D&D 5e

ACKS is peak OSR. No game will nail down Gygaxian D&D the way it does.

>>97900582
When I wanna play D&D I just play D&D. OSR is for dweebs.

>>97900869
Well there are a lot of versions of D&D. At lest 9

>>97900865
It wasn't for me, but what do you enjoy about it?

>>97900865
This, ACKS is the only game to come out in the OSR sphere that actually takes things like Gold for XP and Domain Play seriously. While still having a functional dungeon crawler for early levels.

Next best is BECMI / RC D&D.

>>97900865
>ACKS is peak OSR.
I appreciate a lot of the concepts of ACKS, and I am also a fan of domain play - but ACKS is also full of weird quirks, and build-like options that are not very OSR.

>>97900582
I just like the black and white drawings I saw on boomer's B/X. If Dungeons and Dragons 6th edition will use the black and white drawings, I will buy it then.

>>97901459
That is fair. Some of the old art is simply fantastic. I got into D&D with 2e and the art sold it for me.

>>97900582
I found B/X a bit simple (and quirky in some areas) and AD&D bit overdone (and lacking in some other areas), so I did what everyone did and made their own game. That's my favourite part of the OSR: people just making their own stuff to do exactly what they want, and most of it being cross-compatible / ripe for stealing from.

I prefer the classic, rather limited OSR--a tight focus on dungeon-crawling, gold for XP--rather than the modern "it's all OSR if you really think about it" style. I find it pretty funny that D&D started out as this fairly specific thing and eventually became generic fantasy toolkit game, and then the OSR community appeared to get back to that fairly specific thing, and then new arrivals showed up as it got popular and turned it into generic fantasy toolkit game, and now you've got OSR for OSR (i.e. CAG). But I don't begrudge people doing their own thing, even if I have no idea why anyone would ever want to play Knave or whatever.

>>97901518
>I found B/X a bit simple (and quirky in some areas) and AD&D bit overdone (and lacking in some other areas), so I did what everyone did and made their own game.
Yeah. To be honest OSE does something like that, optionally, but still not as much as I want.
I would say my ideal game is 50% BX, 30% AD&D, 10% stuff stolen from BECMI and 2e, 10% stuff stolen from OSR games

>>97900865
>No game will nail down Gygaxian D&D the way it does.
By having convoluted systems that don't produce the results they promises and that even the creators wouldn't use themselves? Then it really nails Gygaxian D&D.
The stuff I read doesn't share Gary's tone of writing though.

>>97900844
lol literally came to say this, so FPBP

>>97900582
OSR is a useless relic. Just play 1e. I prefer OD&D+Chainmail.

>>97900582
I think of all the OSR systems Advanced Labyrinth Lord really hit the nail on the head of mixing BX and AD&D. But also I’ll absolutely steal stuff from newer OSR games, like Argosa’s pseudo crit system

>>97903281
3lbb is all you need

>>97901056
>Well there are a lot of versions of D&D. At lest 9
And none of them are "OSR." That's just a label you guys made up to promote hacky rip-offs of D&D and pretend you're playing it in a way that no one ever did. D&D is D&D, and what you're playing are chincy, lazy rip-offs. If you wanna play different games than D&D, there are plenty of good ones out there. I'll never understand why you guys convince yourselves you're playing something else, just because you bought the Walmart brand knock-off of it.

>>97901518
That's fair to mix and match. It's a thing gamers have long done. Personally I like acending AC so tend to use that myself.

>>97903377

Also fair. I find Tales from Argosa interesting but dislike the spell mechanic.

>>97905717
Ya, I think Argosa is a great book to steal ideas from, but I don’t know if I’d ever play it. Even if I wanted to play it idk if any of my group would want to stick with it after a session or 2

>>97906943
it is to 5e what castles and crusades is to 3e with a dark fantasy feel. if i ever got 5e kiddies that i wanted to start converting away from the system it's probably what i would use

>>97903390
Nah you need chainmail to run it proper.

File: i-have-been-saying-for-some-time-that-chainmail-is-not-d-d-v0-n2p2er09f6je1.png (37.5 KB)

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>>97907493
Nah, you don't need more

>>97901411
You're talking to a troll.
ACKS is a terrible game and the only people who'd recommend it are psychopaths.

>>97907671
I don't care what some retard on twitter says. I use it in my campaign and its great.

>>97907686
That’s not what you said in your previous post

>>97907698
You are retarded.

>>97907706
>You NEED It
>I proved that it's not true
>Anyway, I like how it works and you retarded
Lol ok

>>97907739
I mean yeah you can play chess without a chessboard but it will suck ass. Just like odnd without chainmail. Retard.

>>97907741
More like: you can play chess with backgammon rules but it will suck ass. Exactly like dnd with chainmail rules.

>>97906943
Yeah, it was a good read, I am unsure I will ever run it. These days I have to many ideas , too many games and never enough time to run them all.

>>97907741
>>97907758
LBB only is playing chess without knowing how half the tiles move and relying on someone else telling you how knights and bishops work.
And then you learn that at John's table, knights move in a straight line and strike a diagonal piece, like in a medieval joust.

>>97908324
Alright, so you use some Chainmail rules in the later stages of D&D, once you've built your castle and decided to fight a pitched battle against an enemy army. Is it worth it? Personally, I don't think so. 90% of a D&D adventure doesn't need these rules, and the remaining 10% can be improvised with a few house rules (years ago, in a similar situation, my group and I used the Warhammer Fantasy rules with some tweaks, even though we weren't playing 3LBB) or just with simple common sense.

>>97900582
classless OSR games is my jam
I just find classes stupid and overly restrictive in regards of player's creativity at the table
I enjoy B/X clones occasionally as well

>>97909129
I like classless systems as a whole. My first RPG was classless, so they always feel so restricting. Not tinkers with many OSR classless games as they tend to be too light.

