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for Hellēnanons

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I'd like to study Greek in the future, but I'm not at the point in my Latin where I'm ready to commit to it seriously. If I memorize a few lines from the Gospel of John each day, how far will that advance me in my knowledge of Greek? How well will that translate into Attic, Homeric, and other Koine authors? I find memorizing Latin poetry to be very fun and useful, so I'm wondering how useful memorization would be as a method of introduction into a new language, without committing to textbooks or readers.

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you now remember that modern greek tried to larp as ancient greek.

>>25286645
hard to say but at least if you spend some time on the alphabet and pronunciation to get it right from the start, that would already help you get used to the language's sounds so when/if you eventually delve deeper you have that part fully digested

>>25286773
αἴθ' ὄφελον κρηῆναι! looks kino compared to the current language

>>25286773

This is basically modern greek tho. It's not hard to understand at all for a modern greek that knows nothing about ancient greek.

If it looks too ancient greek it's because of the tones and the breathing marks ( that were very wrongly removed from the language few decades ago).

Modern greek clearly comes from ancient greek, this isn't really debatable.

>>25286844
>wrongly
They convey no information in modern greek, other than "this is how a word was pronounced 2000 years ago".

Thoughts on studying at least two languages together? I wanna build the habit first just maybe 30mins-1hr each day for each language. Mostly interested in French and Latin. Is it a bad idea?

>>25287333
As long as the languages are not too close to each other and you practice them at separate days, you should be fine. When they are too close to each other, the crossover may inhibit your learning speed/efficiency surprisingly.

>>25287195
>he says as writes in English

Do you know enough about a classical language to be able to come out with a pun of your own?

>>25287742
I could maybe come up with a sentence about a storm being like a goat (“aix”) if given enough time to think of a joke but there’s already a lot of classic lit that uses that pun.

>>25287333
Why don’t you just pick one and do it well for a month or two first to establish the habits?

>>25287550
>Iuliā
>ā

>>25286598
κλῆρον πάλλω

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>>25288465
>On the nature of Man.

>To whomsoever has gotten used to listen to those speaking about human nature further than what pertains to medicine, listening to this discourse is of no avail: I don't say man is wholly air, or fire, or water, or earth, or anything else not plainly visible in man: but I leave it to those willing to say these things.
>They seem to me indeed like they aren't properly understanding: they agree on the same knowledge, but don't say the same things; they reach the same conclusion, say that whatever it is it's one and united, but don't agree on the terms: for one of them says this unity is air, another it's fire, another water, another earth and every one of them adduces many arguments and indications to support their point, which are trifles.
>Their disagreement on what they say despite starting from the same knowledge is a clear sign that their knowledge on what they say is faulty. One would know this especially by standing in the midst of them speaking against each other: the same men debating against each other with the same listeners around won't win the debate thrice in a row, but one day this, the other day that, another day the one whose tongue is most fluent in front of the crowd.
>And yet it's right to say that who says that he knows what he is talking about should always provide the winning argument, if he knows how things are and demonstrates them right. But it seems to me that these kinds of men, due to their ignorance, debase themselves by being entrenched in these arguments, but straighten the argument by Melissos.
Last part regarding Melissos feels sketchy not sure I really understood what he meant.

>>25288114
I take it you're new to the ablative.

>>25288546
I am actually a Hippocratic expert and can help you out with this!

He is saying that all Monists ultimately support the same thing which is everything of one essence so arguing over how motion and difference works, ie Eleatics vs Heraclitus - is entirely pointless. By “throwing out your ideology and proving Melissos” he is saying that everyone (Thales, Heraclitus, etc) who considers the physical plane of one substance ultimately proves Eleaticism because Melissos (the most famous Eleatic of the time) believes the same thing as Thales or as Heraclitus but they just differ as to what to call Being.

I hope I could have sorted that out for you! I never get to talk about Hippocrates on here.

>>25288546
This thread in the archive is actually an in-depth analysis at this exact part of Polybus On Nature.

https://warosu.org/lit/thread/24942361

I am the only anon who seemingly cares about Hippocrates and Galen.

>>25289332
>>25289340
interesting, I had never even heard about Melissos before this, my experience with presocratics is limited, just few biographies in Diogenes Laertius and the poem on nature by Parmenides, the last line of this reading/translation exercise had kinda stumbled me a bit because ὀρθοῦν could maybe be interpreted also in the sense of "making right" so in a sense "improve" but I guess I got that right that it should be interpreted as their confusion so to speak leading, qua confusion, if you will, to strengthen Melissos' theory

>>25289388
Yes you’re absolutely correct to read it in that way. It’s just saying Heraclitus/ Parmenides and Melissos/ Zeno/ Thales/ all of the Ionian school are preaching the same Monism and their differences as what to call the substance Being and how motion works only constitute at best minor nitpicking.

>>25288569
Tace, stulte. Subiectus sententiae Iulia est, ergo esse nominativo in casu debet.

>>25290321
Esto humilis, puer. Disce pati confutationem ne confuteris iterum.

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posting it myself hope Latinanon is ok with it

>>25291159
Thank you. I’m studying for the bar exam so I’m probably not going to be posting much at all for the next couple months.

>>25291643
>S. MACARII ALEXANDRINI ABBATIS NITRIENSIS
>REGULA AD MONACHOS

>I. Milites ergo Christi sic taliter suos debent componere gressus, charitatem in se perfectissimam continentes, "Deum ex tota anima diligere, et ex toto corde, et ex tota virtute sua." [Marc. xii,30]

>II. Invicem inter se perfectissimam sectantes obedientiam, pacifici, mites, moderati, non superbi, non injuriosi, non susurrones, non irrisores, non verbosi, non praesumptuosi, non sibi placentes, sed Deo cui militant Christo: non blasphemiam sectantes, nec dicentes quidquam praeter quod bonum est: ad obsequium non pigri, ad orationem parati, in humilitate perfecti, in obedientia praecincti, in vigiliis instantes, in jejunio hilares.

>III. Nullus se alio justiorem arbitretur; sed unusquisque omnibus se inferiorem contemnat: "Quia se exaltat, humiliabitur; et qui se humiliat, exaltabitur." [Luc. xiv,11]

>IV. Praeceptum senioris ut salutem suscipias: non murmurando ullam operam facias: non responsionem contra praeceptum usurpes.

>V. Non te extollas, aut magnifices aliquam utilem operam fecisse: non in acquirendo aliquid lucri congaudeas, aut in damno contristeris.

>VI. Non te familiaritas ulla saecularis trahat; sed tota delectatio tua in cellula demoretur. Cellam ut paradisum habeas; fratres tuos spirituales ut aeternos confidas habere parentes.

>VII. Praepositum monasterii timeas ut dominum, diligas ut parentem. Similiter quoque omnes oportet diligere fratres, cum quibus etiam te confidis videre gloriam Christi.

Nice easy read so I don’t get rusty.

>>25286773
Better than what they're doing now. Ancients would be humiliated to hear arabized pseudo turks babble out the new stuff.

>>25286593
>aislop OP
disgusting

>>25291660
>>25291683
You don't need to artificially bump this thread with banal nothing posts like this, you know.

>>25291687
Debate it or get out.

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>>25291683
it's a sunnier version of this painting since the theme is the coming summer

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>>25287742

Here is a pun from antiquity courtesy of the beloved Longus. It’s from a scene where the pirates capture Daphnis because his goats had eaten the cables of their ship allowing it to float out to sea and become smashed by the waves. Literally “he allows his goats to eat on the other goats (waves).”

