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>t.

>>25321173
https://mises.org/library/book/pictures-socialistic-future
Free PDF or epub

Any normal work conducted with a modicum of sincerity or intellectual honesty will be deeply anti-Marxist by definition, it doesn't need to have "Communism debunked" as its title or even a right winger writing it

>>25321173
Aw yeah it's the third daily """stealth""" marxism thread, after OP got btfo in the last one it's on to another

>>25321173
You don't need books to debunk any of those. Just ask any of the millions of Cuban, Venezuelan or North Korean refugees why they fleed their country.

>>25321173
leszek kolakowski main currents of marxism is all you need.

>>25321231
So. Much. This.

Gusanx lived experiences are invaluable in the fight against judeo-bolshevism. The Free Press is actually freaking GREAT on this. Bari Weiss is uhh... surprisingly based on this to say the least despite erm, yknow being a (((noseberg)))

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>>25321173
Ian Steedman "marx after sraffa" to understand how Sraffa's work disproved the LTV

Sartre "The search for a method" to understand why overfocusing on class neglects the individual's agency

Laclau and Mouffe post-marxism to understand why the class divide is redundant nowadays

Pannekoek "Lenin as philosopher" to understand why rigid diamat is pseudo-scientific

Hayek "the road to serfdom" to understand why planning has a tendency to produce authoritarian figures (albeit this is more of a rebuttal to the leninist figures)

Deleuze theory of rizhomes to understand to go contra-dialectics

Historical materialism on the other hand hasn't really been disproved afaik. All of its critics rely either on mischaracterizing it as a teleological framework (it isn't outside of politically motivated pamphlets like the manifesto), or on autistically invalidating the base/superstructure dichotomy (which is secundary).
One thing you'll notice however is that all of these sources are leftist-adjacent (barring Hayek). Marx's theories were not disproved by liberals who autistically clung on property rights and on proving marginalism, but on left-leaning intellectuals who developed his theory without rejecting its core.

>>25321243
>UMMMM AKCHUALLY CHUD STARVATION AND CORRUPTION ARE *GOOD* THINGS AND IF YOU COMPLAIN YOU'RE WOKE O ALGX
you fucking retards don't even understand what you're trying to subvert

>>25321245
That's a fairly dishonest characterization. Of course people outside the religious ecosystem don't "disprove" said religious ideas within that framework: They reject the foundations of it. Popper essentially established that Marxism was a religion, not a scientific endeavor. Not that that's inherently a bad thing.

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Unironically just read BAP. In order for the great capitalist minds to create wealth, the working class has to stay both honorable and individualist. When they lose the honor that makes them loyal to their employers, or start thinking in terms of "class" instead of individuals, capitalist stops working. If Marxism were eradicated, capitalism would function fantastically

>>25321175
Uh...

>>25321252
I am a post-ironic nihilist far right 764 basedteen terrorgram child groomer who believes nothing is sacred and this is my activist carelord melty

>>25321254
>Popper essentially established that Marxism was a religion
He didn't. Popper's attack on historical materialism boils down to "but people added slop ontop to make the prophecies still hold". This is presuming a teleological framework that marxism doesn't have. It's one of the longest running myth in marxism because the manifesto was poorly written and is politically motivated. But if you look in the german ideology, Marx never says that communism must prevail like a prophecy

>"Communism is for us not a state of affairs which is to be established, an ideal to which reality will have to adjust itself. We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of things."
This is explicitly anti-prophetic. It precisely calls for a general movement. The manifesto is where he makes his prophecies, but it's because it's a political pamphlet written during times of social revolution. Engels also popularized the myth because he sought to make it more "scientific", as was the general intellectual trend of the late 19th century

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>>25321173

>>25321173
What about communism and marxism do you need debunk?
>Oh, people starve and die under communism
Okay, and? Just read about Mao's great leap forward then.

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>>25321275
>people starve and die under communism
Why do they though? Like is it always the glowies financing counter revolutionaries and overestimating casualties, or is it actually caused by theoretical issues?
Which issues exactly?

Don't know about OP, but I think that would be an interesting book to read.

>>25321245
upon some inspection Sartre ripped a lot of his theory off from Lukacs, but their temperaments were different.

>>25321173
>reading anti-something literature
Why?

>>25321173
>>25321220
>>25321231

You don't need books to he anti-communist. The best case against communism can be made just by looking at the average Chudoid rightoid racist retard. Do you think these wastes of oxygen and food deserve to own the means of production. Do you believe these things deserve to have control over their lives, their works? Do they deserve a free country? In short do they deserve communism and the answer is obviously no. The average human is impressionable cattle and deserves to be treated as such.

>>25321325
>t. typical urbanite brain rotten bugman

>>25321325
Good that society have brave revolutionists still fixing 19th century issues their leader wrote about in a book they finished halfway through and ordered an red Guevara shirt to go with their "this computer kills racist" sticker on a MacBook fighting bravely with the bad capitalism from Starbucks

Toynbee, Ellul, Robert Michels, Max Weber.

It's not that capitalism in better than Marxism, both are shit, but Marxism isn't the saviour some people would have you believe. It all ends up here, one way or another.

And no revolution is coming any time soon either.

>>25321348
Capitalism made internet possible, say sorry.