>>97909187
imo there is no such thing as too light
a coin flip is the only resolution mechanic a really good GM needs
everything else is crutches
I'm only half joking

>>97909321
>half
I have know folks who would totally run with a coin flip lol. My brain likes structure, if a system is too light it feels incomplete.

Take PbtA games for instance. I bounce off those so hard it breaks the sound barrier. They to me are just an incompetent mess. Yet others have no issue with em.

D&D wise, anything under AD&D 1e/2e level of complexity tends to feel incomplete to me. Other folks love em, My brain finds em to be incomplete

>>97909374
>incomplete
Well.. yes, all TTRPGs are, fundamentally
That's why you need a role of referee
If you want a complete ruleset you are in the wrong hobby and should just play gloomhaven or some other board game

>>97911867
Nah it's different. You can never get totally complete, that way lays madness. But I need a certain threshold of rules or I end up reworking the ruleset to bring in what I need. Which is more trouble than it's worth when I can just start off with a ruleset closet to what I need.

Some folks love rules light systems or super light. Hell some love micro systems you can fit on one page. Others love rulesets so complex the rulebook can stop a bullet. Really there used to be a video of a dude shooting the Heros or champions book and it stopping a 9mm.

I just know the level I need and stuff like B/X simply isn't it. I also have a seething hate for race as class, so there is that

>>97909129
>classless OSR games is my jam
Like what systems? Sounds like something the /osrg/ fags would absolute abhor.

>>97900582
>I am using the broad term definition
Kill yourself, retard. Shadowdark and 2e are not OSR

>>97903458
How is OSE not BX?
How is ALL a "hacky rip off"?

>>97907683
You're an idiot lmao keep seething. ACKS is fine for autistic lawyer types

>>97911867
Knave isn't the same as 1eADnD you dumb fuck

>>97900582
I like crunch too. OSE and B/X just feels like kiddie games to me. I need weird tables and schizo math.

>>97917151
I don't think of them as kiddie games, just to light for me. I also hate race as class. That alone kills them for me. OSE has an advanced book that helps though.

>>97917151
>weird tables and schizo math.
Like what

>>97900582
2e AD&D. I've been thinking about looking into basic, not sure which revision though.

>>97917159
DCC presumably

>>97913716
I don't trust anyone who insists they love ultra-lite systems where they pretend they're playing a hardcore old school game, but actually they're just handwaving and making shit up and fudging dice because they think not anything having rules means its not important enough to need rules. Usually people like this don't actually like the hobby, and just want to pretend that they do, because it's a quirky feather to put in their proverbial cap.

>>97917453
2e was my fav as well of the older systems.I wish it got more OSR attention , but understand why it doesn't. Old School Essentials (OSE) is a good one to look at for basic games. It's a nicely laid out modern book. From what I know it's basically BX up orginzed better. It has an advanced book which separates race and class too

>>97917570
I have ran into that before, not my cuppa. Those ultra lights do tend to attract that type.

>>97917604
It's usually some pretentious youtuber with their table full of imrpov comedians who will eagerly tell you how amazing it was that "the rules got out of the way" when they were playing a game for their latest live stream or podcast.

>>97900844
5e sucks cock

>>97917570
>I don't trust anyone who insists they love ultra-lite systems where they pretend they're playing a hardcore old school game, but actually they're just handwaving and making shit up and fudging dice
Nobody tell him.

>>97917743
While those Podcasts have helped spread interest in gaming, they also give new players a false ideas of what the experience will be. Some of the actual plays with actual gamers using the rules are fun, but that's not what drawls many people

>>97917124
>ACKS is fine if you hate fun
It's essentially an insult to recommend it to someone.

I've basically enjoyed going as far back as I can stand, which is running small campaigns based on Basic, which usually means B/X without getting into the X just because I like the organization more. I tried 0E but it filtered me, alas!

>>97917108
>not OSR
Why?

>>97917765
I have a feeling that you don't play any games at all

>>97921244
Osr = tsr first decade according to /osrg/.
Shadowdark, Mork zog etc. = Nu-sr

>>97921327
since when is osrg a valid source for anything?
you also even managed to even get that wrong.
I guess you are that stupid or misinformed.
According to osrg:
oldschool/original/grognard dnd- 1st decade tsr
osr- retroclones with mechanical fidelity like labyrinth lord, acks, ose, osric etc
nusr- osr inspired but no mechanical fidelity
shadowdark, knave, mork borg etc

>>97921378
>Welcome to the Old School Renaissance General, the thread dedicated to first-decade, Gygaxian D&D, its faithful modern clones, and content created for use with them.
You're wrong about OSR vs grognard. OSRG is unreliable anyway, I only linked it as it's the main source here.
Also, cool it

>>97921424
anon i was there when the general was first created. i dont care what the modern fake larpers of osrg pretend osrg is about. every relevant member of the community left a long time ago.
it's now all people pretending to be grogs with all their might trying to outpurity spiral one another

>>97921327
>Osr = tsr first decade according to /osrg/.
Does anyone else outside of /tg/ agree with that personal definition?

>>97921477
It's not even the actual definition /osrg/ uses, despite the faggot OP posts.

>>97921487
I'm aware. Hence why i refuse to post in that thread until the faggotry ends at some point in the near distant future.

>>97921327
First of all literally who?
Secondly
Have you tried correcting them?
Playing first decade dnd is literally just playing old school dnd, no need tie it to an indie game scene that started in the 2000s
If you check Wikipedia it says Shadowdark is osr

>>97922229
>First of all literally who?
Some hyper autistic faggots that have been doing this since october of last year, starting at link related
>https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/96775865/#q96778252
>Have you tried correcting them?
Yes, many times. they just accuse you of being a made up strawman they call "fishfag", a boogieman that's secretly trying to drag the thread into the ground, and cares hugely about 2e (Despite according to them never playing D&D before.)

>so mad about being wrong and leaving in a huff they make several separate threads to stomp their feet about it
lol fish just talk about your actual game, in your threads you made to talk about your actual game in. You dense motherfucker.

