>>3965618
To some degree I can agree but I also found EXP to have potential to be played around with.
Fire Emblem games for example, forces you to decide which unit should be fed EXP. And absolutely not let Jagens take those away from you.

>>3965619
I'll admit that's a rare example of a game that does it right since it's technically a limited resource due to battles being do-or-die.

>>3965618
>Games should reward exploration, completion, and engaging with the mechanics, not grinding.
This is a significant part of what allows Zelda to be better than the entire RPG genre. It's a better realization of what RPGs ought to be doing that doesn't make the same mistakes.

>>3965618
>Games should reward exploration, completion, and engaging with the mechanics
Perhaps rewarded with some sort of… experience… points?

>>3965632
Equipment, abilities, party members, classes, items, literally anything beyond "This number makes these numbers go up". Take some notes from SaGa for example.

>>3965653
>abilities
>classes
What if there were some sort of arbitrary quantifiable unit to track progression towards these things?

>>3965618
Fighting enemies IS "engaging with the mechanics" you stupid nigger
Stop giving XP for combat and you just incentivize speedrun bullshit to skip encounters, aka not engaging with the mechanics

>>3965618
Mate, you haven't had to grind the SNES. Mind you "no grinding" doesn't mean "I can skip all combat except bosses".

if i remember correctly, Pillars of Eternity only gives exp for quests, filling in the map, and bestiary entries, so you can't grind respawning enemies for levels
and being a faux-d&d crpg, leveling gave you options to expand and refine your build rather than just being a direct power increase

>>3965657
Quests to find teachers, unlocking through story progression, skills being tied to weapons and equipment?

>>3965618
That's not a bad idea. I agree with you.

>>3965632
>>3965709
>"This number makes these numbers go up"
That's literally how video games work on a fundamental level, retard. What do you think happens in this hypothetical game where you get new shit by finishing quests or talking to the right NPCs? Under the hood it's all making a number go up, or giving you more ways to make enemy numbers go down. Any "innovation" you come up with is just going to accomplish the exact same thing as experience points but with extra steps
>b-but GRINDING!
You know you don't HAVE to have infinite random encounters or respawning enemies, right? The player is only going to be able to get as much XP as you let them, if you don't want your players grinding you can just literally make it impossible to do.

There's a reason why Chrono Cross is the only game to use its progression system. Reinventing the wheel just tends to leave you with a cart that can't go anywhere.

>>3965653
>Equipment, abilities, party members, classes, items
Depends on how you do it but those seem to be sidegrades (don't have to be to be fair), where lvl up is an upgrade.
Sidegrade is not always useful, upgrade is.
It may seem like the point but you swap "damage and hp inflation" to "Another 'reward' that I won't use".
Elden Ring has both. When I level up it's nice, when I find some incantation not for me it's like spitting in my face (incantation that is useful does feel good of course)

If you want to make those upgrades and you give me stronger and stronger equipment and abilities, the power curve would be out of control, unless there is only 1 way to play, I guess than it would make sense.

Only game that comes to my mind and has done upgrades without levels is Sekiro.

File: etna_(disgaea)_by_blazpu_4788bff68db7251b03d76f58117c0db6.jpg (649.1 KB)

>>3965618
whatever you say faggot keep away from my series then if you're this retarded

>>3965619
There's nothing wrong with giving Jagens some exp.

Maybe you could just play different genres of games from time to time instead?

>>3966098
>There's nothing wrong with giving Jagens some exp.
Yeah let's give Marcus all the EXP. Great advice.

>>3965619
>>3966098
>>3966170
>some
>all
overfeeding your jeigan is a noob trap
completely benching your jeigan in the earlygame is also a noob trap
anyone who's competent at playing Hector Hard Mode will tell you (correctly) that Marcus is one of the most important units in the game

>>3965659
>Stop giving XP for combat and you just incentivize speedrun bullshit to skip encounters, aka not engaging with the mechanics
>clever ways of handling an obstacle shouldn't be rewarded so I can grind like an MMORPG
Spergtastic argument.

