>>64880029
Aside from the problem they still need to magically shit out fuel for them then a Stug life was a more sensible choice.

>>64880029
Germany's problems were far deeper than just "build less heavy tanks". Once the US got involved there wasn't anything they could have done to win the war.

>>64880039
nah, when the US started sending troops there was still much room for victory. They lost in the moment the got absolutely dunked on by british counterintelligence and fucked up the D-Day defence. In the moment where the allies got their foothold in the normandy it was over

build LESS Stugs, build LESS heavy breakthrough tanks.

build MORE Panzer IV's with the long barrelled 75's

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>>64880029
the war was decided by the invulnerable factory hidden behind two biggest oceans on earth spamming shit 24/7 until everybody was dead. Exact armor and caliber millimeter values had little effect on this strategic outcome

>>64880032
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biofuel
They should have used more hungarian jews

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as he states in the video it wouldn't have won the war, but it would have made victory more difficult for the allies

>>64880095
As fuel?

>>64880029
Wouldn't have helped anyway. This amount of wasted steel would have been muuuuch more usefull to build strategic bombers, trucks, trains and railways.

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How about you watch the video 'tard?

>>64880029
They needed to capture oil and defend refineries to have any chance, even having F-16s and Abrams in 1938 wouldn't have helped if they couldn't secure fuel.

German AFV production peaked in December 1944. Without the other elements necessary for combat readiness, the vehicles were simply lined up in factory yards.
Stug also had problems with its incompetence in roles other than ambushes and infantry fire support.

Bully Raeder so the surface fleet don't gobble down between a fifth or a fourth of the fuel doing proportionally nothing.
>N..no you can't do that, the Navy will rebel.
Death warrants print themselves.

More fuel though is still not of much help with the logistic bottle necks in the East beyond Poland. Might increase productivity in the economy at the very least which no one will complain over.

In the counterfactual where Operation Typhoon succeeded in seizure of Moscow: Does it end the war in the East?
I'll lean towards the "Fatherland" by Robert Harris, eternal guerilla war to fight (Armies like Chinese warlords with rapid attrition and degradation the initial years).

U.K if it doesn't settle at the soviet practical capitulation?
Maybe it, or other allies receive the vast lend lease to enable the continued warfare in any means which inventively steer towards Germany is nuked.

StuGs irrelevant

Scrap the King Tiger Program. Funnel all R+D into Panther tank development.

>>64880109
Yes.

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>>64880029
no, what they need is to speed up the type XVIII development with hydrogen peroxide AIP,.
Walter actually proposed this back in early 1934. The kriegsmarine OKM was too far up their own asses so they actually went with keeping the ancient ww1 tech for the type I, II and VII instead,
>inb4 hydrogen peroxide is too dangerous to be used on a submarine
That's the same story with modern hydrogen fuel cell on AIP boats, which was deemed unsafe to operate, and type 212 also demonstrated how much of a game-changer it is.
Type XVIII, by design, would still retain a quarter to a third of the battery capacity of the Type XXI, while the Walter engine would give it the much-needed sprint speed for extended periods.
https://subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=138467
A sizeable type XVIII fleet in 1940-1941 would've wreaked havoc upon the royal navy by itself

>>64880039
The muh heavy thought needs redressed. You know what burns more fuel and uses more steel than a heavy tank?
Two tanks

>>64880029
The only reason they were even using stugs in the first place was because they did not have the logistical capability to build enough turrets for their hulls.
Which is to say they were fucked either way.

>>64880029
>another what if

>>64880029
Yes and they should have given them to finns just like in the pic. This would have allowed finns to advance and cut off the railway from Murmansk, which was one of the big lifelines bringing american lend lease to Moscow.

>>64880562
No way to make that many XVIII
Peroxide is not easy to get in the 40's.

>>64880075
>there was still much room for victory
How would there not being a western front stop every German city from being razed to the ground by bombers, first with incendiaries and later with nukes?

>>64880562
All of that assumes they could have actually gotten the engine to properly work at all, which no one ever did even postwar, so it's all very hypothetical, paper tank kind of stuff. I think earlier and better made XXIs is by far the better counterfactual, since they basically had a fleet of them just too late and too small, they had the range and armament to have a real impact on Battle of the Atlantic, and ASW technology was no where near being able to cope with their capabilities even in mid WWII. Their problems were mostly attributable to late wartime production issues, and they're realistically the only weapon Germany ever had at any point that has even a hypothetical chance of knocking England out of the war before America enters (and in good terms to the English), and thus being able to yeet Japan as an ally before Pearl Harbor and only need to fight it out with the USSR.

>>64880029
wars arent won on the battlefield so what would have gone on there is largely irrelevant

>>64880039
The best the Germans could have done is negotiate from a strong point in 1941 and NOT invade the Soviet Union. Unironically had Hitler ended the war then and not done a holocaust he would probably have gone down in the history books as a dictator but a shrewd and calculating one and Germans would have considered him a hero for restoring the Reichs honor as well as expanding its territories.

Would Hitler or Napoleon have been able to suddenly end wars at the height of their power? Their wars also likely served to keep financial problems under wraps.

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>>64885527
yeah, you're right on that one, the main problem with the Walter engine was the bottleneck in mass producing enough HTP. Allied bombing didn’t help, either.