>os epi ton aigon tas aigas nemei.

>>25291693
Shut the fuck up and go away. “Modern Greeks are Turks” and bitching about AI are both low quality posts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uSoy-nFp5s
I knew this guy was an esoteric Kantian

>>25291716
When I made that post last thread about modern greeks I didn't know it was like a shitpost genre for this thread. I wanted to have an actual discussion about it.

>>25293043
>I didn't know it was like a shitpost genre for this thread

NTA but it's not a shitpost here, it's not discussed at all. If you want to talk specifically about the relation between ancient and modern greeks there's always a thread on /his/ or /pol/ or w.e since it's a hot topic nowadays with the new Odyssey movie. So you can go there, go to reddit, go to chatgpt or wherever else you want.This thread is about classical languages.

>>25293098
I don't want to use those boards. I'm really not mean spirited. I didn't even know there was a new odyssey movie.

>>25293106
>not mean spirited
>A British prep schoolchild is more Greek than them. They should rename the country.
elite gaslighting. funny, but for real take it to /his/

>>25293143
Please stop treating me like one of those types

>>25293154
Don’t post like one of those types if you don’t want people to argue with your posts. It’s an imageboard, literally all we have to engage with is our posts. We know nothing about each other, and half the time you might not even be responding to the right anon.

>>25293171
Can you just give me a break

>>25293171
Give him a break dude

>>25293174
>>25293260
Alright alright, you can have a break big guy.

>>25293174
Yeah, I'll give you a "break" alright...

*breaks you in half*

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Classical languages?

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Back with a translation challenge.

Easy
We're about to fight.
Make sure your sword is sharp.
Are you sure we can win this fight?

Medium
Send your best men ahead to scout the place.
Tell them that if they meet any resistance they must fall back.
If that isn't the case, they ought to proceed until they reach the main road and wait for us.

Hard
As they proceeded down the treacherous mountain road they seemed confident that no enemies were anywhere near them, but while their guard was low, suddenly, a portentously large wild boar stood in the middle of their path, unfazed by their presence. Thinking the presence of their horses would scatter him as they came closer, they advanced but to their surprise they were charged right as the sun, rising above the hills in front of them, blinded them. But suddenly, there was no boar to be seen, but only a common feeling that what they had just witnessed was a sign and warning of things to come.

Bonus:
Go on wikipedia, click on random article and describe what it is about.

Are there any decent websites to download semi obscure Greek and Latin Literature in either EPUB, PDF or MOBI?
The Internet Archive is decent but i'd like to know of any other websites where i can download Latin and Greek works that aren't the usual normalfag authors like Caesar, Cicero, Plutarch, Plato, etc.
I'm especially interested on sites that have Late Antiquity and Medieval age works since personally those tend to be the hardest to find online.

Any good channels where they just parse selections of Latin (or Greek or any other language)? Like in these videos.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6ditE2VC8Ls
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rmymoyqWkY8&pp=ygUVZ2VzdGEgcm9tYW5vcnVtIGxhdGlu

>>25293871
an option could maybe be wikisource, it has many works and a button to convert books into pdfs
maybe you could even get good results with e.g asking AI to create a pdf from a book on thelatinlibrary or other sites that have them in plain text

淵 is the best hanzi I've come across thus far
I've started using Paul Rouzer and Vogelsang at the same time
Eventually I will use Introduction to Classical Chinese by Patrick Hanan

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What even is the point of writing the smooth breathing?

>>25294817
back then it probably was a useful overcorrection considering there were no spaces between words and there are also some words that differ only by the breathing so it removes ambiguity altogether and one isn't left wondering whether the scribe forgot a rough breathing or it is a smooth breathing(needless to say, this system was invented for non native speakers)

>>25294817
Same reason that tonal languages exist in Asia pretty much.

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>>25293777
Pugnaturi sumus.
Cave ut gladius sit tibi acutus.
Esne certus hac pugna fore nos victores?

Optimos praemitte regionem speculatum.
Manda illis ut pedem referant si propugnantibus incurrant.
Sin autem nullis ut iter faciant usque ad viam primam et nostrum adventum maneant.

Asperam montis semitam descendentibus spes erat nullos prope adesse hostes at, cum parum vigilantes essent, repente obstitit iis permagnus aper iter obstruens, nullo eorum praesentiae metu perculsus. Pro certo habentes equos in fugam eum conversuros cum proprius instarent gradum protulerunt sed magno cum stupore impetum in eos fecit sole statim caecatos qui protinus oriebatur super colles ante eos. At necopinato e conspectu abiit aper, opinio autem inter eos extitit portentum se spectasse atque vero omen rerum venturarum.

Bonus:
Casu datum est ut paginam describam apud Vicipediam de stadio quodam in Mamucio, Angliae septentrionalis inclita urbe, sito, accuratius Hazel Grove: ibi erat, si licet novum vocabulum creare, canidromus id est cursus canum non omnium sed leporariorum qui valde noti sunt ob eorum velocitatem et venatu agilitatem. Conditus anno MCMXXXII p. C. n. et famam maximam anno MCMXLVI adeptus venditus est a domino post quattuordecim annos cum ludis huius generis iam minus minusque populus delectaretur, et deinde dirutus insularum urbanarum aedificandarum causa.

noob who started athenaze yesterday, what am I supposed to use to check pronunciation?

>>25295407
read along Ioannis Stratakis(pbuh) https://www.youtube.com/@Podium-arts/videos

>>25295475
btw apparently, at least according to someone in a previous thread, he has readings of Athenaze which he sends if requested by email
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5uWdhiFR9A

>>25291159
okey dokey

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Asuka says to study Greek today

>>25295212
What do you even mean?

>>25297119
To differentiate homonyms from one another.

how can I get attic on my keyboard

>>25297359
I can help on linux, on windows I think there are similar tools but idk about them

>>25297368
windows

>>25297359
Euclides grec politònic

>>25286593
any issues with learning how to pronounce modern greek then reading the classics that way? that's going to be my summer project this year then next year I'll spend a summer there.

>>25297359
Download keyman and install the Classical Greek keyboard. You will never look back, trust me

>>25297403
if you haven't learned ancient I guess maybe some mnemonic issues due to the divergence between written and pronounced language, but then again you basically only read the ancient language so maybe it's not a big deal, as with Latin vowel/syllable length matters more than sound qualities if you ever get into poetry

still though if it were me I'd still try to pivot at least towards a Koine era pronunciation for ancient

>>25286593
>ai slop
fucking christ even the latin bros now?

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quam ob rem contemnunt multi intelligentias artificiosas? unde taedium quo excruciamini?

new odyssey reading
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt-pfjcMzH4

I'm at Lingua Latina Chapter 6 and feel like rage quitting.

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>>25298090
exhauriunt aquam quam colebant uvae super capite tuo.

>>25286773
Anthony Kaldellis talked about this in one of his podcasts. How this stuck around in the army, and officers and drill sargents would shout stuff in ancient Greek mixec with modern Greek, but the young people had no idea what they were saying and thought they were, I believe, English loanwords, or something like that

>>25299160
Lingua Latina a Anonymo pigro non amatur. Hahae!

Just kidding, reread several times the previous chapters and check the ancillary Orberg book Colloquia Personarum for additional stories and input for chapters 1 to 5.