>>3966061
>Disgaea
You are brown.

>>3965618
What is it with these "X is an outdated concept" mentioning core elements of the RPG genre? If you don't like RPGs just play a different type of game. Leave RPGs alone for those of us who enjoy these games.

>>3966490
>Leave RPGs alone for those of us who enjoy these games.
I absolutely refuse to. RPGs have trashed the quality of gameplay of most turn based games so that they cater to tards. This needs to be fixed.

>>3966490
We can't just have threads. Every thread must be lousy rage bait.

>>3966210
I just need him there to act as a barrier/funnel to get enemies to attack the units I actually plan to use.

>>3966682
If you genuinely want to change opinions, consider starting an OP with reasoning behind claims, rather than simply making inflammatory statements.
>EXP is an outdated and obsolete mechanic.
Why?
>Games should reward exploration, completion, and engaging with the mechanics, not grinding.
Why?
Etc.

>>3966490
You can love something while recognizing its faults.

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>>3966490
>>3965622
>>3965653
These fags just want to play Zelda, seeing numbers on the screen triggers them because they are low IQ. Rather than just accepting that they don't enjoy RPGs and moving on to games more their taste they stamp their feet and demand the entire genre change to accommodate them. Skyrim was designed for this exact audience btw.

>>3967045
>seeing numbers on the screen triggers them because they are low IQ.
>they stamp their feet and demand the entire genre change to accommodate them.
>Skyrim was designed for this exact audience
Have you ever modded Skyrim to put floating damage numbers on screen? It’s great, can’t go back again

Infinity engine games gave exp for everything including combat. Progression systems are fun.

>>3965653
Or just reaching story objectives?
When I played Witcher 3, the best reward I experienced was finding Ciri. I still choke up at that scene.

>>3967028
Yup

>>3967091
A story unfolding is definitely a factor that makes me finish a game.

>>3966490
OP is an idiot, but you don't NEED exp to have an RPG. I sincerely think every /vrpg/ user needs to read at least one non-DnD /tg/ rulebook in their life, because some people here genuinely can't conceive of RPGs that stray too far from what Gygax made in the 80s.

I think posts like OP's are born of people who are essentially reinventing the wheel and can't express it properly. Rather than thinking "What would it be like to not have X feature?" they immediately jump up "X Feature must be removed from all future RPGs". I swear I don't see this zero sum mindset in any other videogame genre.

>>3968295
>>3968295
>I swear I don't see this zero sum mindset in any
Managed to bait a reply out of you, didn't it

Welcome to 4chan

>>3968296
At least you admit the thread is bait which was clear to everyone.

>FF7 Rebirth
>open world
>should we do rare materia, armor and accesories as exploration rewards in optional dungeons and stuff?
>nope they are all chadley quest rewards and on the main path
WASTED

>>3968620
Chadley IS the challenging optional content, doofus. The Meridian Ocean materia can only be acquired by beating the game's superbosses and duo summon boss fights.

>>3965618
I like individual skill levels, like sword proficiency making the character more likely to land blows, and land them squarely or parry incoming attacks when they're using swords, or turn an incoming square blow into a glancing one, or redirecting it from a vital location (head/face/neck) to a non-critical one (shoulder/hip/forearm)

I don't like EXP giving character more hit points and damage. HP should basically static and set during character creation, damage should be a function of the character's strength the weapon they're wielding, and how square/glancing the blow was and how vital/noncritical the location they hit was.

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>>3966481
And then in games that have both, the optimal play is to first bypass the combat encounter, and then going back and fighting all the enemies anyway.

>>3965618
If the RPG has some open world or sandbox-y elements: leveling by doing is the best for me. I just enjoy using a skill and seeing my progress as I use it more and more. It also allows for some breaks in your playthrough: for example in Morrowind I always enjoy the moment where I got a good foothold and can start working on skills like Alchemy. Having to go buy the necessary equipment, going around traders for ingredients, exploring the map while being focused on picking up plants instead of just going from point A to point B...
If the RPG is somewhat linear, the next best thing in my opinion is the Underrail Oddity system. It removes any issues of "missing" XP from different playstyles (Human Revolution had this problem with stealth and non-lethal giving way more XP) and you can also easily reward exploration. I don't know if any other game has implement such a system but if yes I am curious.