>>97921327
Regardless of who or what gets to decide, Shadowdark et. al aren't OSR because they aren't designed like old school games. Ultra-simplified mechanics, high lethality, and random tables for trifling shit, are not the only things that make a game "old school". Arguably, some of those things weren't exactly hallmarks of the earlier editions of TSR D&D either.

OP here, Shadowdark grew out of the OSR movement, so I included it as there is player overlap. Notice in the OP I put it in the same paragraph as Tales of argosa and the black hack.

It's not that deep guys

>>97922425
You failed to make a point anon
You have to follow up the list of things the game shares with old school games with what the game actually lacks
Not that I'm particularly interested in your opinion
just pointing it out

>>97917151
>>97917153
What exactly do you need that b/x and clones don't have?

>>97922543
Dungeons and Dragons grew out of wargames and Spire grew our of ttrpgs, which are all dnd derived. Is Spire a wargame?

>>97923010
I am the second post there. For one as I said I hate race as class. But I need more structure and framework. I can't tell you exactly what off hand, just that I keep running into that "feels incomplete" wall.

>>97923015
We both know that is over generalization Spire is not D&D derived, nor is chainmail like all wargames.

D&D derived games show Thier linage. Games like shadowdark, tales of argosa and the black hat factually grew out of the OSR movement and sphere.

>>97923058
>we both know my version is the Good exaggeration and yours is the Bad one
No, we don't. Relying on an assumed shared expectation on an anonymous message board is retarded.
Your leap is just as absurd as mine as far as I'm concerned. Fuck it, VtM can be run as OSR.

>>97900844
Gay.

>>97901056
After 1997 they stopped making D&D and started making kids play fantasy time, now 8 year old girl friendly.

>>97923107
Dude over generlization is not a "shared experience".

>>97923123
They marketed D&D to kids far before 97 my guy. I have ran 8 to 10 year olds with more than one game system, that's not a system issue, that is just setting and GM.

>>97923032
>can't name the specific thing he is missing
Sounds like you are a pretentious faggot
Who wants to show off and bases his entire identity on playing (assuming, we don't know if you actually play games) the "grownup" and "hardcore" version of the playpretend recreational game with toy soldiers lmao
Which basically describes half of this thread ngl

>>97900865
ACKS and its discord is the worst thing to infect this board in a long time, and it's a shame we're stuck with them because they keep getting banned everywhere else.

>>97923234
No, I am just someone that needs more structure than some games give. If you need less, that's cool, but I need a set level of structure. I am not the guy who used the term kiddie, nothing more or less grown up about the level of crunch a game has.

It's kinda like sandbox vs linear games. Some folks can't do sandbox, they don't know what to do do struggle, others find linear games so very restricting. Neither is the "right" style, they are just different styles which don't fit some folks.

>>97923251
And the act like it's done internet wide conspiracy they got banned

>>97923251
Anytime people get this personally offended by a thing, it has to be something good.
>>97923384
? Would love to see evidence of this. Being banned from reddit and rpg-net are good qualities by the way

>the troll appears
That was quick.

>>97923129
Not your dude fucko. What's your generalization require people to have to agree with your
>we all know this thing
bullshit? Get your head out of your ass.

>>97923428
Mention 2e being OSR and you will really get him going

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I'm a GURPSchad, so I play Dungeon Fantasy. Gritty, lethal, hack'n'slash games with a focus on getting the loot.

>>97923379
>still can't tell what specifically does b/x lack that he needs
ok

>>97923421
You just gave it

>>97923443
No, you made an over generlization that all RPGs are the same and thus wargames because one RPG came from one type of wargame.

>>97923634
I have told you a number of times, you just do not like it. I don't like rules lite systems and race as class is an auto fuck no.

>>97923002
Fuck off with your debate club shtick, plebbitor.

>>97922543
Shadowdark grew out of 5e. Don't be retarded.

>>97923666
That doesn't address my question at all.

But regardless, as I said, if something causes this much butt hurt with Reddit and rpgnet, it is almost certainly something that I can endorse, those two places are the absolute bottom barrel drags of tabletop society, and anything they hate, must be upwards of them

>>97923672
nou

>>97923421
>Being banned from reddit and rpg-net are good qualities by the way
Lmao

>>97923807
It grew out of the OSR movement. It's based off taking 5e and making it more old school and lighter

>>97924038
It genuinely did not. The creator had zero involvement with the OSR community and only ever made 5e material before Shadowdark.

>>97923847
Got banned from em huh

>>97924040
Here is a quote

>>It originated from a desire to combine old-school dungeon crawling (like TSR-era D&D) with modern, streamlined mechanics

>>97924040
Opening page of the wiki as well

>>Shadowdark is a dark fantasy tabletop role-playing game created by Kelsey Dionne and published in 2023 after raising 1.4 million dollars on kickstarter. As part of the Old School Renaissance, it focuses primarily on dungeon crawling. It won four gold medals at the 2024 ENNIE Awards.

>>97923682
>still not an answer to the question
>instead trying to dodge it
there are plenty b/x retroclones that do separate race/class
what is it that you are missing?
be specific

>>97924061
I told you dude, it's to rules light and feels unfinished. That's it, it's just too light. I have no desire to reread it to find what framework is kidding just to tell you "it's this thing here in particular!"

It's too rules light. That is it.

>>97924040
what a genuinely retarded argument
do you have some sort of mental disability or something? genuine question
everyone has had zero OSR involvement until they started the involvement with OSR

>>97924113
quod erat demonstrandum
>>97923234

>>97924117
Ntayrt
You've never read a blog or forum in your life huh?

>>97923798
>being not a complete retard is .. le plebbit
lol
no you fuck off, retard
come back when you are capable of articulating a single point

>>97924126
Son, it's my prefance in games. I don't care for light systems. To me it feels incomplete. I can't demonstrate why something just don't work for me any more than I can tell you why I think chicken livers taste awful.

You are allowed to like chicken livers even if I don't.