>>64885583
>better made XXIs
I beg to differ. XXI was a cut-down XVIII, not the other way around. Pic related was already a combat-ready Walter boat.
Take the case of the larger Type XVIII: they were to carry 204 tons of HTP..
www.ubootarchiv.de/ubootwiki/index.php/XVIII

On average, using the hot process with a consumption of 2.35 kg/kWh ,
the capacity would've been about 204/0.00235 ≈ 86.8 MWh.
Other processes with lower HTP consumption were also tested, which would bring it closer, if not evenly matched to the modern AIP on the 212A SSK, purely in term of energy capacity.
Reminder: a 212A carries about 5 tons of hydrogen, for a total energy capacity of:
5000kg × 33.3kWh/kg × 60% (average BZM 34 efficiency) = 99.9 MWh.
Another plus of the HTP drive AIP is that it can also sprint at a very high speed, albeit limited to only a few hours. A high-speed noisy submarine isn't something special with mid-to-late Cold War ASW, as the case with the Alfas, but for 1940s ASW techs, the idea of a speedy U-boat that can shadow a convoy for weeks, engage, then quickly disengage using its AIP would put a sheer strain on the Lend-Lease, both for the Brits and the Soviets.

The Walter boat was to use a hybrid diesel-electric with LAB + HTP propulsion AIP. That's the very same system that still present on any modern SSK with AIP. If that's not revolutionary for you, I don't know what is.

TLDR: The OKM wasted a good four years dicking around with the idea of resurrecting the high-seas fleet in their wet dream, knowing there was no point in competing with the Royal Navy's surface fleet. Walter only received the commission to build the V80 tech demonstrator in 1939. The pre-war OKM unironically gave Göring a run for his money in the competition for who could screw up the war effort more spectacularly.

>>64880029
20 times more, maybe.

>>64885845
>I beg to differ. XXI was a cut-down XVIII
Less 'cut down' and more reimagined.
Basically to get similar performance without needing peroxide, and they did a pretty damned good job at it.
The issue is the initial models had fucked up superchargers, so their performance took a huge hit.

>>64880105
That kid is 36? Must have one of those Benjamin Button syndromes or something.

>>64885845
Kek. The German Navy pleaded with Hitler to postpone war until they built enough U-Boats. Had Hitler listened, Britain would have been starved into submission.

>>64885724
the uk never, ever, would've caved as long as the were friendly with the us government
and fdr's government was already not so subtly hostile to germany long before the latter officially declared war
bordering the ussr was also a war waiting to happen, there's nothing communists crave more than spreading their misery to other nations

>>64885845
>posts lots of specifications of an engine that never worked operationally and caught fire a lot
The Type XVIII was not functional. The smaller and less complicated Type XVII was never operational because the engines didn't work and caught fire all the time. The Germans were simply not capable of getting the technology to work well enough to field operationally in the time frame of WWII - but they could build working Type XXIs, and sort of did. The difference between our timeline and one where Germany was one generation ahead on submarines and built more of them is very plausible compared to a timeline where they get AIP to work well and reliably in, like, 1936 and churn out an operationally meaningful quantity of HTP boats in time to win the Battle of the Atlantic well before December 41.

>>64880029
CAN'T PLUG THE STUG

>>64880029
Stugs could be deleted on the run by basic bitch Shermans or T-34s (unlike heavier German tanks). That's the last thing you would want.
6 times more Panthers and maybe you'd have a chance (considering that you are losing on BOTH fronts). Except that you don't have neither the fuel nor the logistics or the necessary support personnel for that - you would need the panzer-grenadiers for that much more panzer divisions and you are already conscripting kids and pensioners as it is). To say nothing that IF the heavier German tanks were becoming a serious problem then ALL allies would switch to heavier tanks themselves just like that.

>>64880105
Here's the kid I was telling you about.

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>>64887956
>the engines didn't work and caught fire all the time
U-792, a XVIIA was rigorously trialed. Pic related is the trials log. By 10 October 44, they had already achieved relatively stable 20 knots for 265 minutes, per the logs. That's close enough to an acceptance test
The only fire incident was a dust collector from 12th August 44, where the trial likely didnt even involve walter engine, since it's a surface trial.
Source is Vom Original zum Modell, Uboottyp XVII: (Walter-Uboote), p. 29

Also, the hazards of HTP combustion were overblown. While it surely required safety measure, A catastrophic loss was hardly going to occur just because engine room mechanic Otto from Dummersdorf started farting uncontrollably after a higher-than-usual protein diet earlier in the day

>Der T-Stoff (H2O2 in 80% Konzentration) wurde eingehenden Erprobungen hinsichtlich Beschußsicherheit und seinem Verhalten gegenüber Stoßwellen unterworfen. Das verwendete Produkt zeigte sich hierbei unempfindlich. Es gelang lediglich durch Einsatz starker Sprengkörper in großer Menge und bei starker Verdünnung den Stoff bei einer Konzentration über 86,5 % zu einer Beteiligung an der Reaktion zu bringen. (Hierbei wurde nicht direkt gemessen, sondern die Wirkung der Zerlegung des für den Versuch benutzten Eisenrohres beobachtet, so daß ein eindeutiges Maß für die Explosionswirkung bisher nicht festliegt).
Source: Die schnellen Unterseeboote von Hellmuth Walter, p. 21

The main problem always was the HTP shortage. Had OKM recognized the potential of this design earlier, whether that would actually have led to accelerated HTP production capacity is debatable, then sure, that's a big assumption. But the Walter engine itself was functional, and HTP storage wasn't nearly as hazardous as many claimed

>>64880029
This thread again? Really?
No it wouldn't have helped, resources were to tight, equally in men, fuel and metal, and it's not like they could have simply summoned production capabilities out of the aether.
Stug maxxing is as retarded as pz4 maxxing.

