with its creation. The fact that Hakurei needed to throw a healthy population of humans (who very clearly couldnt be willing since it operates on both fear and lack of understanding) makes it feel like a very shitty "greater good". Not to mention the fact that Hakurei very clearly were reduced from clan into person (and we know that at least shrine maiden before Reimu was also very likely a single)
Sorry for autistic post anons. Its 4am and i really shouldnt be sprerging over it.
>>
>>50976678
You and most people here (probably most people in the fandom) 99% of the time when CDS comes up people just make the funniest shit up.
>>50976707
iirc when the rule of youkai not attacking humans was set isn't really clear but it makes the most sense imo where you put it or some time before.
Also I'm not sure if Mizuchi got attacked also because of going against said rule. Trying to incite once again letal conflict between youkai and human, as per Suika's interests.
>>50976827
>Gensokyo wasn't really a place back then
Some odd technicality going on there...
>It being "bloody free for all" is pure speculation
True, anon's wording is a bit funny, but youkai and humans where in "bloody conflict" in the past.
>Mizuchi pretty much copes and goes along with that because she really has no other choice , acting tough to Suika
Funny wording considering the pic on top of you. But could be, I guess.
>We have no idea what she really did, and what "attacking"
Anon used the same wording as the manga. But maybe it could sound weird/too violent to someone who hasn't read the manga tho.
>This isn't chaos in WH
???
>All examples of humans turning into one had far more elaborate and long process
>Otherwise literally every bandit/highwayman would turn into one.
Ichirin though, she mostly got hated for hanging out with Unzan(and stopping him from being a murderous youkai) and ended up becoming a youkai without knowing.But nobody cares about her ;_;
Marisa also gets close every now and then without any conscious action on her part. In pre-barrier Touhou/Gensokyo being an outcast puts you humanity at stake.
>ambushed by Youkai and Suika
>because once again its incredibly elaborate way to gather couple dozens of youkai just to kill her. Its seems that Suika really needed her dead for some reason
Reading the page(including the mini speech bubbles in the dark before the youkai appear) and considering Suika leaving they don't really seem associated with her.
>>... Yokai that are mad at the new status quo ...
>This one is pretty much completely a headcanon.
Repeating myself but I think they went against Mizuchi, precisely because she tried to stir up conflict and make it look as if the youkai did break their part of the agreement.
>why Humans would want gensokyo
>Youkai are on their last legs
World wide? Yes
For the humans in Gensokyo? Not really, if a few could potentially kill Mizuchi(Youkai exterminator, strong for a human according to Suika)
>regular youkai Suika commands could simply attack humans more often
You seem to think Suika was commanding or could command the youkai. Any reason for that?
>Sorry for autistic post anons
> Its 4am and i really shouldnt be sprerging over it.
Eh, more interesting than most "canon" "discussion" imo. Haven't tried any in a long time since I deemed it impossible.
Hope you had some nice sleep when you read this anon.
>>50976770
>50976819
> the fact that she became vengeful spirit after her death (which pretty much confirms she was still human)
>The only thing I'm calling 100% bull on the stuff anon claimed is like I said, the angle that Mizuchi may not even be fully human anymo
>8.png
She is in the border of Human and Youkai going by her title and Suika calls her a youkai.
In Touhou everything is pretty vague and borders are blurry instead of things being neatly categorizable (Part of why canon discussion is hard).
And youkai seem to be implied to have an afterlife here and there (iirc Eiki lectures towards youkai mention crossing the Sanzu, going to hell and so on...).
So a "half-human" becoming a vengeful spirit doesn't seem too weird to me.
>>
>>50975165
Shitty underdeveloped character (despite having a whole ass manga dedicated to her retarded self).
The argument she was meant to represent was also undercooked and generally weak as fuck, as evidenced by the fact that she loses her conviction the moment she's defeated and Reimu just kind of says "no you're wrong though" (and argument that's obviously going to be underbaked when the fight fight manga didn't even bother to flesh out the villain's argument).
Facilitated a ton of retarded jobbing moments that just make Gensokyo as a whole look like a fucking clown show, especially the humiliating shit the manga did to Mokou and the Moriya crew.
Her backstory makes Suika look even worse and more spineless.
CDS was a complete disappointment. Weird that, for a manga claiming to be about Satori, Satori really doesn't fucking matter to the core stakes of the story. Her involvement is incredibly incidental and she's mostly just used as a device to push the plot along.