>>97923898
Absolutely. If you are interested, make an account on rpgnet, go to the forum, and look at all of the threads on the infractions board.

They publicly list all warnings and bans, and it is genuinely some of the most unhinged powertrip examples I have seen.

>>97924042
That is your argument? No, I'm not banned from either website, but I also don't actively use them.
Same with twitter. Never been banned because I've never used it.

Now can you please address my question from earlier?

>>97924403
You ignore anything that got them banned, you even pointed out sites that banned them somehow don't count. You don't care.

>>97924508
I'm genuinely confused about what you're trying to say?

My point is that the community and ecosystem for those particular places, are so terrible, and so restrictive, that's something being explicitly banned from those places only strikes me as being a quality that intrigues if not entices me.

I care enough to Post online about it, but not enough to make a big deal about it elsewhere. The game itself has been fun to play, and fighting out that it has a bad reputation among people that I categorically disagree with in almost every way, only cements that enjoyment for me.

If you'd like I am more than happy to continue the discussion

>>97924051
>>97924057
>>97924117
>If she said it's OSR that makes it OSR!
If that really the best you've got? OSR is just an aesthetic to you retards, isn't it?

>>97924850
To get banned from there means you were on those sites to begin with and trying to actively engage with some of the most braindead communities on the internet. Getting banned from either doesn't mean you're a badass cool guy who spoke truth to power.

>>97925106
Nothing but what your circle jerk thinks is OSR is OSR to you. Facts and evidence be damned.

>>97925122
I've already explained that I've never been banned from any of those websites, I'm really confused if you are an ESL or just having a hard time understanding me?

And I never said anything about being badass or "truth to power" (whatever that means). What I said is that those websites are dog shit, and if something is banned from them, that just makes it more enticing and intriguing for me.

You seem to make up a lot of really bizarre things assuming that they are my arguments without me ever having said them.

>>97925221
So answer this simple question: is Shadowdark OSR?

>>97924117
>everyone has had zero OSR involvement until they started the involvement with OSR
Most people don't have anomalously successful osr Kickstarter campaigns for a brand new system without ever having been involved in osr before, correct.

What the fuck even is OSR? "Old-School Resurgence," doesn't answer shit.

>>97925284
>>97925284
I'm surprised that you say it doesn't explain shit when it clearly implies that it is a resurgence of old school gaming. I will say that I've never heard anybody use the term resurgence, usually it is revival or Renaissance.

To be more clear, the exact definition of that entirely depends on who you are asking, when you are asking, and why you are asking.

There's a bit of a civil war on this site about the subject, so I won't give my personal opinion, but I will tell you that it is currently a hotly contested subject.

>>97925106
Not any of those anons, so let me lay this down for you.

The OSR was a very loose concept, and a very loose group with no hierarchy, structure, or anything you could even call an organization. There isn't even an agreement on what "R" stands for, with it first meaning "Revival" and later "Renaissance" and some dipshits even throwing in their hats for "Revolution."

They never agreed on what made a game "Old School." Not even Gygax endorsing Troll Lord Games unified the crowd, because, as is generally the case with RPGs, everyone had their own ideas about what made a game good, and what elements were worth preserving.

All that unified them was a loose understanding that WotC had control over all the editions of D&D, and upon publishing 3rd, they dropped all support for previous editions. That included Dragon Magazine going from a pan-D&D publication to exclusively a 3rd edition one, along with their website treating previous editions as a dead topic.

The OSR, is, quite simply, just people who liked pre-WotC editions of D&D.
For some, yes, despite your scorn, it was the "aesthetic" of previous editions that they liked best. That's what "old school" meant to them.
For others, it was specific mechanics. For others, it was a certain "tone" or certain assumptions, like meat-grinder dungeons being more popular, or in the case of some people holding onto some sacred cows that 3rd edition slew.

This isn't to say the OSR was anti-3rd edition. Many OSR games have embraced 3rd edition (and even later edition) mechanics, and it's also not some Luddite-movement meant to resist any and all changes and advancements. While some within the OSR have tried to steer it towards being that, the wider OSR movement has generally just done whatever they felt like.

The whole bickering over what is or isn't OSR is ridiculous, and comes from little-dicked people trying to cow those who don't know any better into agreeing with some ass-headed notion about what "True OSR" is.

>>97925322
That's a lot of words to say you think "OSR" doesn't have to mean anything at all, which is just more SWORD DREAM bullshit.

>>97925330
That's a pretty transparent effort to blindly dismiss a pretty clear and simple definition. Shame on you.

>The OSR, is, quite simply, just people who liked pre-WotC editions of D&D.

There. That's an established meaning, supported by facts and history, and doesn't have to exclude commonly accepted OSR entries or points of discussion. And, in the grand scheme of RPGs, it's pretty damn narrow slice, despite the proliferation of heartbreakers and clones within that space.

If you have trouble accepting this, I recommend you dive into your email spam folder and try out some of those penis enlargement pills because they might be able to fix your main issue.

>>97925346
By that definition, Shadowdark isn't OSR, then. It's based more on 5e than not, due to its heavy reliance on advantage and disadvantage, it's dedication to hand-waving away things that the creator failed to write rules or procedures for, and it's aversion to bookkeeping and minutia tracking. All things which typify modern era WotC D&D.

>>97925322
2e is not OSR

>>97925245
Yes.

>>97925346
See above: 2e is not OSR

>>97925363
>By that definition, Shadowdark isn't OSR, then

You could have just stayed simply wrong, but now you're being wrong and stupid. Do yourself a favor and actually read that entire post you tried to dismiss out of pure little-dicked fear.

>The OSR, is, quite simply, just people who liked pre-WotC editions of D&D.
>This isn't to say the OSR was anti-3rd edition. Many OSR games have embraced 3rd edition (and even later edition) mechanics, and it's also not some Luddite-movement meant to resist any and all changes and advancements. While some within the OSR have tried to steer it towards being that, the wider OSR movement has generally just done whatever they felt like.