>>64888457
>Stug maxxing is as retarded as pz4 maxxing
Not it's not, in fact it is far more practical and strategically wise. As anon mentioned upthread though, by 1942 Germany's problems were of far greater scope than solely what their armored force structure on the ground consisted of. As another anon said, not invading the USSR in 1941 would also have been a good idea.

>Really
back to plebbit

>>64880079
Wrong.

>>64889259
(just to add to what I posted here) Premise of the OP screencap "less heavy tanks"<--whatever that even means, is wrong. (I suspect it's the standard "durrr dey shouldn't have bilt TYYYYYgERS")
Again, Germany was giga-fucked and shot both its feet off by the end of 1942. But, after that time the only major armored vehicles in mas production should have been Panther(+Jagdpanther) and Stug IIIs. As I've posted on past threads, all Pz IV chassis and component production should have been relegated to SPGs and SPAAGs. Pz IV had a shitty suspension.

>>64880075
>>there was still much room for victory.
>losing ground in the East
>barely holding on in Italy
>Africa is gone
>manpower and supply issues fucking everywhere
>navy is fucked so starvation is back on the menu
>Allies are preparing to land in either France OR the Balkans
>Japan, who you can barely call an ally, is stuck in China and getting fucked in the Pacific

One day all of /k/ will understand that nothing Germany did or did not do after November 1942 mattered in any sense other than numbers of casualties and the postwar border between the Allies and USSR
If you are talking about something that happened after the Stalingrad encirclement, it fundamentally does not matter
And even total German victory at Stalingrad (plausible as of July 1942) just acts as a significant delay more than anything. The only semi-convincing argument I have heard (which prevents me from moving the time back further) is that a truly terrible famine would have afflicted the Soviets without access to the Caucasus, too great for the USA to make up with food shipments.

>>64880131
I will never get over the fact how hilariously grandiose and delusional Raeder’s naval domination fantasies were and how much resources he sucked up in an attempt to make them reality.

>>64889429
I’d even argue that Germans lost the war the moment that Britain’s morale didn’t break down immediately after the fall of France. To be fair, I can see why Germans thought that the Brits wouldn’t be stubborn enough to fight back after such a disastrous loss in France, but no matter, that was realistically their last shot at getting out of the war before US would eventually get pulled in and decisively fucking Germany under the sheer weight of American industry.

>>64889471
Germany lost WW2 on the 5th of December 1941 at the conclusion of operation Barbarossa when it failed to knock out the USSR. Without an Eastern front, all that's left is air battles and games in the Mediterranean between Germany and the UK. No decisive conditions for defeat. Without a "pearl harbour" level event or the USSR to absorb casualties, I don't see sufficient political incentive for the US to launch a bloody invasion of the continent.

>>64890010
What if Hitler didn't just declare war on the US? Would the Americans actively join the war in Europe with Japanese causing them trouble? Just sending materiel wouldn't be enough as the Brits didn't have enough boots to finish Germans off.

>>64890231
In the scenario of the USSR being out of the picture, it is plausible that Germany could avoid war with the US. This would have likely required a complete withdrawal from the Atlantic, where the two nations were de-facto already at war. That withdrawal is also unlikely, because it would be a concession by Germany that they will never be able to starve out the UK.

Without obvious provocation or even any continential allies, I doubt the US would rush to fight. Likely more of a long-term strategic rivalry. Hitler's declaration of war was one of his classic cases of escalation blunders.

>>64889471
>>64890010
There was still some hope if Japan could somehow be convinced to no drop its spaghetti all over US Territories. The Jap addiction to the Kantai Kessen, its own delusion that the US wouldn't get pissed off if you destroyed their shit hard enough, and their undue pride which was insulted by the fact that rival power wouldn't sell shit to them, made it just about impossible however.

>>64880029
More vehicles which will add up to requiring more fuel.
Panzer III and IV chassis were at their limits, you were not going to be able to upgrade them with more armor or larger guns.
More crews will need to be trained to operate, maintain and transport them.
StuGs were ideally given to artillery troops, not tankers. So you're now facing the decision of which types of crews you're going to train.

So, no, I don't think the trade-off were worth it. I think Germany took the correct and only approach it really could have: trying to create the best-performing individual units and training the crews to a high standard.
The issue was they could not produce those vehicles as the war dragged on (and some were just bad designs from inception) and crews had to be rushed into combat. But none of that would have been alleviated by producing obsolescent and handicapped armor.