>>25321252
>still crying like a good little jewish-loving bitch
KWAB

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>>25321297
Two main reasons. Either it's engineered as a means of ethnic cleansing/repressions. This notoriously happened with the Holodomor, for the how and why "red famine" is a great book on the subject.

The second is that communal farming just doesn't work. I haven't found a solid answer as to why but they simply don't. This is plainly visible with a USDA rapport form the 60's for example where they found that the remaining 3% of sown land that remained private made up a good chunk of agricultural production an pretty much the entirety of soviet livestock production (https://esmis.nal.usda.gov/sites/default/release-files/jq085j963/bc386n66k/tx31qm85s/ERSF-08-07-1963_Agriculture_in_the_U.S._and_the_Soviet_Union.pdf - page 12)

The same thing happened in china at the same time during the great leap forward, the famine caused by the collectivization is the largest in recorded history. One of the only villages that didn't get hit by the famine was Xiaogang, as they secretly re-instituted private property (a crime punishable by death) in their communal farm. Modern Chinese agricultural policy is heavily inspired by what they've done there.

If you ask me the problem is purely with the ECP. Communism is a system heavily geared towards a classic Industrial mode of production, where there is a factory with a bunch of workers and heavy machinery. Raw materials go in, complete products go out. Communist countries usually didn't have problems with industrial production. Other sectors of the economy don't work like that. Farming especially is the kind of thing where you can do everything right and still get a bad harvest because of weather. But the quota is set from the capital and if you don't meet it you are going to be executed. This problem was made even worse in the old Warsaw pact specifically as the soviet union prioritized Russia and forced everyone else to partake in "suicidal export" to cover the shortfall, causing shortages in the satellites.

>>25321379
>One of the only villages that didn't get hit by the famine was Xiaogang, as they secretly re-instituted private property (a crime punishable by death) in their communal farm.
How did this even work? Did the crops know they were privately owned?

>>25321173
Judging by history, the Quran. Muslims have absolutely destroyed communists whenever the two have clashed: Indonesia, Afghanistan, Iran, etc.

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>>25321417
Ha. Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

>>25321417
What about Central Asia or the Caucuses? Judge again dumbass.

>>25321405
They signed a pact that divided the commune between all the families in the village into plots. Each family would farm their own plot, some of it would go to the state and to the collective but everything above that tax would be theirs to keep (rather than everything going to the the collective to be managed by the collective's bureaucrats).

They were found out after the farms next harvest exceeded the previous five years combined.

>>25321438
What about them? The communists came and went, the Chechens and Tajiks won.

>>25321173
Literally any modern academic book, unlike what retarded low IQs think about us, most of academia sees actual marxism as bullshit.

>>25321173
There's no Communism anywhere in the West, you have been propagandized and brainwashed to see it everywhere (muh vidya remasters with smaller boobs are communism!) and hate on an ideology that died a long time ago and has no power whatsoever in Europe and the US

>>25321325
SAAAAAAR

>>25321470
And where was the Chechen uprising during the USSR?
Where was the Islamic Revival against these demonic and secular forces?
Where was the Jihad against these Judeo–Bolshevik scum?

>>25321470
The rest of Central Asia is secular af though, and also very safe. Really slept on travel destination for westerners, I went to Kazakhstan and enjoyed LARPing as a yamnaya steppe warrior for a few months. Also Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan were fucking beautiful and lush.

>>25321325
Good morning sir

>>25321477
No one is saying the economy is about to be nationalized, retard. But that was never the most devious aspect of Soviet Communism in the first place. Communism very much lives on; it's been gaining ground since it won a decisive psychological victory in the Vietnam War. Everything Marxists wanted the West to be it has become. It is not at all dangerous to openly call for the Occident to be completely dismantled and its nations destroyed, though thankfully it soon will be.

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>>25321379
>Either it's engineered as a means of ethnic cleansing/repressions
This shit has nothing to do with communism. Besides, didn't more Khazakhs die than Ukrainians? Does that book talk about it?
>This is plainly visible with a USDA rapport form the 60's for example where they found that the remaining 3% of sown land that remained private made up a good chunk of agricultural production an pretty much the entirety of soviet livestock production
That's more like it. But, "between 1940 and 1960 the relative importance of the private sector in
agricultural production has declined *considerably*". The author doesn't seem to agree with you on the fact that it is bad, anon. I think the reason for that is because the industrial production of poultry is harmful to the consumer (do I need to source this claim or you are already aware of it?): and, as you can see, the eggs are a clear example of that. Secondly, they produce is "truck garden produce". And thirdly, "On these
plots, which have only about 3 to 4 percent of the sown area in the Soviet Union but a much
larger proportion of the livestock": "a much larger proportion of the livestock", anon. What larger proportion? The authors don't tell us, but it seems to me that the collective/state farms weren't focused on industrializing that sector. If you wanna criticize collectivization, maybe you should focus on wheat or something, not on a side hustle.
>One of the only villages that didn't get hit by the famine was Xiaogang, as they secretly re-instituted private property (a crime punishable by death) in their communal farm.
That feels weird. First of all, in USSR communal farming eventually worked, right? And if we take into account the Holodomor, its failures were orchestrated to do some ethnic cleansing, so it could have worked right from the start in USSR. Why didn't it work in China then? Did they try to implement the faulty Holodomor-style kind of communal farming?
>This problem was made even worse in the old Warsaw pact specifically as the soviet union prioritized Russia and forced everyone else to partake in "suicidal export" to cover the shortfall, causing shortages in the satellites.
Any source on that? Bonus points if it's with the structural issues that would cause the shortage.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1948-03-25/debates/1c07d853-b29e-4d55-822d-9f88f94c1382/SovietExports
They were exporting meat to the UK in 1948, anon.
https://www.theodora.com/wfb1991/soviet_union/soviet_union_economy.html
And they kept exporting agricultural produce till 1991.

