>>43840407
Oh also
>We oppose “the idea that sex & personality are somehow linked”, but also we believe that everyone to whom we assign a male sex is inherently violent, dangerous, predatory, sexually depraved, and misogynistic
>We oppose “the idea that sex & personality are somehow linked”, but we believe that behaviours to which we assign the label of “feminine”, when they are done by persons to whom we assign a male sex, are always inauthentic. We do not portray as inauthentic the very same behaviours when they are done by persons to whom we assign a female sex

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>>43840588
Forgot to attach the pic I’m referencing

OK two more and then I’ll dip
>We believe that sex is material, but also immutable, even though matter is inherently mutable
>We are materialists, but also we believe that conditions to which we assign the label of “mental” must never be treated by altering the body

>>43840407
Some people are just repulsed being or living as a gender that doesn't match their birth sex because it doesn't match their own residual self image. This feeling of repulsion can be so strong they project it onto others.

it's ok to be gay

>>43840689
>I’m too cowardly to directly state what I actually believe (which is that all trans people are homophobic), so I’ll post a seemingly innocuous sentence as bait

>>43840646
"TERFs are reppers" is an inaccurate meme. They just have a massive victim/martyr complex. Trans women ruin it for them by proving that being a woman can actually make your life better, and trans men ruin it by proving that if you hate being a woman you can stop being one. TERFs don't want to transition, deep down they don't actually have any problems that need solving. What they want is to bitch and moan, and then to be praised for how brave and strong they are for withstanding whatever it is they're bitching and moaning about.

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>>43840407
tru fax

>when you throw "gender isn't real" (based) and "men are evil" (cringe) into a blender it becomes contradictory
wow interesting

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>>43841315
GIGATRVTHNVKE
>>43841429
Yep. Sex essentialism is idealist pseudo-science
>>43841472
Gender is real. http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2013/11/what-is-gender-artifactualism.html

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>>43841774
gender is fake
julia serano is a self hating man

>>43841778
Shut the fuck up
Shut the fuck up

Another problem with TERFs is that they will often refuse to engage in discourse at all. Like, if you ask them to specify what they mean by “gender”, they won’t do it; instead, they’ll accuse you of being addicted to pornography, or something. They don’t even want you to understand their claims, they just want to verbally abuse you. It’s all so tiresome.

>>43841832
Or they’ll just repeat a false claim ad nauseam. They’re not interested in dialogue, they’re interested in dominating the conversation, by brute force if necessary, even if it makes them look like animals.

being transgender is homophobic

>>43841943
No, being transgender is not homophobic. The meanings that you assign to states of affairs do not inhere in the states of affairs themselves. Shut the fuck up.

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>Sex/gender transition is conversion therapy, even though no attempt is made to change who the person is attracted to
>There exists in the West a conspiracy to change the sex/gender of cis gays and lesbians, even though I can’t produce any evidence to support this claim, and even though no one in the West (except perhaps a few isolated weirdos with no institutional power—certainly no medical organization) values transsexuality above homosexuality
>All trans people who used to describe themselves as gay or lesbian before transitioning transitioned not because they really wanted to be a woman or a man, but merely because they felt pressured by their culture to transition, even though no such pressure exists in the West, and even if they vehemently insist otherwise. Trans people don’t transition for the reasons that they say they do, they transition for the reasons that *I* say they do. (Variant: this applies to all trans people, even ones who didn’t describe themselves as gay or lesbian before they transitioned.)
>All trans people are homophobic, even if they vehemently insist otherwise. Trans people don’t believe what they say they believe, they believe what *I* say they believe
They’re completely delusional and egocentric. It’s all so tiresome.

>>43842257
>even though no attempt is made to change who the person is attracted to
lol yeah cuz you are castrating them instead

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>>43842263
That’s completely irrelevant to this discussion, you stupid fucking ape.
There’s a difference between
>the state, with its monopoly on violence, forcing a gay man to choose between imprisonment and chemical castration, neither of which he wants
and
>trans people VOLUNTARILY electing to self-administer cross-sex hormones, a side effect of which is reduced libido, which is actually desired by some trans people
You lunatics conveniently ignore these differences because you don’t care if your claims or arguments make sense; you just want to endlessly repeat your ridiculous, nauseating, contrived anti-trans narratives.