Mizuchi is meant to challenge what Gensokyo represents and what Reimu is defending. The issue is that Mizuchi's argument is never really explored and we never really see enough of the oppressed humans to get a sense for if Mizuchi or Reimu have any merit. Despite humanity being at the center of both arguments the manga itself gives zero fucks about the humans that live in Gensokyo outside of the humans that obviously aren't relevant to this argument. Despite Mizuchi wanting to kill Reimu or whatever it never really feels like anything meaningful is at stake, it's just a bitchy girl throwing a temper tantrum for several volumes. And several more volumes I guess because ZUN, genius that he is, decided we need MIZUCHITWO to be our next CDS villain. Amazing.
>>
>>50976707
>>50976711
The rest of Mizuchi's clan was wiped out, she probably would have been too if Suika didn't give her an out.
As much as I hate to defend Mizuchi, Suika giving her an ultimatum is hardly a real choice, and further the fact that Suika was too much of a coward to step in when the monster she created was targeted for being too disruptive for the new gensokyo really speaks more to how shitty Suika is.
>>
>>50977013
>she probably would have been too if Suika didn't give her an out
Mokou's recollection of that era said that the current Hakurei Miko was constantly chasing after her to give her amnesty. But she was hell bent on keeping up her agenda and kept running/pushing the Hakurei Miko away.
Remember that a lot of the past events shown in the manga were from her own biased lens clouded by her own butthurt.
>>
>>
>>50977077
That was specifically after Mizuchi became a spooky ghost. We see the corpses of the youkai that had killed Mizuchi, and the Hakurei Shrine Maiden "had to seal her" when she wouldn't listen to reason.
So the big take away is that Mizuchi only got sealed because she was being a piece of shit.
>>
The big take away from CDS is that if you find yourself in Gensokyo you should just become an evil spirit, because evil spirits exist above everything else. Youkai, gods, humans, everyone will fall to your knees so long as you aren't completely retarded. You can turn Gensokyo into your own personal h-scenario with the greatest of ease.
>>
File: 145139225_p0.png (1.3 MB)
>>50977077
>But she was hell bent on keeping up her agenda
An often forgotten titbit about vengeful spirits is that they are more a manifestation of the deceased person's anger, rather than the person themself. Expecting rationality from a seething clump of grudge would have been very naive of the Hakurei. Not to mention that vengeful spirits are rarely able to be heard by the living iin the first place, most of them being "wordless."
>>50976707
>- The Hakurei finally broker the current peace terms that present day Gensokyo now enjoys.
Small correction. Gensokyo's current "peace" is the result of Reimu inventing and enforcing the Spell Card system. This is a hundred years on from the events surrounding Mizuchi's death. Prior to that, Gensokyo was still chaotic and prone to a might-makes-right balance of power. What the Hakurei brokered back then was the formation of Gensokyo (so presumably the barrier) and their stewardship of the realm to the exclusion of other youkai-hunting clans.
The irony and needlessness of Mizuchi's death was that she had been coming around to the idea of preserving youkai, the goal of current Gensokyo, before those very youkai she'd been beginning to sympathise with indiscriminately murdered her as part of wiping the slate clean. This is why she turned into a vengeful spirit. From her perspective, she had been betrayed by those she'd been right on the cusp of siding with. Essentially, the "proved" her wrong in the moment, invalidated her burgeoning stance and reinstilled a "YOUKAI BAD, YOUKAI ANTI-HUMAN, HAKUREI BAD FOR AIDING THEM" viewpoint.
So yeah, like >>50977013 said, it's all Suika's fault. If she'd stepped in and defended Mizuchi, the latter would've bought right into the plan. Suppose she just expected Mizuchi to disappear permanently then and there, which, granted, was a viable solution as well.
>>
File: 1768860795255621.png (999.8 KB)
>>50977237
>Suppose she just expected Mizuchi to disappear permanently then and there
Her saying that she'll have to apologise always sounded to me like she knew Mizuchi would come back in some form, so she's saying she'd have to apologise later. Her opening a hole for Mizuchi to escape the underground from after the Myouren arc was probably a part of that.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>50977241
Suika's form of apologizing being "let a dangerous criminal with no interest in the formal dueling system of Gensokyo and who wanted to murder the person Gensokyo can't exist without out to wreck havoc" kind of just feels like Suika passing off the burden of what she did and making it everyone else's problem.
If Reimu isn't going to kill Mizuchi can she at least kill Suika? I know she won't, she's a hypocrite who only selectively enforces justice, but I wish she would.
>>
File: 1770341784437967.jpg (524.8 KB)
>>50978293
It feels very Suika-like for that to be her form of apology though. The way she sees it is probably "Mizuchi did me a favour by dying for me (and presumably taking the blame so Suika's role in the whole thing went undiscovered?), so I'll do a favour for her by freeing her from the underworld." I suspect that with Suika's weird sort of personality, she was also doing Reimu a favour by giving her a clearer chance to confront Mizuchi, but that's just speculation.
