>>25327938
Edgy dude sick literature thread

Some people would rather follow the truth than invent new ways to reject Christ.

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>>25327938
Because they are drawn to reason, truth, beauty, and goodness, rather than embracing sophistries that justify their sins.

>>25327938
>How do you explain the fact that some people adhere to catholic ""philosophy"" past the age of 18?

Muslim here, ideally they would become Muslim, but this is alright I guess. Sadly most Christian countries now are just atheist hellholes that celebrate sodomy, women's rights, transgenderism, abortion, and sexual freedom.

The fact that you actually believe people over 18 can't believe in some transcendent philosophy shows that most people in the west believe in nothing at all. Most Europeans are hylics who are slaves to American consumerism

>>25327996
Everyone "seeks to follow the truth" lmao. If you knew anything about the classical tradition you larp you would know that.

>>25328019
>prove to me that someone can think something while believing it to be false
>prove to me that someone can do something while perceiving it to be wrong (i.e. not to be done)
protip, you can't, and the tradition you larp actually agrees with me on this, except when it comes to drawing the conclusions.

>>25328037
>Everyone "seeks to follow the truth" lmao.
You can't even quote someone without lying or distorting their words lmao.
It is not the case that everyone wants to follow the truth, as evidenced by your own lie.

>>25328034
False dichotomy. That and nobody is an "atheist".

>>25328047
>False dichotomy
not really, most Europeans here genuinely don't believe in anything, I asked some "conservatives" what should happen to a woman if she cheats on her husband, normally she would be killed for adultery. They just said divorce etc. same as for premarital sex, most are fine with it, same as homosexuality. Top that off with the European slavish nature for worshipping American culture, and you get a people who have been conquered. Also nobody is an atheist, people have a natural fitra for the truth and to seek Allah(SWT)

>>25328046
A mistake is not a lie, and a lie is not proof that someone does not seek the truth. (I can believe something, know it to be true, and at the same time believe that I ought to withhold that truth from others)

Incidentally, it is a truism that all seek the truth, as believing something and believing it to be true are one and the same thing. Everyone thinks, deliberates, evaluates, and arrives at conclusions, and the very principle of that is desire for the truth. Again, you would know that if you knew the tradition you larp, which you don't.

cultural contrarianism plus extremely convoluted apologetics built over thousands of years. every ridiculous religious claim is supported by many ridiculous arguments and those by many others so that refuting each claim and assumption becomes a chore many don't deal with.

>>25327938
If you are over the age of 18 and don't mature into a double-Dutch determinist Calvinoid cessationist dingleberry fresh off the Mayflower, still in your chastity belt and witch-blood stained pajamas and big black hat . . . you would then be some kind of secular humanist or Hegelian or whatever . . . but surely not mackerel-snapping, steak-skipping, snake-trampling, Eucharist-digesting, bead-caressing, meal-blessing Roman Catholic.

>>25328034
Yes, but in free Christian nations we have the freedom to choose to be good or evil by our own volition. We assent to what is conscienable, while you Muslims are all compelled to feign assent to something which you know to be schlerotic, sophistic, false, immoral, and thus unanimously unconscionable. Christians have the pleasure of being able to say they freely chose God; Muslims have the displeasure of necessarily living in an empire of lies and bestial corruptions to religion. Indeed, western nations haven't a moral fabric which is intact, but our religious fabric is unfettered by theocracy, which ruins everything. Sure, we are liable to every corruption under the sun, including heresy, within our nations, but our true-religion is intact where your lands permit it not to exist by the necessitation of the utter sclerosis which is coerced conformity to a lusty devil-religion based in love of rape.

>>25328056
>Again, you would know that if you knew the tradition you larp, which you don't.
There you go, lying again. You have no idea who I am or what I believe. You don't know what my traditions are or are not. Neither did you ask me for the truth.

Once again, you have demonstrated not everyone seeks the truth. You have not even sought the truth in this brief exchange.

>>25328125
>Yes, but in free Christian nations we have the freedom to choose to be good or evil by our own
The last execution in Europe for cheating was in the 17th century, which is a good thing.

your whole post is actually a snarky way of insulting Europeans and trying to prove they were always feminized pussies lmao, why is when people argue against islam they always try to do it from a liberal atheistic point of view? Like somehow it's bad to kill adulterers and homosexuals, but only because it's against liberalism. and "white people never did that" they did actually and it was back when they were based

>>25327938
it's even weirder when youtube christians keep citing these ancient fucks, surely there's been something more modern thought up?

>>25327938
I’d say it’s part millennial fundie-guilt rebounding post 30, part overcorrection against the New Atheism zeitgeist in the 00’s and 10’s, and part online astroturf as a hedge against ‘antisemitic’ ideation amongst the youth with crusaderlarp nonsense.

