>>108245412
Forever? The shits degrade 1% output a year.

can they really be recycled tho, do they just crush the semiconductors or something? it feels like they would end up at a landfill as it would be cheaper to just produce new ones

>>108245412
They look like shit, I'd rather come up with a whole new form of energy than put these things anywhere near my home

>>108245412
i have

They didn't produce anything in the past two months.
Luckily today i got a bit.
Nobody tells you just how dead winter is, even if you clean the panels from snow. They all lie to you.

>>108245412
heh

>>108245412
but I live off-grid on solar.
>>108245528
winter sucks. I have a generator for winter when it's 4 months of little sun.

>>108245489
>he doesn't ground mount away from the house
seethe landlet

>>108245412
Waiting for batteries to be as cheap as panels
ie this year or next year

>>108245412
>produces decent electricity at most 6 hours out of the day
>have to mount 4x the panels and store 24hrs of battery to live the energy equivalent of paycheck to paycheck
>chad pine tree grows a couple feet and reduces your yield by half due to shade
vs
>throw water wheel on a washing machine motor
>chuck in your backyard creek
>1kw of power 24/7
>God rewards your efforts with rain and free extra power

>>108246013
1kW what kinda himmalaya mountainstream are you harvesting

>>108246125
Sloped land is cheaper but also better for generating electricity. If you have a stream running down the slope you build a 2m tubed waterfall and put the motor at the bottom.
Over 500w is easy. 1kw might be pushing it, two motors can get 1.5kw

>>108246206
you’re brain is sloped

>>108245412
Huh? No solar panel has ever been recycled

>>108246264
Intentionally. One day I hope to use it for generating hydroelectric power.

is the conversion efficiency still hard-locked to ~30%?

>>108245431
That's optimistic.
>>108245447
It's bullshit.

>>108246375
Yeah, but panels are stupendously cheap nowadays, to the point the mounting brackets are more expensive
the only downside is the space they take
storage is solved with lifepo4, too. you can get 100 kwh of decent chinesium like ruixu for like $10k, and they’re qualified for us insurance. 10kW inverters are sub $2k. if you have an electric car you’ll recoup the cost in like 4 years

>>108245447
>can they really be recycled tho
In theory, yes. In practice, no. The amount of effort required to fully recycle a solar panel makes recycling them inefficient. The consumer has no reason to bother with that route because buying a new panel is always the cheaper and easier option. Even on an industrial scale, the recycling process costs more than the value of the raw materials recovered.

>>108245412
I live in a third world country where my roof has holes and probably won't support solar panels

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>>108247485
see
>>108245678

>>108245412
beauracracy killed solar.

In my state all new builds come with solar panels installed in the roof and you have no choice as to what kind, brand, etc and basically are forced to lease them from a company for X amount of years which tacks on fees for servicing them and such. So basically you get an extra "solar" bill onto your monthly bills that you cant opt out of in any way. This is state mandated and unless you already own an older home or buy a really shitty older home there isnt really any way out of it.

If you own a home in a state without beuracracy issues like this then yeah go for it.

>>108247537
what shithole do you live in? why do you elect women to make decisions like this?

>>108246013
>creek swells up randomly given today's unpredictable weather and floods your entire property
>God rewards your efforts with a bag on a stick to carry what's left of your belongings

>>108247537
simple. when guys come to "service" your sonar panel, you snipe them with a hunting rifle. they were trespassing on your property. simple as. you go to prison, you're a Chad. You win.

>>108246013
Just go and live in the desert

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>>108245412
A gravity battery for every home

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>>108245431
So after 50 years, way past ROI, you still keep getting free energy? Just around 50% less? Sign me up.
>>108245447
There is nothing wrong with well-managed landfills. The material will stay there until we start running out of new ones and it would be cheaper to dig out the panels and recycle them.

>>108245412
did the math on it recently. fitting my house with solar would take like 11-13 years to break even, and that's without financing or batteries. unless im missing something here the juice don't really seem worth the squeeze

>>108246013
>build little dam
> install 60 PVC siphon pipes with impellers in them in parallel

it's free real estate

>>108248554
This shit works like ass. I thought of this and looked into it thinking I was a genius. Then I found out I was retarded.

>>108247537
How did bureaucracy ruin solar panels? Just buy them online bro.

>>108248554
>gravity battery
kek&debunked

Installation cost in the US is stupidly high to the point that it's just not worth it to invest cash up front.
$1,700 annual electric bill
$20,000 for an underpowered solar installation
Investment beats inflation by 4%
That's 17 years to break even without even factoring in service fees to still be hooked up to the grid for rainy weeks etc

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>>108245412
all these panels power my TESLA EV truck so i give NO EXTRA EXPENDED ENERGY back to the city
>i am so fucking based

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>>108249525
gravity batteries work fine if you just use water

>>108245412
EROEI

>>108249477
This guy gets it.
I did the same math and it'd take me 20 years to break even which is about the life span of the solar panels meaning I'd never get ahead.
Thats not even considering the issues with winter in Michigan.
It's still appealing if you hate being tied to the grid, especially in a theoretical emergency.
Also nice not needing to whip out a generator during outages.
In theory.

>>108245546
>4 months of little sun
lucky guy, here it's 6 months of no sun at all

>>108245412
I've got too many trees around my roof. Doesn't get enough sun.

>>108245412
Live too far north to be worthwhile, especially in winter when I would need it most for heating.

>>108249477
>fitting my house with solar would take like 11-13 years to break even
So 20+ years of pure profit afterward?
What's the problem again?

>>108245412
Bought x2 400w panels and inverter
Too scared to work on my roof. And cannot find any nigger willing to do it either
At times I wish I lived in america with their wooden roofs and mexicans roaming around willing to do anything

>>108248554
Me too I love Timberborn

>>108249477
>>108250840
Let me know when you break even paying for gas or coal or whatever

>>108249199
are those wind turbine blades?
pretty sure those are mostly glass fiber, you can slice them up at length and add it to concrete as reinforcement, way stronger than rebar.

>>108249477
I spent 1300euro on a 3200~ kWp setup, no labor cost. My grid supports reinjection and there's plan where they buy it back at 0.1c per kwh. Rough napkin math and I'll mostly reinject 50% from march to september, save about 700 euros a year total and get paid about 250 from reinjection.
Meanwhile a colleague got a quote for a 6k setup and the company wanted 15 000 euros.
Can't really justify batteries though.

>>108251713
>0.1c per kwh.
meant 10c per duh

>>108250724
you car looks like a fema trailer

>>108251713
>reinjection
don't trust this shit, invest in batteries right now, fags in california are complaining that as soon as their bills started to go down the power company lowered the tariff for reinjection down to nothing, still better than australia cunts that have to pay for the privilege to sell back the energy they make.

>>108252697
Oh I know they're gonna reduce the rate eventually but right now they have a 2 years guarantee to buy your electricity at that price so for my personal usecase it would be worth it to pay back my panels and my inverter purchase. Unfortunately electricity is kinda cheap right now at 20c~ so unless our gov decides to sell all our electricity to germany (again) then I've got no point overspending on solar.

>>108252742
I would tell you to mine some cryptoshit with the excess energy but that is crashing and the price of good hardware is through the roof so no dice.

>>108251687
They are trying to implement stuff like that with them, but for now the cheapest way is to just bury them.

>>108246297
I think you are a little bit retarded. I think you should so some math before you start something like this. You need a lot more head and/or an insane flow rate to even generate 500W.

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>>108245412
Anyone investing in solar now is retarded when poly-crystaline panels exist.

>>108245412
>batteries are infinitely recyclable

Are they? Is anyone recycling lithium batteries? Who can I sell my dead batteries to?

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>>108245412
>Why
I got two panels already. Also:
https://rentry.co/solarshit

>>108245447
>can they really be recycled tho
Define recycled.

>do they just crush the semiconductors or something?
Smash it into a powder and feed into glass mix.
Prolly could dunk it in various toxic goop to seperate some things first...

>be cheaper to just produce new ones
Pretty much.