See. That's enough for someone to say "Hey. y'know 5e? Well, I [like pre-WotC editions of D&D], so I want to include things like race-as-class, torch-tracking, higher lethality, and lots of black-and-white art, all in an effort to try and capture some of that Old School spirit" and for people to say "Well, I guess that's the parts of Old School D&D that you like."

>>97925346
This is just a troll from osrg. Do not engage with him

>>97925398
By all means, run the fuck away, you thread-killing cancer.

>>97925397
Trying to capture old school spirit and succeeding are different things. You're essentially arguing that the faintest whiff of something that could be construed as old school is therefore old school, despite your own insistence that OSR is about pre-WotC D&D.

Make up your mind, retard.

>>97925383
LOL no

>>97925397
My cooking is inspired by Italy. Doesn't make it Italian food

>>97925410
>Trying to capture old school spirit and succeeding are different things.
Differences in opinion. There's a reason there's so many different OSR games, and it's because everyone's got different ideas of what it means to "succeed in capturing the old school spirit."

>You're essentially arguing that the faintest whiff of something that could be construed as old school is therefore old school,
I'm arguing that what someone considers vital to the "Old school spirit" is going to be different from what someone else will consider, and there's enough room for people to disagree within that space without being retarded or autistic about it.

I personally have a fairly strict idea of what a game needs in order for it to get my seal of approval in regards to it capturing the "old school" experience. But that's me personally, and not something I'd impose on anyone else just to show off how big my fucking cock is.

If someone wants to give their 5e game of few spritzes of the Old School scent and call it OSR, they might genuinely have a better grasp of what old school gaming was about and not this faggoty system warfare you keep obsessing about.

>>97925430
...I'm going to ask if you're going to double-down on this.

If you're going to get yourself flogged for saying something incredibly stupid, you deserve the chance to look over what you said and reconsider.

>>97925406
That's rich coming from you.

>>97925284
It's just marketing goop at this point. Totally captured and shat out by idiots like >>97925322

>>97925511
I'm not the guy always chasing after all the people who want to avoid you.

>>97925538
nou

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Its OSE Advanced Fantasy for me

I enjoy a lot of the NuSR games like Mythic Bastionland, Pirateborg andd whatnot but none of them really compare.

>>97925703
Can't pull that card when people are making threads specifically to avoid you.
Look above even at this OP.
>This thread isn't to argue over what is and isn't OSR. I am using the broad term definition of the term.Let's leave that shit elsewhere.
You want to argue about your piss-and-shit narrow definition like a little bitch? Do so elsewhere.

>>97902356
I think "Gygaxian D&D" is like one of those flags you hang out of your back pocket to signal what kind of faggot you are. Saying you play "Gygaxian D&D" is how you tell everyone you enjoy taking it up the ass and calling the man fucking you "daddy," and it's named that way because that's Gygax's kids' preference.

>>97900865
Didn't they shit on Gygax?

>>97925743
Who do you think I am?
Try and locate my first post in the thread.

>>97925731
I am in an OSR game currently using the advanced stuff. It's well laid out

>>97925382
>>97925387
How? What disqualifies it?

>>97926454
This guy is a troll from osrg. He wants to shit the thread up with pointless arguments

>>97926493
>This guy is a troll from osrg.
I'm aware, i'm trying to get him to voice what he believes so i can disprove it.

>>97925995
Certain people like invoking Gygax like a divine entity because they think it makes them sound cooler and more cultured. The kind of people who say they like strong black coffee because it makes them sound tasteful and mature, but actually they load that shit up with sugar and cream because they can't stand the taste of black coffee, which is why they never actually order it.

These same people, who couldn't actually identify different blends or flavors of their proverbial coffee, could likewise not articulate what aspect of Gygax's alleged intended way to play D&D they mean to invoke. Like, pre or post burnout Gygax? The guy who preached his personal moral philosophy on random forums? Or the Gygax who, after losing everyone and proving he couldn't design a successful game on his own, recanted all of his fire and brimstone proclamations and told people to just play in a way that was fun for them? They'll never say, because they don't know shit.

>>97926620
>Certain people like invoking Gygax like a divine entity
Much like the most devout religious extremists, they must have never read their divine text. I'm reading the AD&D DMG right now and every page leaves me more baffled at how badly thought out it is.

>>97926790
Wait till you have a question you have to quickly clarify at the table lmao

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>>97925284
It's a colloquial term that describes what started in 2000s as an indie ttrpg gaming scene interested in old-school D&D style of play after OGL and WotC's unwillingness to print out old material
>The Old School Renaissance, Old School Revival,[1] or OSR is a play style movement in tabletop role-playing games which draws inspiration from the earliest days of tabletop RPGs in the 1970s, especially Dungeons & Dragons.[2] It consists of a loose network or community of gamers and game designers[3] who share an interest in a certain style of play and set of game design principles.
Important to note that it's a movement, a scene, not a genre as often mistakenly understood

also please refer to picrel
also a previous reply is very good and thorough >>97925322

>>97925330
what the post is
>a lot of words which quite clearly convey an idea
what anon read
>That's a lot of words to say you think "OSR" doesn't have to mean anything at al
the problem is you

PS
just wondering have you been ever checked for autism?

>>97925363
you are a retard and you are moved by emotions instead of reason
playing SD is nothing like playing 5e because it's about different gameloops
advantage/disadvantage doesn't make a game being based on 5e

>>97925250
I think I understand what your problem is
just so you know Kelsy grew up in Wisconsin and has been playing old-school D&D with people who were at Gary's original table, and also has personally met Gygax.
>They were around [while I was growing up], and so they were running D&D games for us at local game stores, and Gary Gygax would randomly appear at our game store every so often just to hang out,” Dionne said. “It was very special, and I only realized that in hindsight […] who these people were and how important they were and how much they shaped what I love about the game.
that's her old-school exposure, actually playing with the dudes

Why must the same trolls always show up to be off topic?

>>97927545
They got banned off of the other websites.

