>>737130640

Beat em ups are pigeon holed as too arcade-y for the average casual. You basically have to jingle the flashy graphics keys if you want to keep their attention.

>>737130640
3d games suck. beat em ups are all about positioning and managing enemies, both of which suck with 3d movement and a limited perspective
fwiw the juggling of character action games work well enough for a distinct variation

>>737130640
>Why haven't side-scrolling beat-em-ups done as well in the 3D era?
I think it's a multitude of things. Arcade design fell by the wayside with the advent of consoles becoming more mainstream. Why go outside and pay per play when you can play as much as you want in the comfort of your own home? At the same time having people pay $50 for a 1-hour game is a hard sell so games had to be longer non-arcade romps.
3D also allowed developers to do other kinds of new things which was probably more exciting than just doing the same kind of thing. SpikeOut came out on the Japanese arcades in 1998 but I guess it didn't do well enough or was too advanced to get ported to home consoles.

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>>737131285
>beat em ups are all about positioning and managing enemies, both of which suck with 3d movement and a limited perspective
That's exactly the thing, though. It's not.
2D beat-em-ups have always had this problem where you need to be on the same "plane" as your enemy in order to punch him. If you're too far in front or too far in back, your hits will never land.
You'd think 3D beat-em-ups would be objectively superior in this regard. You'd know EXACTLY which direction your character is facing, and where their punches are gonna land.
And yet I don't know. Perhaps you're right. I'm not sure myself; it's why I started this thread. To find out.
>>737131380
I can understand why 3D beat-em-ups would've done poorly in the PS3/PS4 eras. But there's more "nostalgia-bait indislop" now than anyone can keep track of. "Retro pixel graphics" and "PS1 models" up the wazoo. Wouldn't this be a more natural fit than another 2D platformer? Lord knows Unity and Unreal seem easy enough to use now.

>>737130640
that looks ugly

>>737130640
Kings of Hell came out and was pretty damn good.
And gay as hell. But that's besides the point.

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>>737132695
It's "9 Monkeys of Shaolin." One of the only 3D side-scrolling beat-em-ups I've ever played.
Don't remember why I never completed it. Maybe it's just because it looked ugly, and felt unfinished.
Perhaps I should've found another person to play it with. Maybe that would've allowed its better qualities to shine. But idk; maybe not.
>>737132791
Interesting; don't think I've heard of that one.
Will have to check it out.

>>737130640
The main reason that beat 'em ups work as 2d is because 2d gives the illusion of difficulty and takes away the idea of 360 degrees
The best 3d beat 'em ups aren't even beat 'em ups, it's a clear 'has a block/dodge/counter' button due to the mechanics of the movement/approaching
Plus there's the concept of hitting multiple enemies at once in the 2d space that won't carry over to 3d

3D beat 'em ups could work but it would be pretty shit. See Shifu or Batman Arkham or even one shit like Crisis Beat or Fighting Force. It's slow paced without a specific 'fuck off' button or else the enemies generally only come at you one on one or they look janky as fuck missing

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>>737132960
>The best 3d beat 'em ups aren't even beat 'em ups, it's a clear 'has a block/dodge/counter' button due to the mechanics of the movement/approaching
Interesting. Do you have any examples of this?
> Plus there's the concept of hitting multiple enemies at once in the 2d space that won't carry over to 3d
That's actually a really interesting point.
You could do something akin to God of War's old combat system, where every swing swipes multiple enemies at once. But then you'd have to zoom the camera way the fuck out -- like even more that GoW does to accommodate two players -- and then all the characters would look like fighting ants.
>>737132791
>>737132946
Just looked up that "Kings of Hell" thing. And holy shit you were right about it being gay as hell. The characters swear like Vivziepop characters, and their designs are all just gay furry art.
Are you sure the gameplay makes up for it? Cuz I dunno.
I've also been meaning to play this game called "Big Helmet Heroes." Have the demo installed from Steam, but haven't opened it up yet. Not sure why.

>>737130640
little big planet ruined all chances of 2.5D being popular

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>>737133568
*even more than God of War does
Fuck. Typo.