>>108245528
>Nobody tells you just how dead winter is
I wager where you is matters much.
Deploy more solar, that's the cheap part. Also consider a wind turbine or two. Absent sun and wind usually rare.
Even if it's only a 400W turbine that most of the time dishin' out 60-130W... that constant trickle can do something...

>>108245972
Lookin' good on that donut labs fing so far. Should have another .pdf of data soonish. Definitely storing power, curious as to how much it loses over time. But much of it's powerties suit this application.

>>108246013
>>chuck in your backyard creek
I'll put my money on that feature is less common that not.
Where as most people at least have a roof to put the panels on.

>>108253626
>Is anyone recycling lithium batteries?
There's claims. ½ the time they're just stickin' a new sleeve on it and selling it again.

>>108245412
I have a fuckoff-sized tree in my yard that's protected by law that ensures my roof never sees sunlight.

>>108247415
This is complete nonsense.

>>108245412
You don't have free energy for forever. Recycling costs money and you would have to pay for new stuff periodicly even if recycled. It is financially worth to have solar though, if it can be afforded.

>>108254915
>protected by law
In what measure?
Can you solar panel the tree?

>>108254981
>In what measure?
Bankruptcy-inducing fines and possible jailtime, and depending on the time of year I can also get charged with disturbing nesting birds.

>>108250875
>Live too far north to be worthwhile
They are very popular so apparently worthwhile in Norway.

>>108245412
They're recyclable but in practice its really fucking hard to recycle

>>108254915
I'd rather have a beautiful tree than a slightly lower energy bill.

Was the Technology Connections guy's crashout justified?

>>108255063
>worthwhile in Norway
Maybe with subsidies but certainly not energy wise. We have politicians in Scandinavia that brag about installing them north of the arctic circle. Do you think they will actually help the grid and get their energy cost back when they are in a place where there's not enough sun to melt the snow off of the panels for 4-5 months of the year and literally no sun at all for 1 month every year?

>>108245412
Anything is recyclable with enough energy input, but to call either solar panels or lithium batteries recyclable is disengeneous to the max.

>>108255102
Bat crazy politicians have already sent the electricity price into levels never before seen and more is expected. You can save a lot of money also north of the polar circle.

>>108255102
Norway has plenty of hydro power too, so they don't have to do it for environmental reasons.
It's counter-intuitive but apparently they get so much sunlight in the summer months that it's worth it.

As for the arctic circle not many people go there in winter.
But people do go there in summer for holidays when the sun hardly sets if at all.
And it's remote so it makes sense to generate electricity locally.

>>108255097
Personally i'd say it's a mix of yes and no. While he's right that you buy solar panels and batteries and you've got a more-or-less closed loop system, unlike fossil fuels which is open-ended, that's really not a useful way of looking at things because liquid fuel has a much higher power-to-weight ratio than batteries could, and we could always do both at the same time (we are) to accelerate human accomplishment as fast as possible.

Also the foxes/wolves eat the eagles before you get to them. Also modern solar panel tech is woefully inefficient compared to >>108253602 so going all-in on monocrystaline now seems like a bad idea.

>>108250889
Prices dropping fast so it's more advantageous to wait a year

>>108255288
>Norway has plenty of hydro power
Had, sure. The socialists sold a lot of the hydro power to Germany on long contracts at suspiciously low prices, far less tan what we have to pay now.

>>108255024
>can't cut down a tree on your own land

>>108255473
>accelerate human accomplishment as fast as possible
Meaning what, specifically?

>>108247537
Solar panels are so good they force you have them on your homes!

>>108255970
>He comes from a shithole country that doesn't protect nature

>>108256020
most innovations have to be forced unto people unfortunately
its true, it is a myth that people just flock to change their ways and upgrade to innovative new things when they come out without being, it generally needs to be mandated, or they have to not be given a choice anymore.
look at the government for what happens when there's no one higher to force innovations upon them? Still using legacy systems from 6 decades ago and just paying out the ass to maintain it while it dangles precariously

>>108256230
The big problem is that the innovation needs to show a benefit right away. I don't care about ten or fifteen years from now, I care about right now, because I might end up moving house ten or fifteen years from now.

>>108256250
well too bad, get dabbed on low time preference 80 IQ nigger
the state has to make correct choices for you

>>108256205
>state-controlled utility companies dumping gallons of toxic waste into lakes and rivers
i sleep
>man cutting down tree on his own land
OI YOU GOT A LOICENSE TO CUT THAT TREE

>>108256269
>low
i mean high

>>108256205
>protecting nature
>not camping near your home to spy and wait for you to make a mistake so they can profit from you with hefty fines and virtue signaling they've stopped an evil nature destroyer

>>108255984
Why, vaguely utopian pop culture scifi, of course. Computer, make me lunch! <lunch appears from a foot slot or by teleporter> All that hydraulic fracking was worth it after all.

>>108256314
Post today's paper.
In English.

>>108253626
no, recycling batteries is scam
<div><span style="color:#00ffff;font-weight:bold;font-size:24px;">L</span></div>

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>>108256349
these are the people "protecting nature" btw, i wonder if they care about nature as much as they care about the children

>>108256493
Who?

>>108256314
>not camping near your home to spy and wait for you to make a mistake
Anon.... If you can handle this higly refined ragebait looking piece of British news:
https://onionsnews.org/article.pl?sid=26/02/26/0429221
Reading this makes you understand how the government is perfectly fine with counless girls being brutalised.

>>108256493
Now that we know how much they really care about working class children...

>>108256506
Oxbridge graduates, the ruling class in the UK, standing tall above the law.

>>108250889
>>108251595
you also have to factor in things like
>if you're going to live in that house long enough for the panels to pay themselves off
>the (likely higher) monthly cost of panels during the break-even period vs. what your electric bill would have been
>any ongoing maintenance costs (inverter replacement, extra cost of removing solar panels during a roof replacement which alone can wipe out years of return, etc.)
and in my math, 11-13 years was an optimistic estimation. with financing/a slightly worse quote, it would probably be more like 15-20 years. AND i live in one of the sunniest parts of the country (although this also means my electric bills are higher than average since i have to run the AC all the time to not want to kill myself).

it's a shame. panels themselves are cheap as shit but everything else involved kinda rapes the math, especially with the elimination of the tax credit (and the EV credits, too). if you're just chasing returns, you're better off putting the money into the stock market

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just build the damn spicy rock towers

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>>108256896
No. Nuclear is dead in the west, and that's a good thing.

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>>108251595
>using solar panels for heating a house
Can't tell if trolling or just retarded.

>>108258925
Nuclear is only good for frozen wastes that get next to no sunlight for months on end.

>>108253602
>poly-crystaline panels
What's the deal with them? Aren't they commonplace and slightly shitty?

>>108251713
> Can't really justify batteries though.
???
You can buy acceptable quality chinesium for like $3.2k/32 kWh
16 kWh which is enough if you don’t have an electric car is less than $2k for the 'assemble it yourself' versions - they aren’t shittier quality but it makes shipping much cheaper, hence lower prices
i think prices went down like 30% compared to a year ago

>>108260727
If you have a large property and enjoy DIY shit, why not? Couple 10s of kWp of vertical bifacial panel fence, lots of battery, passivhaus or equivalent.

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>>108253626
>Is anyone recycling lithium batteries?
No, but authorities don't like to speak about this.

>>108260766
>why not?
Because a large property needs lots of heat and there's barely any sunlight in winter.

>>108260779
>a large property needs lots of heat
A large poorly insulated property or properties with huge muh glass walls do.

A properly designed passivhaus doesn't.

>>108260805
So it's trolling.

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>>108253626
The biggest problem for recycling lithium batteries will be companies trying to get rid of lithium shit and collapsing demand.

>>108260824
No, most people simply have no frame of reference between the heating requirements of a shitty year naturally ventilated property and something truly modern.

It's a literal order of magnitude difference in heating load.

>>108260841
Lithium is still the best psycho drug, there will always be demand.