>>64890231
The Roosevelt Admin was full of kikes and kike-lovers who really wanted to pick a fight with Germany but there was significant political opposition to them from all quarters and at all levels of government. Germany's one real hope would be for an openly white nationalist and anti-jew faction to gain more influence due to jews agitating for war. But that requires Japan to not be retards. And yes I blame the Japs for falling for the bait, just because a rival antagonizes you doesn't mean you have to stick your dick a known bear trap and rely and repeating the Russo-Japanese War in order to win despite the fact that everyone knows what you did to win that one and your naval doctrine is based on the work of a guy who also wrote the doctrine of the power you intend to fight. Decisive Battle doctrine was retarded.

>>64880079
Doubtful a long barrelled Pz IV would have worth all the troubles come with it. There's detailed plan on this matter
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/germany/panzer-iv-mit-schmalturm/
Likewise, the short L48 was adequate till the very last day against most common t34s and shermans. Except for the heavyweights like is-2, and the relatively few exotic models like m26 or m4a3e2 jumbo, both of them numbered no more than 500.

>>64885512
can finns do combined arms mobile warfare ? There's still a big gap in skills between fighting defensively in the swampy terrains with premade fortifications and actual well coordinated mobile warfare between ground and air elements.

>>64893105
Finns didn't really have any other tanks than Stugs and T34's for the whole war

>>64880029
Germany's only hope for survival would be to commit to developing long range chemical or biological weapons and negotiating a truce. Otherwise they just get nuked. Even if they can't hit Berlin making a division disappear at will is going to change things.

>>64890265
Germany was at a disadvantage even without the US getting involved and the US was already scaling up manufacturing/Lend Lease. If Japan had joined in the invasion of the Soviet Union during Barbarossa it may have stopped the transfer of divisions from the far east, but that may not have changed the overall outcome.

>>64880029
>mobile AT that don't get written off under the slightest change of tactical hands at the frontline, or collateral'd by random arty/mortars/whatever
>embedded SPGs to augment 'Fire Brigade' QRFs as required against breakthroughs

They were significantly cheaper. The only problem was having to backstop Pz. IV production with IIIs. Then Panthers being 30% less than IVs and trying to grope towards standardization.

>>64880079
>with the long barrelled 75'

What they had was adequate, the chassis' progressively getting overloaded couldn't accommodate that, hence Panther.

>>64880080
And the entire FDR administration infested with Soviet agents at the cabinet level down to the Manhattan Project, no thanks to British agents.

>>64888009
On the defensive, embedded mobile SPGs/AT > towed guns. And direct fire support more widely distributed in STUG infantry tanks could have been used, with the artillery overmatch in the East, and nonexistent air cover in the West.

>>64880029
If Germany built more StuG's there would have been many more instances of german crews abandoning their StuG's and surrendering or fleeing after they broke down or ran out of fuel.

The Soviet Union welcomed the Lend-Lease route via Murmansk, which was close to the front line, but in terms of volume and safety of navigation, the route via Vladivostok was the main route. If Japan had entered the war against the Soviet Union in the Far East, this cutoff would have been more significant than dividing the Red Army's forces.

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>>64880075
What you're actually saying is the Germans got dunked on because they ended all of their messages with "Heil Hitler".

Once the British realised this, they were able to crack the German codes much faster.

>>64893163
They did have Tabun nerve gas in substantial strategic stockpile. Problem is germs didn’t have anything to hit continental US to begin with.
V2 is merely a SRBM. Development of A9/A10 ICBM will definitely takes no less than 5 years, not months before it could be operational to hit US cities, and even then, they would have to be mass produced in thousands to even have a hope of hurting the US meaningfully.
Actual long range strategic bomber projects that could cross the Atlantic went nowhere, and without any long range escorting fighter, they would be a waste of valuable resources. Even modern day F-35 or NGAD couldn’t cross the Atlantic on internal fuels and then expected to engage in prolonged combats.
Germs was always in a hopeless situation from the beginning, both geographically and scarcity of resources

>>64887921
This post is correct. Hitler was very unprofitable for FDR and Churchill's financial backers and communists were very obviously communist by that point. It was either win or die as far back as the 30s.

>>64896159
>It was either win or die as far back as the 30s.
How about doing voluntarily what they were forced to do post-war. Just economically developing your country kek.

>>64888452
Germans couldn’t outproduce the allies in tonnage war. That wouldn’t help tips the war in their favor.

>>64895838
>they ended all of their messages with "Heil Hitler".
Pretty sure that was bullshit, but there other lapses in security routines that also fucked with them.

>>64897694
Also anti-submarine warfare methods got good.

>>64897699
It wasn't the only common phrase (known as a "crib" in codebreaking). Other cribs were "wetter" (weather), Oberkommando der Wehrmacht, naval commander sign offs, and the names of locations close to message origins. "HEILHITLER" was notably the most consistent crib because of its fixed location in messages, however.

