it also looked like shit, worse than nomura-core aesthetic really

such a mid game btw
i really wanted to love it (i completed DLCs and side content)
only things I remember being good are the soundtrack, the QTE boss battles (ironically) and cid's voice actor

its original sin was being included in the franchise: shouldn't have been a FF but maybe an original IP

The spear at least makes sense under Sanbreque and the dragoons. The ink was made from that flower.

Releasing poison if you try to remove it is kind of BS.

Nothing in FF16 was well thought out. It was very blatantly just an attempt to draw in the God of War audience.

>>3957031
But Japan doesn't like God of War

Why didn't the Undying, who were present at Phoenix Gate that very night, do anything about the attack?
Why didn't any of them get Joshua from his room? Why did Wade have to do it?
Why did a chambermaid notice that Annabella had moved all her belongings out of the castle a week beforehand and notified the Duke of this, but the Undying were apparently unaware?
Why didn't they rescue Clive?
Why did Ultima just so happen to be wearing the exact same cloak Joshua would be wearing in the future?
Where did Joshua hear Ultima's name in the first place? The Undying said they had no idea about him until Joshua ordered them to investigate.
Why does Primogenesis randomly disappear at times?
Why did Joshua continue killing himself to keep Ultima in his chest even when he was well aware that Ultima was still just floating out there doing whatever the fuck he wanted anyway?
Why do major characters including the main heroine have their conclusions hidden in sidequests while you spend 6 hours a piece on Martha, the Dame, and L'ubor?
Why did Sanbreque never notice the giant tidal wave frozen in time about a mile up the shoreline from their capitol city, or why did they never investigate it?
Why did Ultima spend so much time driving Sanbreque to world conquest only for it to amount to nothing at all and not aid in his plan in any way because he already had control of all the world's nations and could have activated worldwide mind control at any time?
Why was Clive's unit sent to kill Shiva's dominant, when Sanbreque at the time was fighting Waloed? Why would they aid their enemy? Why was Clive's random unit of prisoner soldiers sent to kill an eikon at all?

>>3957473
I'll get back to you on all of these in about two hours.

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>>3957761
>12 hours later.

>>3957473
I don't have answers for all of these. I would say that most of them are artifacts of story revisions. That they were planning something else. The DLC makes things a lot worst.

Let's start with the fact that Dion and Joshua are about the same age. According to Tomes, Dion joined the command of the Dragoons once he awoke as Bahamut's dominants. The previous Bahamut was his grandfather, I believe.
Joshua and Dion met at a "Remembrance Ceremony". Someone died. But the details about that are fuzzy. I'm not certain, but I think it had to do with the passing of the previous Bahamut.

Clive received the "blessing of the phoenix", that's why he has that "Dash" ability.
I believe the Dragoons all have the "blessing of bahamut", explaining their "jump" ability.
The ninja/assassin you fight in the woods, I believe had the blessing of "Garuda"

Think of it like FF15's Kingsglave. They are not magic bearers, they get their power from a dominant.

I'm not sure if Jill's father, was Shiva's Dominant, or if he just had the "blessing of shiva". Supposedly, Clive and Joshua's grandfather fought regularly against Shiva. Jill became a ward of Rosaria as part of a truce. I want to say, they were all forming alliances while their Dominants were out of the picture.

Then there's the "Great Houses". It sounds like these could be the lineages of the Dominants. Or they could just be Nobels in Rosaria. Joshua has 1 of 7 swords while at Phoenix Gate.
So, in my mind, they were doing a Knights of the Round thing. Possibly they were the "Circle of Malius".

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>>3958070
The function of Phoenix Gate, and the Apodytery below, has to do with the flow of Aether.

The game isn't super clear on this. But I think Aether is a limited resource. Were does it come from? The sky or the stars. "Aether floods" seemingly fall from the atmosphere.
That's why the Fallen Civilization had floating temples in the sky. That's where the fuel source was. When you fight Bahamut up in space, there's so much aether up there. Bahamut is just channeling it.

In the primordial age, The Ultima Civilization supposedly used it all up on the planet. Until they found Valisthea. Ultima called it pristine like "fallen snow". I think what they really meant was that there was a pool of Aether underground. So the Apodytery, and the Reverie Towers in Ash, was a system to circulate that aether back into the atmosphere.