>>108254737
>Deploy more solar, that's the cheap part. Also consider a wind turbine or two.
Do you have any idea how loud those shits are? Your little PC fan has 12W, now image a wind turbine with 500W.
>just do something i would never do and have no idea about
The only realistic way to be offgrid in winter is a diesel aggregate.
You could kinda survive with solar if you clear them from snow every few hours and you hope that you never have a week of complete downtime. You can squeeze those few W out of it to drive your central heating and not freeze. But thats about it. You may survive, but you cant do anything more than that.

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>>108245412
>Why haven't YOU taken the solar-pill yet?
1. I live above the arctic circle in northern Europe.
2. Basically zero sunlight and no daylight for more than half the year thanks to polar nights and shit.
3. My house is located in a valley and doesn't get any direct sunlight even in the summer when we have 24/7 daylight except for a couple hours at night.
4. Summer is always rainy and cloudy.

>>108260851
tell this to all those people who built le epic passive house, just to then get wrecked by the electricity requirements, because it needs ventilation with heat exchangers running constantly and the only way to get heat into the building is through electric heaters (because its PASSIVE, it is supposed to have no heating whatsoever, and it needs electricity (with heating, ironically), to achieve this).

>>108260841
You're kinda retarded.
Na+ currently has pretty bad home energy characteristics.
1st and a big one, the voltage range of the cell is MASSIVE. it completely doesn't work at all with any inverter on the market today, we're talking a 48v nominal pack would end discharge at 0% at fucking 15v. Absolutely unreasonable
2. They emit Way more heat when charging or discharging and you might end up needing cooling on a smaller array or if you live in anywhere viable for solar because in summer it will be giga hot
3. The round trip efficiency is like 80% approaching flooded lead acid tier.

LFP is not going anywhere for the next 10 years minimum. Na+ currently is only viable in grid scale energy storage where they can work around the difficulties.

>>108260851
>buy normal house for £100k
>heat normal house
vs
>buy big plot, not surrounded by trees or other houses
>demolish existing house
>find some esoteric builders who know the magic incantations for an extremely energy efficient house
>find esoteric building materials
>install a shitload of solar stuff and batteries
>everything at great cost
>live somewhere for a year or two while it all comes together
>you have now spent £1 million
>savings projection: £1000 per year, best case

>>108260872
> You could kinda survive with solar if you clear them from snow every few hours and you hope that you never have a week of complete downtime
You couldn’t. Anywhere there’s regular snow, like central yurop, you’d need like 8x the panels you’d want outside winter. A big setup in southern spain takes ~100m2, an equivalent setup in berlin would be over 500. It’s doable, but gets into silly territory quickly.
Wind is great but the bigger you go the better the efficiency, it’s not a good option for offgrid setup.

>>108260914
You don't even grasp the whole retardation of that city slicker anon, who thinks he is a pro at energy efficiency and modern housing.

A passive house, like he suggested, is a weld shut box.
You can't even open a window. All the air exchange goes through a central ventilation system, so that hot air that goes out can partially heat the air that comes in with electricity consuming heat exchangers.
They were shilled hard 20 years ago. Some gullible retards fell for it. They had horrid experiences and they died out, as word-of-mouth spread.

>>108258925
That December column looks super suspicious. It is as if they started with realistic fgures for Januare - November, then tallied it up and compared to what they wanted at end of year and piled it all into December.

>>108260727
You can use the electricity from solar panels to power a heat pump to gain even more heating.

>>108260959
There are entire nations with passivhaus equivalent building norms.

You can open a window, it just gets cold if you don't replace the lost heat. Same as with any house.

>>108260884
>wrecked by the electricity requirements, because it needs ventilation with heat exchangers running constantly
Not what I hear. So do you have a source for that? I have two ventilation heat exchangers, installed because of radon problems, and the heat loss is not visible on my heating bill.

>>108260932
>you’d need like 8x the panels you’d want
Why would you want less panels than you need? Vertical bifacials as a fence are dual purpose.

>>108261050
No, you can't. Days are short in winter and the night is when it's coldest.
Solar energy for heating is the most retarded thing imaginable.
I'm surprised you didn't suggest climbing on the roof to warm the body before going to bed.

>>108260909
>LFP is not going anywhere for the next 10 years minimum
Donut labs?
Assumin' they're fulla shit, Toyota reckon they'll be having solid state lithium in cars by 2028. To assume they let that out of their pocket, that can displace LFP.
Then ofc, there's a dozen places in china working on similar...

>because it needs ventilation with heat exchangers running constantly
Decent ground source heat pump should output 50°C mark and score upwards of 12:1 on efficencies...
Even a massive area will heat up reasonably quick when the existing air is being swapped for 50°C.
You'll not like much of 50°C.
*IF* this house is actually insulated, where is that heat gonna go?
That heat pump aint gonna need to run constant.

>>108260959
>They had horrid experiences and they died out, as word-of-mouth spread.
How much of that is the concept is a failure, and how much of that is the implimentation is a failure?

>>108261067
a few years ago, the government requirements for passive houses in Europoor countries were mandating windows that can not be opened

>>108260959
I'm just curious why people seem to swap day with night and winter with summer in their minds when talking about solar stuff.
>you'll use the solar energy to charge your vehicle!
No, because the vehicle is not at home when the sun is shining.
>you can take long showers!
No, because my body is not at home when the sun is shining.
>you can heat your house for free!
No, because I need heating at night and in cloudy days when the output from solar panels is almost nil.
>you can sell surplus energy to recover costs!
No, because nobody needs the energy when my panels produce it.

>>108261122
>How much of that is the concept is a failure
The concept is illogical in the first place, because you need to heat water somehow.
The whole idiotic concept of those houses was the idea to not have any heating unit in the first place, because it's PASSIVE.

It was a complete failure and they lifted requirements and changed definiton. So what is a passive house nowadays, would not have been defined as one a decade ago. The term means nothing and is empty now.

>>108261096
>Solar energy for heating is the most retarded thing imaginable.
If you're resistive heating, sure.

But seriously. You can get a ground source heat pump that will eat 1KW at the wall and deliver 15+KW of heat... you *can* heat a house with that.

Yeah. Winter. Reuced input. Ideally you would account for this. Optimally, compliment with a turbine or two.

>>108261129
>No, because the vehicle is not at home when the sun is shining.
Most don't actually do this, I'll accept, but this is where the batteries come in anon.
Aint no point playing if you aint using batteries.

>No, because
Batteries
>No, because
Batteries

>No, because nobody needs the energy when my panels produce it.
Guess what?
Batteries.
Then you can dump in at your choosing. Tho, desu, you don't wanna waste your bother with gettin' a fraction of the base rate.
But if you have batteries *anyway* it's not a good idea to keep them full of energy, all the time. If you pick a 'good' time to discharge them to maintain cell health, you effectively get paid for cycling the batteries...

>>108261096
Here's some Buddhist retreat doing it in Canada with a lot of DIY.

https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/an-off-grid-solar-community

Obviously it's not for everyone, but for off gridders who want to put in the hours it can work. Moar insulation, moar panels, moar battery, more DIY ... as long as you discount your own labour, it's cheap.

>>108261084
Bifacials are like 14% more efficient than normal panels. You’d be much better off just slapping down an extra panel for every 8 you already have.
As for the amount of panels: 100m2 is doable for any suburban house, or even within a house built in the city proper. Even commie blocks in eastern yurop could get most of the way there if roofs were covered by panels. Raise that to 500-800m2 per person? That’s a much bigger ask unless you have a fair amount of land and a lot of money to throw at it.
Solar panels are popular cause shit’s cheap. Raise prices by over 500% and people would rather pay to get connected to the grid.

>>108261212
>Bifacials are like 14% more efficient than normal panels.
The market in my country is insane at the moment. The extra cost for bifacials is less than a fence post.

>>108261096
>Days are short in winter and the night is when it's coldest.
I already knew that when I posted >>108261050

t.Norwegian

>>108261146
Why do you take showers? We don't do that in Germany!

>>108261169
>more DIY
The problem with this is health hazards and fire hazards.
It isn't hard to install some styrofoam panels yourself. But not having mold in your epically air tight wall and in your ventilation, not breeding a thousand different types of bacteria in your warm water tank, that never reaches a high enough temperature to kill them off, and not burning to death like a zoomer in switzerland, is a different subject.