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>>25299162
ista quidem vis est!
mihi ingenita, naturalis intelligentia est, calliditas Ulixi digna, non equidem artificiosa

I'm trying to learn too many languages at once and I'm going to collapse under the weight. I hate my retarded adhd brain that flits from one thing to the next and always puts too much on my plate. I'd probably already be a master at a language by now if I could just fucking focus on one and not give up. I've wanted to learn a language since I was 14 and never fucking did it

>>25299160
Read the Bible.

>>25299160
reread it from capitulum primum and the kinks will work themselves out

>>25299294
btw this isn’t my idea, it’s patented by Luke Ranieri in his Pyramid Re-Reading Technique

>>25299260
Being a master of one language is not an accomplishment, literally nobody cares. If you learn how to learn languages you become unstoppable.

>>25299260
What I did was I accepted that I had dabbler instincts and just made sure that the one I was most passionate about (latin) always got enough time to meaningfully progress. I.e. in a given month I might spend some time learning something totally random but always at least half my time was spent on Latin.

>>25299260
ad litteram ego

>>25299160
Rereading as that other anon said. And to expand on what I said about the Bible. Finding a manageable enough text (with a parallel translation) that you actually want to read turns Latin from a battle with a particular textbook into a process, which you can enjoy, of learning an actual language, with the textbook just being a structured path through the beginner phase. In essence, if you throw shit at the wall, you will find the pedagogy/practice provided in familia romana to be helpful, refreshing, and clarifying rather than annoying. Same goes for a grammar book, they stop being obnoxious and become helpful when some portion of your time is spent in trying to work with goal texts.

The nice thing is these goal texts, paired with familiar romana, become a real engine for fluency if you reread whatever material you have already fought your way through. When I was frustrated with FR I personally picked a favorite gospel (~50 pages) took a long time to get through it decoding, then went and reread it twice and all of a sudden I had a massive breakthrough in reading ability.

>>25293953
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSqPNT-_7nk

Are the exercitia essential in lingua latina
I find them kinda tedious

>>25299497
No. But they are definitely helpful, and if you skip them, you may find you’ll feel a need to do grammar exercises later anyways at some point. But the only essential thing is understanding the text and the grammar taught explicitly at the end.

>>25299497
Skip those and do dedicated wheelocks chapter runs or data dump grammar tables from memory onto a sheet of paper.

>>25299160
That's a notoriously difficult chapter. People complain about chapter 8, but I think that chapter 6 is probably a bigger jump. Just know that some chapters are more difficult than others, and it's not your fault if you struggle with certain ones. If you're going through a chapter a week and you're dedicating a reasonable amount of time and effort during that week to studying, then give it your best and move on, even if "quam... tam..." doesn't feel intuitive yet. You can always come back and revisit it later.

>>25299497
The pensa are supposed to be a diagnostic. The teacher's guide says a score of 80% on the pensa shows sufficient mastery of the material to move on. If you're doing seld-study, there's no reason to hold yourself to that though. You can work through the book however you like.

As for the workbook, you can decide whether you think it's worthwhile or not. It's not absolutely necessary.

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>>25299685
>wheelocks

>>25299692
it's for the high iq autists who think in shapes
the midwit path is lingua latina

>>25299692
That's where I learned the rest of the grammar. You're not going to get grammar from llpsi. It's cheap, explanatory, and tactile.

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>>25293777
μέλλομεν μάχεσθαι
τὸν νοῦν πρόσεχε τῇ ὀξύτητι τοῦ ξίφους
ἆρ' ἡμᾶς τῷ ὄντι νικήσεσθαι οἴῃ τῇδε τῇ μάχῃ;

πρόπεμψον τοὺς ἀρίστους τὴν χῶραν κατασκοπήσοντας
ἄνωχθ' αὐτοὺς ἀναχωρητέον ἐὰν ἐναντίοις προσπίπτωσιν
ἐὰν μὴ γίγνηται, προχωρητέον εἰς τὴν μεγίστην ὁδὸν κᾆτ' ἡμᾶς περιμένειν

τοῖς κάτω πορευομένοις τῆς τραχείας ἐν ὄρει ἀτραποῦ βεβαίως ἐφαίνετο οὐδένας πω εἶναι πέλας πολεμίους ἀλλά, ὠς μὴ νοῦν ἔχουσι πρὸς τὰ πέριξ, ἐξαίφνης μέγας τε θαυμαστὸς ὗς ἔφηνεν ἐμποδὼς καὶ τὴν κάθοδον αὐτῶν κατεργνὺς ἀδεῶς· οἱ δ' ἡγούμενοι φύγαδέ μιν τρέψειν τοὺς ἵππους προσχωρήσοντας προήγαγον ἀλλ` ὁ ὗς ἐπέθετο αὐτοῖς ἀπροσδοκήτοις καὶ ὑπὸ τοῦ ἡλίου τυφλουμένοις ὅς αὐτίκ' ἀνέτειλεν ὑπὲρ
τοὺς ἀντίους λόφους· ἀλλά τοι ἄφνω δ' ἄφαντος ᾤχετ' ὁ ὗς καὶ αὐτοὺς ἔλιπεν συννοῦντας ὡς τέκμαρ τῶν μελλόντων γενέσθαι ἐωρακέναι.

>ἐκ Οὐικιθήκης
ἡ Ἐκατέρινα Πούσκας, μετὰ τὸν Χριστὸν 'αϡθβ ἐτῶν γεγονυῖά, ἐστὶ Ῥωσσικὴ κρυσταλλορχηστρίς· τὸ πρῶτον μὲν τὴν χορείαν σπουδάζουσα ἐτρέφθην δ' εἰς τὴν κρυσταλλοχορείαν πεπεισμένη τῷ ἀνεψιῷ· μετ' αὐτοῦ καὶ ἄλλου κρυσταλλορχηστοῦ ἠνέγκατο δύο ἆθλω ἐν τῇ κρυσταλλοχορείᾳ

>>25299696
>>25299685
What about using cambridge along with lingua latina to help with grammar?
I find Cambridge comfy because I used it in school

>>25299763
There are dedicated LLPSI grammar companions that will work better for you if you plan to stick it out with LLPSI.

>>25299763
>>25299786
Llpsi is useful in the same way that Swadeshi lists are useful - for knowing basic words. Cambridge did something similar. While they're heralded for getting you to read, the actual value is picking up baseline vocabulary. For grammar, Wheelocks does it more completely, and you want to get to reading starters like the Vulgate soon-before you even complete llpsi.

When should I move on from chapter 1 of llpsi? I've been doing an hour of capitulum primum each day for the last 3 days. I've listened to the audio multiple times and I've read it myself. I got everything right on pensum A but some wrong on pensum b and a lot on c

>>25299695
Latin was a language developed by midwits, like Cicero. To learn Latin you must become as a midwit.

>>25299908
If you’re ever unsure about moving on from a chapter just move on anyways. Nothing is stopping you from just rereading old chapters later, which helps a ton on its own.

>>25299814
Yes, it is for reading volume to get a core vocabulary. The companion can help a lot for learning explicit grammar though. But overall people really just need to get through it as best they can, read and reread a lot, and accept that they’re gonna have gaps at first if they’re self-educating. All my biggest jumps in ability reading latin came from, once I was a good chunk through familia romana, reading actual non-pedagogical texts and struggling through it. There really is no perfect method here, so no one should let over-dedication to specific textbooks hinder their goals and progress, with the most important thing being volume of reading for people in their first year (besides foundational grammar, most of which totally can come from LLPSI if you want).

