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>>50695921
Here's another big one:

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>>50695921
One more:

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This one almost feels like cheating considering ZUN stole like half of it's early ideas from SMT.

>>50695925
>fate

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It's porn, but otherwise it honestly works way too well:

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>>50695921
>DOOOOOOD THEEEMES IDEAAAAS FICTIOOON
>THIS FICTION IS BETTER THAN OTHER FICTION BECAUSE IT DOES FICTION BETTER MEANING THAT IT'S MADE UP AND IMAGINARY IN AN ARBITRARY WAY
Christ I hate fictiontroons.

>>50695942
ZUN and Nasu basically drew from the exact same well of early Otaku culture. Both are insanely influenced by SMT, for instance.

The main difference is that Nasu Is a women.

>>50695944
>DOOOOOOD THEEEMES IDEAAAAS FICTIOOON
Yes.

>>THIS FICTION IS BETTER THAN OTHER FICTION BECAUSE IT DOES FICTION BETTER MEANING THAT IT'S MADE UP AND IMAGINARY IN AN ARBITRARY WAY
Yes.

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Surprised nobody mentioned this one yet:

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>>50695949
Indeed, now please fuck off. You're the type of nigger cattle who watches video essayists hyperanalyzing Oblivion for 10 hours and fellating yourself on media literacy for understanding the THEMES and IDEAS of Teletubbies and how it does them better than Pound Puppies. Fuck off and stop samefagging to create cheap bait for someone who takes this seriously. It's just fiction, and it shouldn't be taken seriously in the first place. SMT or Darkstalkers doesn't even understand mythology or religion that well in the first place. At least try using classic literature to make your point instead of genre fiction slop.

>>50695988
>You're the type of nigger cattle who watches video essayists hyperanalyzing Oblivion for 10 hours and fellating yourself on media literacy
Stop projecting, please.

>It's just fiction
Fiction that is better than other fiction.

>SMT or Darkstalkers doesn't even understand mythology or religion that well in the first place
SMT is way better at understanding religion or fiction than Touhou. Darkstalkers is not, but it actually manages to handle the whole "relationship between humans and monsters" thing infinitely better.

>>50695988
>instead of genre fiction slop.
Touhou is a genre fiction slop which is why it's worth comparing to other genre fiction slop.

>>50695988
>SMT or Darkstalkers doesn't even understand mythology or religion that well in the first place

>implying that Touhou does

>>50696009
Touhou has a basic materialist understanding of mythology or religion but suffers because it genuinly fucking hates religion and hates itself for understanding mythology is fake.

kuso thread by a known schizo, do not reply

>>50696046
>He says: Replying.

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Hmm, one of those once-in-a-while kuso threads.

>>50696051
*farts in your thread*

>>50696056
>Once in a while
>On /jp/
Lol.

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>>50695921
OP, you can't just drop franchises that
>handle Touhou like themes and Ideas
without first saying what are themes and ideas of Touhou.
In my opinion Touhou is about seeking wonder in disillusioned place and times. By this, the comparison would be The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath and other Dreamlands related pieces by HPL, which is genre fiction as well. I would say that Touhou is less melancholic and more skeptical in comparison, with the action focused more on the community (how various actors interact with each other) than on individual's journeys and experiences. But that doesn't make it worse, it makes it more of a product of current times: we haven't just lost the ability to wonder, we've also deconstructed any hope for return to wondering while the progress isn't exactly fulfilling its own promises. Thus the Machiavellian take on many religious figures, thus the Outside World still invading the supposed haven for illusionary, thus people being jerks to each other.

>>50696080
>without first saying what are themes and ideas of Touhou.
I really don't feel those are up for debate.

>In my opinion Touhou is about seeking wonder in disillusioned place and times.
While I agree, I think it does so in a very Otaku-ish fashion. I don't remember the exact quote: But Touhou being very chuuni is inherently part of it's DNA and ZUN wouldn't want it any other way. That very much puts it add odds with stuff like Dream-Quest and most similar western works.

When it comes to this:
>In my opinion Touhou is about seeking wonder in disillusioned place and times.
I think Mother 3 is probably the most explicit. SMT has shades of it, especially the first one due to directly basing itself on Yukio Mishima going crazy and trying to coup the government. The difference being that SMT is even more cynical and skeptical of it than Touhou.