Why the fuck would you even want passive anything when solar panels are cheap as dirt
pay chinks the five dollars for a warehouse of solar panels (so they conveniently pollute their own country instead of it being done locally) and plaster the entire neighborhood with the fucking things. Pay another five bucks for a truckload of lifepo4 cells and you can even be self sufficient in the middle of wibter unless you live in fucking trondheim
solar panels are magic and even turdworlders from africa are starting to use them. fully passive anything is retarded when solar exists.

>>108261293
Because of the winter months.
That's what this thread is about.

You could of course simply buy a diesel generator for that time, but that's not an option for the government worshipping green energy loonies, who only treat autarky as a selling buzzword.

>>108261311
>autarky
You just taught me a new word, anon.

*kudos*
That's not easy. Mark that on the calandar.

>government worshipping green energy loonies
Evidence to support most people aim for panels out of worship for .gov?
As opposed to my posit, that it's entirely unrelated to the .gov and is centric purely on their personal beliefs. Even if that belief is only they shouldn't pay for energy...

>buy a diesel generator for that time
Could. Could.
But you *could* also get wind turbines. Most places have wind. It might actually only end up as a comparative trickle. But that trickle into a bucket will fill it up... So if you've batteries...

>>108261342
no, a wind turbine buzzing in your yard is not an option

>>108261122
>Decent ground source heat pump should output 50°C mark and score upwards of 12:1 on efficencies...
Mine delivers up to 60°C water for circulation, and much warmer for hot water taps, and I have sufficient power to defrost the road and detached garage during winter. That outdoor circuit will be used during summer to pump heat into the ground to prime the thermal reservoir for the subsequent winter. This is well established tech.

>>108261369
cool, and legionella needs 75 to 80 degrees to die

>>108261358
>is not an option
It is - it's just one you're not willing to entertain...

Tho if a wind turbine is too loud, you really don't wanna be thinkin' about weasle jenny...

They don't needa be that noisy, as a rule. Generally the largest noise is the wind hittin' the blades.
Typically to catch 'good wind' they'll want to be mounted at elevation which will reduce impact further... If you use the house as a mountpoint it's not in the garden anymore...

>>108261122
>score upwards of 12:1 on efficencies
???????
maybe in iceland
the usual is 3-4:1, if you do your homework you get 5:1

>>108261277
>But not having mold in your epically air tight wall
Proper high insulation buildings have a barrier on the warm side. If you do it wrong, at least the mold is on the outside of the barrier.

Heatpumpboilers are cheap and do their own legionella control cycle.

If you're too retarded to do it right, then darwin awards are a feature, not a bug.

>>108261379
>cool, and legionella needs 75 to 80 degrees to die
Typically residental hot water systems don't go much over 60 anon...
Water comes outta my tap @ 75°C but I'm non-standard...

>>108261396
>if you do your homework you get 5:1
Most settle about that ballpark..
A quick glance failed to locate, but I recall lookin' at a model what claimed it'd output up to 17KW whilst eatin' less than 1.5KW atta wall... Don't see nuttin close tho...
Sure I've seen higher n 5:1 but locate little...

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>>108261147
>heat pump that will eat 1KW at the wall and deliver 15+KW of heat
Anon, you're genuinely fucked in the head if you believe that a 15:1 ratio is, or will ever be, possible.

>>108261538
That was an air source pump, btw.

>you're genuinely fucked in the head
That I may be. But for entirely different reasons...

>15:1 ratio is, or will ever be, possible.
I'm not thinkin' much in the way of a 'hard law' of physics that writes this off the cards...

I was under the impression the 'gains' from these sorts of systems is essentially a function of surface area and compression. Surface area to absorb the heat and compression to stick it all in one spot for harvesting...

How much heat you're pullin' outta floor gonna depend on a few things... But from my (possibly, lack of) understanding the electrical cost comes at the compression. Modifying variables around that may have potential benefit...

>>108261379
The 60°C water is in a closed circuit and air is removed.
The tap water is hot enough to kill legionella. There was extensive documentation for the system and quite a bit about safeguards against legionella.

>>108261629
The max theoretical CoP is T-hot/(T-hot - T-cold) in degrees Kelvin says Google.

>>108253602
>>108255473
what are these guys talking about
moncrystalline is better

I actually own solar, it's how I power the minifridge in my van. Solar is great when you are off the grid, or trying to avoid creating noise when off the grid. The rest of the time, you are better off using grid power or a generator. As others have mentioned, the panels degrade over time. Solar is already a trickle-flow charge, so once you get below about 85-80% efficiency, you no longer have enough power to properly charge your batteries. But the biggest issue is the batteries themselves. Lead-acid deep cycle batteries are the most cost effective choice, and they still have an expected lifespan of 5 years. Even if you ignore the startup costs of wiring, charge controller, mounting brackets, etc, the regular replacement costs of panels and batteries makes solar have a higher cost-per-KW/hr than just using a generator.
All of this is info I was told and didn't believe from a man who lived out of an RV and used 100% solar for all his power. After getting my own panels and batteries, I understood what he was talking about. Solar is great, in specific use-cases. If you don't have those specific use-cases, grid power or a generator is superior.

>>108262958
>Solar is already a trickle-flow charge, so once you get below about 85-80% efficiency, you no longer have enough power to properly charge your batteries.
are you retarded?
>Lead-acid deep cycle batteries are the most cost effective choice
oh nvm you definitely are

>>108261169
>https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/an-off-grid-solar-community
I was surprised to read that batteries last only 8 years, is that true?

>>108263438
>I was surprised to read that batteries last only 8 years, is that true?
without losing any capacity maybe?

Euro anon here who works for a energy company, europe is banking hard on future massive battery parks that will store green energy.
They are already reserving land for this and putting up powerlines for these future battery parks.
The fact that we cant make these batteries ourselves and will have to buy them all from china, and that the storage capacity is a joke for suplying a real energy baseline is beyond the greenfag politicians who decide these battery parks will be the future of europe.

>>108263579
https://tractebel-engie.com/en/news/colossal-battery-park-in-belgium-to-store-energy-to-power-385000-households/

This is one of those battery parks, this one will be used as promo tool to the public, and they will hide all the faults and only sell the good sides of it to us.

>>108263579
>the storage capacity is a joke for suplying a real energy baseline
>>108258925

>>108263597
How are you going to use solar panels to fill up battery parks in places like europe and north america where there is no sun in fall and a winter?

>>108245412
the amount of retardation in a few words you shat out is astounding. i'm kind of impressed actually.

>>108258925
This poster is German, ignore what he says.

>>108263585
>>108263579
I spent $5.3k on batteries and got 64 kwh of lifepo4 which will last north of 15 years (10000 cycles, realistically 5000 since age + chink lies). 64 kwh is enough for like 5 days for a midsized house, unless it’s like -20C outside.
how the fuck aren’t batteries a good energy storage option?
>muh no sun
Grid scale you also get windmills. muh dunkelflaute - just burn gas

>>108264632
>$5.3k on batteries and got 64 kwh

So you bought a shitload of single batteries from temu and rigged them up yourself or what because that price is bullshit otherwise.

>>108264673
prices are going down by a fuckton lately. there’s plenty of decent chinesium at 2.5-3k for 32 kwh banks, I ordered two. the cells used are the same as the more expensive ones since it’s just a few factories manufacturing those, the difference is build materials for the boxes, the bars and cables inside, the bms, whether theyre fit for being outside or inside only and whether theyre certified (those are not since idc, but this isnt an issue for gubmints).
best thing is that the cell manufactories arent even running at full capacity at the moment so prices are liable to fall down even further. grid scale you get them even cheaper, and possibly you can do some funky shit with sodium and so on that you’d never want to use at home

>>108264716
I would not put those in my house but somewhere outside in a shed because those chinesium fuckers could burn your house down.
Give me link of where you found them.