The star next to the moon. That is apparently some kind of observational platform. It's part of a dimensional elevator connected to Origin. The "Jade Passage". It might also have been a kind of pump to channel more Aether back to earth. I think it was used at the height of the Fallen Civilization...before they fell. In Japanese they were called the Celestials, but this somehow escaped the English localization, except the small bit about bearers "bearing the blessing of the stars"

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>>3958094
The concept of Ultima in FF16, has to be connected to Ultima in FF12/Tactics/Ivalice, as well as the Goddess Etro in the Fabula Nova mythos, (and FF15 despite), and even Jenova in FF7.

The principle of the Mako Reactors in FF7, is that Jenova was a beating heart. In the concept art, she's literally a giant heart.
In FF15, the crystal is also the heart of the world.
A lot FF16's worldbuilding is jumping of what FF15 was trying to tell with it's Solheim Civilization - which saw "water" as the death of "fire".

All of this can trace back to FF2. Where they had a kingdom built around a fallen star or "Sunfire" (which created the Jade Passage). In the novelization, they don't use the Sunfire to blow up the Dreadnaught. Instead the Leviathan guarding the Mysidia Tower (and the Ultima Scroll) jumped out of the water and swallowed it.

In FF16, Ultima doesn't care for Leviathan. The Occuria in FF12 likewise don't care for Famfrit. Even thought it's their creation, they call it "anathema". Like they are soiling themselves by using it. It is "Sin". The "Sins of dzemekys" in FF16, The Pharos in FF12, and Zanarkand's Sin in FFX are all echoing the same thing.

>>3956646
Making 16 not an FF game might fix the fact it doesn't fit mechanically into the series history but it wouldn't fix the massive problems with the story.

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>>3958114
I think the general idea is that "possession" is beneath you when you have "creation magic".

The point of Resurrecting Ultima in FFT, was so the Lucavii could have their own bodies again.

>>3957336
Square Enix likes money.

>>3958070
>>3958094
>>3958114
Haven't played any FF game since FFX.
This all sounds needlessly complicated.

>>3956663
>>3956589
>Get to explore the Rosfield castle a little bit
>Get the absolute fucking PEAK of castle design that is Sanbreque and the Storm place
>Don't get to explore them or see them at all in an action setting
This game has a lot of missed potential
>>3957473
>1st question till question 9 or so
Fair questions all throughout, this game's directing is a little bit schizoid and MMO-brained as you can tell by the terrible sidequests and the way things are organized. It almost feels like two different settings and games pasted together (a competent DMC-like and a mediocre MMO)
>Why did Sanbreque never notice the giant tidal wave
It was located in the blighted lands of the North previously which was widely considered inhospitable, and it had a sort of Magic on it (whatever that means in this universe) that kept it hidden from general perception. The DLC is unironically some actual well-written bullshit for once, and it should have been part of the conclusion instead of the very ass 2nd continent
>Why did Ultima spend so much time in Sanbreque
Grooming Clive
>Why Clive sent to kill Shiva
The Empire was allied with the Merchants and had intended to split the continent, the Iron Islands that Shiva was enslaved too were also asshole raiders who attacked everyone so it was in common interest. tldr No one likes islanders and for good reason

>>3958070
>Dion and Josh are about the same age
This is probably one of the newest pieces of bullshit I have heard, I believe it's true but they look so far away in terms of age.
>>3958305
>Needlessly complicated
Pretty much, it's because Square (or really CBU3) wanted to both make an entirely new set of mythos for their setting but also they wanted to direct it along the lines of AoT and Game of Thrones, which don't entirely combine stylistically. Every FF is needlessly complicated under the hood, but the surface level lore and story you get is for the most part very mundane and practically (FF8 being a love story for instance). They just decided to abandon the pretense of at least letting the main story be simple for this one just like they tried with 15 but there wasn't any dev hell to cause the story to be schizophrenic

>>3958326
>It was located in the blighted lands of the North previously which was widely considered inhospitable, and it had a sort of Magic on it (whatever that means in this universe) that kept it hidden from general perception.
The tidal wave isn't hidden. You can stand on the coastline and see it. They never investigated a giant magical anomaly?
>Why did Ultima spend so much time in Sanbreque
>Grooming Clive
He didn't even know Clive was in Sanbreque the entire time he was a slave.