After experiencing those two systems it's always a bit of a letdown going back to the old get XP from beating up people or completing quests -> level up a completely unrelated skill

>>3965618
Any other reddit-takes Mister r/Imafuckingfaggotpleasefuckmyface ?

>>3965632
what about a picture of a lady with her clothes off instead?

>>3965618
>gain exp and level up because you talked to people a lot and read some books
>now you can wear the heaviest armor and onehand a greatsword
no

>>3965618
>EXP is an outdated and obsolete mechanic
No its not. It wouldn't be used otherwise. I do want some variety.

Why are people always trying to reinvent the wheel. Some motherfuckers always trying to skate uphill.

>>3970955
Because I demand bigger and better hero simulators. I will never be satisfied with inferior hero simulations.

>>3965618
SaGa and similar games have been a thing for decades, you know that right?

>>3966490
I imagine this thread was made because there's been similar discussions on /tg/. For a long time now RPGs have tracked character progression by kills, but the original rules of DnD had the amount of gold you earn as EXP. It was considered a weird rule until recently, when people tried it and realized it actually allows for significant flexibility and creative strategies. Like you can have your party spec into stealth, or you can bait enemies into attacking each other and not worry about EXP loss. Naturally, people are reconsidering and experimenting with EXP as a concept, and it was only a matter of time until it leaked to vidya RPGs.

>>3965618
It's another retarded relic of D&D, along with levelling, classes, hit points, dungeon crawling etc.

Statistics-based character progression is THE pillar of the genre. It's the one thing that ties all flavors of RPG together.

EXP is good actually and its not the games fault youre too retarded to stop yourself from grinding. Just play the fucking game like you say you want to.

>>3965618
any game developer that says this then goes on to make a shittier system than a standard exp game, every single time.

the only one i ever liked were the gameboy saga games

>>3965618
I've been working on a game without EXP and after a while I had to cave and use them anyway.

The main thing is that EXP are very flexible. Systems like exploration rewards or resource based power can work, but they require you to adapt the game towards them while experience points don't. Simple example: alchemy themed game where you gain stats from materials. Works fine with one player character, but if you're party based you now have to deal with players funneling all resources to one character.

EXP is an abstraction that every player understands, a very granular reward for any activity and an idiot-proof way to make players stronger.
In any exploration based progression the delta between good and bad players is much larger and thus you'll have more difficulty tuning the difficulty. And a player might end up frustrated because they missed a key ability in the starting area. In contrast, with EXP you can ensure that players will eventually catch up to your content.

Of course you can use EXP simply as the backbone for your other systems. Dragon's Dogma 2 for example has you unlock some classes through a quest and others through meeting teachers, and then later on your ultimate abilities through class quests. But a more common example is equipment: add some horizontal progression to items instead of just bigger number to make the items really interesting, then make some special pieces for quests. That should give you the feeling of meaningful exploration while still letting the dev have the detailed control of player power from EXP.

>>3965622
I agree, Zelda relies on mechanically intuitive and enjoyable systems wheras the vast majority of RPG exploit basic arithmetic to make you enjoy them.

>>3970662
this is a pretty fair take

>>3965618
RPGs without XP aren't new. Betrayal at Krondor didn't have XP or levelling, and it came out in 1993.

>>3965618
No, games should reward grinding.

>>3965618
IF Level is greater than or equal to the enemy level by 3, THEN EXP equals 0

Wow, so hard.

>>3981140
>equal to the enemy level by 3

>>3965653
If you go that way you'll end up with a puzzle game fast.

>>3965705
Poe is killed by the wall of text and nonsensical story and premise in 2.