>READ NIGGA READ

>>25300043
>There really is no perfect method here
There is- pure grind. Data dump from memory the summary of forms in the back of Wheelock's. If you can do 20% of it, you can read most of what you need to from LLPSI. 40% puts you reading just about anything. 80% puts you about syntactically fluent if you prioritize the most common line items. Then it's a matter of eating vocabulary, but I feel like that's just done better with word lists. The problem there is that LLPSI doesn't actually have word lists, you just have to sort of guess at things. Anki or basically anything with lists of words in the margins or opposite page become infinitely more useful. Starting grammar first lets you morph words as you meet them. If you can write out each case for a word, or at least recognize where it might land, and conjugate four of the six tenses and recognize a passive then you're square for reading. Writing is an entirely different challenge because then you have to tighten up the top 20% rarest grammar concepts but by then you know enough words to put something down.

>>25300201
This is bad advice for beginners. You can’t memorize your way to fluent comprehension.

>>25300212
All language is memory. Memorizing vocabulary, memorizing forms. That's what it means to know a language. If you cannot describe what you're doing in a language then you are not fluent. Repeating canned phrases is not fluency.

And when I say that, language doesn't use spatial reasoning or critical thinking necessarily. It's grown entirely out of memorization. There's no linear correlation between roots and phono tactics and you can't just use fluid thinking to fill in blanks because then you'd deviate from what's actually happening under the hood. A language is a concrete system itself, and introducing anything other than memory rejects the language's standards and substance. It's all literally memory. That's why if you don't use it, you lose it.

>>25300245
When I said memory I meant isolated memorization, because you mentioned word lists. The average five-year-old doesn’t study word lists or memorize grammar tables, nor can they explain much grammar, if any, yet they’re absolutely fluent in their native language.

>>25300259
>nor can they explain much grammar, if any, yet they’re absolutely fluent in their native language.
Five year olds aren't fluent. People don't become fluent until around 16, and that's after years of schooling. You're using a model that takes 16 years to become proficient and that's with assisted teaching.

Word lists are especially useful in latin because the language isn't as reliant on prepositional or articular phrases, or post positions. You don't need idiom, metaphor, or periphrastics to study Latin vocabulary either. It is uniquely suited to the grind house method.

>>25300245
>If you cannot describe what you're doing in a language then you are not fluent


I can speak English just fine and I have no idea how English grammar works.

>>25300309
You're not fluent, you're parroting.

>>25300311
oh okay

>>25300245
>native speakers aren’t fluent in their own language

>>25300443
The irony is: by arguing that parroting is still fluency, you're proving that memory alone is necessary for being functional in a language. That's because if needing analytical understanding of a language is taken out, then sheer memorization is all there is. Pure parroting. Analytical flexing of syntactic structures are the closest thing one ever gets to exercising fluid reasoning inside of a language, and that's limited to precedent within the language (for example, I can't just use articular phrases the way ancient Greek does in English and expect everyone to understand what they mean, nor use prepositional articles with infinitives to drive abstraction in non-abstract languages like Koine does).

But the tldr is this: you might accept that medieval people were not literate. Fluency is higher than literacy. I propose to you that people have become half-way literate, but very few fluent.

>>25300454
Define fluency and cite to a single serious source even sort of agreeing with you.

Fluency clearly means you can speak with other speakers of the same language and survive, living your life using only that language. It requires no analysis and doesn’t even require being literate. Dead languages are ones you cannot be fluent in, because the social feedback necessary to communicate on a daily basis simply isn’t available. Too many readers of ancient languages believe they are fluent when they have never spoken an unscripted sentence in their chosen language with someone outside of their class in school.

No, you define fluency yourself and don't bother citing someone else's interpretation. Create your own interpretation of the facts. Also- you really need to see the literacy stats before you barge in here with neo-utopian arguments for modern western education. The way I have described fluency might be better served with a term for linguistic erudition. There's no sense quibbling over vocal or intellectual fluency - all of the points stand.

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Oh so I guess we're just ignoring Latin now and instead focus on the languages that are actually important for the Catholic Church, like Arabic.

>>25293953
https://archive.org/details/CommentariesOnTheGallicWarCaesarCompletelyParsedBookI

https://archive.org/details/completely-parsed-cicero-oration-1

https://archive.org/details/fully-parsed-horace-odes-translation-pub-co

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.31822003632080

https://archive.org/details/progressivegerma00adle

https://archive.org/details/easyfrenchreadin00fish

>>25301047
on the top right where deutsch is if you click there is a Latine option which redirects to a part of te site specifically for Latin and the encyclical isn't there yet, weird indeed, aren't they supposed to write these things in Latin first then translate or am I not up with the times?

I am currently learning ancient greek at university and so far its chalenging but fun. Now in classes we only read snippets of ancient texts, but since I always wanted to read the bible in greek (or at least the new testament) I was wondering if attic greek is much different to koine greek and what version I should get of the new testament in greek

>>25300850
This is a very wordy way to say you know you’re misusing a term.

>>25300739
>Too many readers of ancient languages believe they are fluent when they have never spoken an unscripted sentence in their chosen language with someone outside of their class in school.
This is true.

>>25301371
Koine Greek is not a classical language.

>>25287474
>What is the is-ought distinction?

>>25301371
You probably won't notice the differences in Koine, it's classical Greek with some slight simplification.
For editions, Zondervan publishes "A Reader's Greek and Hebrew Bible" which has vocabulary footnotes for all words outside the 200 most common or something like that.

>>25299929
>In the lectures last week, I mentioned that in the course of mankind's evolution, language, speech as a whole, has also undergone a development. I alluded to how, in very ancient times, speech was something that Man formed out of himself as his most primal ability; how, with the help of his organs of speech he was able to manifest the divine spiritual forces living within him. I also referred to how, in the transition from the Greek culture to the Roman-Latin culture, that is to say in the fourth Post-Atlantean period, the single sounds in language lose their names and, as in contemporary usage, merely have value as sounds. In Greek culture we still have a name for the first letter of the alphabet but in Latin it is just ‘A’. In passing from the Greek to the Latin culture something living in speech, something eminently concrete changes into abstraction. It might be said: as long as Man called the first letter of the alphabet ‘Alpha’, he experienced a certain amount of inspiration in it, but the moment he called it just ‘A’, the letters conformed to outer convention, to the prosaic aspects of life, replacing inspiration and inner experience. This constituted the actual transition from everything belonging to Greece to what is Roman-Latin—men of culture became estranged from the spiritual world of poetry and entered into the prose of life.
The schizo in me agrees,

>>25301412
> For editions, Zondervan publishes "A Reader's Greek and Hebrew Bible" which has vocabulary footnotes for all words outside the 200 most common or something like that.
I should add that it's based on the UBS text (can't tell what version but I assume it's one of the recent ones where the text is all the same), but with some variations that were used when creating the TNIV English translation. They do have footnotes indicating where they diverge from the UBS text.
The Hebrew text is WLC 4.10. I haven't looked at that side of the book because I'm not ambitious enough to learn Hebrew yet, it does have the same footnotes system though.

>>25301382
Not in the slightest. Grammatical fluency is clearly what I was referencing. Spewing words out a la via mode repeating whatever you hear others say is not fluency- it's hardly even the imitation of fluency.

>>25301397
Koine is from the classical period, ergo it is a classical language.

>>25301404
You're not making a point here.