>>97927629
Yeah, the ACK guy is very clear he sees that as a badge of honor. The other ones show up to shit any non osrg OSR related thread

>>97927638
Yup. it's been going on for months now. They scream that everybody is actually just one single strawman who is behind everything, as well as screaming "HIJACK" when someone makes a thread that doesn't follow their own hijacked OP. it's projection.

>>97927638
>>97927643
>The ACKS Guy
>That One Troll from /osrg/
lmao and you get mad when everyone calls you fish.

>>97927662
>oh no, i m getting called out
>better start talking about fish

>>97927662
Son, that is your deflection.

>>97927643
Yep, Anyone and everyone, even when the posting styles clash and it's clearly multiple people talking are always "one guy" to the trolls

>>97927667
>>97927682
>its just these 'two' anons again.
Hi fish.

>>97926493
It's disqualified by virtue of Shadowdark being disqualified for the same reasons.
If you can't extrapolate from this, then I'm afraid you are the troll.

>>97926790
At the risk of setting off a shtistorm 1e or 2e?

>>97928258
>if you don't agree with my opinion I'm not even found to bother to back up with any meaningfull arguments you are a troll
It's hilarious how little self aware you are

>>97928282
>found
going to
Sorry anons I'm outside and on the phone

>>97928281
The one written by Gary Gygax.

>>97928258
I am the OP, take your off topic trolling elsewhere

>>97928281
NTA, but it's 1e based off the context of the post.

OSR is just a bunch of 50 year olds that don't want to play with people reeled in by Critical Role and Morrowind players

>>97928282
I think you will find that "Shadowdark is not OSR" it's not just my opinion, same with 2e.
Doing your weird angry screeching isn't going to change this.
>>97928311
Actually, I'm OP and I'm requesting you to hang yourself.

>>97926790
So you're an idiot that's not able to parse what he's reading, and thus your conclusion is that nobody else has ever been able to do it either?
Lmao bewildered arrangement is not a reaction I expected from somebody trying to read about a kid's game

>>97928343
I can tell you about my own experience. My first session of original 1974 D&D—following my time with the 2nd and 3rd editions—took place two years ago. It was originally intended as a one-shot, but it was so enjoyable that it has continued to this day. I am not 50 years old, of course.

>>97928382
>t. didn't read the DMG

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>>97926790
The thing is that Gygax was not writing with the benefit of the hindsight we have now.

He was writing AD&D with the idea that he could write a rule set that would make D&D tournaments fair and uniform. He still hadn't really grasped what D&D actually was, and was still thinking of it from the perspective of it being far closer to a wargame/board game than what it was actually evolving into.

>>97928374
>I think you will find that "Shadowdark is not OSR" it's not just my opinion, same with 2e.
ok then there are two of you
still no one asked for your opinion because if someone can't back up their opinion by sound arguments it's an opinion not worth listening to

>>97928449
>the idea that he could write a rule set that would make D&D tournaments fair and uniform
that makes the books an abject failure
because it's one of those rulebooks that you can give to a 100 of people, ask them a question on how a certain thing should be ruled and get a 100 different answers
of course that's just a bunch of nonsense and the real reason AD&D was made is to not pay royalties to other D&D co-authors

>>97900582
>This thread isn't to argue over what is and isn't OSR. I am using the broad term definition of the term.Let's leave that shit elsewhere.
This is nonsense. You can't say "what's your flavor of OSR? Oh also I'm including a shit ton of things that aren't OSR, don't argue about it". If you want to have anything like a sensible discussion about OSR you have to use the actual meaning of the term.

>>97928615
The term is very open the one used by the osrg here isn't the standard term. According to wiki, kick starter and the author themselves shadowdark is OSR. Everything I listed falls under the larger OSR umbrella.

Which is why arguing what isn't "real OSR" is off topic as that will only bring trolls. If you wish to make a topic debating what is and is not "real" OSR, be my guest, make that topic. This isn't it.

>>97928615
see >>97926956

>>97928654
>the one used by the osrg here isn't the standard term
Yes it is (and you know it). Melan, Trent and others creating OSR content from the earliest days use this exact same definition, you're just mad about it. Wikipedia means nothing in comparison, and flat assertions for marketing purposes mean less than nothing.

>>97928662
Nah, these are just lies to try to subvert the sense of OSR on this board.

>>97928715
You are off topic and trolling

>>97928765
Sorry, your weird angry screeching is what's off topic. Simply stop trying to derail OSR discussions on this board.

I like Dungeon Crawl Classics.

For me, OSR at its broadest is anything where characters are randomly generated and death is a real threat, because not being able to build their plot-armored queer tiefling warlock is the crucifix that keeps away the theater kid vampire.

>>97928849
>>keeps away the theater kid

We have known some very different theater kids. They often love that random shit.

>>97928483
I'm sorry that you're not satisfied, but we both know that no matter what answer I gave, you would never be satisfied nor change your mind.
Shadowdark and 2e are both not osr, and are both bad games.

>>97928849
>OSR at its broadest is anything where characters are randomly generated and death is a real threat
Holy shit what a dumpster fire of a post

Into the Odd derivatives. Simple and neat.

>>97928449
>The thing is that Gygax was not writing with the benefit of the hindsight we have now.
He also didn't write with the benefit of foresight. It's stream of consciousness writing where he makes forward references to a section by name, but uses a different section name when he actually writes it 90 pages later and writes so unclearly it could be interpreted at least two ways.

He also made AD&D 1e the only edition where players aren't even supposed to know what to write on their character sheet. Not only doesn't the PHB give you info on how to roll your stats, but it also hides the attack progression and saving throw tables in the DMG. And tells the DM that players possessing that knowledge deserve less than honorable death. Even if that part was a joke.

>>97929086
For a college dropout who's legacy is mostly just being credited for ideas he stole, it's unreasonable to expect him to have enough imagination to be able to accurately foresee what a game based on imagination would grow into.

>>97929107
I was also talking about the foresight what he'd write a couple days later.