>>3982063
>If you go that way you'll end up with a puzzle game fast.
Or strategy

>>3978149
>similar games
Like what

There's already games that don't use EXP. for progression, thing is they're harder to design and most people out there don't have any reason to bother especially since the audience itself doesn't want games that don't use EXP.

>>3982078
>they're harder to design
Nah, Zelda has been doing it for years, it uses hearts and sword upgrades for progress works fine and is arguably easier to design around then giving every monster in the entire game its own exp value and making sure the player doesnt get too little or too much.

>>3982080
Zelda is not an RPG in any way or shape

>>3982072
Disagree. It'll boil down to rock paper scissors. Feel free to show me a counter example. I made more than 50 systems, I'm pretty sure I correct.

>>3982082
What else, action adventure?

>>3982092
Explain what you mean by "rock paper scissors"

>>3982099
Attack/unit A < A/U B < A/U C < A/U A
Think fire beats ice beats water beats fire

>>3982101
And if we add more objects to "rock paper scissors"

>>3982103
One way to soften it up or to add spice, essentially
>It'll boil down to rock paper scissors
This is by no means a bad thing. The question is what do you want? If you add more options, some flavour and maybe trap choices (actually a nogo imo), you can have a system that has been tried hundreds of times. It's serviceable, but not groundbreaking.

>>3982092
>what the fuck did you just say to me, you little bitch? I’m a /vrpg/ anon with over 50 confirmed systems

>>3982129
>>3982101
>>3982092
Is this the same anon?

>>3982130
>>3982133
Wth

File: 1777009915245667.png (612.0 KB)

>spend 10 minutes in combat struggling to defeat the enemy with various clever combinations of tactics, buffs and luck.

>or click the [persuade] let's not fight dialogue choice

>the EXP award should be equivalent for these two things

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>>3982199
>Spend 10 minutes persuading people through dialogue choices
>Level Up!
>Put points in Strength and learn Cleave (Combat)

>>3982199
Ideally the [persuade] option would be its own game with its own rules thats as fun to interact with as the [fight]. Its a failure of game design that they're not equally satisfying.

I like xp

>>3965618
>an outdated and obsolete mechanic
explain why
is chess outdated and obsolete?
I think you don't actually understand what games are and look at them as nothing but virtual reality experiences where the point of the mechanics is to simulate real life
now, the history of games is definitely intertwined with war simulation, so your confusion isn't unfounded. it's just very reductive to limit games to that and consider them as failures because technology has evolved and you can now simulate with less gamey abstractions

>>3982199
Not necessarily, but should open other parts of the game. Somehow we still follow 70s design principles of right and wrong choices. See bg3. It wants to be sandbox and open, but a single decision can lock you out of hours of gameplay. One door closes, the other opens.

>>3982233
Do you like money and tits, too?

Weapon skill levelling up based on use is a very cool thing, that's what I think

>>3965619
I actually hate Fire Emblem's EXP system because it encourages sub-optimal or cheesy gameplay in order to feed exp to a unit. I'd rather the game just award one level for everyone who participated in a battle and just lower jagen stat growth so they naturally fall off.

>>3966170
>Bro just don't use your good units! The game doesn't want you to use your good units!
Why are FE players so stupid?

>>3982253
I like food and ass

>>3965618
EXP is just there for the people who can't git gud at actual combat strategy, party composition, and exploration. If you're good at those other things, you'll find equipment and abilities that will allow you to overcome enemies stronger than your level would normally allow. If not, you'll whine like a bitch and grind until you can one-shot everything.

The only people who complain about EXP are the shitters who need it.

>>3984985
>If you're good at those other things, you'll find equipment and abilities that will allow you to overcome enemies stronger than your level would normally allow.
The problem is that there is no convention for this though. If every RPG 'agreed' that 0 EXP/no leveling was possible and acted as an intended hard difficulty for challenge completionists, then this would be fine. But there's no standard for this and so at best you have "well, just don't level TOO MUCH", but nobody agrees on which 'too much' is or how powerful you should be at a given point of a game to be challenging. It's a dumb excuse that lets you go "ha, you were just to overleveled to be challenged" whenever someone beats something without any gigga IQ strategy.

