i love terran nerfs!
the worker change needed to happen years ago lol. sc2 esports will never come back

Mules, inject, and chronoboost should all be removed
Giving casters autoattacks was a mistake
I like the changes to starting workers and warpgate though.

>Arc slop increased to 180.
Wat?

>>2416469
I'm worried about how tje new meta will be. Someone who waits to reach 12 drones before expanding will die so fucking basly to a 8 pooler still. Will I have to start scouting as zerg now?

>>2416536
supposed to say Slope
as I understand it the value means that the mutalisk can fire in a 180 degree arc from it's forward facing position, which should make it more manoeuvrable
>>2416539
yes, you do not get to greed for free anymore

>>2416544
Cheese is bad for the game. It's fine to punish greed, but cheese is shit

>>2416555
Cheese is part of the genre. You have to decide whether you want to risk a greedy build, be safe, or be aggressive.
In a week there will be guides explaining how to defend against any new cheese and good players will handle it while you sit here and cry about it.

they still patch this game?

>>2416527
>Giving casters autoattacks was a mistake
Why? Do elaborate!

>>2416469
There's no way most of these changes will make it through because muh pro balance council won't agree to them

>>2416638
the balance council got fired like a year ago

My zerg build order with 8 workers:
>11 overlord
>12 pool
>14 hatch
>13 6 lings
>14 extractor
>16 queen

But I've already found that terran gets a reaper faster than I get 6 lings across on a 12 pool. So this build might be cooked. I guess I'll try out a 14 pool instead...but waiting for the ovie to pop is rough. Fucking shit, the lack of any guides is cooking me

>Economy
>Starting workers reduced from 12 to 8.
nice try but the correct amount is 9

t. has been saying this for over a fucking decade

>>2416555
aggressive builds are when sc2 is at its best, 200 pop mineouts are complete fucking garbage

wardii is whining like a bitch so you know it's a good idea, or possibly a just weekday

11 overlord
12 hatch
14 pool
16 gas(?)

Getting gas delays queen though...

>>2416851
who cares what you say

>>2416911
people who want to avoid big fucking i told you so's

this much change seems like it needs to be combined with different maps, you can't just slap this on modern maps for the last 10 years

>>2416969
They need to bring back 3/4 player maps as well
Fuck the "pros" crying about how it's so le heckin hard to scout more than one base :'(

>>2416976
there actually have a 3 player map this year
https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Mothership_LE

>>2416636
F1 brain atrophy compared to cerebral BW unit groups

>>2417017
F2

Can't for the life of me figure out the ideal extractor timing for Zerg. By the time my spawning pool finishes, if I pull drones to gather gas, hell, to even make the extractor itself, I won't be able to get two queens. I can barely squeeze out one queen. Let alone the lings. So I think extractor comes AFTER queens AND are started, which makes reapers a bit more deadly, but I'm sure terrans can't rush mass reapers anymore either. Have yet to see a reaper proxy yet

>>2417017
>rallies ANOTHER devourer through the tank line

*defiler

>>2417057
devourers fly...

they should put all the stupid shit back in the game at the same time while doing this big of a changeup
>medicavs picking up sieged siege tanks
>mothership core with all its abilities
>infestors with infested terran

>>2416469
I have been enlightened by reading Zero-k balance process and my first thoughts are: what is actually a balance change and what is actually a redesign change?
Ghost: It seems they have no idea what they actually want this unit to be. A pure spellcaster, a spellcaster with some auto-attack, a glass canon with strong auto-attacks and spells, or an upgraded marines for lategame? The new proposal is all at once so they nerf it with a +50% pop cost and only slightly nerf his previous ridiculous tankyness.

Warpgate: After years, it is suddenly an unbrearable problem that must be redesigned (not rebalanced) after just one patch of Protoss forcing Terran to adapt (they are still massively favored in late game)? Why? It would be like redesigning Zerg instant-remax after 16 years.

>>2417017
>have one (1) defiler
>control the shit out of it
>stop the entire 200/200 terran army
vs
>have 8 infestors
>try to control the shit out of them
>they all die 0,00001s into the 5 second fight
SC2chuds need all the help

>>2417135
the ghost is simply too powerful against Z and P and should be nerfed or reworked.