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>>64889259
>not invading the USSR in 1941 would also have been a good idea.
war between them was inevitable. Vatniks were massing large invasion forces into the border regions well in 1940 and 41 looking for opportunities to stab krauts in the back. Its not a coincidence opening months of Barbarossa saw gigantic amounts of meat and metal shredded, including the largest encirclement in human history around the Kyiv region

Letting pidors mass up was suicide for the germans in the long run so all their "great sin" amounted to was being faster in the initiative. Which caught pidors completely flabbergasted as muscovia always thinks its the one to invade others. They still seethe about it to this day kek

Only insane thing about barbarossa was UK and US not taking advantage of the situation and letting Hitler kill Stalin. While they built up enough extra armies to defeat the overstretched and bled out germans when they were bogged down trying to consolidate pic related monstrosity. As a result WW2 ended up being objectively half assed with westerners behaving like Hitler is the modern equivalent of Satan while they themselves were allied with a tyrant regime that was even worse then the germans

>>64895585
see >>64880080
cutting off the pacific would have meant increased tonnage through murmansk and iran. nothing more. US geography and vatnik simpery was just so fundamentally broken

Can't even imagine what they could have done. Since what they needed were hardcore isolationists in power in the US. Which means getting rid of FDR and his red plague simps at minimum. With UK there might have been a chance to make the stalemate official post 1940 france. By capturing the british army in dunkirk, not wasting precious pilots and naval crews on pissing off the british populace with terror bombing/island siege and offering the captured soldiers in exchange for a cease fire. Even Churchill might have been forced to at least negotiate.

>>64899248
Stalin and Hitler had a deal to not attack each other. Regardless of the region for the border troops, Germany shouldn't have struck first.

>>64899248
>wall of delusional grade school plebbitext
There is such a thing as strategic discernment. Nazi regime was bereft of it

>>64899665
>strategic discernment regime bereft
Well look at you, using the big boy words.

>>64880029
There is almost no situation where Germany wins. Worse case scenario the allies just drop the bomb on Germany.

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>>64899286
>Stalin and Hitler
>a deal
>two thieves carving up the booty make a deal to secretly totally not plan to backstab each other
this is like trusting whatever shit plops out of monkes mouth and taking it seriously

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>>64880039
It was already over in 1940, when they were unable to defeat RAF.

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>>64880029
What if Germany just built giant robots, because that's about what it would take.

>>64899286
>bro just let the communists get ready to take over Europe bro
Are you retarded?
You retarded nigger.
Kill yourself, retard. You suffer from retardation.
Retard.
Also nigger.

>>64900662
They raped the RAF over France, doing so over Britain with all the advantages in favor of the defender wasn't realistic.

>>64900690
>doing so over Britain with all the advantages in favor of the defender wasn't realistic.
>inb4 but then why did they try it?
Because
>They raped the RAF over France

>>64899701
>i-i'm a brainlet with no response

>>64900671
Hell yeah

>>64880105
I've never seen such a young man!

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>>64880029
More Stugs would have helped because they are cool as hell, and cool things are ontologically good.

>>64880039
SPBP
American industry won WWII.

>>64899701
Shut the fuck up, kid. The only thing Hitler did wrong was to lose but the war, and that anon is correct.

>>64899248
>Only insane thing about barbarossa was UK and US not taking advantage of the situation and letting Hitler kill Stalin
And then all the manpower fighting for Stalin would fight for Hitler instead. I dont think you understand russians too well, they'll fight for anyone holding the biggest gun

>>64880029
Germany did not lose because of its tanks OP, or its planes, or its ships, or for whatever reason you want to speculate about. You could have replaced every single armored vehicle in the German inventory with a fully functional Abrams-X, and given Germany the same capability to produce replacement crews, spare parts, fuel, ammunition etc that it had for its original tank fleet - and they would still have lost.

Stop thinking about war like it's a video game. That's retarded.

>>64901758
>germans
>trusting pidors with anything resembling a military
you do read what you write before posting? There was only one fate waiting for vatniks in the german empire and that was a slave caste for manual labor only. Vlasov crew was the closest thing you ever got and they had a grand total of....200-300k soldiers

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>>64899665
>nuh-uh. It was our grand super secret strategy to shoot ourselves in the foot le plebbit man!
its okay nigger. We know you gullible idiots in the west fucked up big time.

Funny thing now that zigger cancer is on full display in 4k quality the sentiment that Barbarossa should have been allowed to succeed is spreading even in modern discourse

>>64897694
Sure, but the aim was to interdict convoys bound for the UK. Limiting lend-lease routes to Iran and the Far East would also affect the Soviets significantly.
In hindsight, even in the most autocratic system, public opinion still matters a lot. While it would be logical to allocate more resources to Uboat development, news from any wolfpack successful attack would hardly be impactful or accessible to a common Klaus that was spending most of the time in bomb shelters than outside. The burning wrecks of a B17 or Soviet prisoners would have much more positive effects on the public, even if a successfully waged Uboat war would have had much more strategic impact.
>>64897706
In terms of ASW weapons, not even close to modern ASW. While from 1943, mid-Atlantic gaps were closed with airbases and CVE, Allied hunter-killer groups were still relying on depth charge and spigot mortar. Walter boat, which has both a silent electric motor for creeping and a Walter engine for extended sprints.For that, you'll need a modern ASW torpedo. A reminder, the rule of thumb is an ASW torpedo must both dive fast and go twice as fast as the sub to catch it. Take the case of the Alfa; at 41 knots, it wasnt until ADCAP and Spearfish that NATO finally had something to catch them.For the Walter boat at 24-25 knots, until early 70s with mk 48 that the USN finally had the first dedicated ASW torpedo that could go at 50+ knots (Mk 45 was trash, unless the idea of a short-range ASW torpedo that relied on a huge nuclear blast doesnt sound retarded enough for you). Let's not pretend that the Cold War wasnt filled with the same paranoia and overexaggeration of adversary tech.
And,Walter engine will definitely create plenty of problems for WW2 sensors.
>The wake of submerged submarines that continuously discharged CO2(eg submarines with the Walter propulsion system) provided excellent concealment and deception.
Source:www.scribd.com/document/545824565/Gabler-Sumarine-Design-2000#pageNum:62

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Also, at high submerged speed, propeller noise was actually absorbed by the CO2 exhaust. So have fun tracking a high-speed target where its propeller noise has been dampened. And the bubbles will fuck over active sonar, too. Early-days MAD was also nowhere near reliable enough.