>>25321379
I still don’t buy that the Holodomer was some targeted genocide shit. This isn’t Reddit so we don’t have to make an event hecking racist and Nazi tier as a prereq to recognize its le bad.

>>25321486
Obviously it would be wrong to claim that communist rule will immediately fail in a Muslim region. It will inevitably fail but they may take decades, especially when a powerful outside force like the Russians in Chechnya/Central Asia or the Chinese in East Turkestan is there to force it down the people’s throats. Still, once a region is majority Muslim the region will forever have Islamic rule as its natural state. It may deviate for a time but it will return to that state. Look at Chechnya now, it has returned to its natural state as an Islamic government. It took decades but it happened, you won’t find communists there now. Communism, or at least Marxism-Leninism will always face this fate in Muslim countries, as it has historically done so in Africa, Asia and European Muslim nations.

>>25321499
>The rest of Central Asia is secular af though
Give it time. The people are Muslim and they will unlearn the legacy of communist rule.

>>25321173
anything that focuses on genetics. Communism works as long as there is a good genetic stock. This a truthnuke neither side wants to accept.

>one agricultural policy made by one country went bad
>Let's throw the entire body of Marx's work out the window.

This is why no one takes anti-marxists seriously.

>>25321263
What is BAP?

>>25321607
It's a gay sex thing

Oh I see, it's a twatter account. Can't even escape X screenshots on the literature board. *sulk*

>>25321635
>*sulk*
Quit moping and make a better thread then, faggot.

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>>25321640
sigh

>>25321325
>>25321527
It's people like this why I truly believe that marxist/communism is the opium of the resentful.
It's speaks to me of people who are jealous of those who are successful or lucky in life, while themselves haven't achieved or made anything of value, so they make it up with this faux-activism that will save humanity. They speak of this so-called equality, but what they really want is to degrade everything to their lower status. Rather than building their own fortune or attempt to build one so their descendants have a better life than them, they would rather eradicate those who already built or inherited one. The reality is that they don't wanna help minorities or lesser classes to improve, but rather, they want to bring everyone down to their misery. As a consequence, they live in a childish dichotomy in which the "good" guys are them (and whoever who agrees with them), while the rest are terrible people that must be tortured and vilified. They are filled with so much hatred and vitriol because they are unable to create or be original, they always have to take and coopt everything so that it agrees with them. And what they cannot appropriate, they have to destroy. Which in itself is a perfect analogy for their ideals: a system that can only sustain itself on the riches made from others until it runs out and the system itself collapses, just as we have seen during the last century.
Capitalism is hardly an ideal system, but in this case is the lesser of two evils until someone finds a better alternative.
>>25321582
I can't believe Russia, China, North Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, Venezuela and the entirety of eastern Europe was one country all along.

>>25321658
Your whole post is just an extremely long ad hominem. You could have just said "marxists are hypocrites".
>Capitalism is hardly an ideal system, but in this case is the lesser of two evils until someone finds a better alternative
We are not talking about capitalism, anon. Why would you even bring it up? We are talking about why communism is bad (this is an anti-marxist thread), theoretically speaking (this was what I specifically asked).

>>25321681
Nah, an ad hominem would be a quick dismissive reply that fails to analyze the argument and instead attacks the author, just like you did and will continue to do so.

>>25321325
TRVTH NVKE

>>25321705
>an ad hominem would be a quick dismissive reply that fails to analyze the argument
You did not analyse my argument. You started your post with "It's people like this". You analyzed the author.
Besides, it doesn't present any counter argument, so your analysis doesn't move forward the discussion.
>just like you did
I didn't call you in any way, shape or form.
If you think I did, how did I call you?

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>>25321173

>>25321731
>more bitter ad hominem
Zzz...

>>25321325
Your unstated assumptions reveal a deeply diseased mind. People "deserve" the consequences of their actions, good and bad no matter how retarded they are. The only way anyone can own le means of production is if they can own land and be left alone by retards like you.

>>25321527
>They were exporting meat
Like your graphic points out in a centralized economy that doesn't mean they were meeting local demand, from the start they were exporting food grown by starving people who resorted to cannibalism while the fruits of their labour was stolen from them and exported. The central government needed to export for foreign currency to import goods they didn't produce locally and to line their own pockets. Claiming this is "communal farming working" is deranged.
The closest thing to communal farming ever working is privately owned syndicalist farms competing on the open market. What works even better to raise living standards is when workers simply own shares of a publicly traded farm.

>>25321243
>Communist tries shitty half baked incoherent fake anti semitism in order to manipulate the chuds
It's literally sickening how dishonest you 'people' are. It's like breathing to you

>>25321553
No, it doesn't. It failed among the Puritans, a group of excellent genetic stock, small community, homogeneous blah blah. Basically every positive preconception and it still failed. It's just shit and counter to our nature.