Literally no one is talking about the patch itself and instead just circlejerking Broodwars for some reason

i think everyone should start with no workers and just 50 minerals

>>2416976
>>2416969
I think there's lot left to explore on the map side of things, especially for viewer enjoyment. The trouble is that pros categorically prefer consistency and thus they veto the most interesting maps. 4 players maps are hated by the pros for the same reason, the fact that you could play perfectly and yet scout wrong twice gives too much ground to the guy who blindly all ins against nominally stronger opponents. Disregarding the whole worker start thing, one thing I would have liked to see is just lot wilder maps since if everyone is going to go fast expand anyways may as well mix it up. Low ground main high ground natural, double back expands but no easy 4th base, close by mains where both sides expand away from the opponent, rush paths that start open but then close up when rocks time out, additional entrances to the main with rocks, 4 player maps that aren't squares (and non square maps in general) so the rush distance could be really short or really long, those wings of liberty close air rush long ground rush maps etc.

However I do not think maps and major balance should be mixed up. I think the gateway change in particular is too much to mix with the economy changes since the economy changes will inevitably tear up all builds and balance which may hide any issues with the gateways for instance. If you throw in bunch of experimental maps you can't really pinpoint the issue like is the 8 pool too good or do the maps just favor it type of thing. I think in principle the 8 worker change is great and will definitely liven up the early game a lot, prefer that over the wild maps desu but I had kinda resigned myself into the idea that blizzard will never do major shakeups anymore and thus everything had to be shaken up trough the maps specifically.

>>2417161
one peon no townhall start or bust

>been enjoying the campaign and coop of sc2 again recently
>see this balance change
>feel like trying pvp again
>queue up 1 match
>most miserable experience ever
>go back to the actually fun game modes instead
sc2 ladder is mostly just an autism apm check instead of actual strategy, it's a real shame because all the other modes are amazing in comparison, no shit the game (and the rts genre in general) died because companies only gave a shit about esports dogshit that the vast majority of players don't actually want to play even if they enjoy watching it

>>2417267
>APM autismo
Ignore all the 60APM to master challenges kekaroo

>>2417139
they are literally nerfing it

>>2417329
My entire point is that most of sc2 ladder is having adhd and autism for the build orders and macro and having the gamesense to not get cheesed. Anything beyond that is just apm.

Practicing build orders so much they became automatic and rewiring your brain to have a fucking unit production queue timer constantly tickling your balls isn't fucking strategy.

File: 1754116655018497.png (221.1 KB)

is it a good time to jump into SC2? i want to learn an RTS but i can't decide between this and AoE2

>>2417398
Yes

>>2417398
If this patch actually gets released then yeah

>>2417398
I've been playing the new patch in the PTR and everyone is in full panic mode and build orders are all over the place. Had some cuck toss build pillons in my main for a warp gate rush zealot all in. Would have worked too if I hadn't sneaked a secret hatchery in his main and counter rushed him. But now I have to worry between if its a cannon rush (pull half of workers) or just a pillon for warp ins (ignore till lings are out) so fuck my life

>ghosts take up 3 supply
how much do they eat goddamn

>>2417465
They just don't want you to run full ghost armies late game which I think is fair.

Starting to get the hang of the early game.

>>2416895
why not just 15 hatch?

>>2416469
>huge patch
>x reduced to x-1
>y increase to y+1

>>2417512
>reworking the core mechanic of one of the three races and changing how the entire economy works isn't huge

>GSL season 1 ended on may 17
>GSL season 2 started on may 20
why are they back to back

>>2417345
Nerfed when 200 pop.
Massively buffed before 200 pop.

Nailed down my own personal opening finally, this seems to match perfectly and feels good

>11 overlord
>13 hatch
>14 pool
>18 overlord
>18 two queens and 4 lings
>18 extractor

And then just drone on from there. Now to figure out the new roach warren timing and upgrade timings. Lair timings... all I can say though is that it seems protoss is scouting way more often and leading to more blocked hatcheries. You can avoid this by doing a 12 hatch but it's a bit weaker and the timing doesn't match the pool finishing anymore. Adepts are extremely powerful right now since they finish quicker, at least I've been getting wrecked by adepts a lot.

>>2417519
low funding

>>2417345
snipe and EMP are way too powerful

File: 1768886148907132.jpg (83.9 KB)

>>2417182
based

>>2417357
i think you're old enough for us to tell you the truth - rts games are not strategy games. they are action games.