>Heller und Sachs waren ratlos. Auch bei späteren Messungen mit U 793 bei der Abhorchstelle Nexö wurde der gleiche Effekt festgestellt: Bei höheren Turbinen-Fahrtstufen statt der Schraubengeräusche nur noch ein unklares schnaufendes Geräusch. Dabei hatte man vorher angenommen, daß das Schraubengeräusch bei der hohen Drehzahl von 400-500 U/Min das Turbinengeräusch glatt übertönen müßte. Eine Schall-dämmung der Turbinenanlage erschien deshalb nicht erforderlich. Es stellte sich schließlich heraus, daß der Propellerschall durch den achtern austretenden CO2-Schleier stark absorbiert wurde.
Source: Vom Original zum Modell, Uboottyp XVII: (Walter-Uboote), p. 34

Not to mention, DE and corvette that made up a good proportion of a typical convoy screening would be useless since they could only make 15 knots for old submersible VII and IX ASW.
XXI boats, as good as it once was, largely benefited from work on XVIII, both in hydrodynamically optimized hull shape and internal layouts. XXI is essentially a Type XVIII with its closed-cycle turbine, more or less a 1st gen AIP stripped off.
AIP, even now, still possesses superior endurance over more conventional diesel-electric designs. It was the same with lead-acid back then, and it remains true for more recent lithium-ion ones. It's not like worst korean have any trouble building more LIBs. Even Japs, who went with diesel-electric using LIBs and are lagging behind in AIP, are also kicking the nuke powered idea around.
>https://breakingdefense.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/13/2022/07/IMG_1161-1536x814.jpg

>>64903068
They would be raped by the Soviets even harder if they focused on their boats more.
The Germans had second-best everything: Air-force and navy (both behind the Western allies) and land force (behind the Soviets). You cant conquer the world if you are second-best across the board.

>>64903055
The problem with all of this is that the Walter Engine didn't work.

>>64901993
>cope continues
Fuckup was AH that has no one to blame but himself, preening as the brilliant WWI strategist he was
Anyway as always and has already been mentioned upthread, WWII was a scale and breadth of logistics that outstripped anything prior in human existence and the Axis wasn't prepared for that. Japan made overall the same mistakes

Microwave radar could detect even objects exposed above the water, such as periscopes and snorkels. When such radar became available on aircraft, the hunt for U-boats became one-sided.

>>64903084
Since when did a tank ever need h2o2 as fuel ? Much less supplies to britain, less chance of overlord.
And Lend lease route through Iran and the far east will cost time and resource just to get them to the front.
>rape harder
bit of a shame that 13 mil dead soviet couldn’t get there to rape more, if you must.
Though if you can stop memoryholing, the birth rate in several large occupied soviet cities actually increased by a third despite the Soviet were losing manpower in order of magnitude during 1941-1943. Bit stale to go on about rape, though.
>>64903092
It did, very low effort bait there.

>>64903187
>bbbut - we raped more!!!
The rape was just a figure of speech, but thanks for the remainder.

>>64880029
>How could we make our slavery-raping 20th century enterprise succeed?
It was futile from the beginning if you ask me.

>half decent ww2 thread with some interesting details starts devolving into another shitflinging fest again
guess i shouldnt've thought so highly of a vietnamese rice brewing anonymous imageboard

>>64903281
I was being serious. The Nazi Germany rejected all modern socio-economic discoveries - which the western civilization was evolutionary developing for literally millennium - and they thought that they would succeed by going monke again. It doesn't' work like that. They were WAY too short to go against this current.

>>64903289
>Nazi Germany wanted to return to monke
What sort of hebrew nonsense is this?

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>>64905234

>>64905585
>Shekel Steinberg has investigated the Germans and as expected they did every single fetish and weird scenario that jews like making up in their heads
>Total cohencidence though

>>64905621
maybe some meds would help

>>64880029
It might have helped if German Commander-in-Chief had studied some military history instead of architecture and racial sciences - the basics of proper maneuver warfare and the strategy of defense included.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H1WMH24_qI

>>64903289
not saying you, dimmy.
But this thread could do with less mass orgy or jooooos shitflinging, imo.

>>64905999
Mmm yes the US military has been so successful because of a president's knowledge of military strategy

>>64906030
He didn't try to micromanage his troops. Neither did Stalin btw, he barely interfered with his commanders' decisions in later part of the war.

>>64905650
I agree, jews often have severe mental issues which drugs might be able to help.

>>64903068
DE ?