>>25321582
>one policy
>one country
Why are communists such liars. It's outrageous

>>25321790
>Like your graphic points out in a centralized economy that doesn't mean they were meeting local demand,
What graphic are you talking about? The map? It ends in the year 1934, 14 years before 1948.
>from the start they were exporting food grown by starving people who resorted to cannibalism while the fruits of their labour was stolen from them and exported
Source? Quoting from that anon's source:
>Foreign trade in agricultural commodities in the Soviet Union, which is carried out through a government monopoly, has been considerably less important to the economy of the since World War I than agricultural foreign trade of the United States. Generally the Soviet Union has aimed to be self-sufficient in its industrial and agricultural
production,
They didn't have the need (nor, as it seems, the desire) to starve their people.
>The central government needed to export for foreign currency to import goods they didn't produce locally and to line their own pockets.
When it comes to meat exports the authors say:
>The Soviet Union also exports relatively small amounts of meat and dairy products,
If they need to export in order to import, they ain't exporting meat. Probably, it going to be crude oil (judging by the CIA 1991 factbook).
>The closest thing to communal farming ever working is privately owned syndicalist farms
What about the cooperatives that the Nazis created to substitute the collective farms?
>own shares of a publicly traded farm.
Didn't the Russians do that during the Perestrojka?

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>>25321790
>is deranged
>>25321807
>It's outrageous
Are you guys triggered? Shaking right now?

I'm not even a fucking commie, but chuds are such fucking snowflakes. I miss the alt-right. I miss /stormfront/.

>>25321833
What the fuck are you babbling about. Go away then

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>>25321839
>Nooo, leave us alone!!!
Oooh, poor chuddy wants a safe space? To cry about the commies being big, nasty liars?
Post a single fucking book that actually is anti-marxist, anon, instead of being "outraged" by a guy making a generalization, or fuck off back to plebbit.

>>25321379
>I haven't found a solid answer as to why but they simply don't.
Factually, it's literally because the peasants refused to work. That's it. The farmers literally preferred burning their livestock and doing the bare minimum to not get the death penalty.

>ECP
It's not the ECP. The ECP doesn't apply to economies with some form of accounting. What you're describing is the information problem that Hayek pointed towards.

>>25321243
dear God you write like a snake

>>25321173
Defectors & documentation they provided. The US right remains kosherly retarded to the degree that British agents (like Buckley & Kissinger) institutionally marginalized The John Birch Society (Neo-Palestine is a quarter ethnic Russian of Soviet vintage, the kinds of scientists Bibi glazes— Orange shabbos' craven slavishness is worse than it might appear).

>>25321379
>worker barracks regime
>consumer market is strangled as much as possible to devote capital to war
>'post'-Sino-Soviet states are doing the same to a marginally lesser degree + geopolitical kayfabe for some never to materialize opportunity to do a WMD abomination without destroying themselves with the blowback

>>25321417
>Red-Green Alliance

They work hand in glove

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>>25321173
>false flag thread
Typical Trotskyite tactic. YWNBAW.

>>25321658
>It's people like this why I truly believe that marxist/communism is the opium of the resentful.

That's the energy source, 'serious' Reds are only using them & 'scientific socialism' as means to the end. "THERE IS NO MARXIST DOGMA!" What Lenin meant is it's entirely contingent and subject to revision: whatever advances the interests of the International can be undertaken at any time, for any reason. Only the Party Vanguard matters. And the trouble with Democrats is they won't be in the driver's seat to use American power were they ever to be successful, to become what the USSR was, as "the armed center of socialist revolution worldwide." — They are only destabilization agents for foreign interests.

>>25321325
>the working class doesn't deserve communism because it's just so superior, only intellectuals like myself understand it's superiority
Huh, this makes it very easy to understand why communism turned out to be a totalitarian state instead of withering the state away. I'm sure this is how communists thought and currently think and it's why Lenin created a vanguard. These deluded, resentful freaks really thought if only they had the reigns to society and could manage everyone that they could create a utopia.

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>>25321864
Here you go
You are clearly the only one having some sort of emotional reaction fyi

>>25321325
Holy based making these unread retards seethe

>>25321802
lol, nice headcanon

>>25322070
*reins

>>25322105
>He doesn't know
Look up the journals. They talk about how they tried collective farming and almost starved to death, then went back to private property and flourished, and so had thanksgiving in celebration.

>>25321807
Notice how communists can only attack and deflect but never defend. Their whole argument is chimping out and calling everyone a chud rather than postulating why Marxism is good or works against people pointing out all its faults. It's infantile, jejune.

>>25321527
>This shit has nothing to do with communism. Besides, didn't more Khazakhs die than Ukrainians? Does that book talk about it?

Yes it does. It's main purpouse is to describe how the holodomor was deliberately engineered.

>That's more like it. But, "between 1940 and 1960 the relative importance of the private sector in
agricultural production has declined *considerably*". The author doesn't seem to agree with you on the fact that it is bad, anon. I think the reason for that is because the industrial production of poultry is harmful to the consumer (do I need to source this claim or you are already aware of it?): and, as you can see, the eggs are a clear example of that. Secondly, they produce is "truck garden produce". And thirdly, "On these
plots, which have only about 3 to 4 percent of the sown area in the Soviet Union but a much
larger proportion of the livestock": "a much larger proportion of the livestock", anon. What larger proportion? The authors don't tell us, but it seems to me that the collective/state farms weren't focused on industrializing that sector. If you wanna criticize collectivization, maybe you should focus on wheat or something, not on a side hustle.