But Abrahamic religions overall are still in their terminal nosedive in western countries and will steadily creep into cultural irrelevance with every boomer that dies off in the coming decades.

>>25327938
Please go to /his/, that's the religion and humanities board. This is for literature, not religion or philosophy.

>>25328174
Maybe try reading those "ancient fucks" sometime. You might see why people keep citing them today if you do.

>>25327938
I don't eat crawfish my dude my g. Uncle owns G Wagon but wet dogs smell like carpet fresh. Its good it's good.

>>25328174
>NEW THING?

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>>25327996
>>25328019
Quid est veritas?

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>>25327938
Comfort of familiar convictions.
Why do women stay in unhappy marriages?
Why do people not quit their shitty jobs?
Why do people vote for parties that are nothing like they were 30 years ago?
Why do people watch 10+ season shows that lost its spark 5 seasons ago?

>>25327938
the reason for believing the pope is infalliable is mendacity, but the reason for believing the good parts of summa theologiae is because theyre logical

>>25328056
this is a particularly lazy form of moral intellectualism

>>25328643
>the reason for believing the good parts of summa theologiae is because theyre logical
Being content with 'mostly right' is the death of true knowledge.

>>25327938
The vast majority of people don't choose their religion. They are born in it and are raised with those religious teachings as the first principles on which they view everything else in the world.
Smart people, dumb people, it doesn't really matter, only a single digit percentage leave the religion they were raised in.

That fact alone should explain to you why better than any speculation or guessing.

>>25328133
It's just to kill every descendant of Adam. How can we start? Jesus solves this by dying for our sins and adjoining us to His mystical body via the Eucharist. Thus Jesus baring that priceless cost that we incurred on His body, and us being counted as Him. Jesus goes *whoosh* over the heads of fornicaters, fag-haters, woman-haters, rape-lovers, and authority-hogging narcissists who use being a teacher if religion as being some kind of exulting endeavour; when really it is a cross.

>>25328042
>prove to me that someone can do something while perceiving it to be wrong (i.e. not to be done)
Catholic philosophy and the whole classical tradition believes in weakness of will though? It also believes in self-denial and wickedness, the corruption of the will and intellect. These sins occupy the deepest parts of Dante's Hell precisely because they are most serious.

Not sure how the other part was even relevant.

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>>25328034
Indeed, but according to liberalism there can only be slavery and endless violence or liberalism as absolute totalitarian hegemon forcing consumerism and degeneracy on all people. It is truly a work of Satan.

The West will die. It's birth rates already show that it is in the grips of an anti-life ideology. The future will be the smaller scale polis where the Catholic and Orthodox confessional state can return, if Christ does not return first to cleanse the Earth.

But there is much to respect and learn from in Islam here.

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>>25328750
From St Ignatius of Antioch's letter to the Romans
>You have never begrudged the martyrs their triumph but rather trained them for it. And so I am asking you to be consistent with the lessons you teach them. Just beg for me the courage and endurance not only to speak but also to will what is right, so that I may not only be called a Christian, but prove to be one. For if I prove myself to be a Christian by martyrdom, then people will call me one, and my loyalty to Christ will be apparent when the world sees me no more. Nothing you can see is truly good. For our Lord Jesus Christ, now that he has returned to his Father, has revealed himself more clearly. Our task is not one of producing persuasive propaganda; Christianity shows its greatness when it is hated by the world.

I know there's hardly a point to polling academic opinion in the humanities, but do modern scholars affirm that the scholastic method is as stuffy and arbitrary as it appears to my modern sensibilities? Medieval scholastics don't seem to me to genuinely pursue interesting questions, rather they contrive distinctions in order to fit all their favored conclusions together by convenient definition. It creates a complex web of a system that is only plausible by its meticulous ironing out of contradictions, but that lacks warrant for a great deal of its assertions. And then there's that bewildering occupation with meaningless questions, like whether many angels can be in the same place. I would almost distrust a scholar who got into this stuff deep enough to defend it, because then you have to wonder if they're justifying their sunk cost.

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I know y'all big brain boys have lots of intricate apologetics on the topic, but what it really boils down to is Tradcath Nazi Deus Vult This Is What They Took From You being a simple counterculture response to the dominant Transfaggot Negrokike Deconstruct White Man movement.

>>25328652
yeah no were not doing the neoplatonism thing where we say God isnt good because God is beyond human imagination. mostly right is mostly right and aquinas said many true things

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>>25328766
>From St Ignatius of Antioch's letter to the Romans
>>You have never begrudged the martyrs their triumph but rather trained them for it. And so I am asking you to be consistent with the lessons you teach them. Just beg for me the courage and endurance not only to speak but also to will what is right, so that I may not only be called a Christian, but prove to be one. For if I prove myself to be a Christian by martyrdom, then people will call me one, and my loyalty to Christ will be apparent when the world sees me no more. Nothing you can see is truly good. For our Lord Jesus Christ, now that he has returned to his Father, has revealed himself more clearly. Our task is not one of producing persuasive propaganda; Christianity shows its greatness when it is hated by the world.

