>>25214473
wouldn't be odd if this was a dialectical writing group instead?

>>25214473
no contradictory can exist in isolation as contradictory. no reason why it cant exist of itself.

>>25214910
That isn't a postulate in dialectics. It is proven, Mao is just describing what is proven. Dialectics is a form of *process philosophy* (not as a postulate but a point of proof), which holds that all change is resolution of contradiction (not as a postulate but a point to prove).

>>25214473
It’s a mistake to conflate Marxist dialectic and Hegelian dialectic, the two traditions are very different. Marx rejects Hegel in no uncertain terms and explains why he does so. Not to overstate things because of course Marx was deeply influenced by the Logic but still they are totally divergent in terms of what dialectic means (idealism vs materialism) and how it should be employed (a priori vs a posteriori to put it simply). Don’t be misled by pseudo intellectual Marxists who read Marx back into Hegel. Another thing - why does Hegel think ontology is purely dialectical? Why does he bracket the either/or into the realm of appearance? It isn’t enough to say ‘look, you can see it work.’ As Aristotle said of Platonic definition by division ‘at every step one can ask, “why?”’ What Hegel’s doing is strange, you need to be able to answer this if you want to do a group. Academic question though, no one will participate.

>>25214940
>which holds that all change is resolution of contradiction
This is trivially true and it isn’t what Hegel was saying.

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>>25214473
> The fact is that no contradictory aspect can exist in isolation. Without its opposite aspect, each loses the condition for its existence. Just think, can any one contradictory aspect of a thing or of a concept in the human mind exist independently? Without life, there would be no death; without death, there would be no life. Without ‘above’, there would be no ‘below’, without ‘below’, there would be no ‘above’. Without misfortune, there would be no good fortune; without good fortune, there would be no misfortune. Without facility, there would be no difficulty; without difficulty, there would be no facility.
When I do x I am doing x, not y. If a thing is z it is z and not !z. The issue is that Hegel thinks this sort of thinking is secondary, but again why? And is it? None of your decisions are ‘dialectical’, they are always either/or. You have to step back from Hegel’s system and ask these basic questions then see how he would answer them to realize how retarded the whole thing is.

>one week to read three chapters
kek and check

>>25215044
Checked

Marxism-Leninism posits ontology as purely dialectical as well, but thanks for your insights otherwise.

>>25215057
It is definately what Hegel is in fact saying

>>25215066

Checked

You have to remember that dialectics here isn't a dogma, it is something Hegel works very hard to prove. Marx and Marxists later critique what they considers holes in Hegel which almost completely come down to idealism versus materialism.

>>25215145
I will be impressed if people finish three pages in the week, three paragraphs even. People can go on for hundreds of pages of threads about philosophy on this board but actually reading it is a ponderous ordeal

>>25214473
>dialectics
LMAO

What's it like believing in pseudo-intellectual flat earth nonsense that doesn't describe reality?

You people are the flat earthers of philosophy and science.
You belong on /x/.

>>25214940
>Mao is just describing what is proven.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>25215195
>Marx and Marxists later critique what they considers holes in Hegel which almost completely come down to idealism versus materialism.
and then you realize both authors were extremely retarded
Marx wasn't even an actual materialist. Marx and marxists deny humans have biological evolutionary instincts and instead believe in base and superstructure gibberish.

>>25215265
You have down syndrome

>>25215308
You're a marxist and/or hegelian, you have down's(it's down's, not "down" you brainlet) syndrome by default
enjoy being schizo and believing a bunch of word salad that doesn't describe reality
you have to go back
>>>/x/

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>>25215330
>t.

>>25215265
Marx hardly talked about base and superstructure. Evolution though is extremely in keeping with dialectical theory

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>>25215332
Literally all communists incels look like that.
don't even try to deny it lol
All totalitarians are bitter losers that will never have sex.

>>25215362
>Marx hardly talked about base and superstructure.
So what? It was one of the core parts of his belief system.
>Evolution though is extremely in keeping with dialectical theory
No it doesn't. It complete conflates with economic classes being the primary drivers of society.

>>25215388
It was core in basic formulation, not in the reductionist sense you seem to imagine it though, which seems to be sort of proximate economic theory of each and every individual human behavior the way evolutionary psychology tries to do that with evolution

It doesn't conflict with that at all unless you are subscribing to a very old version of evolution which reduces biologically down to arbitrary individual beings instead of superorganisms, which each biological individual is. And the human individual as a social invention, is also obviously a product of society for its own purposes, since he not created purely by biological birth but through advanced language. This is why Darwin, for instance, could not grasp the evolutionary explanation of why a bee would destroy itself to save the hive; that makes absolutely no evolutionary sense from a 19th Century reduction of it to individual beings. But it makes perfect sense with how we understand evolution today

>>25214473
Do you people ever read critiques of this garbage?
I doubt you people have the mental capacity to realize you're in a religious cult.