>>64906594
>>64906594
NTA, it's destroyer escort
can kinda see how a fast submarine could've done the allies nasty in more secluded ATO.
SH4 monsun has this boat, and the tactic against allies convoy is essentially BnZ. The drive itself may be extremely noisy, but with a flank speed of 24kts, escorts really cannot do much other than accelerate past washout speed to follow you. Even if they somehow are all over you, depth charges do not fall fast enough to get a hit.
You can usually get 4-5 patrols out of h2o2 fuel before having to return to port, with good GRT tally bagged.
>t. have some clue by being a SH3, 4 oldfag

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>>64880095
>>64880109
>>64880395
>i must escape ze german gas
>NO, MIKLOS YOU ARE ZE GERMAN GAS!
und then, miklos was ze german gas

>>64903187
>It did, very low effort bait there.
They didn't. Their engines caught fire all the time and were broken in port as often as they worked. No HTP powered submarine has ever completed an operational patrol, because it was a dangerous and unreliable technogy. Even using HTP for torpedoes has led to the loss of two submarines.

>>64908356
>still yapping uncited nonsenses
But here’s your consolation (you), in case you couldn’t come up with anything better
>Their engines caught fire all the time
Source?
>No HTP powered submarine has ever completed an operational patrol, because it was a dangerous and unreliable technogy.
HTP supplies shortage, for the first part.
Otherwise, source?
>Even using HTP for torpedoes has led to the loss of two submarines.
Irrelevant for even comparing a whole boat with sufficient space for better storage against a torpedo.

>>64880105
>model
>balding

>>64880029
Germany needed more trains and trucks and roads. Germany needed more of every resource, including people.

>>64911905
They needed fuel(s). To run Barbarossa, North Africa and other expansive campaigns.

>>64906035
>later part of the war.
why don't you tell everybody what he was doing in the first part of the war when he didn't think he was winning

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>>64880032
>Aside from the problem they still need to magically shit out fuel for them

The Germans had plenty of fuel until the US bombed the oil fields in Romania and the Soviets later finished them off.

For the cost of the 1354 Tiger I built, the Germans could have had 4500 Stug III, a FAR better return on the investment.

>>64914903
All those stugs need way more crew...

>>64913247
Stalin started to listen to the professionals just _before_ the Stalingrad encirclement. Hitler believed that he is better qualified than them from the beginning to the end. And certainly when he thought that he was still wining - before the battle of Moscow.
It was the fact that they were having their asses handed to them that made Stalin reconsider in fact.

>>64914910
btw. the British were initially struggling in Normandy and one of the reasons might have been faulty ideas of Montgomery about his tank-infantry doctrines. And the British were saved because of their frivolous attitude about doctrines in general which let them overpass them where they didn't make much sense in particular circumstances. As much as I like Monty but even he wasn't without flaws - but at least he wasn't stubborn enough to try to enforce things which evidently didn't work. Hitler would have none of it.

>>64880029
Germany cannot outproduce the Allies and especially not the US, so at best maybe you make the defeat take long enough that the US finishes the atom bomb in time to drop it on Germany.

>>64915690
Germany's military production was roughly on par with that of the UK. Let alone the US and the USSR.
Talk about delusions of grandeur.

>>64915746
>Talk about delusions of grandeur.
Idk, the soviets started barbarossa with like 23k AFVs and lost ca. 21k. Sure production in '41 was 6.6k vs the german 3.6k but that wouldn't seem that favorable with their need to replace the losses.
Of course then British and American lend-lease started helping.
But it probably didn't seem all that delusional at the start of barbarossa.

>>64915992
They came within a cunt hair of de facto collapsing the Soviets, but their retarded behavior in occupied territory and their overextension screwed them.

Had they actually treated conquered Soviet satellites well, things might've gone worse for the Russians. Even with all the Jew pogroms, since eastern Europeans hate the fuck outta Jews.

>>64916031
Actually I also think that it was doable as not much more was needed to overcome the Soviets. But they lost as soon as the war has turned into an attrition one. They shouldn't have disregarded the gommies for whom a strong military was basically the only point of existence.

>>64899722
this

>>64914903
>until the US bombed the oil fields in Romania
Tidal Wave was a failure though

>>64899722
Well yeah, imo most scenarios would have to hinge on the UK and US havinga different leadership.
Without western support the axis could have probably taken out the soviets, eith a cost.
The other main issue for them was british stubbornness. If they could have negotiated a peace with them, possibly with retreat from France and binding the latter into an economic union as originally planned, the US would have lacked the staging ground to wage a war.
But as I said mainly dependant on a differenc in allied leadership and not german capabilites or decision making.

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>>64914903
>>64914906
>All those stugs need way more crew...

There were plenty of Germans in WWII.

"What was the size of the german army in WWII?
13.6 million to 18 million personnel
The size of the German army during World War II, known as the Wehrmacht, varied throughout the conflict. At its peak, it is estimated that the Wehrmacht mobilized between 13.6 million to 18 million personnel. For specific operations, such as Operation Barbarossa in June 1941, around 3 million troops were available, including allies."

>>64916410
>Tidal Wave was a failure though

Any loss in fuel production was a win, just because the bombing didn't utterly destroy Romanian oil production, doesn't mean it was a failure.

The point still stands: 4500 StugIII would have been much more effective than 1300 Tigers.