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>>50695988
Just because it's fiction it doesn't mean that it's immune to any form of criticism. Especially when sometimes it's either similar or inspired by said fiction.

>>50696005
>SMT is way better at understanding religion or fiction than Touhou.
>Darkstalkers is not, but it actually manages to handle the whole "relationship between humans and monsters" thing infinitely better.
>>50696013
>Touhou has a basic materialist understanding of mythology or religion but suffers because it genuinly fucking hates religion and hates itself for understanding mythology is fake.

Because Touhou was neither of those in the first place, so the accuracy between it's in-universe and real life mythos are irrelevant. It was mostly about a shrine maiden punishing those who disturbed or even destroyed her home, it was always been a vengeance story; protecting what's left of her from this monster infested world. Mima, Yuuka, Shinki, and even Remilia speaks louder when it comes to what the franchise means than 70% of it's supplementary material.
The franchise got changed over time (way early on). And that's fine, it's new direction were more fleshed out than before. If it weren't poorly written in the first place post-TD. It seems that ZUN did tried to take notes from any of these games (namely the idea of Darkstalkers used in UFO), but they either go nowhere or at worst they got botched, because ZUN is a hack writer who doesn't want to make the edgy university student mary sue wrong or at least face any form of serious consequences.

>>50696005
SMT ran too hard with the idea that all demons are gods are demons and you end up with issues like the Aesir being immortal demons when a whole wing of their pantheon was devoted to staving off mortality, even though the series itself demonstrated the line between humanity and demonhood is a gradient.

So this is the kind of thread altchan bros think is good...

>>50701218
And the amount of vtuber trash, worthless threads such as "Am I cute?" to soft-core pornography are the threads staple, amirite?

>>50697368
> Mima, Yuuka, Shinki, and even Remilia speaks louder when it comes to what the franchise means than 70% of it's supplementary material.
Well, that is basically WHY I made the Darkstalker comparison. While I think Puyo Puyo is a way more obvious influence, just minus the romantic bit as none of those characters think Reimu is their reincarnated dead wife, I do think Touhou has a lot in common structurally with fighting games.

>is a hack writer who doesn't want to make the edgy university student mary sue wrong or at least face any form of serious consequences.
Are you talking about Reimu, Maribel, or Marisa?

Either way, you are correct. The lack of actual consequences are a issue. There is a reason why I tend to call Reimu a spoiled bitch. Meanwhile, assuming Maribel really is Yukari... she certainly ends up becoming no better than the people she was trying to rebel against.

>>50701200
The whole thing is kind of a weird gradient and I honestly not sure how much I like the franchise attempts at explaining itself rather than the initial more subtext filled games. But, overall, I do still think it at least got a solid core to it's ideas that doesn't entirely hate itself like Touhou does or devolves into hyper autism fighting against hyper autism like Nasu stuff.

>>50695925
what "themes and ideas" does fate have besides vomiting pseudoscientific magicbabble, nonsensical characters and retconning everything fifteen times? you mean that it's a better exploration of the theme of terrible writing than touhou? in that case i agree

>>50702260
>While I think Puyo Puyo is a way more obvious influence
More like Sorcery Saga than anything.

>Are you talking about Reimu, Maribel, or Marisa?
I was talking about Yukari exclusively and used that theory as a joke, but you're cooking something.
>Meanwhile, assuming Maribel really is Yukari... she certainly ends up becoming no better than the people she was trying to rebel against.

>I do still think it at least got a solid core to it's ideas that doesn't entirely hate itself like Touhou does or devolves into hyper autism fighting against hyper autism like Nasu stuff.
NTA but not saying that SMT is perfect in anyway, especially in case of IV when it just rears it's ugly head in both understanding of nuance and mythos. But I do genuinely believe that most of their ideas were done better in execution than Touhou could.
Do mind telling me more on why you think it hates itself for exploring religion, mythology, etc

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>>50703211
The moment when it introduced; and I shit you not. Time travel in it's stories, it killed any investment for me, because I know for a microseconds that they will do whatever they want in the story without any reconsideration or consequences as long as it makes money.

Dishwashers.