>>3956589


All JRPGs tend have stories full of plot holes and incomplete lore. Usually character development and exploration are what keep people coming back. Too bad FF16 had that stupid world map system and walled off travel to some areas at certain points - which kinda kills the drive to explore - not that there was a lot to see anyhow.

FF16 had great characters. But it was not a worthy follow up to 15, which by many accounts was kinda mid. And the Game of Thrones-esque swearing and screwing dialog was a bad choice that seems out of place in the series.

That said, FF16 also had a major problem that FF13 had. The enemies were damage sponges and even minor battles were too long and drawn out. You can tell they fell behind in development and were trying to pad it out.

And OP is right, the bearer tattoo thing was dumb. The whole bearer plot angle felt too forced desu. The whole nobody can use magic but summoners who have godlike power and are at the top of society while bearers are at the bottom and a bunch of muggles in the middle was too contradictory. Could have made it so magic use was common but certain kinds were banned. Otherwise just make the bearers black or something. "They are N-words and we abuse them." could be the whole sum of those plot angles.

Also, Ultima as the freak uncanny valley alien was kinda cool, his evolution into a generic space battlemage at the end was kinda dumb though. Seems cobbled together from a generic model. I wish they went the opposite route with him and made him more freakier and weird like Lovecraft or HR Giger.

>>3958378
>Waste resources going to a desolate wasteland for no reason where everyone assumes life cannot grow and that magic no longer exists or can be done (and will kill you eventually in common perception)
The game really tries to beat you over the head that only Cid's group has attempted living without magic or mana entirely, so I can kind of understand why no one in the Empire would ever try going over htere
>Ultima
Wasn't he also in the Joshua slave cage?

>>3958428
There's the whole "Outer Continent" thing we don't know much about. Cid only became Ramuh's Dominant when he came to Valisthea.

Clive absorbed all the Eikon powers. The Eikons themselves were still around. Although I think Bahamut is the only one to transform again after his encounter with Clive.
Presumably, Garuda and Ramuh, should have awakened in someone after the time skip.

>>3958447
But perhaps it's a Kingsglave situation. So Jill, Joshua, and Dion can still summon their Eikons because they have the "Blessing of Ifrit" or something like that.

>>3958395
>The whole nobody can use magic but summoners who have godlike power and are at the top of society while bearers are at the bottom
The game does actually address this with a sidequest that reveals the bearers used to be top dog until a revolution happened. The bearers being treated as subhumans is a dogma that persisted despite everyone forgetting the old dynamic. I do still agree that the slavery is le bad shit was massively overplayed though.

>>3958451
>>3958447
>>3958456
I feel like with the magical slave stuff as well as the whole "le only in valisthea does do dominants awaken" thing the setting does feel a bit insular, not so much in a good way. Particularly, I guess it's because it handles the problem the opposite of the way GoT handles the whole thing. In here it's
>All the high fantasy shit happens right here right now, including ayyliums, mechas, dark magic, turning dudes into monsters
while in Game of Thrones it's
>in the far south and the far east past the east continent all the crazy voodoo cool magic shit happens and you only briefly get to see what Red Wizards, Shadow Magic, and walking Gods is actually about
Of course, Martin is too doom-pilled and so into the whole subverting Tolkien to ever expand on the mysterious far off continent (that is a real place, and not at all a metaphysical fusion of heaven and the real world the way mysterious continents are written about in Tolkien's work)

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>>3958457
Everything about it was imitating HBO's GoT. Even the world map was made to look like the Opening Credit sequence.

>>3959063
Why would anyone want to imitate that shit after the obvious decline
I could understand if S1 had just aired or something but it's been years since that absolute turd of a show has been over

>>3959079
It did numbers and that's all boomer suits care about.

>>3959079
FF games are taking 10 years to develop. Maybe more. Still waiting on FF7 Remake Part 3.

Anyways, I believe the whole Phoenix Gate prologue was recycled from FF15 (or Versus 13, if you like). What was supposed to be a fight against Aranea in Insomnia before Ifrit attacks.

Because they all follow the pattern of the MC's father dying. And Ifrit appearing. Even though the stories diverged, I think it probably helped that they had some of the cinematography down.