>>2417575
how would you change snipe and emp?

Inject larva/chronoboost are super stupid mechanics and aren't removed because Starcrap is badly designed from the ground up and eliminating these chores would expose that this game is actually very shallow and it's just about bloating your attention to disguise this fact
SC2 is about openings, cheese and spam all ins

>Picture this
>Zerg have suicide units that are costly as fuck
>And when you build them, they can only attack once and at melee range
>So you lose money when they don't hit a target AND when they do because they don't always kill

>And they only hit grounded units
>And do friendly fire
>And the only way to produce them is a two step process where you build then sacrifice your defining unit to it
>And you have to inject larvas like a spastic for awhile to get enough of them
>And they require zergling instead of larva
>And you need to land at least two of them to kill a single worker

>>2417642
sounds absolutely busted, like they will define fundamental combat interactions for the entire history of the game

Serral PTR build order against Byun (Terran)

>12 overlord
>12 extractor trick
>15 hatch
>17 pool
>17 extractor
>18 overlord
>18 double queen and skip lings
>30 ling speed (2:55)
>30 third hatch (3:00)
>29 overlord
>32 overlord
>lair (4:45)
>fourth hatch (5:20)
>spores (5:25)
>bane nest/roach warren (5:30)
>double evo (5:45)

Of course ling accordingly to agression. I know for a fact a glaves adept all in can happen by 5:30 so if against toss you might want roaches or banes a bit earlier

>>2417598
Nexon will save starcraft with their new game

>>2417670
Koreans can't save shit.

>>2417583
Then get the fuck out of /vst/.

>>2417676
>including both turn-based and real-time strategy, turn-based and real-time tactics, single-player and multi-player (including MOBAs)
action game board, dwi

>>2417645
It is, the ability to turn extra resources into extra power even beyond the supply cap is fantastic. The fact that they can cost effectively annihilate all of the basic units of all races is just extra on top. Banes would still be good if they were for Terran or Protos but they are extra good for Zerg specifically because they are the quickest to remax meaning you are incentivized to suicide your entire army and if yours kills the opponents you come out massively on top when you remax in 30 seconds

I really like the warpgate change at least conceptually not sure if the balance is right. Before you got like 1-3 units out of your gateways unless you were cheesing but now you can use them pretty legitimately until mid game with some real strategic choice on when to if ever you change them over to warpgates. You definitely want warpgates eventually but with the resource cost and the fact that you can make units faster from gateways makes it an interesting tradeoff on when you go for the warps.

>>2417345
>they are literally nerfing it
>literally nerfing
-Attack range increased from 6 to 7
-Snipe no longer cancels upon taking damage

The most asinine thing about them made even worse.
Lock on expensive gas units? -10k in units lost. Good bye. GGWP.

>>2419172
The damage increase on non-light units is just as big, ghosts destroy banelings now.

>>2417683
>The fact that they can cost effectively annihilate all of the basic units of all races
*if they are conveniently lumped together, alone without other units around and your opponent is watching some video on a second screen instead of playing

Not to be dramatic, but I'm retiring from playing Sc2 and instead I'll just occasionally watch Serral play instead.

All the builds and strats I grinded over the years - pissed away.
Total casual death... I hate this patch with passion.

>>2419369
quitting because your one trick got nerfed is the epitome of being a casual bitch THOUGH

File: artosis xd.png (120.2 KB)

SC2 has always been a hot topic for me because i genuinely know it is a badly designed game and stopped playing a long time ago

I'm curious about it though because I had fun with it -sometimes- but mules and injecting larva and a bunch of obfuscating shit is just there to prevent people from realizing they're not fighting the other player but the game itself, because the interface and orders are awful. But i want to try this patch to see if there's something i like now.

I wish they just removed inject larva and mules and chronoboost and stopped pretending the game is nothing more than spam and deathballs. C&C games are that but they embrace it. There's still some fun to be had with simple games. Maybe they can add some actual depth instead of pretending to be deep.

>>2416469
>Steady Targeting:
>No longer cancels upon taking damage.

Pure insanity. I can't even imagine the mental state of someone proposing this. This madness, plus the +10 attack, likely means that a Ghost can attack a Broodlord straightforwardly and win.