Suika's a thoroughly two-faced character though and if it wasn't for her introduction in 7.5, more people would probably have seen that from the start.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>50979615
She's already become more boring going into the new arc. She's following the Miyoi path of just becoming the bwuh girl while everyone else does the plot. Why'd she even run away at the start? She could've just stayed with Reimu (which is what nu-CDS should've been about) and had a rock-solid alibi for everything, but instead she disappears without telling anyone and sets off whole new suspicions.
>>
File: 1752381648942461.jpg (830.1 KB)
>>50979698
Mizuchi should go out and take matters into her own hands to prove her innocence. then, she should run into the spirit of the First Miko, who tell her that the second Mizuchi is the manifestation of her own guilt, and that she should make peace with herself
it would be so kino but since ZUN is a bitch, Mizuchi would end up doing nothing and we will never see the First Miko again
>>
>>
File: 1748177557442813.jpg (3.6 MB)
>>50980107
same
imagine Mizuchi hand in hand with her friend as they cross the Sanzu River
>>
File: Summer of 85'.png (172.6 KB)
>>50975165
She's so edgy I love her. I love the premise of a shrine maiden gone bad. I was a bit sad when she got defanged but her apparently being able to make evil duplicates of her is great. It'd be cool if Reimu forgives the nice Mizuchi and lets her be a shrine maiden again, but it's likely that she's just going back to old hell to be gay with Yuugi when the series ends.
My great disappointment is that there is a single not very good doujin of her possessing other girls to do lewd things. Possession is peak and not used enough by 2hu doujin artists.
better than Mima/10
>>
>>
>>
File: image.png (861.9 KB)
This is more or less the current Detective Satori thread, so one thing I'd like to comment on is that the manga kinda blurs the line between which fights are still spell card battles and which ones are just good ol fashioned brawls.
Reimu isn't fully incapable, but I imagine that in terms of raw physical ability, she pales below the typical Yokai. Like during the Myouren temple brawl against Flandre, Flandre dealt with Shou, Byakuren and Reimu rather easily like she wasn't even trying. The playing field only got levelled when Byakuren got serious and did some Dragon ball shit and pulled a nothing personnel kid roundhouse kick to Flandre afterwhich she proceeded to yeet Flandre out the temple so that they can finally start doing some danmaku spellcard shit.
Interesting to note is that Reimu's reaction to Byakuren getting serious in fisticuffs is a flabbergasted: "what the fuck just happened". Outside of Danmaku Spellcards or magic shit, Reimu is probably out of her field. If an opponent just decides to do things the good ol fashioned way, Reimu will probably go a bit pale.
Makes you wonder that if Meiling wasn't bound by spellcard duelling rules, modern 2hu probably would've ended at EoSD stage 3.
>b-but TH7.5 and it's successors!
They're still technically spellcard duels despite the fighting game format.
>>
File: file.png (1.4 MB)
Flanfags have been eating pretty nice the past few years at least.
For all the manga's failings, it counterbalances it by really giving Flandre a good showing.
- It confirms that Flandre isn't really LE CRAZY INSANE PSYCHO, just an edgy little shit of a NEET that's perfectly happy in her basement (she can leave any time she wants to, she just doesn't feel like it most of the time)
- She doesn't actively seek out fights, but if she does get into one, she's really in there to enjoy it the most
- It's more or less implied that the only reason why Flandre went out her way to go with Satori's plans and pick fights with people this incident is that she has a grudge for what happened to Patchy, showing the fondness she has for her family in the SDM.
Between her role in TH17.5 and Detective Satori, Flan really does come off as the more mature and capable sister compared to Remi. Flan knows she is a kid and doesn't really put on any airs of acting otherwise (but she IS far more cognizant and reasonable than the le crazy persona she maintains). Compare her to Remi the bratty haughty little shit.
>>
>>
>>50979339
>>50979142
So that was a fucking lie.
>>
File: 1754203349719758.jpg (1.0 MB)
>>50980384
the artist needs more time to draw my wife as beautiful as possible for her big debut, please understand
>>
>>
>>
File: 1754432253927258.png (1.0 MB)
>>50980499
Is it any wonder this manga can't build up any suspens, intrigue, or even much of a fanbase when it's got Berserk's release schedule with none of the quality?
>>
>>
File: 138115004_p0.jpg (2.5 MB)
>>50980499
What the fuuuck! Guys, I'm getting Mizuchi deprivation syndrome... AGAIN!!!
>>
>>
>>
File: HJJ4IvTbsAATLiv.jpg (125.2 KB)
>>50980137
would get kyouko/mizuchi double pregnant
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
File: 1752021016060695.jpg (171.5 KB)
>>50982161
that camisole was added to appeal directly to my penis
>>
>>
>>
>>