>>25301424
>>25301412
thanks man, I have absolutely no knowledge on the bible or the different text versions tho

>>25301446
Retard

>>25301371
the Koine specifically of the NT comes off indeed as a simplified version of Attic but Koine itself has authors that could very much be completely indistinguishable from peak Attic

>>25301468
> Koine itself has authors that could very much be completely indistinguishable from peak Attic

Koine has pretty much only Longus if we’re being serious about it.

If you’re being liberal with it, Koine maybe along fiction and philosophy works has some of the Greek novels such as Ethiopica, a work so minor that Loeb’s doesn’t even print it.

fuck the second chapter of llpsi is way longer lol

>>25295497
anyone have this, why tf I gotta send him my address for this

>>25301860
cavere, si hoc capitulum longum esse putas, prope fine hoc libro capitula densioria sunt. noli permittere te ipsum irrumere.

bump

hoc die prospero loquitur denuo magister nobis

>>25303802
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4qjffQyNIA

update on starting Pharr's Homeric Greek 10 days ago. >>25279764 >>25280364
I sped through the first twenty lessons. For each one I skim the grammar, put vocab in anki, and test comprehension on the Greek -> English exercises. It hasn't been too challenging yet, but the complexity of the verb system is beginning to loom over me. All in all it's an enjoyable textbook. Reading 25 lines of The Iliad so quickly is enormously satisfying. Pharr was onto something there.

I'm leaning Latin and French concurrently. Everyday I want to drop French and just focus on Latin. Learning French has kind of killed my interest in the language to be honest. While Latin only grows in interest and excitement. French is purely utilitarian at this point

>>25304094
εὖγε τῆς ὁρμῆς!
Homer's formulaic nature, putting aside the initial steep curve which is definitely not a joke, does indeed make me think it's a good idea, overall, especially if one knows the story more or less

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they literally just let people write anything in latin, huh.

>>25304158
something similar happened to me with German and Latin, I didn't learn them at the same time but started with German first, but once I also began doing Latin I shifted heavily to the latter(before Greek did the same to Latin)

I'm a bit confused with the pronounciation of ᾳ ῃ ῳ. I checked vox graeca a bit quickly for this and it says to just pronounce them as long vowels. But the ι definitely had a reason to exist there.

How do you pronounce them and how are they different compared to αι, ει and οι?

>>25305480
Possible correction , it seems to me that ει and ῃ aren't probably that similar since the latter is likely an ei sound so it's not comparable to ει in attic greek

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>>25305480
they are effectively just ᾱι ηι ωι in origin, some editions like the Odyssey I'm reading right now even print them as they were originally before the subscript iota was invented, so as far as pronounciation if you follow the reconstructed Attic system they are aai, eei and ooi with the proper vowel qualities(e open as in english 'entity', o as in 'ought' in RP)
but indeed at some point the iota was falling out of the actual pronunciation and in Erasmian systems they are as you said just pronounced as long vowels without the iota

αι and οι are just the corresponding diphthongs where the first vowel is short, and the 'o' is also closed (ou in 'ought' pronounced by an Australian)

ει is another matter as originally it was a false diphthong like ου and just indicated the long closed vowel ē to distinguish it from the sound of η, open
but in Erasmian systems IIRC it's usually pronounced as ei like a diphthong

>>25305496
>>25305496
So for αι vs ᾳ , it's an extra hold for the α ? So for all of the iota subscribt letters we essentially have the long vowel plus an ι ?

Is that ι pronounced as it would normally be or is it somewhat shorter ?

>>25305510
>So for αι vs ᾳ , it's an extra hold for the α ? So for all of the iota subscribt letters we essentially have the long vowel plus an ι ?
yes, which if you ask me was also a good idea in terms of legibility as you will immediately recognize e.g first person dative vs second person plural of first declension nouns, while e.g in Latin it's ae vs ae

as far as your pronunciation system goes though, it depends on what you are sticking to, if Erasmian, you shouldn't pronounce the iota in the ᾳ but just the long alpha
the iota in any case was short so just a normal iota

>>25305515
I'm probably using wrong terminology but we end up having 3 morae/times in the iota subscript letters right ?

ᾳ is āi so it's 3 times, double time from ā and a short ι

>>25305543
I see what you mean, āi is how it was born etymologically if you will, to distinguish it from cases where etymologically the initial alpha was short, but in terms of length/morae it counts as two

>>25303805
You esoterik goblins need to be culled

I wish the catholic church gave out free books of the vulgate

>>25305551
Man I am having trouble with that.

Since ᾳ is two morae (I mean that's why it can be ᾷ) but it has the ι that was probably pronounced to an extend in attic Greek. So it was pronounced but not enough to count as an extra morae? Do we just say ā and then finish it quickly with an ι ;

>>25305480
Ah
Eh
Oh

Anyone learned:
Latin + Italian
Ancient Greek + Modern Greek
Considering learning modern greek as well, but i dont know if it will be worth it compared to Italian

>>25305604
Unfortunately the bulk of clergy that do care about Latin seemingly have no idea how to interact with the laity, regarding Latin, outside of the bounds of lecture halls and courses so for the time being official vulgates will remain rare and expensive while laity, academic or otherwise, publish all the accessible editions.

>>25305606
I mean with languages things follow logic only to a degree, same reason why you have to just accept that αι and οι in the first person plural nominative "count" as short when it comes to accentuation of nouns, but αι counts as long in the optative, it's hard to say, I think fundamentally it's a matter of the system not going further than long and short, so even if etymologically you have the encounter of vowels that in total would make three morae as one, it collapses to two, or you just get two separate syllables altogether
but clearly though the very fact that the orthography reflects it indicates that the Greeks understood it somehow, even if in practice one wouldn't hear any metric difference between e.g ἀγορᾷ and ἀγοραί except in the pitch /\ vs _/

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>>25305675
Idk how good it is but I have seen this for people who already know ancient greek and wanna get into modern.

>>25286593
I want to learn Koine Greek, so I can read the Septuagint and the New Testament. What is the best textbook to use?

File: Logos.png (557.4 KB)

>>25305759
try Logos lingua Graeca or Athenaze; maybe(probably) there are textbooks out there specifically tailored towards biblical Greek but I don't know about them

>>25303805
miror Latinitatem amborum, et recitantis et cuius scripsit, mecum voluto illo tempore cum Kant vitam ageret qualis fuerit facundia eorum quibus in universitatibus disputationes et alia scribenda erant latine, num e.g. ut perficerent capitulum horis egerint an potius die vel diebus ceteris paribus(licet sane spatium necesse esse argumento ipso explicando)

>>25299160
I’ve been using Familia Romana, but I checked that one out, and chapter 6 seems to only be a few pages in. No wonder you’re having trouble. The one I’m reading takes it more gradually. Wouldn’t hurt to try it out, because I can just about understand your chapter 6 without much trouble.

bumparoni

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Bump

>>25304270
>initial steep curve which is definitely not a joke
Did you start with Homeric Greek or a later dialect? How long did it take you to get comfortable? With every lesson of Pharr I progress I have this feeling that because of the volume of input it requires to get comfortable it'll never happen with Homer + Pharr's pseudo-Homer alone, and I'll always be hunting and pecking for some obscure form or word that only appears once or a few times

>>25309955
I started with Attic, back then I didn't even know about Pharr's approach. I spent maybe a year and a half on Attic before getting into Homer with JACT's intro book. With Homer itself maybe few months, the first read is of course quite "nasty" so to speak i.e having to check constantly for words but what I'm saying is that if you get through a single book of the Iliad and re-read it multiple times and really get comfortable with it, a lot carries over throughout the whole of Homeric literature, both lexically and grammatically, the latter especially as the inventory of Homer in terms of constructions isn't that vast, like I bet something like 70% of all lines saying along the lines of "he replied to him/her...." are either τὴν δ' ἡμείβετ' ἔπειτα ... and τὸν δ' ἀπαμειβόμενος προσέφη ... which live rent free in my head
Of course even after years some lexicon will never stick entirely, especially if it's like for example names of parts of a chariot/ship or plants/tree names(which I barely even know in my native tongue) but still, you can get to a point where the meat of the text is quite readable and enjoyable, but it requires lots of re reading.
Perhaps you aren't entirely wrong about the low frequency words being kinda annoying but I guess it's one price to pay.