The closest thing to "branded" in FF15 would have been the barcodes on the magiteck soldiers. You see more of that in the Prompto Episode DLC, which also heavily featured Aranea.

She had some Jill/Shiva vibes. I think whoever wrote those had to have also wrote scenes for FF16. Plus, FF15 and FF16 had a number of time skips.

I've played the game like 5 times now. There are parts where I'm leaning forward squinting like - what was the point of all this? What is happening?

Like, why did Waloed kidnap a bunch of people from Lostwing? Not the branded? What was the point? It's distracting because they're also going after the "Dominant of Fire" - that's all Clive cares about at the moment. And we don't even SEE the prisoners.

There was something going on in Sanbreque, with Terrorists and refugees from "The Bread Basket" the farmlands that were being infected with the blight. But later we learn about the Akashic in the mines. Were they covering that up? Was that what that was?
But Dion is in the dark about it?

There's a scene where Benedikta is talking to Joshua. But she's talking about Dion. Why? And when they get back to lostwing, they're singing Dion's praises. But Dion didn't save them.
Did they think Joshua was Dion?

There's a scene, Benedikta has a flashback. Then she senses something. Because there's an explosion. But Cid and Clive haven't done anything yet, because they're just now sneaking in. The explosion wasn't Joshua - it was a distraction by Jote to help the prisoners escape. Was Dion secretly there all along?

Then after that, Gav follows Joshua. And then end up at Kingsfall. But it's not Waloed chasing them, it's Sanbreque dragoons? I don't follow. Because the forces in the Fort are dead. Clive's unit is dead. Dion's unit was fighting Odin. Everyone else was pulled into the city to deal with the secret Akashic threat. Why were they chasing Gav? Gav isn't even a branded. He doesn't have magic.

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>>3956589
One of those things that feels like it's blatantly inspired/taken from Yasumi Matsuno (Yoshi P stated multiple times he fucking worships him), but didn't really get it either, the design is reminiscent of the rood from Vagrant Story

>>3959063
The castle mini's were some of the coolest shit and I wish we got to actually explore them properly, unfortunate that we couldn't
>>3959079
The GoT intro was and is sovl, despite all the failings of the show the intro has always been very cool

>>3959257
>Why did Waloed kidnap a bunch of prisoners
Ultima and Gigachad simp were trying to turn people into monsters, basically.
I can't explain the rest though, but I think the Akashic stuff was just ultima's plan?
>>3960004
I wish we got more Vagrant Story kino instead of just weird FF's trying to break the mold but none of the inventive ideas (Agni's philosophy, the weird puppet sci-fi) ever get the greenlight

>>3960653
That was after the timeskip.
Clive had yet to prove himself as "Mythos" material at that point in the story. In fact, it's only while fighting Garuda that Ultima is like "I found you".

Basically for 1000s of years, Ultima has been cross breading magic bearers with people who have high resistance to aether. That's the recipe for Dominants.
Eikons have only been around for like 600 years. 200 years from the start of their calendar system. What the Fallen had was Magitek Omnigear powersuits or something, which is what the Eikons were named after.

The eugenics program wasn't just humans. Chocobos and beastmen were all bred to be resistant to aether.

Clive isn't the first "Mythos" candidate. This is what Typhon is. These were probably other Sanbreque nobels turned akashic, that also had the potential of summoning Eikons. We see Typhon absorb Ramuh power. The catch is that when a candidate appears, the other dominants aren't around. That's why Ultima has Barnabas trying to bring the Dominants together.
He had Ramuh (briefly), Garuda, and Titan under his thumb. At the start of the game, this is why Barnabus refused to fight the Ironblood, because he'd have to kill Shiva.

I suspect a dropped story element was someone working against Ultima. Maybe another "Venat"-type guiding another Cid. Cid had attempted to destroy the Drake's Head mother crystal once before, but was stopped by Bahamut. But we don't know if that was Dion or the previous Bahamut. Dion was oblivious to Ultima, but maybe the previous Bahamut wasn't, and this is who changed Cid's mind.

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>>3960699
It might have also been a sentient beastman character.
Over in Ash, Odin was mainly fighting the beastmen. And they lost 1 mother crystal, but we're never told the story about it.