>>50703211
>what "themes and ideas" does fate have besides vomiting pseudoscientific magicbabble, nonsensical characters and retconning everything fifteen times
Are you talking about the original? Because that one is pretty damn obvious: Heroism. Like, duh. I really hope I don't need to explain that. A lot of the spinoffs are pretty obvious as well. LIke, CCC is about love. Fate Zero is about the means justifying the end. Fate Grand Order is pretty all over the place, though most of the main story chapters do have pretty obvious themes.

As for the universe as a whole. Mostly the way it approaches themes of the world leaving behind magic, for good or bad, and the nature of human myths. Heroism also tends to stick around, because Fate Stay Night was very popular.

>you mean that it's a better exploration of the theme of terrible writing than touhou?
Fate, for all of it's flaws, works better than Touhou by virtue of actually being about something. If anything, it being rather loose with continuity is mostly BECAUSE the story is more thematically driven than similar nerd fair. Touhou touches on themes but doesn't really go anywhere, which is just lazy and bad.

Also the cast of most Fate works is actually likable.

>>50703341
>More like Sorcery Saga than anything
Eh, it depends. Like, look at the dialogue of Puyo Puyo Sun or the original and then compare it to the early Touhou games. It's pretty damn close.

>Do mind telling me more on why you think it hates itself for exploring religion, mythology, etc
When it comes to religion, I think it's fairly obvious. All religions in Touhou are bad, run by hypocrites, and generally shown to be inherently flawed. Taoism gets the most positive portrayal overall and even then Miko literally admits she's a hypocrite who really only believes it should apply to herself. Meanwhile every other god is a raging selfish jackass, well meaning but mostly powerless, or went out for a smoke and never came back.

As for mythology... That one is a bit more complicated. I just can't help but feel a certain level of resentment. The idea that mythological creatures are figments of human imagination isn't anything new, but with Touhou there's almost this rage about it. Like how realizing that truth kind of ruined the fun of everything and now all that is left is this naked boring reality. This is especially prevalent in stories about the outside world, but even inside Gensokyo it's a pretty repeated thing that Gensokyo and Youkai are just... kind of boring. They are banal basic bitches living a spoiled somewhat easygoing life with no real struggle. The human villagers and the fairies are the only people who seem to have something approaching real happiness, though in the case of the former that's more due to being terminally underwritten than any kind of real effort to show most human villagers as happy (Inb4: "No, spongebob. People being happy at a event being happy does not mean live in Gensokyo is fantastic.")

>>50714267
>When it comes to religion, I think it's fairly obvious. All religions in Touhou are bad, run by hypocrites, and generally shown to be inherently flawed. Taoism gets the most positive portrayal overall and even then Miko literally admits she's a hypocrite who really only believes it should apply to herself. Meanwhile every other god is a raging selfish jackass, well meaning but mostly powerless, or went out for a smoke and never came back.
It's mostly by the fact that he puts characters first, their backgrounds are just the cherry on top. Of course, it does not nullify any inconsistencies about that.

>...The idea that mythological creatures are figments of human imagination isn't anything new, but with Touhou there's almost this rage about it...
Absolutely fair. Especially with the writing, where it's mostly "nothing happens", due to the fact that it's the consequences from the former. The whole reason why we don't have much anything to do in the manga (and hell, even the games seems to be stagnant a lot) is because the writer's high priority is on "lore" rather than the characters themselves. He is such a huge fan of Yukari that he references her words as if it was important, despite never paying attention that it would conflict almost everything the franchise has to offer. Instead of remedying this idea by naturally integrating it to the story or scrap it all together. He shoehorned it by having characters; whom some might have nothing to do with the setting, saying the line. Without exploring this idea nor, dare I say, show the consequences of defying it's supposed rule. And no, the whole deal with the Fortune Teller is not that consequence, because Kosuzu does the same thing, yet she is spared. Human turning into Youkai is supposed to be the "greatest sin", yet we spare literal who's because yes. And even if it's all kosher, the cracks still show the moment you introduced UFO and Makai. Yet there are some people who say that this is the backbone of the setting. If that's the case, then it's even worse. Because you're basically saying that ZUN had this in mind since from the start.

And of course it's boring, telling the audience that these mythical creatures are all from your head in a series like Touhou is just bad writing. You're taking essentially 80% of it's casts any form of agency, because of a bullshit requirement to survive. It was the best when some of its origin (including youkai) are left to interpretation. It's one of reasons why the series became as big as it was, it was on it's peak before CoLR's asinine """"loredrops"""""