>>43841923
>>43842319
It’s baffling that they don’t realize that they look like total retards when they do this
Either that or they do realize, but they do it anyway, which might be even more baffling, but I’m not sure

>>43842319
they aren't outright forcing gay men or lesbians to transition, just brainwashing them and heavily pressuring them into it

you are the conservatives trying to sterilize gays
I am a communist trying to free gays from oppressive bondage + gender roles

>>43842351
This is a conspiracy theory. It is false.
In actuality, you want people to have less autonomy, not more.
We will never take you seriously.

>>43842319
also you only get lower libido if youre getting nuked by blockers and hondosed. T notoriously makes pooners horny af and getting on actually good doses of injectable estradiol gave me the sex drive i never had.
>b-but muh reproduction!!
you wanna be a breeder in this hellhole we live in, sure, go ahead, but dont expect anyone else to join you in your delusions. being infertile is very convenient in all senses.

>>43842415
Yeah, why are they so obsessed with the fertility of people whom they assume to be homosexual, anyway? (This is a rhetorical question; of course we know that the answer is “they hate transsexuals for aesthetic reasons and they feign concern about the fertility of homosexuals in an attempt to justify their bigotry post hoc”.)
Also transsexuals can regain their fertility, if they still have intact gonads, simply by discontinuing HRT. That or some trans women might have to take Clomid, if I recall correctly. Only surgical castration is truly irreversible. So not only is their concern insincere, but it’s also irrational.

>>43842463
There is also the option of cryopreservation prior to starting HRT which elegantly sidesteps the issues that come with discontinuing HRT for a prolonged enough period of time for regaining fertility. In fact, that's what my wife and I are going for! :3

Also, while I agree that TERFs are inherently contradictory and harmful not only to trans but also cis women, I think we should always keep in mind that many of them end up where they are because they experienced sexualised violence at the hands of men. It's quite like with cults or manosphere grifters who prey on vulnerable people because they are easier to emotionally exploit. The cult is bad, the acts of its members harmful, but they work by instilling in their victims a sense of isolation; an artificial "us" vs "them", an enemy they focus their energy on that the cult protects them from. We should show these women that we aren't out to harm or ridicule them, that we empathize with their pain while being clear about rejecting their conclusions.

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>>43842763
I am out to ridicule them. I do not empathize with their self-inflicted misery.

>>43840407
you have to remember terfs are the evolution of misandrist feminists of old and those chicks werent exactly the best at logical discussion either

>>43842851
I have never forgotten this.

Amazing how all of this shit just boils down to the same misogynistic REEEing from MRAs 10 years ago. You will never change the fact that the entirety of human social history has been built on the fact that everyone is categorized and conditioned on the fact that they can either be presumed to either impregnate or get pregnant. Cherrypicking morons like JK rowling and posting literal strawman memes doesn't change that. And no, I don't think that's a good thing, it just simply IS. I wish it weren't, but it is. Gender did not spawn out of thin air based on nothing at all.

I wish the meme about MTFs being commies were true, because at least you'd all have a better material understanding of history.

>>43842921
Nope. Read the following:
Karl Popper, The Poverty of Historicism
Oyèrónkẹ́ Oyěwùmí, The Invention Of Women: Making An African Sense Of Western Gender Discourses

>>43842985
Karl Popper is a charlatan misogynist who abandoned Marxism purely because he got scared after cops shot people at a protest. And all of the attempts at outlining non-western societies which "had no gender" rely on language games, avoiding the central fact that society was still by and large organized around childbirth and child-rearing.

For example, the many academic attempts at appealing to the Native American idea of "two spirit" and other third genders, meanwhile it was the result of males who were too weak to hunt and thereby relegated to an inferior role. Ironically, trying to present such roles as proof of sex being purely constructed and historically irrelevant is transposing a patently western reflex over these people, and the vast majority of women from these cultures would not hesitate to tell you that you're making a mockery of their existence by erasing the significance of sexual difference.

In reality, cultures with more than two recognized genders tend to have no issue accepting the reality of sexual difference and feel insulted and patronized by people trying to use them like this. In fact most cultures outside of the west do not opt for a trans identity at all but instead a label that recognizes their sex and their unique social position, which is greatly preferred by them. Read interviews with Thai people who identify as kathoey.

At the end of the day all attempts to deconstruct gender like this are ignoring the (sad) human reality of sexual difference and the effect it has on both social organization and violence both ontological and physical.

>>43842921
>m-muh miwogyny!!!
Also
>prides itself on being "the pregnant" gender
>doesnt get pregnant

>>43842921
>can be presumed
Which doesn't say they either can or cannot. So a tranny passing as a female can be grouped with females, similar with a passing pooner among males
>muh kathoey!!
You tried reading anything from thai MTFs not IDing as such? Mainly because this role was used to delegate trannies to abuse and prostitution?