>>25328019
Cope all your life for being a bottom of the rung wagie by pretending that your boss that regularly fucks 10/10 models and lives a life of luxury will burn in magic lava when he dies.

>>25328034
Your third world shithole consume just as much porn and perform the same behaviours as westerners, you just do it behind closed doors while presenting an outwardly image of a pious man. Atleast western degenerates tell you that they're degenerate, you pretend to be a good person and a devout Muslim while sinning on the side when no one is looking.

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>>25328848
Being wicked is its own punishment.

>>25328646
And yet you can't argue against it. That and the tradition you purport to follow is intellectualist to its core (again, until push comes to shove).

>>25328052
>They just said divorce etc. same as for premarital sex, most are fine with it, same as homosexuality.
So there you go, they believe in that. Incidentally, they believe in that because they believe it to be good and true, which means they assert and seek the Good and the True, which is God.

>>25328131
you *are* aware the Truth is not equivalent to the set of true things or a subset thereof, right ? by your logic, you are also not seeking the truth by not currently engaging in entomological research, or by not actively seeking to discover what your neighbor did last night.

>>25328743
>Catholic philosophy and the whole classical tradition believes in weakness of will though?
Nope. Plato outright denied it. Aristotle tried to analyze the issue and literally concluded that to have real practical knowledge just is to act on it. Even Aquinas knew he couldn't outright deny that the will was *always* oriented to the Good, that *all* desired the Good, that *no one* erred willingly, etc. This obviously created a lot of problems for him.
I'll come out right now and, to save time, say that reframing the issue in term of "choosing a lesser/disordered good" solves nothing, as this is just a rephrasing. The question remains the exact same, if I take one course of action to be the best, there is absolutely no model of volition or free will that allows me to choose otherwise.

What you are defending is voluntarism, which was made up in the 14th century, and is not a model so much as it is a way of raising the purported untintelligibility of happenstance to the status of principle.

>>25328971
Of course. But I'm also not attempting to employ that information to score points against you in this conversation.

You're at 0/3, my dude. Sad.

>>25328991
First two anons came out and said that the reason people adhere to catholic ""philosophy"" is that they "would rather follow the truth" or "are drawn to reason, truth, beauty and goodness".

I'm explaining this is just describes every single being in existence, and no one ITT has given any argument to the contrary. I'm also explaining that this statement, in turn, stems from a rather uncontroversial tenet of the tradition catholic ""philosophy"" purports to base itself on.

I don't see what me not caring about the specifics of your delusion has to do with it.

>>25328789
That's not the reason neoplatonists would say God isn't "good" stricto sensu (univocally), though. Aquinas would also agree that God is beyond "human imagination", incidentally.

>>25328052
Morality isn't fixed retard-kun. Societies change and what was unacceptable yesterday is the norm today and vice versa. You can seethe all you want about how an apocalyptic cult from 2000 years ago can't kill gay people anymore, but you can't stop inevitable societal changes. Even christian societies in the past underwent moral transformation and changed their beliefs, showing that morality isn't static, but contingent on material conditions which in turn moulded societal beliefs.

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>>25328883
>Being wicked is its own punishment.

>>25329121
>I don't see what me not caring about the specifics of your delusion has to do with it.
It matters because, as I said, "you have no idea who I am or what I believe. You don't know what my traditions are or are not. Neither did you ask me for the truth."
You cannot justly claim I'm delusional without a legitimate examination of my positions. You're assuming what I believe based on no information and attacking me personally for it. You're not even attempting to engage with the truth or with me in good faith. Ergo, you're not following nor seeking the truth, whatever that might be.

If, as you have demonstrated, a living individual is not following the truth, then we can rightly say "not all people follow the truth". QED, you're position: "everyone seeks the truth" is invalid and unsound.

0/4

>>25328770
The entire aim of scholasticism is to strip classical thought of its awe inspiring, panentheistic, frankly puzzling nature, and turn it into a defense of legalism and institutionalism (for political reasons, of course). As such it only remembers its premises when it serves that project.

Case in point, Aristotle's definition of God as cause of *all* movement, that moves by *being loved* is central to Aquinas' first way (a much older argument, of course), but is conveniently set aside when it comes to the discussing the possibility of "mortal sin". There are dozens of other examples, but they all boil down to the same thing: plebs need a dualism.

Neo-scholastics in particular are only interested in philosophy when they can go for a cheap gotcha against 14 year old atheists. Ironically enough, what is often dubbed "modernism" (Blondel, Lavelle, Bergson, what have you) in philosophy or theology is infinitely closer in spirit to classical thought than scholasticism ever was.