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>>25309989
btw I would recommend an interlinear Iliad you can find in the mega of OP, I used that one and i makes it much easier to go through it the first time compared to having to check a lexicon on the side

>>25309989
>>25309991
The interlinear looks great, that will be handy for when I'm stuck.
>you can get to a point where the meat of the text is quite readable and enjoyable
That's reassuring, I'll aim for that then. I tend to get hung up on understanding every single word I read so I'll have to set that aside and just focus on broader comprehension

Does anyone have a Mega with the Cambridge Latin and Greek classics? I'm looking for good stuff to read with commentaries or supplementary essays.

>>25305688
I tried looking it up a bit more on vox graeca, it's hard to fully understand since I barely have any knowledge on the topic of pronounciation.

If I get it right ,

did αι had short α and it was like 1/3rd of the sound with the rest 2/3rds being ι

while ᾳ had a long α and short dropping ι so the α sound was likely 2/3rds and the rest 1/3rd ι;

>>25310683
ᾰι is fine because it's just one mora + one mora so it fits within the long-short dynamic of the language, while for ᾱι you had this situation where etymology pulled one way towards having both an ᾱ and an ι sound, hence being written down, as clearly in the Attic period the iota was still audible, but the actual speech being constrained to fixed rhythms and lengths means that you probably had that sort of compression going on, maybe the iota initially as you hinted took up less than a mora to maintain the proportion, so 4/3 for ᾱ and 2/3 for ι for a total of 2 morae but because it's a hard articulation eventually the iota was left behind in speech towards a simple long initial vowel and the iota subscript born to help grammatically

>>25310727
Would you agree with the τῷ pronounciation Luke does here in this video (16th minute).

https://youtu.be/ge-mq6ZnceU?si=bblOuq-Jcma_cVkA

>>25311427
yes, as far as the Attic system is concerned I think that's basically it, again, wouldn't get too worried about the irregularity of moraic length given the etymology, take it as granted that the length has to collapse to two morae by the nature of the language(I wonder if there exist languages that have more than two vowel lengths??), especially since 2/3 of ᾳ, ῃ and ῳ, the latter two, are also qualitatively different from ει and οι

>>25311617
just answering my own question, apparently, according to Wiki
>Very few languages distinguish three phonemic vowel lengths; some that do so are Estonian, Luiseño, and Mixe

dont you guys know the romans arent dropping any new books any time soon?
what are you even talking about in these threads

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>>25312329
>blocks you're path
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herculaneum_papyri#Vesuvius_Challenge

>>25312390
guess i stand corrected, that looks kinda cool

>>25304420
lol, and I like the Greek metoposcopia

Question about Wheelock 's latin

There are exercises within the chapter themselves. Some of these mostly the english to latin translation exercises I find quite difficult.
There's also exercises in the back of the book and a seperate workbook.

What's the best way to approach all these. Which are essential. Sorry if stupid question

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>>25287742
Here is a fun one from Heraclitus

>the life when the bow is strung ends with death

>>25313575
if they are difficult it's imho a good reason to do them, don't rush things, if they are there in the chapter it's to make sure you have properly digested the material

>>25313803
Doesn't it say something like "the name of the bow is life, but its work is death"?

>>25312329
I'm funding some expeditions to acquire some kino for my private collection. Maybe I'll let one be published for the general public for plebs like you.

>>25313959
it's a play on βίος(life) vs βιός(bow), yes, "in name it's X, but in practice it's death"

>>25312390
I kinda wish we hadn't gotten this thirsty, i.e maybe have some places to dig up in idk the near east with possible new texts, not this jurassic park tier level of work

>>25314820
Why? There are ~340 that are complete works, many more that are partial. Arent you curious?

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>>25286645
http://www.imgap.gr/file1/AG-Pateres/PDhiathiki1.html

This site contains all canonical texts both in the original koine Greek(brown) and modern demotic Greek(blue). It is provided by the Holy Metropolitan Church of Igoumenitsa. There are also epub versions that contain exclusively the koine greek text

>>25314872
yeah, what I mean is, I wish we didn't have to come down to this and we had more realistic "old school" ways like new digs planned in X site, etc..

For self-education, a really trustworthy phonological model is critical. When I look up ancient greek pronunciation, it seems like reconstructed 1st century koine has some stability to it, whereas reconstructed attic efforts seems all over the place, not to mention erasmian pronunciation. What would any hellenists on here recommend and why? I’m leaning towards koine I think.

>>25313970
I think I might have some form of dyslexia because I always get Bios mixed up with Belos (arrow). I didn’t realize until recently that Bios and Belos were two separate words.

>>25315436
It’s just way too expensive for so low a chance of a return on investment. Finding the herculaneum scrolls themselves was absurdly lucky

>>25315544
>whereas reconstructed attic efforts seems all over the place
not really tbqh, it's solid, especially since you are dealing with the system of a single city state, whereas "Koine" embraces basically an empire over multiple centuries with localized quirks

>>25315805
Sorry I decided on Lucian because he has the gall to explain his choices and reasoning sorry

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>>25315836
Lucian is fine too

>>25316151
Thanks. The joy in Greek seems to be that people will give you shit no matter what pronunciation you use, compared to Latin where even with traditional Roman pronunciation the worst you get is some anglophones or germans who will bitch about how you pronounce “caelum” despite them sounding ridiculously germanic when they say it.

>>25286593
bump

What are chinese excavated texts like?
Are any of them significant? Do people read them?

I find Wheelocks more comfy than Lingua Latina. Cambridge is the most comfy tho for nostalgia purposes

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>>25293777
>Bonus:
>Go on wikipedia, click on random article and describe what it is about.
doing this again cuz it's a fun but possibly hard challenge

>Spira Exitialis(Iter Stellare: Vector)

"Spira Exitialis" est duodecimum capitulum quartae editionis fictionis scientificae nomine Itineris Stellaris, octogesimum omnium. Anno MCMXCVII, die quarto post Idus Decembriles actum est ab Allan Kroeker, scriptum a Bryan Fuller descriptumque a Kenneth Biller atque Joe Menosky.

Res gestas saeculo vigesimo quarto p. C. n. Classis Stellaris ac Maquium narrat navis Stellaris navitarum nomine USS Voyager post relictos in regione nomine Quadrato Delta procul ab aliis Foederationis civitibus. Hoc capitulo narratur mortem, resurrectionem ac lapsum religionis personae magni momenti.

"Spira Exitialis" vox poetica est quae ducta e tragoedia 'Hamlet' a Gulielmo Shakespeare composita vitam significat.