By all means. The CIA was keeping a very close eye on soviet agriculture since they identified it as a weak spot. Here (https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/cold-war-intelligence/2024-11-20/was-ussr-producing-enough-food) you can find a collection of reports from the entire cold war that speaks for itself. They started out strong and were exporting grain just fine, before getting hit by a drought in 1963. The drought was a result of the so called Great Plan for the Transformation of Nature, which was a massive geoengineering project under Stalin. It's best known for drying the aral sea for cotton but a lot of smaller marshes were also dried out, causing droughts in EE to this day.

After 1963 the USSR was a net grain importer for the rest of it's existence.

>That feels weird. First of all, in USSR communal farming eventually worked, right? And if we take into account the Holodomor, its failures were orchestrated to do some ethnic cleansing, so it could have worked right from the start in USSR. Why didn't it work in China then? Did they try to implement the faulty Holodomor-style kind of communal farming?

Pretty much, they copied the USSR in a fashion that made the Bolsheviks look like sensible reformers in comparison. While the USSR implemented both Kolhozes which were largely independent and Sowhozes, which were massive state owned farms. The kolhozes kinda worked very similarly to what the people of Xiaogang figured out, except the total surplus was divided up evenly instead of who produced how much on their plot.

Mao instead jumped straight into the "peoples communes" which were more like the Sowhozes. Massive farms centrally managed by the state. They also had a couple other ideas. First was the infamous sparrow killing campaign.

>>25321325
This. Literally the best part of the USSR was that it was ruled by a high IQ nomenklatura where low IQ retards hardly had a say. If it was actually true socialism/communism n shiet Russians would have fucked it up.

>>25322160
Cont.

The people were told to kill sparows, so they did. They did it a bit to well causing a massive reduction in the sparrow population. Sparrows eat crop-eating bugs. The bugs surged in population and ate a ton of crops.

Second was the backyard furnace plan. It was an early version of a tactic china uses to this day to look better. They produce useless things to boost economic markers. So they pulled peasants of farm work and told them to make steel in primitive furnaces. The steel was useless but it made china look more industrialized since steel is often used as a marker. I've heard that they were even melting down farm tools to meet quotas but can't find a source for that happening at scale.

Finally local officials were fudging the numbers to make themselves look better. So once the central planners got all the data it appeared that they had more grain than they actually did. So they earmarked that fictional surplus for export. Given how the actual amount of grain was lower, the local officials were sending the produce that was supposed to go to the peasantry for export to avoid getting caught. Mind you this happened at basically every level.

Add to that a very perverse incentive structure where no matter how much you worked the outcome was the same, which led to the "May you stand or lay down you deserve 3k" (Polish joke form PRL times) mindset, lower level of mechanization and a far larger population caused the deadliest famine in human history.

>Any source on that? Bonus points if it's with the structural issues that would cause the shortage.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1948-03-25/debates/1c07d853-b29e-4d55-822d-9f88f94c1382/SovietExports
They were exporting meat to the UK in 1948, anon.
https://www.theodora.com/wfb1991/soviet_union/soviet_union_economy.html
And they kept exporting agricultural produce till 1991.

Kornai's "Economics of Shortage" is the definitive source.

And yes, they were also exporting to the west, but it was usually a very small amount (1-5% GDP). They mostly did that to acquire hard currency like USD or GBP. The soviet rubble was essentially monopoly money so they needed dollars for international trade.

>>25322173
Pretending to be racist against Russians while sucking off "the good ones" who are communists has to be the gayest thing I have read all week.

>>25322292
Bud, you jerk off to fat dysgenic jews like Moldbugman

>>25322305
NTA but what a stupid worthless thing to write. Nobody "jerks off" to Moldbug so why are you even saying that

>>25322142
The headcanon I am referring to is that you think Anglos are not genetic trash

>>25321477
Communist ideology was just one of the many puppets used by the real ideology, which is resentful jewish morality. This system of values is thoroughly anti-life and it is stronger than ever, including amongst self-professed communists. It doesn't matter that they don't read Marx and that they don't understand economic determinism, etc. It was never about that. It was about the eschatology.