My money would be on a minotaur. Or something like Byblos.
It's surprising Byblos wasn't in FF16, giving his connection to Ifrit and the storybook framing device. Byblos was a demon in FF5 that trapped Ifrit in a book in an ancient library.
He also appears in Tactics, in the Bonus End Game dungeon.

I was composing a post the other night about brands and tattoos, and how that gimmick wouldn't work in the era of 2D games. In FFT, Ramza was branded a heretic. Just verbally. But in concept art, we see the heretic brand is something like a white bull skull. Possibly connecting heretics to Reavers (Byblo's monster class).

The first Minotaur we see in FF16 is at Kingsfall, where you rescue Gav. Apparently a Minotaur is part of Sir Crandel's story too, if you read the items flavor text.

I think what they ultimately did was combine bearers and beastman into a single oppressed class. Because Sanbreque's treatment of bearers is REALLY dark. Like, they're hunting them for sport. It would make more sense if they were half animal.

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>>3960713
It's interesting because they repeatedly tell you that Clive had a childhood obsession with books and plays. But this characterization comes in very late in the game. There's not a hint of it at all in the prologue.

But it would make a lot of sense if Ifrit was sealed in a book, and that's how Clive received it. Maybe it was a book he picked up in Stillwind from the beastmen?

'Cause this what bugs about the opening. The Stillwind segment, chasing goblins around, was so irrelevant. And then he goes to Phoenix Gate and just randomly awakens as Ifrit? At least Joshua "primes" from the trauma of watching his father die. Clive just has "headaches". It doesn't make any sense. On top of the fact that Clive sees this "2nd Dominate of Fire" as an external figure.
Rodney saw something
Jill and Torgal saw something
Cid and Gav saw something.

Then all of a sudden Clive is like "it was me!"
No. They must have revised the story. And we know they did, because the VA talks about redoing the opening line about "Moss the Chronicler" a million times.

>>3960816
Speaking of Moss, it's his rare journal that sets Joshua on the path to hunt Ultima.

Just connecting the dots here, imagining a plausible series of events. Joshua was in a coma for like 10 years after Phoenix Gate. He wakes up, and then - what? - reads this book that conveniently tells him Ultima is behind everything?
That would be easier to swallow if this book made an appearance, and had some controversy behind it that made it worth investigating.

>>3960699
Did the Fallen not have fake Eikons (Eikonoclasts)? Either way, I find it hard to believe the Fallen could ever actually lose to Ultima considering one of their inventions has the power to compress space to a singularity without any damage to itself

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>>3961464
The Fallen had magitek, Eikonoclasts, that the Eikons were named after. The Echoes DLC mentions something like "summoners", but I think they're like Sigma here ("summoner's horn"). Something closer to cyborgs.
The question is: what were they fighting? Because the "Dominants" hadn't evolved yet.

I'm 99% certain they took a page from Xenogears and they were fighting the Diabolos Corp. It's kind of the same setup.
Once Ultima saw humans could channel aether without crystals he used his Diabolos form to cull the undesirables.
As well as place a limiter on the bearers. That's the petrification curse.

>>3958305
Our resident FF schizo who keeps misconstruing his headcanon for the super secret meaning hidden in the meta by SE writers that ackshually links all of the games.

Do not indulge his delusions (though it's funny how mad he gets when called out on his bullshit).

>>3961658
I think everyone can tell the "sagespire" was supposed to be the final dungeon.
The developers even said that omega weapon wasn't suppose to be the boss, they wanted something original.

>>3961679
Case in point.

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>>3961679
Based on the concept art, I think the sagespire was probably originally meant to be the Drake's Eye Mothercrystal in the Northern Territories. Possibly recycled from that and Drakes Horn.

Technically "Drake's Tail" had 2 forms. I think the first design was probably meant to be Drake's Horn. The flower form makes sense as "Drakes Tail", because Drake's Tail was also the national flower, which is also the source of the brand's ink.

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>>3961780
The flower is called "Wyvern's Tail". (Same thing.)
Supposedly the heart of the Mothercrystals have their own defense system.

So Drake's Tail turned into a Wyvern Tail, because it was getting into Dion's head. I guess?

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>>3961781

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Gee, what Game of Thrones character could Dion correspond to?