>>108264751
I’m on a train atm with only a phone so i cant find the details but I literally just bought from amazon. you can probably get a better deal on aliexpress or whatever.
theres ruixu that is certified for insurance but thats extra money, then theres yixiang(?) which is ruixu but not certified. you get all the materials and need to assemble it yourself but its like 1-2 hours of work per box. there was some company with a panda logo which had them even cheaper and the insides looked good enough but idk, havent tested obviously.
i do have them in a shed outside just in case, the inverter can be pretty loud so its more convenient that way anyway (10kW SungoldPower manufactured by SRNE is both cheap and of decent quality, zero issues so far, just make sure its srne and not some shitass xingpong)

>>108264798
>ruixu
They sell those here in eurostan but they are way more expensive then in the US.

>>108264751
>because those chinesium fuckers could burn your house down.
chyna does 98% of global lifepo4 production
saying chink batteries will set your shit on fire seems silly when chink batteries are the only batteries you can buy unless you go li ion, but those are much shittier for long term storage

>>108264858
There is a difference between <100wh you find in common electronics, and tens of kwh. Even a 500wh ebike battery is very destructive if it catches fire. Those however are different chemistries, lifepo4 is supposed to be more stable. I even saw a video of someone stabbing and piercing one directly with no fire, and when they do burn supposedly it's not as fierce. But with that much energy I would still be careful.

>>108263585
>700MW. This corresponds to the average energy consumption of 385,000 households stored by the batteries each year and fed back into the electrical grid.

Massive red flag:
Mixing up power (W) and energy (Wh)

Nowhere does it even mention the storage capacity.
So utter bullshit "article" by """journalist""" (more likely AI slop).

>>108264858
>chyna does 98% of global lifepo4 production
I would still buy from a reputable European brand that sources their cells carefully and does its own QC instead of some Chinese black box that might contain anything inside.

Especially after watching this video on the difference in quality between various battery cell suppliers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y23nfAOiXQ

>>108264892
Equally disturbing is the fact that it is all in the open, easily accessible for bomb carrying drones. It is as if nobody has learned anything from the war in Ukraine.

>>108264930
This, even the chinese themself rather buy from western brands then buy their own because they know how much the chinese like to scam the system.

>>108264930
Buying directly from china without some importer intermediary is too risky. You can get +10y guarantees for chinesium battery packs.

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I didn't watch because I know this guy is a blind libshitter and he links anti ice shit in all his descriptions, but does he actually have a point here?

>>108262004
Don't sound electrical to me...
Suggests strongly this 5:1 is a configurational thing more than a physical limit thing...

>>108263438
>batteries last only 8 years, is that true?
Depends on many things...
What type of batteries. LiFePo4 will last longer than AGM. AGM should go longer than wet acid.
How often they cycle - fully and partially ... Leaving cells full isn't good for 'em helf ... Precise charge/discharge profiles impact greatly.
But by 8 year you should be able to detect some loss in lead acids...

Donut Labs claim they have a solid state battery. A little up in the air at the moment, ½ the world claiming scam. Seen supposedly 'independant' testing produce some graphs of charge/discharge - and it does look like a battery. How good of a battery is another thing entirely but one of the "interesting" properties to the solid state tech is number of charge cycles. Where decent Li-Ion chemistry will cycle 2-4k solid state should 100k+... I'd imagine these to last significantly longer than 8 years...

>>108263579
>cant make these batteries ourselves
You're limiting your thinkin' to lithium?

>the storage capacity is a joke for suplying a real energy baseline
MW is MW?

>>108265013
>easily accessible for bomb carrying drones
And the rest of the infrastructure isn't?
What's your plan here, einstien? Nets everywhere? Literally everywhere?

>>108245431
200% over provision and have 100% of your needs met for the rest of your natural existence. Life is a temporary problem, bud. Stop looking for permanent solutions.

>>108265328
I didn't watch because I'm a zoomer with a short attention span. I just like solar panels so I say he btfo'd chuds.

>>108246013
My backyard creek is like 300 meters from my house. Too much land is a curse.

>>108260932
>Regular snow
>Like central yurop
Yeah man, like 2 days a year. The snow is really killing us here. Anyways, just get heat strips. The power demand is nothing compared to what the panels output.

>>108265367
Wanna trade for a suburb house

>>108265342
>>the storage capacity is a joke for suplying a real energy baseline
>MW is MW?
MW isn't a measure of storage capacity.

>what's the range of your car?
>it has 200 horsepower!

>>108262958
Solid advice, anon. Thanks

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Solar and wind are shit, retarded eunuch germans are now paying for russian gas instead

>>108265506
Gas is cleaner than nuclear. Historically if every coal and nuclear plant was replaced by a gas plant we'd be in a much better place right now. Halved CO2 emissions, no Chernobyl, Fukushima, Three Mile Island, no nucler waste lying around.

>>108265506
They're paying for Qatari gas, which is now cut off due to the Iran war.

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>>108265539
>Chernobyl
retarded Societ design
Fukushima
zero deaths, zero harm to the environment.
>Three Mile Island
zero deaths, zero harm to the environment.
>no nucler waste lying around.
pic related.

>>108265557
In any case, nuclear is dead >>108258925 and we fortunately don't have to deal with anymore nuclear poo at least in western countries.

>>108265367
>My backyard creek is like 300 meters from my house
So build a shed.
The shed houses the storage, inverters etc. Build it across the creek it can house the generator too.
Once you hit AC your transmission losses will drop, so runnin' 300 meters isn't an impossible task...

>>108265452
>MW isn't a measure of storage capacity.
True.
But one would persume you actually get the point as you failed to refute it.

>Fukushima
zero deaths,
Directly?
Well I can think of two workers on site that had no detection equipment that was exposed to enough of a dose to render them unconscious instantly. See pictures of 'em leaving hospital, but iunno if it was them. I imagine they're not too healfy if alive. Most of the yakuza conscripted homeless sent in to clear it up are difficult to trace. Probably why that method was selected.

Are you able to evidence the large thyroid cancer rate in children is unrelated to fukashima?

>zero harm to the environment.
Yeah. You can throw three active nuclear cores into the ocean with no long term consequence. That sounds about right.
I'm sure the high cancer rate in bottom feeders, multi-species dieoffs, mass beachings etc since are all just a co-incidence.
The gulf of mexico scoring readings for strontium 90 and cesium 134 a few years later comparable to 1 mile offshore fuckashima a month after the incident is fine...

>>108253602
So why exactly is using nos too soon bad?
Surely being up to the max speed earlier is better.

>>108265671
>I imagine they're not too healfy if alive.
One worker has gotten cancer but there is no evidence it has anything to do with the incident.
People get cancer all the time.

>Are you able to evidence the large thyroid cancer rate in children is unrelated to fukashima?
There was no increase rate.
And they monitored it very carefully.

What the scaremonger lugenpresse probably told you was they discovered a record number of people with early thyroid cancer.
But that's because they discovered those cancers years earlier than they would have if they hadn't performed all those tests.
Thyroid cancer has a 100% survival rate if you discover it in it's early stage, so ironically the Fukashima incident actually SAVED lives.

>>108265671
>The gulf of mexico scoring readings for strontium 90 and cesium 134 a few years later comparable to 1 mile offshore fuckashima a month after the incident is fine...

>OMG Fukushima has as little radiation as the rest of the world it's not elevated at all it's normal NOOOOOOOOO we're all GONNA DIEEEEEEEEE! from the completely normal strontium 90 and cesium 134 levels found everywhere else.

>>108266078
>People get cancer all the time.
Yeah. I'm sure getting 170-180 millisieverts unconscious near that pool is just coincidence.
For scaling. It's 0.03 in this room right now.
>There was no increase rate.
Before fukashima: 0.22 cases per 100,000 people
After fuksashima : 0.55 cases per 100,000 people
That's over doubled.

>>108266129
>it's not elevated at all
As I'm able to track the initial manhatten tests still lapping, that's clearly bullshit.

>from the completely normal strontium 90 and cesium 134 levels found everywhere else.
The completely normal byproducts of fissiled plutonium/uranimix?
What leads you suppose these are occured 'normally'?
What leads you to believe their distribution is uniformly applied?