>>25215388
>belief system

>>25215416
>not in the reductionist sense
what do you mean?
>It doesn't conflict with that at all unless you are subscribing to a very old version of evolution which reduces biologically down to arbitrary individual beings instead of superorganisms
That is evolution though. What the fuck is a superorganism?
>And the human individual as a social invention
Humans aren't purely created by their environment though.
>since he not created purely by biological birth but through advanced language.
What the fuck are you actually saying? I doubt you actually know.
>This is why Darwin, for instance, could not grasp the evolutionary explanation of why a bee would destroy itself to save the hive
Really? That's common sense. Did Darwin actually get confused by this or something. Source?
You can be biologically programmed to be altruistic and it can be evolutionarily beneficial. Nothing weird about that. It's not like the bee was purely socially conditioned into being altruistic. It saw things happening and it's evolutionary instincts kicked in.
>that makes absolutely no evolutionary sense from a 19th Century reduction of it to individual beings
It does though. The altruism results in hive being saved and thus the DNA can replicate for future generations.
>But it makes perfect sense with how we understand evolution today
What does this have to do with base and superstucture claiming class is the primary or even the only driver of social phenomenon? If this were true, then instincts wouldn't exist and humans would be blank slates basically and their behavior is determined purely by class interactions or whatever, which we all know is bullshit.

>>25215428
>>belief system
That's pretty much what hegelianism and marxism is.
They're religions and their believers act the same way christian fundamentalists do.

>>25214473
The funniest thing about dialectical materialism is that Class Struggle theory is a very reductionist approach to historical analysis, but is the de facto Marxist interpretation of history. Wallerstein's World Systems Theory, on the other hand, is one of the most sophisticated historical analysis frameworks to ever exist and an exemplary case of dialectics in practice, but almost no Marxist uses it or even recognizes it. Even during their later days, Marx and Engels sought to rectify the simplicity of Class Struggle, but its wholesale adoption has persisted to the present day. It can even be argued that today, mainstream historical analysis with its emphasis on economic history is closer to what Marx and Engels envisaged history should be as a discipline rather than the supposed historical materialism followed by modern Marxists. This says a lot about Marxism imo.

>>25215461
Topkek

>>25215442
>That's pretty much what hegelianism and marxism is.
>They're religions and their believers act the same way christian fundamentalists do.

True. Marxism is the last great religion.

Why do the "classes" need to be the capitalist vs workers, why aren't they the state vs the people or something?

>>25215442
As in the sense that you seem to take it, that economics explains biology

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superorganism

Humans are certainly not purely created by their environment, and the idea that they are is addressed extensively by Mao in On Contradiction in which he contrasts dialectics with environmental determinism of liberal materialism

I mean your self-concept requires language created by a society of humans over the course of thousands of years. You manufactured your idea of you out of human-crafted concepts and "you" as your identity could not exist otherwise, you would kust be a smart ape
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-concept

I am not talking about merely altruism but killing yourself without reproducing to benefit those who do reproduce.

>hive
Exactly, yes, now you see: here evolution is obviously collectivist, and that is my point.

Tabula rasa is a doctrine of liberal materialism, not Marxism

>>25215461
Wallerstein's thesis comes from Lenin's theory of imperialism

>>25215489
Because the state in capitalism exists for the benefit of the capitalist class. That is its function
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft%E2%80%93Hartley_Act

>>25215262
>flat earthers
Rent free

>>25215508
Capitalism and Liberals live in your head rent free, son.
You people are mentally retarded as well as being insane. Your ideology makes zero sense and doesn't explain reality.
You're basically flat earthers.

>>25215495
>Because the state in capitalism exists for the benefit of the capitalist class.
Then why does the working class benefit far more in capitalist states than socialist ones?
Really makes you think, donnit?

>>25215639
You think the working class benefits in developing world under capitalist states where death squads wipe out unions? Thr working class only benefits in capitalist states in the west because they engaged in violent agitation until the state compromised with them for fear of revolution

>>25215494
>that economics explains biology
I never implied this and nobody believes this.
>Mao in On Contradiction
Ah yes the guy that murdered tens of millions of chinese people. I'm sure his book isn't filled with schizo delusions.
>in which he contrasts dialectics with environmental determinism of liberal materialism
Don't you people believe all human behavior is the result of classes and their interactions or whatever?
Doesn't believing in dialectics imply instincts do not exist?
>You manufactured your idea of you out of human-crafted concepts
What? That's retarded. My idea of me comes from many years of evolution. It's just how the brain works. If you placed me in a different society that tries to brainwash people that the individual doesn't exist, I would still feel like an individual due to my instincts.
>as your identity could not exist otherwise
lol
holy shit you people actually believe this HAHAHA
>I am not talking about merely altruism but killing yourself without reproducing to benefit those who do reproduce.
My argument about the bee having the instincts to off itself still apply.
>here evolution is obviously collectivist
Evolution CAN be collectivist. Humans have both individualistic and collectivistic instincts. I don't see why this is so weird to you.
>Tabula rasa is a doctrine of liberal materialism, not Marxism
You people essentially believe in a modified version of it. For all human behavior to be determined by classes, instincts have to not exist.