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>>3965972
And I loved it.
Such a shame most gamers have no imagination, we can't have good things while most people are still type 5.
They need to see the number go up.

>>3982082
>Roleplay as Zelda
What now faggot?

>>3982204
This, how can these retards not understand the problem?

>>3982199
>>3982204
>>3986952
You tardos should just play a genre you actually like instead of being autistic fucks that want to ruin stuff for other people desu.

Dumb thread premise, didn't read anything, but learn by doing systems (most notably colony ship) have resulted in my belief shifting towards:
>EXP as a form of progression is meaningless

And instead, that a character's experiences in the game, post-adolescence(post character creation in most cases), should redefine their relationship with said world without directly increasing player power. A character shouldn't generally gain something without losing something else. You can still have vertical power progression via equipment, economy, reputation, etc.

>>3987025
>NOOOOOOOOOOO DON'T POINT OUT RETARDED GAME DESIGN
>YOU JUST DON'T LIKE THE GENRE
Thanks god most people aren't as retarded as you and things move forward, I bet you think gold as exp was good design too

>>3965618

A mechanic I thought of was medals or badges clear a scenario well and get a mid tier silver badge and mid tier stat boosts from it. Later on when you have more badges come back and get the gold version of the badge etc.

There is something comfortably mind numbing about grinding and just watching the numbers get bigger though.

There has to be some sort of permanent reward for killing an an enemy. Because sometimes it feels like a slog and gold an items are temporary and XP is permanent and feels like a decent consolation, even a small amount.

>>3987044
>no everything has to ''''evolve'''' into boring ass ARPG slop where all that matters is minor gear upgrades!!!
You're fucking stupid fyi

>>3987377
>Anything that doesn't use EXP is "boring ass ARPG slop"
Dumb motherfucker, people were already abandoning EXP as a mechanic in the fucking 70's in TTRPGs, stop posting

>>3987385
>some guys stopped doing a thing before video games even existed
>that means it should never ever be allowed to exist anymore in anything!
God, you're so stupid that it's painful. Why are the autistic like this?

>>3987387
Stop following with non-sequiturs to save your retarded ass, go back to twitter

>>3987385
>people were already abandoning EXP as a mechanic in the fucking 70's in TTRPGs

>>3965618
I think XP should all be doled out as an item you can expend as you please across your whole party, like funneling it all into one character or saving some for a new character you know is coming so that you can bring them up to parity immediately. They did this for archetype experience in Metaphor: Refantzio when you have a character who is capped out on their current archetype, so I just let everyone max out their own starting archetype and their respective direct upgrades, then used literally the rest of it to level all the MC's archetypes, not even knowing that there's a great item you get for unlocking all archetypes for him at the time I did it.

>>3987540
Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance's bonus experience system was delightful.

>>3965618
only gain xp whenever you explore

>>3965618
I love EXP as a resource not just as a mindless incentive to overpower the enemies

File: Marcus.jpg (23.4 KB)

>>3966098
I strip my Jagens of their weapons, FIRST TURN, and I send them into the corner of the map to get exactly 0 experience the whole game.

Once possible, I field them onto a map where they are able to get instantly killed by a boss, so as to not stink up my army with their presence and to have no potential to be fielded to garner ANY exp.

>>3967045
The numbers are not the problem, it's the EXP system making games impossible to balance as accurately as ones without it.

>>3970849
sold

>>3965619
Your Jagens can have a little EXP, as a treat.

>>3965618
Fuck off Sawyer.

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>>3965618
No, it just needs to be done in a more dynamic way.
One exp bar? No. THREE experience bars.
>combat xp
>social xp
>knowledge xp
Combat xp is only earned from fighting, and raises your combat level, unlocking all the combat skills.
Social xp is earned from quests, and from all the persuasion and intimidation skills used during it. Levelling it unlocks the ability to complete quests in peaceful ways and get more money.
Knowledge xp comes from exploring and reading books n scrolls. It unlocks abilities that help you find books n scrolls. Also slightly empowers magic.