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BECAUSE YOUF UCKING IDIOT WE CAN'T AFFORD HOUSES, WHERE ARE WE GOING TO PUT THE PANELS???

>>108267152
Without a house your energy requirements should drop right thru the floor and you can very easily carry that panel with you.

>>108255097
His point on solar panels comes with a lot of unexplained asterisks but he is right that we should be switching cars from petroleum to electric because with electrics you can diversify the production of the electricity to any power producing source whereas with petroleum thats all you get. As for the end of the video he shouldve never recorded that, its undermines the entire video because hes ranting about tribal bullshit, espoused factually incorrect information about a current thing, and then proceeds to encourage people to blindly participate in tribal bullshit. Dates the video in a bad way. He'll never remove it even if he regrets it since he has tribal brain which means he cant let some made up boogeyman win.

>>108265342
>And the rest of the infrastructure isn't?
Much is. The question is how easily you can replace parts. Pylons and wire structures have already been attacked, seeminly in trials, but are easily fixed. A bombed battery facility with thermal runaway to boot, not so much.
We had a risk report made here a few decades ago, pointing out risks and power infrastructire. Of course, exactly nothing was done.

>>108269396
>the question is how easily you can replace parts
Which is why in all feasibility, before battery banks was an option, the 'best' targets will be either the power stations themselves - making the turbines smash each other comes with a long lead time on replacement. Replacing dozens at the at the same time untenable - with substation equipment a close second.

Pylons are an easy fix and more likely some kids, or child intellect adults. Or some sort of theater where they attempt to generate excuses, like 'terrorists' attacking transportation. IF the goal was 'terror' they'd hit the power first, as that's fragile, then go for the comms. Just the chaos from them two will be enough - but it'd then allow for some real terror to happen without a co-ordinated response...

>A bombed battery facility with thermal runaway to boot, not so much.
A large concern should be where these bomb carrying drones is commin' from. Sure them things sported in ukraine is cheap. But the explosives is C4 specifically because it's light enough to pick up.... Don't tend to get that off the shelf... Ofc, a drone loaded up with a lil thermite pack might get lift I suppose and have similar effect... Unless they fibo tho this *should* be solvable with commercial equipment that'll send pulses ordering the drone to land. A signal jammer to compliment it for modifed firmware ignoring the signal. A wise move would be to build the battery housing larger than the batteries. Few meter between the racking and the wall should mean unless the building real easy to get into the drones are on the wrong side of a wall...
This is ofc assuming by 'drone' you meant quad/octacopter. Legs is a different paradigm, but most fielded options can be defeated by terrain adjustment...

>Of course, exactly nothing was done.
Takes time for any monolithic beast to do anythig. Oil tanker don't spin on a dime. Takes miles to break or adjust course...

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>>108245412
>Why haven't YOU taken the solar-pill yet?

I have. Pic related is what I'm getting here in the frozen wastes. Cost 5K Euroshekels for 10+KW worth of panels and a hybrid inverter. Got 2K back thanks to subsidies. Just need a battery and I'll be able to run with no external power for 2/3 of the year.

>>108245412
>solar panels: not efficient enough
>batteries: not good enough
Once they are, I will switch.

>>108261122
You're kinda retarded, I'm not going to bother explaining why at this point

>>108271164
>not efficient enough
20% of something for nothing is better than 0% of something for nothing...
Unless you've reasonable expectation of a significant change on the horizon, it's prolly not within interest to hold off on it.

>>108271215
>I'm not going to bother explaining why at this point
Because it'll get instantly swatted with facts, logic, and reason.
Does lead to the question of why you'd bother at all, really.

>>108271278
20% is a fuck ton
plants tend to use only around 3%

>>108247485
Don't worry, no roof is solar panel proof. Someone in my yuropoor neighborhood had a crane fall on their house that had a solar-paneled roof. I think they may ironically have been servicing or installing said panels. One of the legs of the crane had sunk enough into the dirt for it to tip over IIRC.

>>108260766
>just store 6 months worth of heating energy over the summer, no big deal
Most interesting hypothetical.

>>108245412
it's ugly and it contributes 0 inertia to the grid, making it effectively a tumor.

>>108271971
>0 inertia
That's not necessarily true. In a country where inverters use volt-watt control and the voltage is inside the control range, even without a battery, inverters provide virtual inertia. Most countries were insanely late regulating small inverters though.

Modern battery inverters can be centrally managed to give voltage and frequency support (essentially a distributed grid forming generator). No black start support yet though, but it could be done in theory.

i really want solar panels cause electricty is 30 cents and also you get grandfathered into g1:1 grid usage for 20 years BUT it means you have to 1 make sure your roof its totally upto date on repairs, 2 means you cant make any modification to roof or house for a long time

>>108272259
Can't you just get the inverter, put one panel somewhere in the garden to get into the program and then add more panels later?

>>108251595
The thing is, special needs anon, after you "break even" you have to buy back in, putting you right back in the red.
It's the same as having paid for utilities all that time but all up front.

And if you have damage to your equipment from weather or if the battery system fails, the utility company isn't going to come out and restore power either.

It's an ongoing bill at BEST just like paying for electric.

It has positives, especially for off grid, but it isn't just an upgrade from grid power.

>>108272116
thanks GPT but that's exactly what big green wants you to think.

>>108272297
kek i thought of that too, but they only lock you in for the amount that you have installed. ie you get one 250 watt panel installed and that's all thats get grandfathered in

>>108264632
>spent $5.3k
>how the fuck aren’t batteries a good energy storage option?
You answered this yourself. The money you paid for batteries alone covers my gas heating for the next 15 years.
And my house is 101 years old, a properly insulated house would stretch those $5.3K for an extra 5 years.of heating.

>>108245412
Because despite being able to buy panels cheap, I still have to pay some chucklefuck 15 grand to install them since I'm neither an electrical engineer nor good with heights.

>>108272947
this is the real issue. I wonder when the installation of panel will be lowered.
They should make panels with a sticky back where you just peel of the sticker on the back and then put the panel down and stick it to the top of your roof. Everyone will have panels then. One cord from the panel to your house and you ca plug everything you want into it. Well okay that part might need professional help to get it integrated into your home. But the mounting part should be easierbe much ea

The upfront cost is still quite high; and I'm not confident that I will be living in my current house long-term.

I do use a lot of electricity, and drive an EV, so my utility bills are pretty brutal. When I move into my forever house, I will almost certainly go solar+batteries, and replace any gas appliances with electric. I think I'd also like so massively oversize it and sell energy back to the utility, and have room to expand my electric use, like if I buy an AMD GPU

>>108273274
>sell energy back to the utility
This won't last, depending on location.
In England you get between zero and fuck all for your production.

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i have a batterybank but no solars
i just charge it up during low costs and export it back during high costs
my electricity bills are basically negative because i'm playing /biz/ with electricity
although i don't think this would work if my sleep schedule wasn't upside down

Is it hard to turn wind power into compressed air?

I have battery and solar, it's pretty awesome having my own power system in my house

>>108274117
Do you make your own battery?

>>108274135
No i bought it from China
Comparative advantage

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>>108245412
Nuclear energy produces more energy we could ever use given the amount of uranium there is vs how efficient it is even if the entire world adopted it, the waste it produces is so tiny and can be buried underground until its safe to dispose of, its completely safe and clean and its less harmful to live near a nuclear power station than any other non renewable power station.

The only reason we dont use nuclear power is because a bunch of rich kikes who inherited their daddies business want to stay rich by sitting on their already established empires and they have enough money and power to brainwash the public and spread fear and doubt. How much money does the American government waste every year? They can't subsidise the production of nuclear power stations across the country? Get real

>>108271963
>Most interesting hypothetical.
Legit, I'd be *far* more interested in storing the cold of winter to deploy in the summer...
But, yeah, the 'how' has thus far escaped me.

>>108272939
>covers my gas heating for the next 15 years.
Factoring in for the exponential price rise?
5k for 15 yrs is comically low. How you achieving this?