>>2419719
With the supply increase that's a fight you should win as zerg so long as you commit with an infestor or something into the fight. Though if you dance around then you will lose.

>>2419725
Do you... Even play this game?

>>2419725
>4 pop broodlord + 2 pop infestor should win against 3 pop ghost

Thank for the insight, terran apologist.

>>2419737
You need 2 snipes to kill a broodlord but with 3 supply ghosts zerg can come to the fight with a broodlord and a roach or 4 lings or something for every 2 ghosts you bring. I believe if the Zerg comes in with 10 broodlords an infestor and 9 roaches and just A moves into 20 ghosts that snipe all of the broods the fungal, the roach damage and the boordlord/broodlings damage will leave the zerg standing in that engagement. Same should still work out if you come in with a flank of 40 zerglings or some banelings etc. That's ignoring the fact that the ghost player has to do something that's arguably more difficult in that scenario which is accurately layer the snipes on the broods while the zerg just really has to A move + land a fungal on the ghosts that are sitting still channeling their own spell.

>>2419741
You need 2 ghosts to snipe the broodlords so it's broodlord and 2 supply of support units vs 2 ghosts.

>>2419745
What a weird way to reaffirm that you don't play this game.

>>2419747
I just don't think the matchup is as one sided as you paint it to be, Ghost is supposed to counter the broodlord and with good play that should remain the case even with the supply advantage but it's not some kind of brainless silver bullet. In a real engagement you can't just stand there sniping broods when the zerg has much larger conventional army and is rolling in with banelings that just demolish ghosts requiring one less hit now than pre patch too.

>>2419745
Broodlords are more expensive than ghosts, take far longer to make than ghosts, require way more tech than ghosts, and are more vulnerable than ghosts. The ghost is meant to be a counter to broodlords, and the infestor was a counter to ghosts. But no longer.

broodlords use their children to fight for them and can't actually do anything themselves, ghosts are cool and therefore they should be better

8 pool destroys zerg

8-9-10 pool gets obliterated by terran (both depos already up and reaper 5 seconds away from being done)

Haven't tested it against toss because toss always early scouts and it pisses me the fuck off

>>2420558
You have to scout early otherwise you die to the 8 pool. I don't think it's all that difficult to defend though if you do scout and the map isn't super small.

>>2420679
Zerg should never scout, they are the punching bag anyway. Toss should always scout and Terran only scouts if they wish to greed a CC first

>>2420702
I meant that toss has to scout the zerg otherwise they die to the 8 pool so they never die to the 8 pool because they always scout it

I'm getting my ass eaten EVERY SINGLE TIME I try to transition into mutas, holy fuck. At least two base muta seems to be just dead in the water.

Why does Blizzard have such a hardon for fucking over Zerg in SC2? Is it because it was the best race in WoL? This race is absolutely no fun in LotV where you’re just a punching bag for 5-6 minutes trying to lose as few drones as possible so you can then start finally playing the game

>>2417109
Zero-k's approach to balance is an outlier. In most companies, balance team is explicitly a customer satisfaction role. Your primary job is to collect data in user complaints and address them. It doesn't matter if a unit has an overwhelming pick/win rate if nobody complains about it. It doesn't matter if a unit is technically fine, if people complain you have to do something.
Companies like Blizzard regard balance as a money sink with very low value. Being on the balance team isn't a prestigious position, it's punishment and usually means you're on your last chance before becoming a layoff. Most people on these teams are either desperately trying to generate positive impact metrics they can use to save their careers and escape balance hell, or they're already checked out and spend most of their chair time looking for a new job.

Once you understand that, both the explicit role these people occupy and the underlying psychology of it, you will understand what water-treading, can-kicking balance patches like this come from. There's no longer a competitive authority hovering overhead to say "hey don't need this faction again they're already weak" so balance changes are guided entirely by complaint and matchmaking zeitgeist with no greater vision or design conscious.

>>2421258
ongoing retribution from broodfestor days. zerg is overpowered at the highest levels of play but shit everywhere else, but every race is in a wierd position where a seemingly simple change leads to msssive balance problems, i.e. reactor cyclones, infested marines doing spell damage, og shield battery overcharge.

>>2421477
>zerg is overpowered at the highest levels of play
Lets not make these dumb, baseless statements.