>>25322842
Retarded

>>25321173
Kerry Bolton

>>25322091
>Posts nigger book
Kek.
>You are clearly the only one having some sort of emotional reaction fyi
Normal men get repulsed by sissies. It's hardwired in our biology.
>>25322160
>Yes it does
It's called "war on Ukraine", not "war on Kazakistan". And it keeps coming back to fucking Ukraine.
>Clearly there is a case for a close examination of the ‘special’ famine in Penza. There is an even more urgent case for a closer examination of the famine in Kazakhstan, where the very high mortality rate also indicates something much more sinister than negligence. But that should not negate the need for a recognition of the special circumstances of the famine in Ukraine.
More Kazakhs died than Ukrainians, and she is like "whatever, they just forced them to settle and this is why they died".
And just by skimming that book, I am noticing that the central government didn't create the famine to kill Ukrainians, they were actually having a hierarchy for who should get the food first (Russian big cities). But I can't find if Ukrainian big cities were blacklisted, or if they were a priority too. Kiyv, afaik, was filled with Russians atp in time.
That said, this is about what they did to fix issues caused by the famine, not what caused the famine itself.
>The CIA was keeping a very close eye on soviet agriculture since they identified it as a weak spot.
Interesting source. Thanks.
>It's best known for drying the aral sea for cotton but a lot of smaller marshes were also dried out, causing droughts in EE to this day.
This has more to do with science than with politics, no? Lysenko's fault. I could implement his theories and it would fail.
It's like blaming the fall of birthrates in the Roman Empire on it being an Empire, rather than lead poisoning.
Does that mean that there was some shitty Biologist even before that, that caused the 1930 famine?
>The kolhozes kinda worked very similarly to what the people of Xiaogang figured out, except the total surplus was divided up evenly instead of who produced how much on their plot
So that's why the cooperatives worked under Nazi control.
>>25322244
>The people were told to kill sparows, so they did.
This is biology again.
>They produce useless things to boost economic markers.
This is an issue with any economy that relies on accountancy.
>local officials were fudging the numbers
Corruption. Not communism. And that system works pretty well, now that there is much less corruption in China.
https://youtube.com/shorts/qs3TjHwrZcg
>no matter how much you worked the outcome was the same
Speaking of which https://youtube.com/shorts/9r6THCHvc9w and https://youtube.com/shorts/rLG2Yo7IEBQ. Quiet quitting, Neijuan,... This is the most evident example that these communist systems were failing for the same reasons that the current system is.

>>25322244
2/2
The only real issue that I see is the implementation of concrete practices on a structural level. "Let's use Lysenko for all land development", "Let's make everyone kill sparrows", almost as if Marx himself talked about them or something.
These kind of changes need to be gradual and tested with limited implementation before making them part of the "structure" itself. If anything, it would be more communist that way, since it would lead to a more scientific approach to changes.

And thanks for the book.

>>25322331
Still crying, jewboy, and playing obtuse? Makes sense considering you have down’s syndrome and incapable of doing anything other than kvetching

>>25323137
>These kind of changes need to be gradual and tested with limited implementation
Wish all social ideas did this, but when it's part of an ideology it's either great for everyone or it should be banned for everyone. There is no middle ground and new ideas are judged by how well they fit the ideology and not on any sort of reasonable metric.

>now that there is much less corruption in China.
compared to what? Xi has been on a corruption purge since he took power. Which would be great except he only purges corruption from those that are not loyal to him, the same thing happened under Jiang Zemin(Hu Jintao was just a puppet for Jiang) where they allow loyalist corruption to flourish but punish the disloyal. It's about the same amount of corruption the only thing different is who gets to do it.

>>25323158
Do you know what 'NTA' means, newfag? This board doesn't need your bad, boring posts, is all I chimed in to say.

>>25321216
Ah yes, the Austrian school of economics. I wonder which countries their policies have created prosperity in? Oh right, none, because Keynes so utterly annihilated their economics that every major country in the world adopts Keynesian models in order to be able to compete at all.

>>25321658
Key phrase in that whole post is "lucky in life". Yeah, if some people get wealthy and prosperous through luck, and others work long hours for bare subsistence through bad luck, that seems like a genuine and legitimate grievance, no? Like maybe society should attempt to equalize luck so that hard work is the actual determination of whether someone prospers or not? What is wrong with that view?

>>25324114
Because it didn't work. Trying to create equality of outcome instead creates death and tyranny.

>>25324157
I just said to create equality of opportunity/starting point and allow work ethic to be what creates different outcomes. Did you not read my post?

>>25321173
It's called 'Make a living solely from your garden / notebooks, when you realize how hard that is you'll dislike these ethoses for telling you how hard and unfair work can be and give up on your garden / notebooks but then you'll néver make a living of your garden / notebooks so you might as well try again and try more and then you succeed anyway'

>>25321173
Wait, you dón't want to farm, dónt want to construct? You knów what those tools, the hammer and the sickle, are fór, right? How are you gonna eat when nobody farms? How are you gonna have a roof over your head when nobody builds?

>>25324105
Not even in Austria, since it's an Austrian school?

I don't know much economics, I'm not debating you. Well, 'oikos nomos, the word of the house'. As far as I understand it: I have to work in my house.

>>25324244
You are saying people should be rewarded based on the amount of labor they put in. That is controlling the outcome.

File: 01Castaneda-superJumbo.jpg (1.3 MB)

>>25321658
>It's people like this why I truly believe that marxist/communism is the opium of the resentful.
>>25322012
>That's the energy source, 'serious' Reds are only using them & 'scientific socialism' as means to the end. "THERE IS NO MARXIST DOGMA!" What Lenin meant is it's entirely contingent and subject to revision: whatever advances the interests of the International can be undertaken at any time, for any reason. Only the Party Vanguard matters.
I think the issue is that the concept of what the "party vanguard" is mutated. Some Trotskyists (bear with me) argue that Lenin didn't really advocate a vanguard party, but a party *of* the vanguard, which is a different thing. What that "vanguard" is, is the working class. The working class itself is the vanguard, and the working class needed its own party.