>And my house is 101 years old
Thissun just comin' up for 200. As I know my neighbour on gas I just had a nosey at their consumption. Done £350 last month. I'll assume most o that aint the cooker.

>>108272947
>I'm neither an electrical engineer nor good with heights.
If you've any competence, certs should be a piece o piss - also cover you for other work about the house - as fo heights... Scaffolding. Rent scaffolding. If that's done right you've a nice walkway, safety rails, places to tie off...
15k sounds like a lot for install. You might be able to find someone who'll let you do it, then just sign the ticket...

>>108272963
>they should make panels with a sticky back where you just peel of the sticker on the back and then put the panel down
Pretty sure y'can get them - intended for caravans, motorhomes, boats that sorta.
Polycarbonate panels are thin, light, and somewhat flexible. Seen 'em bodged to the roof of things with mastic - prolly cheaper.

>top of your roof
Depends on the roofing material as to how sensible that is. Anything the panels will outlast will cause issues with the replacing of... Things like slates that will - smashing aside - outlast the panel typically fail around the fixings, nails usually, and if the panel is stuck to a tile that needs replacing, and fifty others around it(mebbbe slight excageration) it'll cause problems there...
The current method of racking then bolting to that - if you have that mounted low enough /blocked to occlude wildlife - has it's merits for long term maintainence. Easy to swap out any one panel, easy to move all the panels and get near the roof...

>>108273829
Directly.... Powering a piston via wheel... Think train... This was solved centuries ago.
However. The torque you get from that will be directly related to the speed of the wind...

IF you're desperate to stick mechanical, consider the windmill powering a flywheel to build up inertial energy, and use *that* to drive the pistion...

But I'd personally just get a 12V turbine for a couple o hundred and wire the charge controller that comes with to a leisure battery - or if determined for cheaps, an old car battery, it's mostly about "float charge", but a good battery will run without wind - and then use the electricty to power a common car tire inflator that self rates 120PSI or more.... and charge the tank that way...

Flatmate charges his tanks from my dump load...

>>108274163
>the waste it produces is so tiny
Remind me again. How many tonnes of that was sitting in the spent fuel pool in the No 4 unit at fukashima when shit whent tits up?
How long do you need to apply electricty to pumps to keep that fuel cool before you can 'bury it underground safely'? Also. Prove that's "safe".
How long do you need to apply electricity to pumps to keep the fuel cool before you can even open the reactor to get the fuel into the pool?

>The only reason we dont use nuclear power is because
Some people can think.

Hundreds of billions of dollars have been spent managing nuclear waste over the decades. An absolutely colossal waste of resources.

>>108274262
>Polycarbonate panels are thin, light, and somewhat flexible. Seen 'em bodged to the roof of things with mastic - prolly cheaper.
Could theoretically be cheaper, due to the state of the market no way. Standard panels are way cheaper.

>>108274407
>Standard panels are way cheaper
I was actually meaning it's cheaper to get 'common' ones and use mastic than seek the ones with adhesive backing rated to vehicular wind velocities.
But as you wanna go there:
200W monocrystaline polycarbonate https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005009094295087.html
200W monocrystaline glass https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006169444504.html
And that aint cherry picked. just the first of each I hit.

Polycarbonate is a standard. It's produced in bulk, and as it's *far* less energy intensive than glass, cheaper.
Resilience... I'm putting my money on glass. That said. The slight flex to these polycarbonate fuckers make them less fragile overall...

>>108249477
>>108250840
>math
My girl's parents did this and I helpfully showed them that the panels/batteries they were looking at were priced at like 20X comparable alternatives online.
If solar is not your best option, it's usually because you're fucking retarded.

>>108274693
Boomers in general are completely clueless when it comes to shopping online.
Scroll through any commodity with hundreds of options on Amazon, like plain rice, and you'll find tens of thousands of morons paying 2X, 5X, 10X, 20X per pound for fucking white rice because they trust whatever algorithm puts an item at the top of the search results.

>>108274693
yes, i know you can get panels cheap online--but there's a lot more that goes into the cost of a solar installation than just panels

didnt peg tech connection to be anti-semetic lol

>>108245528
Yeah but the summer is so sunny here, if you have panels not only you don't need any other source of energy, but you either store the excess or sell it.
Thus offsetting your consumption when there's no sun.
So I'd definitely get panels if I had my own house

>never snows where I live
feels good man
never buying petrol again

>>108274262
>exponential price rise?
No such thing. It's cheaper than last year.
>5k for 15 yrs is comically low. how
Winters, not years. Winters are mild here, -3 degrees is the lowest temperature and that's only a few nights each winter.
Also, we keep the temperature at 18-19 degrees instead of 21-22, our neighbors pay almost twice as much in an identical house.

>>108275003
>offsetting your consumption
Do you imagine that you get some credit for the energy you produce in summer? Most places buy it from you at 1/10th of the price so you'd have to push 10 times more than you consume just to break even.

>>108254737
>Absent sun and wind usually rare.
What, windless late autum with fog is a yearly occurence

are batteries gonna drop in price overnight or is it gonna be a more gradual thing?

>>108275696
I think it'll be more alternative chemistries improve to the point where lithium is no longer a bottleneck

>>108275233
>No such thing.
To ignore all the artificial restraints placed on supply of recency in order to shape prices and the steady devaluation of the currency you use to pay it in...
Expect extraction costs to continually rise, and as 'better' energy sources are pivoted towards, loss of economies of scale.

>Winters, not years.
Makes a difference...

>Winters are mild here, -3 degrees is the lowest temperature and that's only a few nights each winter.
Not too far off here. These houses 200 y/o, well few year out. I'll accept out prices is pure rapage, but last month neighbour spent £350 on gas. Tend to think that wasn't all the cooker.

>our neighbors pay almost twice as much in an identical house.
Yeah, I wager their dial up. I don't does gas so... 0

>>108275533
>windless late autum with fog is a yearly occurence
For how long? It's usually not long before wind.
My turbines are rated for 2m/s - which isn't fast at all - meaning they're supposed to start making juice there, but they actually kick in @ 1.2m/s which is just under walking pace for a woman, and the faster it goes the more it does...

Idea here *is* for the trickle charge. Typically wind doesn't scale as well as solar, most don't want the massive blade sweeps. But a trickle can be very useful. It's it's relatively easy to array.

>>108275696
Both. It's already droppin' gradual.
Once donut labs scale up, being carbon based, they should be able to smash lithium prices.

To assume what they're sporting isn't suitable for this load...
Then sodium ion is already beating lithium ion on price - lithium beats it on energy densisity... But if you aint picking it up and walking around with it regular, who gives a fuck what it weighs - use a little more of it and you can get the same effect.

>>108245431
>Buy fuel once
>Degrades 100% over 1 use
Huh

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>>108276328
My gas has the same quality it had last year through the same pipe. Same for electricity, in fact it's getting better every decade (from 220V all the way up to 240V).
You do realize that we're not talking about renting vs buying property, right? The panels have almost no resale value, they add no value whatsoever to the house, and you have to pay for them in full *today* whereas gas/electricity will be paid over many years so $100 paid for gas next year is less than the $100 you paid last year.
There is no path that leads to recovering your solar investment, in the UK at least. Solar is a luxury and a lifestyle choice, not an investment.

>>108276473
>You do realize that we're not talking about renting vs buying property, right?
Energy.
But that's precisely what we're talking. Renting energy vs buying the production means.

>There is no path that leads to recovering your solar investment
IF you're buying it to sell it to the companies at a fraction of baserate. Sure.
If you're decoupling yourself from spiralling costs you'll begin to notice pretty quickly.

>not an investment
Depends on how you define 'investment' anon.

I personally consider deploying so I'm not pulling from the wall an investment. Both your electricity and you gas will cost more this time next year, and the currency you pay it in will be worth less.

>>108276500
>If you're decoupling yourself from spiralling costs you'll begin to notice pretty quickly.
No, that's not how it works. The £200/year saving is the absolute best you can save with £10k "invested" in solar panels. It's the UK Gov number based on real life data.
I'm sorry that real life doesn't align with your beliefs.

electricity is stupid cheap where I live so its not worth it for me. it would literally take decades to offset the cost.