>>97929150
That was probably the cocaine.

>>97929040
They are too simple for my taste personally but look interesting

>>97929086
>>also made AD&D 1e the only edition where players aren't even supposed to know what to write on their character sheet. Not only doesn't the PHB give you info on how to roll your stats, but it also hides the attack progression and saving throw tables in the DMG. And tells the DM that players possessing that knowledge deserve less than honorable death. Even if that part was a joke.

Ya know if I had found 1e before 2e I don't think I would have ever got into D&d. It's just such a disorganized mess.

>>97928503
Yes.
>>97929107
Just to add on,
How many people on the planet in those days even had a concept resembling what we today consider to be "game design"? Game theory as an area of mathematics only really kind of came into being in the 1950s and wargames were designed and intended to be a statistically accurate simulations for teaching real military members. "Games" did not really exist in those days. What Gygax was doing was organizing and regimenting "let's play pretend" for a small clique of extremely autistic or aspergers-afflicted manchild geeks, of whom he was loud and socially-oriented enough to have become dominant.
Gygax was as you say not an educated or intelligent person. He was a selfish, arrogant, opinionated asshole. And a plagiarist. And a thief. He was a textbook malignant narcissist, and so the construction of the game was an effort which served his ulterior purpose: he wanted a mechanism by which he could exert power and control over others in his social circle. The "game" gave him an excuse to *preside* over a small clump of sycophantic rubes. The shitty farce of "rules" was the sheer veil which concealed this from the morons. He loved playing Mother May I as long as he was the Mother. People slavishly begging him for approval was his heroin. He, like all malignant narcissists, HAD TO HAVE IT.
D&D survived and grew in spite of him. Not because of him. He was the primary threat to it, and remained the primary threat to it for the next twenty years until he was kicked out and ostracized.

The entire OSR movement is a combination of ignorant kids who don't know this lore, and decrepit Boomers who are themselves malignant narcissists who also realize the ulterior utility of the game as an excuse to sit on a throne and abuse a social group's attention.

>>97929214
Oh look, it's the faggot that hates Gary Gygax again.

>the thread is now devolved to two guys seething bitterly about Gygax and 1e
I don't know how it could possibly become more obvious that the "reeeeee no you can't define the OSR correctly!" niggers are just trolls who hate old-school D&D.

>>97929220
Go suck his dead rotten dick.

>>97928999
We both know there is no convincing argument that you could present
Everything else is just smoke and mirrors you are trying to hide behind

>>97929220
>>97929225
At least three.

>>97929274
>no there are at least three bitter retards seething about Gygax and 1e becuase we hate the OSR!
Believe it or not, the exact *number* of you idiots is not the crux here.

>>97929235
Your insane and your trying to carry out some sort of grudge against a man who has been dead for nearly twenty years and can no longer defend himself. I don't even like OSR, I just think you're a schizo in dire need of help.

>>97929321
>>Your insane and your
lol
Should be, you're, obviously.

>>97929220
no, it's the faggot that trolls you because you worship Gygax and always bite his bait

>>97929321
Defend himself??? Dude, it's not like any of this shit hasn't been documented. It's drama so ancient and so thoroughly uncontroversial, that you literally grew up without being aware of it because it was settled long before you were fucking born. Gygax was a shitty person, an incompetent game designer and an a sloppy author. That's not even up for debate. It's just news to you.
Shut the fuck up, little kid. Seriously.

>>97929443
And yet what he did casually while high on coke will be more impactful and long-lasting than the entire summation of your life's work

>>97929214
>The entire OSR movement
You shouldn't judge an entire movement by its worst members.

A fair amount of OSR people recognize Gary as a hack and D&D to always have been riddled with issues, but can also recognize that there's plenty of ideas worth preserving and celebrating, particularly ideas from writers/designers other than Gygax.

>>97929458
>And yet what he did casually while high on coke will be more impactful and long-lasting than the entire summation of your life's work
Just like Lil B's body of work.

>>97929502
U mean tha BASEDGOD¿

>>97900582
Well, the thread is starting to dumpster-fire. But still
I sort of run whatever seems to fit the group. My preferred system is a lightly-hacked version of LotFP. It's got decent mechanics in place for hexcrawling, running pre-Name level domains and manors, and in general was built on a backbone of sitting down and throwing some fucking dice. I also thematically like silver standard, alignment carved down to Law/Chaos as a question of "who owns your soul" not a personality test, the preference for more unique or folkloric monsters over generic templates, and the ways it makes Fighters stay relevant at later levels. It's also much easier to teach new players from scratch. If the main rulebook art scares them off they probably don't want to be in my games anyway.
As far as other editions go? 1e, B/X, 2e, and Companion all have their own issues and holes. If someone expresses a preference I'll fire up what they want. I've got a bunch of old Judges' Guild and Role Aids supplements for gap filling, and I'll gleefully port dungeons, monsters, magic spells and items from just about anything into them.

Pillage the mechanics you like, use them as a framework, interpret them for the players and be open/consistent. That's all you really have to do.

Also:
The entire reason people shit on 2e isn't the mechanics, it's about TSR trying to dictate who characters are and what kind of game you're allowed to play. The entire debate is about tone, caused by autists unable to let shit go or try to engage with other people's viewpoint. I say this as an autist with 20 years of therapy under my belt.

>>97930680
Sadly you can't stop a set group of trolls from trolling. All you can do is flag and ignore them.

I look over a lot of OSR games, but rarely play most. I think I gave LotFP a look over pre covid maybe?

Good soild list of reasons you like it. Silver standard alone makes it interesting IMO and I normally do not use Alignment so padding it down is a step in the right direction.


On the 2e hate, never got it and will never fully understand it myself. I don't often have an issue if folks dislike it for whatever reasons, just be honest about it. Don't cliam it's a vastly different game than 1e mechanically when it's not or it's somehow not OSR . It's fine to just not like a thing

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>>97930680
>The entire reason people shit on 2e isn't the mechanics, it's about TSR trying to dictate who characters are and what kind of game you're allowed to play

It is the most incredible irony that you would say this.