>>2421786
It's a strictly true statement but paints the wrong picture when really it's just Serral being the best. One of those what if Serral played Terran instead thing you know.

>>2421795
I don't know how Serral would play Terran, but if he were playing Protoss, I would expect him to constantly cast Revelations and do hit-and-run attrition with Tempests; something no Protoss tries to do. Almost makes you wonder what is the use of those 400 APM pros have.

>>2421824
One of the funniest things I see when I watch pros play is the classic "spend lots of effort microing army while it's doing nothing, then looking away to hit that macro right as something interesting is about to have". Type examples of this are doing a hallucination scout or sending in the oracles or microing air units in general. Like you know you are running those banshees into the enemy base, is THIS really the right moment to queue up more marines? I think Serral is phenomenal in the way he gets more out of his clicks than most others.

>>2421795
>It's a strictly true statement
No it's not. It lacks any rigor.
What people often mean by this is that Zerg wins a lot of tournaments. And that statement in turn denies the context of what actually happened in those games OR ignores the fact that' professional pool consists of barely ~30 players.
It's a strictly whimsical statement.

Starting to piss me off that I can't find any build orders just because it's a PTR. How the fuck do I do a roach timing attack with 8 worker start? When do I get evo chambers and start upgrades? Lair timing?

Not even one Reddit thread at the very least to theorize build orders together. It was fun being blind at first but now I just feel inefficient

>>2422087
It's PTR some of those things will change, no one will bother making up build orders when they are just experimenting with them. You shouldn't be laddering on PTR unless you can come up with build orders yourself anyways.

>>2422087
I was doing Serral's build that anon posted earlier in this thread and it seems to be working nicely

>>2422090
I'm the one who posted that. I didn't use it because that turned out to be Serral's first time playing the PTR. He did say the extractor trick isn't worth it and 11 overlord is probably better since youre not floating larva anyway. But I guess I can try just following that build

>>2422087
SC2 sucks so much because it's all about timings instead of tactics, because fighting doesn't matter but the bare minimum
Its all etas and cheese

>>2422168
Cheese is literally the definition of tactics. Nobody chooses the fair fight if they can set conditions for an unfair fight instead.

Combat sucks ass in these games anyways. Nobody, not even the pros, are carefully microing 200 supply armies, they just box select, A-move, stutter step and occasionally cycle through their hotkeyed casters for a battle-turning nuke spell that's worth more individually than the entire rest of the 200 supply army. When RTS try to force you to engage with their blob army gameplay they just drive their players away and fail, starcraft stuck around because their incompetence let cheese, and thus the competitive community thrive. Now all they do is keep the cheeses rotating so one doesn't get too stinky before it's replaced.

>>2422213
>Cheese is literally the definition of tactics. Nobody chooses the fair fight if they can set conditions for an unfair fight instead.
This is downstream of the merchant caste conquering the noble and priest castes.

>>2422213
Cheese is almost always a strategy actually.

>>2422213
Explain the strategy of shield battery void rays or mass reapers in earlier patches? Just abusing extremely broken mechanics isn't strategy. Cheese =/= strategy

>>2416469
There is no reason for the game to be updated. Game was finished in 2010. Every fucking update in this game's history provides the illusion of change and is unnecessary.

File: Protoss OP.png (39.4 KB)

>Protoss OP, say the Terrans

>>2422590
>Zergs rub hands in the corner

Make overlords slightly faster again, revert ghost damage buff, give vipers a phantom auto attack like disruptors, buff spore damage against all types rather than just biological, and send the patch live

>>2422222
merchants never rule m8

>>2422681
Spore isn't supposed to counter terran or protoss mass air, you are suppose to scout those. Zerg air has to be countered more strongly by the spore because Zerg can instantly shit out 30 mutas in a tech switch.

>>2422685
If the oponent zerg has managed to save up 3000/3000 resources without you killing them, that'd be quite impressive on you. Mutas already get raped by spores without the buff. And they are insanely expensive (imo mutas should be 100/75 for how weak they are). Spores ass raping oracles would stop one of the most cancerous metas in SC2 rn which is to rush oracle in every PvZ matchup

>>2422213
>When RTS try to force you to engage with their blob army gameplay they just drive their players away and fail,
Play good RTS games please (not just Starcrap)

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