Argumentum:
Neelix necatur plagas aliquas explorans. Arte quadam in vitam redit post undevicesimam fere horam sed cum nihil animadverterit mortuus cum esset inferorum regnorum his perculsus rebus religionem incipit dubitare. Post exploratas mentis imagines adiutore quodam quibus certior fit a sorore mortua et contubernalibus mortuis vitae nihil pretii inesse letum sibi dare constituit, sed, rogatus solatium afferre puellae cuidam portento territae, sententiam mutat decernitque pretii esse vivere.

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βάμπ

File: search-images2F22Theban_Revolt_379_BCE_Pelopidas_Spartan_garrison_expulsion_alliance_with_Athens_Second_Athenian_League22-Hoplite_fight_from_Athens_Museum.jpg (83.3 KB)

ἥκει ὁ χρόνος τελέσαι τὴν ἐμὴν στρατιωτικὴν θητείαν. ἔρρωσθε ὦ φίλοι.

>>25318202
ἔρρωσ' ὠγαθέ! μέμνησ' αἰὲν ἀριστεύειν καὶ ὑπείροχον ἔμμεναι ἄλλων

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>>25315544
the only variation of the classic Attic system I can think of is some people going for more conservative /o:/ instead of /u:/ for ου, das it mane

Is it worth studying ancient greek as a first year philosophy major?
Just finished semester 1
How hard is Plato?

>>25318526
Greek-wise, pretty clear writer, the genre itself with the back and forth style definitely helps though I haven't touched those dialogues that are often considered the hardest for the argument itself

Is Classical Chinese wikipedia well-written by people who know what they are doing or is it slop?

urgeo

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>>25318644
can't answer your question(Sinanon may, if he shows up) but I didn't know there was a classical Chinese wiki, makes me wonder why they refused the ancient Greek one then, I thought maybe they allowed Latin because it's at least linked with the Vatican
I guess perhaps there's something going on making it official on a government level perhaps?

>>25305759
>Koine Greek
Not a classical language

>>25299160
https://leftychan.net/edu/src/1608528074592-0.pdf

>>25307537
Are you drunk?

>>25320824
It's literally in the classical period.

>>25320910
Classical period (Greek and Latin), not classical Greece.

>>25320927
What are you trying to say? Koine is in the classical period no matter how you slice it. You just tried to slice Classical period generally vs specifically, and included Greece in the general period. Your IQ can't be over 60. Pretty sure I've witnessed more intelligent zoo animals.

>>25320946
Not all greek in the classical period is a classical language. Retard.

>>25320951
The literal definition of a classical language is one from the classical period. You raging moron. Holy fuccaroni. Uninstall.

>>25320960
Nope. Learn to google, fuckface.

https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=is+koine+greek+a+classical+language%3F

>>25320967
>Classical Antiquity: This period spans from the 8th century BC to the 5th century AD

Wow- thanks for Googling the refutation to yourself. You could have just conceded like a normal person, you didn't have to do my job for me.

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>>25320989
retard

>>25320990
That doesn't even make a modicum of sense. The ancient period precedes the classical period. Koine is in the classical, Byzantine takes over immediately during the early medieval period.

Bachelor's degree in history by the way.

>>25321041
ancient greek is a broader term that includes homeric, attic and koine, only attic is a classical language

Did you guys get invited into secret societies when you learned greek?

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>>25321123
waiting for the call

>>25321123
im keeping my butt cherry in tact

"classical" ITT has always meant simply a language that effectively only exists in a literary form, usually of some prestige, not as a reference to a specific period e.g classical Nahuatl would be perfectly fine ITT, even if it dates to ~500 years ago
stricto sensu though there's also the "classical" adjective referring to specific periods of specific people and their language, so classical Greece between the Archaic and Hellenistic period, classical Rome post italian wars and before the third century crisis
Koine is classic in the first sense, but not in the second, Attic in both

>>25321289
fine but you never see that guy sperging about medieval latin discussion

>>25321289
>classic
Stfu retard

>>25321356
Hating "Koine" is subtly his way of trying to drive the people only here to read the Bible out fyi. Read between the lines. Why else would he hate the dialect from which the NT is pretty much the only major work discounting minor novels and such?

>>25321852
>hate
Fucking retard

Anyone study classical japanese? How doable is it without modern Japanese? Is anything past the heian period worth reading?

duos iam dies porticus publica latinitatis nostra deficit, spero adfore nobis rursum die Solis proxuma

>>25321356
Fortasse quod lingua latina in medio aevo alia lingua non erat?

>>25321289
Recte dixisti.

>>25321852
Homines sicut ille Deum oderunt.

>>25322047
There is zero reason to be that worked up over Koine unless you just have some sort of seething hatred for Christians. You must dislike all the people discussing the ancient novels like Heliodorus?

>>25322047
Proving his point.

>>25323553
>>25323656
you're clinically retarded

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>>25323675
There’s definitely an anti-Christian undercurrent in shitting on all Latin after Tacitus and all Greek from the Septuagint onwards. Whether or not that applies to you in particular I can’t say for sure, but such people do exist and are pervasive in classics, specifically because their ideology casts themselves as “purists” and gives them supposed opponents cast as some mix of ignorant (or “clinically retarded”) and superstitious. This is made all the more absurd because medievalists and students of early modern history for example are often required to get through the same canonical golden age and attic works, some achieving greater overall unassisted reading proficiency in their languages than classical specialists. A renaissance or medieval historian cannot consult vast databases and pre-parsed scholarship for much of their work, and information on vocabulary particular to their era can be often quite limited or hard to access, requiring better overall reading ability to be functional. In short, people like that (not necessarily you) think they’re more erudite because they remain purposely ignorant or close-minded to the bulk of the West’s canonical works, which is obviously kind of gay and retarded.

If that doesn’t apply to you in particular, then whatever, it’s still an all-too-common set of attitudes normal in classics.

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>>25320990
>quora-based AI summary
Pseud. I’m not wading into greek debates so I have no opinion on how to classify koine. I’m a medievalist and latinist, but you just argue like a butthurt retard. Do you gravitate towards the classics to massage your ego by correcting people over semantics or do you actually take any of this seriously?

Koine is just slightly easier Attic. Just learn Attic, and you can mostly read Koine without many problems. I've seen parts of John used for early exercises in Attic textbooks. There are some peculiarities, but most of them aren't confusing unless you're dissecting the text.

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>Learn Latin
>do Classics
>learn some French too
>delayed start on ancient Greek, get two semesters
>really into it
>study abroad in Greece soon
>look up modern Greek
>pic related

>>25323743
Gotta read GNT and Modern Greek gospel parallels/interlinears. I'm sure since the modern grammar is more simple that you'll get reading fluency quick like that.

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>>25323537
ipsi aetatis quem Koine nuncupaverunt Graeci fortisan idem dixissent, non alia se lingua loqui ac Platonis vel Aristotelis sed quacumque deficerent facundia imperitiae tribui non inmutationi linguae ipsae, et certe fuerunt qui nostra quoque sententia propter eorum scribendi vim "Atticissantes" appellamus, quamquam ipsi fortasse increpassent nobis unam esse linguam gerrasque nos proferre aliam fingentes dialectum

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>>25323834
For me the Gospel is a fallback for something koine to study after I finish the next two semesters

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>>25324351
*ipsius
*quos

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How do I self teach Greek? I only care about reading not necessarily speaking.

>>25293777
I'll do easy but keep in my that I am retarded. :)

μελλούμεθα μάχεσθαι
πείθετε η μαχαιρά υμών ὀξεῖα εστιν
πείθεις δυνόμεν ταύτην μάχην νήκειν;

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>>25324351
Assentior tibi, quamquam epistula tua difficilis ad legendum est.