>>43843125
You missed the entire part where I said it is sad that this is the case. I consider it a travesty. But it is what it is. I resent the fac that sexual difference exists and everything is downstream from it. But my resentment doesn't make it any less real. I am resigned to it and try to minimize its effect on my life. Unlike you, apparently, who's actively distraught over it because it apparently poses a threat to everything you believe. It doesn't have to be this way nona. I'm not even transphobic, and I do consider trans women women. Not that I want a cookie for it, but it IS a social class. But that social class did spring from the material circumstances of sexual difference.

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>>43843055
>Karl Popper is a charlatan misogynist who abandoned Marxism purely because he got scared after cops shot people at a protest.
Argumentum ad hominem. Whether this claim is true doesn’t enter into whether Popper’s critique of historicism is valid.
>all of the attempts at outlining non-western societies which "had no gender" rely on language games, avoiding the central fact that society was still by and large organized around childbirth and child-rearing.
Oyěwùmí’s claim isn’t that pre-colonial Yoruba didn’t recognize sexual difference or that they didn’t give birth or raise children; her claim is that pre-colonial Yoruba cultures didn’t use the body as a basis for any social roles—rather, relative age was the main organizing principle. She argues that a Western biological determinist account of gender is not applicable or relevant across all cultures.
>most cultures outside of the west do not opt for a trans identity at all but instead a label that recognizes their sex and their unique social position, which is greatly preferred by them.
In actuality, these social identities are almost always third genders non-consensually imposed on trans women in order to marginalize them, and are vocally dispreferred by the latter.
>Read interviews with Thai people who identify as kathoey.
Most Thai trans women refer to themselves as “phuying” (“woman”), with a minority referring to themselves as “phuying praphet song” (“second kind of woman”). Very few refer to themselves as “kathoey”. Source: https://doi.org/10.1300%2FJ485v09n01_03
All Marxists are incapable of logic, because if they were, then they wouldn’t be Marxists.

>>43843280
>Yoruba cultures didn’t use the body as a basis for any social roles—rather, relative age was the main organizing principle.
That is still the body, and even if age took importance over sex, one could only argue sex is irrelevant as a result if the entire question of sexed division of labor were completely ignored. I will read the book though because it does seem interesting. My usage of kathoey comes from this https://www.dukeupress.edu/imagining-transgender which was extremely illuminating for me and actually pulled me *out* of the TERFsphere. It is precisely my disdain for sexual difference and the notions of gender which stem from it that I find it important to acknowledge the reality of these circumstances, not to use them to point at as proof of "men do this women do that" but to map out exactly why and how things have unfolded the way they have, in order to *not* reify the baggage.

I do genuinely appreciate the lead on this text, we would agree more than we disagree, but I do hate Karl Popper with all of my might. And the thoughtless shit I see on the front page of this board always ruins my mood, but thank you for actually at least engaging, sincerely.

>>43843542
You dislike Karl Popper exclusively because he successfully refuted Marxism (which you are too emotionally attached to to give up despite this) and for no other reason.

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>>43843980
>heh, your argument is gonna go down the SHITTER once i, in a completely and utterly unrelated discussion, bring up marxism, to explain to you how its heckin DEBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONKED
why are americans like this. actually so fucking embarrassing

>>43842921
>all of this boils down to misogyny
Can you explain how?

>>43841429
It's not about production of gametes but how your body is specced
Intersex people are specced incorrectly (don't completely fit male/female specs) but they are generally fairly close to one of these so that's where the doctors put them
Trans people are mostly not intersex so a trans woman is generally born as a properly specced male

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>>43840407
mhm mhm quite quite

>>43842351
>They're brainwashing gay men and lesbians! That's why the western world hates trannies so much more than gay men and lesbians!

>>43843244
And the purpose of medical transition is to change those material circumstances. There are entire branches of feminism built around using technology to reduce or eliminate the distinction of sex.

all modern western culture revolves around judgement and ostracism
neurotic world built by a neurotic people (jews and women)

>>43842415
because they hope that these people later stop being homosexual lol
the next step after getting rid of transsexuality is getting rid of homosexuality and they don't want those fixed former homosexuals to be mutilated
most terfs are straight middle aged christian narcisist moms

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>>43840407
TERFs be like
>I'll do whatever it takes to kill trannies
Then smile as they serve me my latte

>>43840407
This is britain, maam

>>43845363
>I would vote for super hitler because he says trannies are bad instead of super angela davis because she called a random transwoman by she