>>3961786
The thing with GoT is that the HBO tv show overtook the contents of the books. IIRC, Loras in the show gets brainwashed by the church, and then I think they killed him off in an explosion. So Dion sorta follows that arc.

In the books, as far as we know, he was near death after taking Dragonstone castle. Which is appropriate for a bahamut parallel.

Ser Lora's lover was Renly. While Dion had Terrence.
Renly is killed by a shadow, and his death is framed on Brienne who later promises to look for Sansa Stark.

I believe the medicine girl that Terrence is ordered to take care off is a Sansa Stark parallel. But they never went anywhere with it!

I've suspected she might be a sister to Clive and Joshua. Or maybe a step-sister to Dion. A daughter thrown out by Annabella perhaps.

>>3961795
Before the Tide DLC came out, it was reasonable she was Leviathan's Dominant.

Surely Shula is a parallel to GoT's Brienne. So maybe Shula was meant to cross paths with Terrence and Kihel.

>>3961795
Shame you can't map out all the mysteries between them. I think the books cut off when Snow got linched. The last couple seasons of the HBO series was made up.

>>3961786
Retard who doesn't know Dion is based on prince Alus from Final Fantasy 3

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>>3962888
In the 3D remake, some people got gay vibes from Alus and Arc. Even though Alus is like 10 years old, and Arc is only comforting him because he's also an orphan.
In a manga adaption he's much older, and take on more of Aria's role I think.

Alus's father was being manipulated by Garuda, I think. Meanwhile Garuda doesn't even pretend to be an ally to Dion or Sanbreque (Like she is to Kupka)

What's interesting is that when Benedikta is talking to Joshua, she assumes he's the 2nd Eikon of Fire that killed the Phoenix. It's strange she doesn't just think it's the Phoenix. The 2nd Eikon of Fire is just a rumor, and it's been over 10 years, the Phoenix was bound to return somewhere.

>>3962884
Half and half made up, the general plot outline until the very end was provided for by Martin but all the ending setpieces was HBO original

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>>3957473
despite this messy writing, I at least don't have to read a god damn novel to get the actual ending of the game.

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>>3964617
because this fat fuck won't write an ending

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>>3964628
Some chunk of Winds of Winter was just story that was cut from Dance of Dragons.

But understanding what was going on in GoT kind of explains stuff that didn't make sense in FF16.

For example, Sanbreque abandons its capital because of the blight and the aether flood (And the destruction of the mother crystal).
So they occupy Twinside aka "The Crystal Dominion".
But the cutscenes in the throneroom look like they've always lived there. They've got a mural with dragons and everything.

I think the idea was that
Sanbreque = Kingslanding.
The Crystal Dominion = Dragonstone.

Maybe Bahamut was always meant to be from the Crystal Dominion. And part of Dion's story arc was realizing he was adopted and used to invade his real home.

>>3964817
Which would mean Dion's mother would be equivalent to a Targaryen. (Notable for their white hair)

And the one character we know was native to Twinside is Vivian (who has white hair)

Which was great, until the DLC came out with the Mysidians and kind of spoiled it with another race of white haired people connected to Leviathan.

>>3964824
Although Dion's psychotic break still (kind of) aligns with Final Fantasy's other white haired characters.

It's just dumb that the whole sequence with Annabella telling him about his real mother had nothing to do with anything.

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>>3964824
If I recall correctly, the people in mysidia aren't the original inhabitants.
Sorry, I've only played through the Tide DLC once. According to the wiki and reddit discussion, the Motes of Water came from Southern Ash, and moved after Drake's Horn fell?

In GoT the House of Targaryen weren't originally from Westeros either. They were from Valyria. The Targaryen's moved to Dragonstone because they foresaw the "Doom" of Valyria. We don't really know what that is. Maybe it was a natural disaster, like a volcano, or maybe something more man-made or "mage"-made.

I don't think we know what happened to the Drake's Horn mother crystal. I'd ask if a volcanic eruption could kill a mothercrystal - if Drake's Breath wasn't literally inside a volcano.
But it would make sense if the continent of Ash was named after volcanic activity.

>>3964942
This is the sort of idea I'd like explored if the game was more of an RPG and was actually capable of being part of a series. 13 and it's sequels were cringe but I don't think many people minded shit like 12's sequel or 7's many sequels and prequels