Are there any good modern Latin books? I've heard Hobbitus Ille and Harrius Potter are kind of bad translation

>>25293777
Working through hard mode. Here's my shitty attempt of the first sentence:

πορευομένων αὐτῶν κάτω τῆς ὀρεινῆς καὶ δολίας ὁδοῦ, ἔδοξαν πειθέσθαι ὅτι οὐκ οἱ ἐχθροί που ἐγγὺς αὐτῶν· τοῦ δὲ καταβάντος φύλακος αὐτῶν, ἐξαίφνης φοβερὸς καὶ μέγας ὁ κάπρος ἔστη ἐν μέσῳ τῆς ὁδοῦ αὐτῶν, καὶ οὐκ ἐφοβήθη ἐν τῷ προσώπῳ αὐτῶν.

>>25293777
Ok here is my attempt at the second sentence.

νοέων ὅτι ἡ παρουσία τῶν ἵππων τῶν αὐτῶν ἂν σκορπίζοι αὐτον ἐγγιζόντων αὐτῶν, προέβαινον, ἀλλὰ τοῖς θαύμασιν αὐτῶν ἐγένοντο ἰσχυρός ὡς ὁ ἥλιος, ἀναβαίνων τὰ ὄρη τὰ πρὸ αὐτῶν, ἐτύφλωσεν αὐτούς.

>>25324566
work through a textbook such as Hansen & Quinn and then read a few good graded readers, namely Athenaze and Reading Greek you can find audio for both if you dig a bit.

>>25324725
They’re both fine. Some Latinists just think being insufferable and having impossible standards makes them appear more wise.

>>25324566
Join us here >>25323737

>>25293777
Ok I tried to translate the whole hard part, but just a reminder that I am extremely fucking retarded.

πορευομένων αὐτῶν κάτω τῆς ὀρεινῆς καὶ δολίας ὁδοῦ, ἔδοξαν πειθέσθαι ὅτι οὐκ οἱ ἐχθροί που ἐγγὺς αὐτῶν· τοῦ δὲ καταβάντος φύλακος αὐτῶν, ἐξαίφνης φοβερὸς καὶ μέγας ὁ κάπρος ἔστη ἐν μέσῳ τῆς ὁδοῦ αὐτῶν, καὶ οὐκ ἐφοβήθη ἐν τῷ προσώπῳ αὐτῶν. νοέων ὅτι ἡ παρουσία τῶν ἵππων τῶν αὐτῶν ἂν σκορπίζοι αὐτον ἐγγιζόντων αὐτῶν, προέβαινον, ἀλλὰ τοῖς θαύμασιν αὐτῶν ἐγένοντο ἰσχυροί ὡς ὁ ἥλιος, ἀναβαίνων τὰ ὄρη τὰ πρὸ αὐτῶν, ἐτύφλωσεν αὐτούς. ἐξαίφνης δέ, οὐ κάπρος βλεφθῆναι, ἔτι κοινόν πάθος περί ὃν ἐβεβλέκείσαν ἦν σημεῖον καὶ νουθεσίαν τούτων μέλλον

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>>25324725
HP is ok, depends on whether you want to use it as learning device or read it for its own sake, it could be decent for the former too but the problem is more with the content being very removed from antiquity so a lot of it won't transfer

>>25325507
Call me Reddit but reading HP in Latin sounds so awesome.

>>25324725
Hobbitus Ille is very poor with frequent errors, which is a shame since I quite like Tolkien. Harrius is decent, like the other anon said, I'd recommend giving it a read.

>>25325605
It’s fun, I do like the Hobbit translation more. People just hate fun.

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>>25325643
See I see people online say this but then the only person I actually know with a doctorate in classics told me this wasn’t the case so I think I’m going to chalk it up to fags confusing differences of translation philosophy and choices with “mistakes,” because the translation tends towards a non-ciceronian idiom since it’s the writing of a 1950s Englishman in a very particular style put into Latin.

(Unless I’m ever provided with specific examples that are, again, not just opinions of how strictly golden age idiom ought to apply).

Some people say it’s excellent, some people say it’s serviceable. A lot of people that come off as massive dweebs say it sucks or that it will somehow damage your idiom. I’m too exhausted and sick of people like that to care at this point.

>>25325813
One would wish the complaints were just about the idioms. There are many good texts with non-Ciceronian idioms, but no, the problems run on a deep level. The translator seemed to have had poor grammar and vocabulary in general and was greatly in need of an editor. To list a few, you see everything from obvious mistranslations to him not knowing the difference between present participles and gerunds.

>“with blue hoods, silver belts, and yellow beards,”
>“cum caligis caeruleis, cingulis aureis, et barbis flauis”

>"He still had a bone or two left…,"
>“ossa una aut dua … supersunt…”

>"of his own eyes,"
>"oculorum suis."

>“he heard the same scraping, scuffling, snuffling, and growling as before.”
>"radentem eandem, rixantem, odorantem atque frementem ut ante audiuit.”

>"silly time to go practising pinching and pocket-picking..."
>"tempus stultum fuit ad exercendum furantem et subripientem e sinibus"

>>25326410
Huh, I guess you’re right, it really does seem like there’s a lot of errors that would’ve been solved by an editor. The “dua” and “suis” made me lol. Still gonna read it.

>>25326469
It might be a good learning exercise to have the English on hand and correct the translation as you go along.

>>25326410
>radentem eandem, rixantem, odorantem atque frementem ut ante audiuit.
>tempus stultum fuit ad exercendum furantem et subripientem e sinibus
The others I could excuse, but this is just baffling

>>25325255
>τοῦ δὲ καταβάντος φύλακος αὐτῶν
not sure if you didn't understand the english original but "their guard being down" means they weren't paying particular attention, not that the guard(a man) was going down
not sure what you meant to say here
>ἐγένοντο ἰσχυροί ὡς ὁ ἥλιος
ἰσχυροί?

>>25327092
Yeah I think I misunderstood some of the original English. I didn't quite understand what was meant by "charged right as the sun" but now I realize what he meant.

Who is the best Latin writer alive?

>>25326410
I would not classify all of those necessarily as outright errors. The last one is definitely strange. The one preceding it, however, it translates him (whichever charactet) perceiving the agent of those actions rather than the effect of those actions. Not exactly the same thing, but the translator could have legitimate reasons for translating that way (for example, he thought the participle endings best conveyed the color of the English -ing words).

>>25326410
>scuffling
>rixantem
That's the wrong word, right? Scuffling is another word for a shuffling sound, like with shuffling feet, not a brawl

Why don't people obsess and compete over translating hesiod as much as they do homer

>>25327792
The thought occurred to me too that it could have been meant to show that a specific actor was specifically doing those things.

>>25327792
i looked it up and it's Bilbo waking up at night, hearing a lot of weird noises outside, and then falling back asleep. seems weird to translate it as perceiving the agent

>>25328008
not as popular, also a much shorter work

>>25328008
Because Homer is exponentially more famous and widely read so if you win the translation debate millions people will read your translation, which is essentially your rewrite of the text, while a successful Hesiod translation offers far less in the way of ego gains. It has nothing to do with appreciation of either author as literature.

>>25328939
>>25329603
I guess. I was introduced to homer and hesiod at the same time and was taught both alongside each other so I've always equated the two in esteem.