One thing to keep in mind is there was less distance in time between the revolutions of 1848 in Europe and 1917 than there is between 1917 and 2016. Like it was kind of assumed that different classes had different parties and even their own party militia (musket + cannon). Before the revolution in Russia, Lenin and his associates called themselves revolutionary social democrats, which is like saying you're a "Forty-Eighter" with a red flag. We don't really have that. Marxism-Leninism is basically a dogma that was created by Stalin to justify his version of Marxism. A big problem that blew up the earlier version (that was getting popular in Germany in the 1890s) is that they believed in a socialist revolution happening in Germany but that failed during an attempt when the German Empire collapsed at the end of World War I.

The Trots are not just saying this. Lenin openly wrote about moving his HQ to Berlin from Moscow as soon as possible, and if the German revolution didn't happen then "we're doomed." That didn't happen so they set up a modified version of capitalism in Russia (basically state capitalism).

>>25321173
Ben Shapiro's oeuvre

>>25321175
this will never not be funny

>>25321807
no mass famine in cuba or vietnam, why is hat?

>>25324105
>I wonder which countries their policies have created prosperity in?
I wonder which states were willing to implement anti-state economics?

post-structuralism generally

>>25324157
It can work with sexual reproduction, which is next stage of development

>>25325362
That kinda proves the point though. Libertarian ideas lead to vulnerability because some centralized force, whether a state, a warlord, a gang, will always fill that power vacuum. Thus, anti-state ideas push a population to be vulnerable to domination by some larger force. Better to create a controlled state that is responsive to the populace, a tamed leviathan.

>>25324114
>that seems like a genuine and legitimate grievance, no?
A grievance against whom? God, fate, karma?

>>25321325
based

>>25321325
It's so funny how this whole thread is this subhuman pajeet replying to itself thinking that it would somehow validate his shitty opinion.
>>25324114
>that seems like a genuine and legitimate grievance, no?
No, it's called envy and resentment.

>>25321173
Karl Marx, Critique of the Gotha program.
Friedrich Engels, Anti-Dühring.

>>25325905
Against society, the thing created by human beings and can thus be changed by human beings.

>>25326071
>No, it's called envy and resentment.
Yeah but, like, objectively there are grounds to be envious and resentful because those people are actually being wronged. Unless you just dismiss of justice entirely, in which case you reveal yourself as a repugnant person and everything just becomes power anyway, in which case violent revolution cannot be opposed, since that would just be the wealthy and comfortable being jealous and resentful of the prospect of their position being taken. Either play by the rules of fairness or expose yourself as a hypocrite.

>>25321607
I'm guessing it's Bronze Age Pervert whose moniker appears in at the top of the >>25321263
png.

>>25321173
Kolakowski Main currents of Marxism 3 vol

>>25326077
Explain

>>25325821
>Libertarian ideas lead to vulnerability because some centralized force, whether a state, a warlord, a gang, will always fill that power vacuum.
The power vacuum can be filled by voluntarily formed rights enforcement agencies with interlocking arbitration agreements.

>>25326773
>The power vacuum can be filled by voluntarily formed rights enforcement agencies with interlocking arbitration agreements.
lol. lmao.

>>25326781
Stranger things have happened.
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2LbGlXSbRo

>>25321607
He's a larping Jew propagandist who's bankrolled Peter Theil. Totally factual, not exaggerating.

>>25326796
*bankrolled by

>>25321173
Anything by Ayn rand.

>>25321173
you're supposed to be on that other site if you want to get questions like this answered. you know, the thing with the little orange antenna.

>>25321325
genius

>>25321220
ah, yes. in the same way that a three sided figure is a triangle and that Trump is a felon and a rapist.

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>>25326892
Pretty sure r*dditniggers perma ban anyone that criticize kikes like Karl marx or anything related to communism. Btw u have to go back faggot.

>>25321173
A Gentleman In Moscow

>>25326231
>Yeah
Ok, good to know you agree.

File: 67457345345.jpg (142.2 KB)

>>25321173
central banking drives people insane

>>25324114
That's the main issue. All dynamic systems have luck component, just make sure that the outcome variance of luck is taxed a bit more and get that money to those who lack it. No need to go full communist, Christian Democracy and Social Democracy are kinda on point.

>>25325362
Austrian economics is not anti state. The Dolfuss Austrofascist government implemented them with Mises as a chief advisor.

>>25321173
Any books which discuss stoical starvation

>>25321173
There's been some European resistance to communism and marxism, Nicolas Gomez Davila, Augusto del Noce and Henri de Lubac (on atheism in marxism and communism), Manoel Joaquim de Carvalho (against marxist philosophy), a few people in France, Alain de Benoist, Jean Madiran, Jean Daujat, Guillaume Faye. Thomas Molnar. Eric Voegelin is interesting in analysing marxism as a form of modern political religion. There's the usual cast of liberals, Austrian school plus Popper, Raymond Aron, Isaiah Berlin. Pretty much everything in English from Leszek Kołakowski. To debunk marxism in history, Martin Malia and François Furet are superior to Richard Pipes.

But really, as has already been said, I do not really see the point of waging war on marxism and communism. It is such a vast and all-encompassing system that you will lose your mind. It's an ocean of literature, criticism, and argumentative people that are each more futile and ill-intentioned than the last. It is an endless heap of bad faith. I tried debating them in the past, now I simply ignore the whole beast. In any way, it is collapsing the hard way, so just sit and wait.

>>25326225
But not individual human beings. Society is a collectivistic creation.
Yet oddly, it's the collectivists who keep complaining about it ...