>>64916563
>There were plenty of Germans in WWII
Lol, lmao even.
Considering all territories in 1939, and not just germany proper, they had a population shy of 80 million.
Women made up slightly more than 50%.
So ca. 39 million men. Of those over a third were below 15 or over 65 and outside of what was generally considered working or military age.
So you have roughly 24 million left, and roughly 18 of those aww already involved in the armed forces.
Were are they supposed to take anymore men? From the factory workers building the StuGs? Maybe from the farmers producing the crops that feed the army?

There is a reason why the volkssturm was a thing and it wasn't because they were drowning in manpower.

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>>64916031
>Had they actually treated conquered Soviet satellites well

lol, the krauts were so stupid and greedy that when _their own Hungarian allies_ wanted to build the Panther, the Germans insisted on outrageous licensing fees, forcing Hungary to design and build it's own (arguably better) version but by the time it was available, the war was pretty much lost.

Meanwhile, the US was literally giving out free shit to its allies, from ships to planes, tanks, guns, boots, fuckloads of food and even shipping entire factories across the planet to Russia.

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>>64916633
> 18 million troops
> somehow can't find 18 thousand for Stug crews

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_divisions_in_World_War_II

>>64916675
All of those 18 million are already part of something else, that only means they will have to gut existing units which are then short on men. This is barely better than taking a loan to pay of interest on an existing one.

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>>64916695
>All of those 18 million are already part of something else

The Germans deployed 100 infantry divisions alone for Barbarossa, are you really suggesting there wasn't enough manpower available?

>>64916735
As I said, .anpower which you only get by gutting existing units.
A '41 style assault gun battery had 126 man for 7 StuGs. At 4500 StuGs that's 81.000 men or almost 5 infantry divisions at organizational strength.
It's not like you can turn every grunt into a tank crewman, observer, truck driver etc. either so you can't just siphon of raw manpower.
And then you need to consider all the logistical support units to suppliers and move those batteries.
Well and also the need produce the trucks, cars, armored ammo carriers and half trucks for those batteries.

>>64916979
But anon, when I click the "Build StuG" button the new StuG just pops out, fully crewed and already supported by whatever econ units I have in play. Clearly the Germans could've just done the same thing as me, then they would have won (I am very smart, after all).

>>64916675
>>64916979
>>64917301

13th Panzer Division (previously 13th Infantry Division, 13th Motorized Infantry Division; later Panzer Division Feldherrnhalle 2)
14th Panzer Division (previously 4th Infantry Division)
15th Panzer Division (previously 33rd Infantry Division; later 15th Panzergrenadier Division)
16th Panzer Division (previously 16th Infantry Division)
17th Panzer Division (previously 27th Infantry Division)
18th Panzer Division (later 18th Artillery Division)
19th Panzer Division (previously 19th Infantry Division)
24th Panzer Division (previously 1st Cavalry Division)
26th Panzer Division (formerly 23rd Infantry Division)
116th Panzer Division Windhund (previously 16th Infantry Division, 16th Motorized Infantry Division, and 16th Panzergrenadier Division)
Panzer Division Feldherrnhalle 1 (previously 60th Infantry Division, 60th Motorized Infantry Division, and Panzergrenadier Division Feldherrnhalle)
Panzer Division Feldherrnhalle 2 (previously 13th Infantry Division, 13th Motorized Infantry Division, and 13th Panzer Division)
Etc.

>>64880029
i bet a t-34 was cheaper and easier to make. one of the design principles of the t-34 and its engine was being able to use low-grade steel to reduce waste, which the germans struggled with a lot during the war.

>>64919456
What the hell are you talking about? The T-34's engine was made out of aluminum

>>64919467
yeah but they wanted the option to make it from steel and really bad one at that. same with the tank.

>>64919476
No? The T-34 was intended to be built to relatively high standards.
It's just that, you know, with all the corruption and Germans running into the country they ended up fucking it up.

>>64918203
First of all, this is still them taking manpower away
Secondly, it isn't that simple. Take the 16. Infanterie-Division, which got "split" into the 16th Motorized and the 16th Panzer.
The 16th Panzer Division got their tank regiment from the 1st Panzer Division, which didn't get them replaced.
Infantry regiments 64 and 79 were redesignated to Schützen-Regiment and given to the 16 Panzer.
The 16. Schützen-Brigade came from the Schützen-Regiment 4 of the 1. leichte Division.
The remaining parts of the unit came from the 16. Infanterie-Division, with the exception of Panzerjäger-Abteilung 16 which was newly formed.

Then we have the 16. Infanterie-Division (motorisiert), which got its staff, signal, anti-tank and supply unit form the disbanded 228. Infanterie-Division.
The 228th and parts of the Sicherungs-Regiment 1 were also used to form one of the Regiments, 156, with the other coming from the OG 16th infantry just like the Kradschützen.
Recon came from the disbanded 311. Infanterie-Division and the artillery and pioneers were newly formed.

Those 2 reorganized divisions already include newly formed units, 2 regiments taken from existing units and 2 disbanded divisions.
It is also noteworthy that the tank crewman in this whole mess came from an existing tank division, the 1st Panzer, which never had that regiment replaced.
So yeah it isn't that simple.

Even the 116th Windhund got their tank crews from the 1st Panzer and the 179. Reserve-Panzer.