>>25329233
As I said, the truth is not the set of true things or a subset thereof.

The fact that that I don't care or have failed to inquire about some specific set of truths is no different from the fact that you don't care about entomology or what your neighbor did last night, and it certainly does not mean that "not all people follow the truth" lmao.

All it means is I don't consider it relevant to what is at hand.

People reason. People arrive at conclusions and hold beliefs. They hold beliefs they believe to be true, not beliefs they believe to be false. This is the meaning of "to follow the truth". And I'm still waiting on a counterexample.

>>25329260
0/5

>>25329315
>still no response

>>25329321
There is no reason to further engage with you because you are not engaging in good faith. This will be my last reply.

You score: 0/6

Guilt, mostly, and a desperate need to belong to something bigger than themselves. Catholics more than other denominations of Christians rely on early psychological abuse to make their victims, sorry, "believers" dependent on the church for their sense of well-being. It's why the Catholic Church has dramatically revised its practices so much in the last 100 years, as better psychological help becomes available and society in general offers ways to belong that don't involve making you feel guilty all the time.

But even so, some people just don't escape the church even when they grow up. I have a friend who, in his 30s, realizes he no longer wants to be Catholic, but cannot imagine his life outside his Church because it would destroy his relationship with his family and people he's known all his life. It makes him feel like he's doing something wrong by no longer feeling like he belongs.

>>25329161
>morality isn't static because more people define morality in a way that deviates from established morality
Textbook commie cuck sophistry. What makes you think the majority of people don't choose immorality instead?

>>25329329
I am engaging in good faith, you're just failing to understand.

>>25329330
To be honest, the 21st century online catholic actually wants to be made to feel guilty.

>>25329330
>Christians rely on early psychological abuse
Every time with this shit.
Taking a kid to a public school is more abusive to a child's well-being than any heinous punishment or disciplinary measures your typical Catholic family can cook up.
>as better psychological help becomes available and society in general offers ways to belong that don't involve making you feel guilty all the time.
Kys kike.

>>25329354
>>25329354
>Taking a kid to a public school is more abusive to a child's well-being than any heinous punishment or disciplinary measures your typical Catholic family can cook up.
Including ass rape?

>>25329359
Kids are more likely to be assraped in some crackhead charter school that's 70% black, yes.

>>25329341
Because behaviour is lead by our material reality. If there's a famine then going to the neighbouring village to pillage their food supplies becomes morally good. In peace time warfare is bad for trade and trade gives you higher profit margins, so it becomes immoral to pillage.

>>25329369
High scarcity scenarios doesn't make morality "relative", dumbass. The most immoral actions have always stemmed from the most arbitrary and inane desires of decadents who care nothing for the sanctity of life.

>>25329359
I got molested (not very violently) by my tradcath parent and yes lol. The risk of molestation is higher in public school anyway.

t. Left and rejoined the faith, might become Anglican or something though

>>25329369
This is such an asinine way to think. Establish why we should adopt cuckold morality (you let whatever happens determine what you believe) before appealing to it. Read Hume.

>>25327938
Do you have a better one?

>>25329364
>>25329384
Cope and lies. Catholicism causes more ass rape than the U.S. prison system

>>25329394
No it doesn't, and I actually did get molested and it doesn't invalidate the value of the Church. You're just a fat little faggot desperately trying to pull others down into the slop pit you live in.

>>25329394
Objectively untrue.

How can you sincerely say you're against adultery and murder if you also wear mixed fibers? Checkmate, Catholitards.

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>>25329359
ass rape happens because of school

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>>25329394
papists chose to have sodomite clergy while knowing that the Bible demands that pastors be married with well behaved children

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>>25329260
>People reason. People arrive at conclusions and hold beliefs. They hold beliefs they believe to be true, not beliefs they believe to be false. This is the meaning of "to follow the truth"
this is a particularly lazy form of moral intellectualism. youre like the divorce judge who sees that the law says if the husband sexually abuses the wife she gets a restraining order and full custody of the kids and full use of the house and a third of his pre tax income in mockingly named "child support" slave payments, sees the wife accusing the husband of having raped her last month, gives her that restraining order, and then declares himself a good person for upholding the laws and customs of his people

>>25329466
This has nothing whatsoever to do with what I'm saying, or with intellectualism in general.

But yes, I am an intellectualist (though most people have no clue what this actually means). I'd be curious to know what your arguments against it are. First off, what do you think intellectualism is ?

>>25328019
Based

The alcoholic janitor is having another meltie.

>>25329380
>A mother smothering her two week old infant because they're in a middle of a famine and she has five more kids to feed has nothing to do with material conditions, she was just being decadent. The only morally correct thing to do is to have her entire family die.