Gygax built 1e AD&D as a "structured and complete game system aimed at uniformity of play world-wide." He really thought he could make a game with rules so thorough that players could play under different DMs and still have an identical experience.

He failed, and failed hard, and this was most immediately apparent during large tournaments with several DMs running identical modules and even being overseen by a higher level of judges, and there was still dramatic differences because players have infinite options and there would always be so much left open to interpretation that needed improvised rulings.

At the time, the "AD&D" line was considered split and separate from the "D&D" line, which started with the original D&D and continued with Basic and then B/X and then BECMI. This D&D "promoted alteration and free-wheeling adaptation," something that AD&D "absolutely decried."

What 2e did was take AD&D, but offer DMs more flexibility and options, with official variant options and advice aimed at guiding DMs to find what worked best for their own groups, instead of seeking that "uniformity of play world-wide".

For people who wanted 1e AD&D's promise of a more rigid "complete game system aimed at uniformity of play world-wide" over D&D's "free-wheeling adaptation", 2e had a philosophy that had moved in the exact opposite direction than the one they had wanted. 2e did this because most people did not actually play 1e that rigidly, but the minority of diehard grognards found this entirely unacceptable.

Their hatred is not very honest and fairly stupid. The AD&D system went from "Either play in this way, or go play something else!" to "Play in the way you want", and to that first group that was a great betrayal.

>>97930779
You can see this in the rulebooks. 2e never tries to dictate what kind of character or what kind of game you can play; it offers several layers of options and variants and endlessly encourages DMs to decide for themselves what kind of game they wish to play, while providing advice on how they should go about it.

Whether it's how often monsters appear, or how and when XP is distributed, the books go out of their way to explain not the "one way" that it must be done, but what a DM must consider in order for them to make the choice themselves.

>>97929458
No one has to prove themselves to you, anon. You can like whatever you like and you can admire whoever you want to admire. No one cares about impressing you.

>>97929488
Technically true. But your comment is buried between comments by users proving my point. So the victory is rendered a bit hollow.

>>97900582
GURPS Dungeon Fantasy is the best OSR. End thread.

>>97900582
Pulp fantasy using a modified 1e architecture.
Laser wielding men with gliding wings, wizards trying to compromise the fabric of reality to bring their hordes over, legionnaires in power armor.

>>97931045
Just no on GURPS ;)

>>97931064
Hell yell son!( Fist bump)

>>97931176
Hell yell sell! (Fell bell)

>>97930680
>starting to dumpster-fire.
Anon, OP started with a totally vapid question no one can follow up with for more than a post and specified
>no trolling plz
It was doomed from the start. Purposefully so I'd figure.

>>97931238
>Purposefully so I'd figure.
Of course it was. This thread was started by the usual, ocean-smelling suspect to start shit. Nobody else believes in a "broad definition of the OSR".

>>97928715
>Melan, Trent and others creating OSR content from the earliest days
Literally who? Who died and made these guys arbiters of the OSR.

>>97931336
They're two of the people who created the OSR. The fact that you don't know this makes it very hard to take your ridiculous claims seriously.

>>97931238
No, I just was wondering and was hoping we could talk without the normal trolls carrying out Thier jihad. But y'all always show up to shit on everything

>>97928999
>but we both know that no matter what answer I gave
You've yet to give one
>"It's not because i said so"
>"If you can't understand why, you're the troll."

>>97931476
Wrong
That was Billy and Andrew, the original OSR creators
Don't either bother asking who they are, this would out you as a fake OSR fan and a troll

>>97931336
bloggers and OSR contributors
the first one is a magyar publishing a somewhat OKish zine
the second [I'm guessing here] is likely Trent Foster notably one the [many-many] OSRIC contributors
both are known to be somewhat strongly opinionated OSR fundamentalist and most definitely don't represent any sort of consensus over OSR topics
nor is it surprising someone wouldn't know who those are

our retarded osrg fren here seems to have stumbled upon their blogs a couple of years ago
and now cherrypicks their opinions as the only true opinion on anything OSR related

>>97931564
You get shit on because you like it. If you actually posted about gameplay from the games you actually play and had questions or ideas around those it would get discussion. All you want to do is be a fuckwit in public and get attention from it.

>>97933068
He posts like this because he has an actual mental disability.
Only possible way to justify how someone can have something explained to them in detail so many times and still stubbornly refuse to get it.
At least he's no longer posting in /osrg/, hopefully if he continues his tantrum across the board as a whole eventually the mods will Ol' yeller him.

>>97933068

Lol you guys think everyone is one guy. That is some weird conspiracy shit there dude

>>97933126
>whole
Op here, I posted in osrg one time like in March. When it was clear 2e wasn't welcome I moved to the 2e thread at the time. I do point out osrg has a very weird definition of OSR, but not every guy is the same weirdo who keeps posting in osrg.

Y'all are jumping at shadows

>>97931704
2e is not OSR for the same reason that shadowdark is not OSR.
If your peabrain can't actually comprehend this, then I cannot help you

>>97925995
That’s some odd faggot knowledge you have there, but it would have been easier to say:
>I’m a contrarian loser that hates the founder of rpg gaming xP
In a way you’re right though, because it should just be called Real D&D instead.

>>97933940
lmao
it's like the cult thing
>if you are blind to see X is the real god I can't help you

>>97934161
You need meds. It's children's games, with a lime excluding times that are off topic.

Seriously, get help you freak

>>97934201
Line**

>>97900582
B/X clones, it's my happy ground of having defined enough rules to facilitate the game style I like to play / run while being light enough that I don't get lost in the weeds of verisimilitude like spells components and heavily detailed hiring and construction rules.
the only thing I think it really lacks that that if I get to run something long term again, I'd like to house rule in 1e combat and weapon speeds in

>>97934428
BX clones are very popular. Aby particular one you use?