>>737133568
GoW is a beat 'em up and has a dodge mechanic
Games that don't are mostly on the PS1 and it's incredibly awkard like spiderman 1/2, fighting force, crisis beat, etc

The big thing with beat 'em ups is managing enemies, outside of bosses. You can't really do that in 3D games. Like take Golden Axe 1 for a very simplistic example. Longmoans tend to charge (as do several enemies) at a half screen distance or more but only if it gets on the same vertical axis, so a lot of the gameplay with some enemies is managing to not get hit by this or ideally, not be on the same vertical axis by regularly moving and, at times, baiting it out if needed.

Things like that can't be done properly on a 3D plane really. Combat is too charactic without a clear 'get me the fuck out of here' via counter or a generic dodge which means you can just spam it.

The 2d version of this is a 'special' attack or magic - ie limited resources. Golden Axe was magic. Streets of Rage was a one use (in the first game), then a health drain (second) then health drain only if it didn't recharge (third).

Beat 'em Ups fundementally change gamepolay in 3d

>>737132669
>Wouldn't this be a more natural fit than another 2D platformer? Lord knows Unity and Unreal seem easy enough to use now.
The individuals making indie games now aren't dudes who grew up with arcade games and enjoyed beat 'em ups and like arcade design, they're the ones who grew up with platformers on the SNES or whatever.
People make what they know and the people who knows beat 'em ups are a small minority, and making a good one is especially hard.
It's not like we don't have any, just last Steam Next Fest I played two belt scrollers and the Next Fest before that I played 3 or 4. I played another one after the latest Next Fest too. Aside from those indie ones there's Absolum and Rotwood and Lost Castle 2 and Scott Pilgrim and Marvel Cosmic Invasion in just the past year.

>>737130640
Musou? Character Action?

>>737130640
You still need talent, has nothing to do with 3D/2D.

Its probably worse going 3D as it looks more janky.

>>737134162
>Combat is too charactic without a clear 'get me the fuck out of here' via counter or a generic dodge which means you can just spam it.

In TMNT Shreder's Revenge the game launched with a taunt move which builds your meter back up so you can spam supers as much as you want.

It was retard level game design they patched it as an option toggle later on. I'm guessing the game was envisioned only for parents playing with their kids or general purpose button mashers.

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>>737134162
Ah, I see. So you're defining the 3D beat-em-ups with dedicated dodge mechanics as "not true beat-em-ups?" Because they have unique elements not seen in 2D?
I dunno. That feels like kind of a narrow definition. "God Hand" is a 3D beat-em-up all about "managing enemies" and not getting swarmed, and it's considered one of the closest things to the older-school 2D beat-em-ups out there. But it has a dodge mechanic too; just not a very good one.
Still, I hear your point. The 3D games ARE fundamentally different from the 2D ones. Even so, that still doesn't explain why there haven't been any great 3D beat-em-ups yet. However you cut it, infinite-juggling an enemy with your buddy in 3D should still be fun.

>>737130640
No idea. Viewtiful Joe was an amazing series.

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>>737134305
> Musou
Huh. So THAT'S what that genre's called.
I have to confess, I haven't played many "Musou" games. Perhaps this is a sign that I should
But yeah: I was thinking more like a spectacle fighter. Or I suppose a "character action game," like you said.

I've gotta say: I'm not a fan of that term. "Character Action Game." It feels clunky as hell. But I suppose it's what I'm talking about here, since "Devil May Cry" is a spectacle fighter and "God of War" is not.
I'm just trying to analyze good beat-em-up & hack-&-slash games in general. And figure out why there haven't been any popular co-op 3D ones.

>>737134804
No, I'm talking 2d vs 3d and why there's a difference

3D beat 'em ups can work but they are fundementally not 2D beat 'em ups and a 3d side scrolling could technically be done if we imagine something like room to room but it's just not going to play like a 2D version is the point

>>737134804
>But it has a dodge mechanic too; just not a very good one.

I thought Double Dragon had a dodge mechanic that I didn't know how to input, but it's just something the CPU randomly uses that the player can't.

