Haha. DUDE WWEEEDDD.

Jamie. Pull up that video of a gorilla high on LSD.

Garbage can of a thread.

At least it's a fresh shitpost. A low-effort one, sure, but new material. With the current state of the board, that's something, right?

>>97927189
P-zombies aren't lack of introspection, they're lack of internal conscious experience.

The bicameral mind theory also doesn't prevent introspection, but rather dictates a theological framing for it, and is stuck with very limited evidence due to conjecturing novel neurological details from sparse writings. A decidedly more likely model for such a thing than neurological bicameralism is the fucking "plural" community emulating or inducing dissociative disorders or perhaps the tulpa-forming crowd on /x/.

Finally, the players' influence is not a separate diegetic thing from the character, but rather what makes up the character's in-setting behaviors in the first place.

>>97927189
>when they lost Bicameral Mind, BRONZE AGE COLLAPSE happened
You haven’t actually read Jaynes, have you? He posits that the Bronze Age Collapse was a factor that led to movement away from the bicameral mindset, not the other way around.

That said, there are definitely some questionable priors underlying Jaynes’s work. No discussion is raised of uncontacted peoples and whether or not they’ve displayed his bicameral mindset, and yet one would assume that small cultural groups that had never encountered any of his pressures away from bicamerality would still display it. He assumes that the form and structure of epic poetry - a format designed for ease of memorization and repetition - would accurately replicate the full texture of a culture’s psychology and philosophy, when it seems more probable that simplification would be the norm. And, most perplexingly, he discusses a period in which children were born with bicameral mindsets and had to be socialized into consciousness without really explaining why that would have stopped being the case, presenting an odd kind of psychological Lamarckism.

It’s an interesting notion, and it’s very possible that it grasps the edge of something, but there’s a reason that it isn’t a more widely known concept.

>>97927216
Imagine being paid to post something like this.

>>97927189
Of course D&D characters have thoughts, there are mechanics that directly interact with them and in the good editions clear benchmarks for Mindlessness those mechanics fail against.

>>97927189
Op watches Tor Parsons

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>>97927689
Stop posting your guidelines, you should remember them by now

>>97927189
>>>/x/

Huh, it's a thread predicated on a book that isn't literature. Oh well, fresh shit is still shit, and this off-topic bullshit won't get deleted.

>>97927400
The thing with the uncontacted people is that they probably have an even earlier mindset. It's still worth studying them but I wouldn't assume they'd tell us too much about early civilized people (unless we let them develop through to that level and studied them along that path, not too likely).

Bicameral Mind Theory seems to be more about the early civilized people, human beings who were already part of an abstractly large culture, whose lives already relied on countless strangers that they'd never meet and whose day to day already involved large numbers of strangers they'd never get to know.

>>97927676
If he did he would know that Jaynes' hypothesis is very questionable

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This was the premise of Mogworld, at least in part. It was a fantasy world slowly becoming an MMORPG, with the characters who become players becoming Pi Zombies, all seen from the perspective of people within the fantasy world.

>>97929254
>Pi Zombies
"Perspective"-Zombies, OP.

Fine, you made me think up a game pitch.

>A low-fantasy bronze-age setting where the gods had been *very* active in people's lives but, suddenly, the gods abandon their people. The few civilizations about fall into chaos - invasion, famine, disease - and all without their gods to guide them. Can a group of warriors take their destiny into their own hands and rise to be the heroes that people so desperately need in this new, fallen age?

>>97928646
That does make it relevant for like the Aztecs and Incas at least though and they seem to have been able to interact with the Spanish exactly like they all had the same type of mind. If those examples aren't quite at the threshold you're imagining, Europeans encountered people at basically every civilizational level to put it like that and at no point is there clear miscommunication or culture clash based on a difference between modern and bicameral minds.

Europeans and natives everywhere had obvious culture clash, but at a base level, when they wanted to, were able to consider each others perspectives and make reasonable speculations regarding what the other side might do based on their interests.

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>>97927189

>>97927189
I bet you thought this was really deep and insightful, while not at all knowing that the whole left-brain right-brain idea has long since been disproven as total bullshit. Not to mention that there's zero evidence to back up his whole idea that people didn't have any introspection or internal thoughts before an arbitrary period of time, and plenty to show that the human mind had not, in fact, gone through some radical structural change at a random point in history.

>>97927189
>pi zombie
incredible display of midwittery

>>97929398
What? no, It's philosophical zombie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie

>>97930387
>>97930448
Yeah, there's a reason tge bicameral mibd hypothesus isn't widely accepted, or ecen widely taken seriously. It's not necessarily impossible, but there's pretty much no evidence for it.

>>97930475
It's pretty clearly OP getting things wrong on purpose. Some people really do think that pretending to be retarded is all there is to the art of trolling, and since it keeps working, they might be right.

is a pie zombie different from a pee zombie?

>>97927189
>they hear voices from the players telling them what to do
No they don't lmao. Only the crazy ones do (affectionate)

>>97927189
This is actually the premise for a short story I was writing a long time ago

>>97932092
Okay. "Pi" remains an inaccurate contraction, so the purpose of pointing out an overlapping error with the opening post to call out OP for not engaging with any responses in favor of just asserting even less on-board-topic bullshit.

>>97934729
Holy sentence construction fail, batman. This is the blind leading the blind.

>>97932271
yes. it's a three zombie