Got my 3kwp array finished yesterday, today is the first day of production. Pretty sunny day with light clouds.
Micro-inverter chinkware is kinda poopy and only updates every 5mins. Generated 13khw today and it was above 500~ the entire times so that takes care all my day-time electronics consumption. Reinjected 9khw into the grid so that was a lot wasted.
So that's a whole euro saved, lol. The entire kit was 1250 and we bought it because sales clearance and honestly kinda bored and wanted a project to do with my dad since the setup was kinda simple.
Overall it's okay. Not worth it if you pay for labour. Might get an EV for me mum now.

>>108245412
b-but what about the profits of the coal and gas companies???
have you thought about that?
how dare you think of becoming power independent you are supposed to be goy cattle

>>108277404
To add, I'm currently buying my first house, and I always wanted solar panels and batteries and a heat pump and to insulate the whole house to the highest standards.
While looking for government grants, I kept finding all sorts of estimates that seemed completely ridiculous, like £15k exterior insulation saving only £250/year *assuming* £2000 annual energy expenses (so 2.2x my actual expenses). I'd be saving £115 per year on a £15k investment! Burning the money for heat would yield the same return on investment.
I lurk in Facebook groups, I speak with neighbours – the government data is not bullshit, nobody sees any meaningful savings. People save more by switching to a different supplier or tariff, and that is free.

>>108277404
In theory a battery system means you don't pull power from the grid, meaning most evenings you might even pull power from the grid.
But in the UK that probably costs another 10-20k so not worth it either, if your houses are even big enough for a decent battery.
(Must suck living in the statistically smallest houses in the west, kek)

>>108277404
>The £200/year saving is the absolute best you can save with £10k "invested" in solar panels. It's the UK Gov number based on real life data.
Is that real liife data, tho?
Realistically £10k is a *rediculous* amount of solar. Lets say you half that to spunk 5k on a battery bank. Knock another K off the panels to get an inverter you should still be walkin' off with ~5KW o PV and the better part of 10KW storage.
Compliment that with a couple of £250 400W turbines - which admittedly isn't in .gov scope - and you have pretty much zero need for the wall. At all.
Which for most people is significantly more than £200/year.

>>108277647
I think it's accounting for the panels, the installation, the planning permission, getting everything certified by an electrician.

>>108277647
>£10k is a *rediculous* amount of solar
That includes installation cost, but no batteries AFAIK.

>>108277647
you are so fucking delusional it's insanity. you arent getting a 5kw system for 10k and btw 5kw is fucking nothing. you want to spend 20 grand to live like a 5kwh pauper.

notice none of these fuckin solarfags even own homes.
always with the keyboard idealism.

>>108245412
Currently it barely returns your investment after 20 years and then needs to be changed, the old one is scrapped for precious metals and thrown in some african lanfill

>>108250611
Yeah this is the main reason why solar is pointless for most people, unless you live truly off the grid or are in a state with retard tier electric prices you're going to be better off finically by just throwing that money in your IRA

>>108265328
The only video of his that I saw was him explaining that window awnings can completely replace ACs. His reasoning was that his cat lays down and a 1950s ad for installing window awnings.

>>108277585
>£15k exterior insulation
14k of labour, 1k of materials.

>>108276473
>There is no path that leads to recovering your solar investment
DIY.

>>108277461
how cheap

>>108276473
People who put solar panels up in cloudy climates are a special kind of retard anyway. They make sense somewhere like phoenix where AC eats a fucking ton of electricity anyway and you can offset their height from the roof to negate direct sunlight onto it. But they build houses completely fucking retarded in phoenix still anyway. All homes should be dugouts where the home is a walk down to being mostly underground to reduce cooling costs. I know the ground is hard and expansive but the benefits are worth it and that's what the hohokam indians all did to live in the shit climate.

>>108278107
It's more like 4k for materials.
The work isn't easy since it's installing the foam panels, then coating and painting. Probably a week of work for 2-3 people. But holy shit do they charge for it.

>>108279045
>hurrdurr just live underground with no windows
lmao

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>>108279870
Not him but I think he means like this.
It is comfy temperature wise, plus you can look up girls skirts.

>>108245412
>>panels are infinitely recyclable
>>batteries are infinitely recyclable
lol

>>108277679
>the installation
Can sting. But there are ways and means...

>the planning permission
Generally non-issue outside of heritige listed buildings. Luckily, the grade two listing only applies to one side of this structure, and it faces north...

>getting everything certified by an electrician.
Assumin' you'll not take the ticket yourself for cliits and tickles 'cause it's a piece of piss and y'can do it in ten min, then you *should* be able to find one willing to 'just inspect your work' and sign off...

>>108277734
>you arent getting a 5kw system for 10k
No. You can solar *far* cheaper than that. Try actually talking to suppliers, anon. Alibaba *full* of 'em. Which is why I sliced it to 4k to leave some room for some other things...

>5kw is fucking nothing
Sure it aint the biggest slice of a pie ever seen. But unless you're doing something stupid like resistive heating it's workable. Doubly so if y'can top-up with turbines. I have large industrial resistors just for the dump load... Have been thinkin' about throwin' an antminer on there...

>you want to spend 20 grand
I'm puttin' down £20k, you can bet your left nutsack I'm comin' back with more than 5KW. I can buy more than 5KW worth of Victron panels in this country for that.

>>108278065
>why solar is pointless for most people
That aint why it's "pointless" for "most" people.
Most people live - statistically - in cities. We're talking 3D here. The square meter of roof per person sucking power ratio *real* wrong.

Where it *can* work is small to medium homes... Can being dependant on many things, least of all where that home actually is...

I do stongly advise you to consider the fragile nature of the grid, it's current stresses, and the additional stresses intended to be applied. I advise self-sufficiency. If you have a 'better' method than solar, select it.

>>108278016
>20 years and then needs to be changed
Unless you've physically smashed it, expect ~80% capacity in 20 years.
80%
Now look at a graph of energy prices over time. Narrow to the last 20 years. Extrapolate from current data using that trend: What does your energy cost in two decades? Mine is still free. I'm not an idiot so I might have a shed full of panels to just swap them out round-robin, but over two decades if there have not been any improvment in panel efficencies, I don't think they'll be in short supply to add another few to overcompensate that 20% loss whilst you prepare to round robin...

>>108279045
>All homes should be dugouts where the home is a walk down to being mostly underground to reduce cooling costs. I
I understand your reasoning. This is impractical in many locations. Least of all for the water table... there are solutions to this. None as good as: just don't do it.

>>108278065
In parts of Europe, the Chinese dumped their overflowing warehouses so solar panels are now so cheap that people use these as fences.

>>108278100
This tells me he's as retarded as I thought

>>108280090
>Most people live - statistically - in cities
not relevant, they aren't the people in the market for residential solar installations

>Where it *can* work is small to medium homes
see
>unless you live truly off the grid or are in a state with retard tier electric prices you're going to be better off finically by just throwing that money in your IRA
I could spend twenty thousand dollars on a setup that still will not cover my energy usage in summer or 2.5x my money in 10 years by sticking it in VOO

>>108245412
I got solar and now I pay more for my fucking electricity. It is the most retarded shit ever.
After they installed and drill holes everywhere I asked them what I need to do whenever there is a black out, they said the panels need electricity to work so they arent going to do shit in case of emergency. That was the most retarded shit I ever heard.
Im planning selling my house just because those stupid panels.

>>108281694
lmao

>>108254737
You cannot just crush a monocrystalline solar cell you fucking sped.
The entire premise of the P/NP junction relies on having a single crystal of silicon for hole pairs

genuinely planning to fuck off to a thirdie country and make a solar energy company
there's little to none local competition and it's barely regulated
I know a friend or two that are basically living the dream like this

>>108256829
>during a roof replacement
what 3rd world county are you from to to be aware of that concept? who the fuck changes roof once it's been installed, do you also replace walls?