>>3992685
>One exp bar? No. THREE experience bars.
No. Even more experience bars.

>>3992753
1000 billion million trillion maybe more

>>3966484
Etna is pure sex. Your post is invalid.

>>3992765
based

You dumbasses whining about EXP and LVL are in the wrong board. This stuff appeals directly to the (endless) progression & power fantasy. It's also why LitRPG is a huge success. The idea of becoming stronger through hard work and seeing your progress being visualized in numbers going up is highly addicting.

>>3965618
I played Witcher 3 unleveled and it felt like ass. Fuck off.

>>3992782
What possessed you to play a RPG without leveling up?

>>3992785
Geralt as an established veteran monster slayer shouldn't be leveling up like crazy from zero to hero.

It would be needlessly obtuse for any reasonably complex RPG to hide abilities behind specific quests. It's only desirable in more simple games, like Zelda or metroidvanias where abilities are tightly controlled.

Real talk: games with multiple party members should give the OPTION to smooth XP totals. If your party is level 50 and has a new level 1 member, all XP should automatically go to them.

>>3992781
What the fuck is LitRPG

>>3987042
>A character shouldn't generally gain something without losing something else.
Bizarre statement

>>3992782
>I played Witcher 3 unleveled and it felt like ass
Because
>>3993577
>Geralt as an established veteran monster slayer shouldn't be leveling up
I can't tell if this anon is joking or

Saga games and Mana Khemia have the best jrpg leveling system imo

>>3993669
That's the explanation given for W3EE's removal of levels. I didn't even play the original version. Geralt without amnesia "leveling up" feels artificial.

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>>3993697
>play RPG
>affronted at the existence of character progression

>>3993697
>W3EE
Apparently it's an overhaul mod made by amateur fans, in case you weren't aware.

>>3993577
Yeah, there shouldn't be any levelling in the Witcher. It should just play action-adventure style.
Geraldo would always be the same strength, and enemies always the same strength. But you would take on harder enemies.
Fighting monsters should just require you gathering the right potion ingredients and being prepared.

Not everything needs levels.

>>3993723
I disagree and cancel out your preference

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The problem with XP isn't grinding, but metagaming.

NPCs aren't aware of "XP" as such. It's a the most important resource for the player, but it's existence isn't acknowledged ingame. An evil MC has no reason to help out a struggling pregnant women from a village with her mundane troubles, but the player knows he will be handsomely rewarded with "XP", thus encouraging to break RP.

Also, the amount of XP received by completing Quests is utterly arbitrary. It usually hovers around 1/10 to 1/2 of the amount of XP required to level up for the level the developers expected the average player to have at that point and time. Meaning, a fetchquest in BG1 where you have to buy a book from a bookstore yields 100XP, but doing basically the exact same thing in the beginning of Throne of Bhaal yields 4000XP.

It's a terrible system. Increasing proficiency of skills by using them, or turning XP into a real resource like Souls from the Souls' series are far superior.

>>3993770
>but the player knows he will be handsomely rewarded with "XP", thus encouraging to break RP.
Good point.
But it also makes quests feel better. Old RPGs like Fallout and Baldur's Gate had garbage quests, but I got my dopamine hits from the XP participation reward.

>>3993728
You bastard.

Metroid predates Symphony of the Night which added XP to the formula to much acclaim.

>>3965618
How would you measure progress?

>>3993837
Quests.

>>3993846
So you just want to replace EXP bar with Quest bar/counter? What would even be the difference other than making it more confusing

>>3993837
Measure what progress?

>>3993852
>Measure what progress?
Zeno’s paradox.

>>3993852
skill/abilities/stats progress? or do you want the entire game to play the same

>>3993858
>>3993868
Which one of you asked the question?

>>3965618
That's a given but the average person doesn't like having to use their brain to succeed.

>>3993846
You know whst gives the most exp in games? Quests.