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>>25327505
>In any way, it is collapsing the hard way, so just sit and wait.
Sh'yeah... that's true. If you're talking about the actual historical regimes that called themselves communist. Often communists develop a kind of organizational loyalty where they go, the regime has to do X in order to defend against [enemies] who are trying to stand in the way of "history." It's like being on a mission in a battle. But over time that sense of purpose weakens and the whole structure collapses surprisingly quickly.

Take Venezuela for example. The PSUV was not strictly speaking communist, but definitely aligned in a broad sense with the hard international left in a broad-front or coalition. Then one day it falls over in five minutes. Okay, strictly speaking they're still in power, but whatever it "was" is finished. But the structure had already rotted out from the inside, it had become an increasingly grubby, corrupt military organization that only vaguely appeared "left" because of international alignments. It's happening to Cuba as well.

>François Furet
Looks interesting, thx.

>>25324871
you have to actively try to have a famine in a moist, (sub)tropical region with a year-round growing season, or just have a country full of fucking retards (Haiti).

>>25326785
You can't have "rights enforcement" by private interests. That's an oxymoron. You need an independent power that is held accountable, kind of like "of the people, by the people, for the people", not a competing collection of death squads for hire.

>>25327245
I can understand why you wouldn't recognize a "but", having never actually seen one before.

>>25327446
This is my solution as well. Liberty is of prime importance, and the way to secure liberty for all is through the taxation of the lucky/wealthy in order to provide opportunity to the unlucky/poor.

>>25327887
Human beings are inherently social. Anywhere there are humans, there will be society. You just betray your ignorance if you think you can either ignore or destroy this fundamental human force. You only begin to be an adult and involved in the conversation when you begin to ask how we can direct this leviathan in a better direction.

>>25322173
>it was ruled by a high IQ nomenklatura where low IQ retards hardly had a say.
this never happened though.
also
>Lysenkoism
you're such a fucking retard lmao.

>>25327449
How is Austrofascism even fascism if they consulted someone like Ludwig Von Mises?

>>25326900
Whats wrong with rapists and felons? I'm history has had plenty of them with other leaders but why is it an issue with Trump all of the sudden?

>>25328137
>He replies to a video of a society governed by private interest for roughly 400 years.
A private individual can create a firm that protects its subscribers from aggression. There's nothing contradictory about that.
>You need an independent power that is held accountable
The firms are held accountable by the market and by competing firms. It's laughable that you think a territorial-monopoly on force is more accountable than that because of muh democracy.

>>25321173
The Gulag Archipelago

>>25321231
SAAAAR THIS NOT REAL SOCIALISM SAAR

>>25328209
If you look at it closely "fascism" basically doesn't mean anything. I've spent like a decade trying(not very hard or intensively) to figure out a coherent all inclusive definition and I haven't. Too many people use it in too many completely different ways. My personal definition is "a system that considers the state morally superior to the people".

>>25329130
https://politicalresearch.org/2016/12/12/what-fascism

>>25321173
I wouldn't call this the "best book" so nobody better freak their tits out over it, but as a derivative work Peterson's 12 Rules is really good as an accessible lowkey primer to understanding and grappling with marxist resentment. Despite the whole self help guru stylings of the title that isn't really the kind of book it is.

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>>25329130

>>25329130
Fascism is when the government does mean stuff

>>25329130
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_ReESRfV8g

>>25329207
You can call any group trying to change society resentful and then concoct some elaborate but ultimately false psychological profile with which to attack them. This is quite literally the essence of ad hominem argumentation.

>>25328121
so you agree, famine is not a consequence of communism?

>>25328961
>Thinking a tiny bit of land with a couple hundred people which was recognized by both governmental powers on either side of it and still had a ruling council of elders proves anything
>"Muh for-hire death squad companies are gonna be hecking ethical because... they just are, okay?"
What do you think "competing" looks like among purveyors of violence?

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>>25321173
Not directly anti-Marxist, but you'll realize the author is a retarded tankie.
It was released in 2021 before Russia invaded Ukraine.
Once the Nordstream 2 was destroyed, he criticized the incident saying it was for the wrong reason and it could lead to an ecological disaster.
What did he think would happen to the environment when advocating to sabotage oil pipelines?
He's pretty much gone silent once Russia's refineries were targeted. Same with all the anti-oil protesters.

>>25329533
>What do you think "competing" looks like among purveyors of violence?
Providing better, faster, protection of the assets of clients. Not wasting resources getting into pointless wars (democratic states seem to have a problem with this one). If you think that competition among security services would lead to more violence and chaos, then logically you must be in favor of a one world government.

>>25329163
Way too broad of a definition. It applies more to the first Reich than the third, which is the bogeyman evoked by casual use of the term. Typical.
>>25329209
Fascism is for faggots (derogatory)
>>25329252
THIS!!!!!! HASHTAG RESIST!!! WE NEED TO DEFEAT THE FASCISM OF NOT LETTING ME DRINK AND DRIVE!!!!
>>25329327
I'm not going to watch this but the first minute is better than I expected. I dislike the WELL AKCHUALLY quality of doing so but trimming down "fascism" specifically to what Mussolini was larping about is not a bad idea. I agree with him that they are religions (evil ones).

>>25329637
>democratic states seem to have a problem with this one
Lolwut. Google "WW1", it'll blow your mind. Monarchies (not that I hate monarchies) started it.