>>737130640
they are ugly

>>737132669
You've got it. It's easy to tell what "plane" a character sprite is standing on and so it's easier to determine exactly what plane the character is on and have a better idea of what they can hit. 3D character models, since they have natural depth, make it a lot more unclear where your character exactly is and so makes it a lot less clear what they can attack. Plus, while drawn spritework has generic attack "swings" which clearly imply that they're attacking on the same plane. With 3D models, the attack swings are going to look like they'd hit around and beside the character, making it all look even stranger when they don't.

Sure, you could just give everybody arcing swings which can hit above/below their standing plane, but then it gets even more confusing about which attacks can hit which enemies at what times.

The only belt-scroller games I've seen use an 8-way-run didn't implement it very well either. It either locked you back onto the typical left-right directional attack when you took a swing, or had an odd diagonal directional attack exclusively when moving that direction when everything else was left or right. It didn't work very well, and I'm assuming that most people making belt-scroller beat-em-ups are mostly pandering to nostalgia rather than trying to work at inventing new systems.

>>737132669
>Wouldn't this be a more natural fit than another 2D platformer?
You can shove a lot of content into a metroidvania or a zelda-like or even a Diablo-like. It's a lot harder to get a lot of content on a beat-em-up. They were always typically just a half-dozen levels long, and if you don't have a way to keep people playing for 20+ hours then they'll probably just refund it and leave a bad review.

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>>737136128
I mean am I wrong? Sure it's functional, but it's kinda clunky as hell. Feels like something that would've been better implemented with a D-pad; I don't know why they went for the right stick.
Rest of the combat is fuckin great, though. Possibly the best ever: idk why other games don't let you build your own combos from the menu. It's just the dodging that feels weird.
>>737137083
Lel. I never heard of this one.
>>737140951
I take it your first (You) was meant for >>737133568
Still, you raise very interesting points. Guys like you are why I raise questions like this around here; thanks.

Dust?

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>>737141531
>Lel. I never heard of this one.
You can gun-kata trannies

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>>737141531
>I take it your first (You) was meant for >>737133568
Yes, sorry about that.

>Guys like you are why I raise questions like this around here
Sometimes, you can wade thru all the crap and find some actual insights. Or, at least, opinions that aren't just repeated from other websites for reply-baiting.

>>737141561
>Dust?
That's really more of a platformer, You're moving left-right but there's no depth-of-field to walk back into. It's basically Odin Sphere/Muramasa (fast paced platformer) compared to Dragon's Crown (side scrolling beat-em-up).

>>737130640
Even if the graphics (models and environments) were 3D, a belt scroller would still be a 2D perspective game. Bmups are a 2D genre. When you move it to 3D, you have to limit 3D movement or else you made a character action game.

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>>737142070
Right. That's why I keep coming back here.
I have an entire list of threads I started to ask specific /v/ questions. I even save the ones that die immediately, for some autistic reason.
It's a strange habit, for sure. But there's nowhere better to find interesting takes on any unique vidya questions one might have.

>>737130640
Not enough skinner box mechanics to create dopamine addiction
Most modern "gamers" are just dopamine addicts and not real gamers, thats why the genres of games that are popular today are not the same as classic genres

>>737142563
based autism

>>737132669
>2D beat-em-ups have always had this problem where you need to be on the same "plane" as your enemy in order to punch him. If you're too far in front or too far in back, your hits will never land.
>You'd think 3D beat-em-ups would be objectively superior in this regard. You'd know EXACTLY which direction your character is facing, and where their punches are gonna land.
>And yet I don't know. Perhaps you're right. I'm not sure myself; it's why I started this thread. To find out.
2D belt makes the gameplay surprisingly interesting by virtue of offering three conceptually different dimensions: left-right, fore-back, and jump. Ironically, 3D games offer less, as all horizontal directions are the same.
You can always draw a direct line between you and an enemy in a 3D game, so positioning matters much less. Being in-plane or off-plane with an enemy in a 2D game makes a great difference and it makes the game fun to play. It's stupid, but it looks natural and it feels natural, and it works.