It must be so draining and horrible to be a marxist.
I'm not glad I'm not in the cult.

>>25215645
>developing world under capitalist states
Economic systems are not a socialism/capitalism binary.
The countries with the freest markets for the longest period of time are the ones with the most development and highest living standards for workers.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/coep.12010

>where death squads wipe out unions
Unions have basically zero to do with the conditions of workers.
America built it's middle class in an era where unions were like 5-10% of the workforce.

>compromised
This cope from you religious cultists is retarded. Whenever the state tried to compromise, things got worse like in the great depression, a depression created by government intervention.
Or like with the war on poverty, poverty has increased since then.

>>25215653


Dialectics includes how instincts develop. Fight/flight for example is obviously a dialectic, you have two completely contradictory instincts. I think you are mixing up historical materialism with environmental determinism, and to correct that confusion I recommend On Contradiction, by Mao

>If you placed me in a different society that tries to brainwash people that the individual doesn't exist, I would still feel like an individual due to my instincts
I don't know how you would feel but it wouldn't be "you", it would be someone else. But yes your consciousness would still create an individual IF that society had language

>Humans have both individualistic and collectivistic instincts. I don't see why this is so weird to you.

It's not! But important yo remember that the individual predicated on language, is a tool for collectivism. Society invented the individual because it allows for greater flexibility in problem solving and creativity.

>>25214473
>What exactly is "dialectic
mental illness

>>25215661
Free markets are, overall, reflective of a higher stage of advancement. Mercantilism and protectionist capitalism, are still capitalism, but obviously reflective of a lower stage of productive advancement

Unions comprising a small portion of the workforce is irrelevant since their victories are the only reason non-unionized or mostly non-unionized companies raise their standards: it's in order to compete for labor with unions, OR to prevent their own workers from following suit and unionizing due to how much better unions have it

The Depression was caused by the Stock Market Crash of '29 and mostly remedied by state intervention

>>25215639
In 1773 Captain Cook became the first modern explorer known to have breached the Antarctic circle and reached the ice barrier. This expedition offered an exciting chance to find proof of either the flat or globe Earth models because Captain Cook intended to sail completely around Antarctica looking for inlets through the ice-wall. If the Earth was indeed a globe 25,000 miles in equatorial circumference, then a complete circumnavigation of Antarctica would be approximately 12,000 miles, and if the Earth was flat with Antarctica surrounding the entire circumference, a complete circumnavigation of Antarctica would have to take over 50,000 miles. During three voyages lasting three years and eight days, Captain Cook and crew sailed a total of 60,000 miles along the Antarctic coastline never once finding an inlet or path through or beyond the massive glacial wall! Captain Cook wrote: “The ice extended east and west far beyond the reach of our sight, while the southern half of the horizon was illuminated by rays of light which were reflected from the ice to a considerable height.”

>>25215727
The first person in recorded history to ever claim that Earth was anything but the flat, motionless center of the universe was a Greek mathematician and philosopher named Pythagoras of Samos around 500 B.C. Interestingly enough, Pythagoras has also been touted by Freemasonic historians such as Albert Mackey, James Anderson, William Hutchinson and William Preston as being the very first Freemason. Presented more as a thought-experiment than a complete cosmology, Pythagoras posited that if the Earth were a spherical globe turning on its vertical axis once per day while revolving annually around a stationary Sun, that this model could also equally explain the cyclical motions of the heavenly bodies. This heliocentric model was taught to initiates at Pythagoras’ Crotona school but never became popular or had an influence outside of Greece for another two thousand years

Marxist dialectics are just a form of sophistry from a time where it was difficult to prove or measure communist claims on economics.
The revolutions of 1989 pretty much put those claims to the bed.
The only people keeping his non-sense alive are river-paid sociology professors, and mini Stalinist book cults that larp as revolutionaries.
If you were a serious person, and wanted to improve the world, you would be something useful, like an inventor, entrepreneur or even an exist. You wouldn't waste your time with useless erudition like this.

>>25215796
The collapse of the USSR led to a steep and immediate decline in the standard of living and jump in crime throughout the territories

>>25215796
>7th Reagan presidency
>Still clinging to fordist fairy tales
There are no lone inventors or "entrepreneurs". You can get ahead by insider trading on Kalshi or creating a ChatGPT wrapper that maximizes rental prices. If you can't succeed there you'll be selling your labor like the rest of us, and your life is going to continue to get worse until you wise up and fight back.

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>>25215806
>The collapse of the USSR led to a steep and immediate decline in the standard of living and jump in crime throughout the territories
Hey bootlicker,
Every time there is a massive change in a political or economic system, there is a transition period where things are worse for a while.
You want to see a massive decline in living standards worse than Russia in the 90s?
Check out the beginning of the USSR.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWWqhsh848E

The fall of communism was objectively a great thing. Different countries tried liberalized(or didn't) to various extents and the ones that liberalized the most are the ones that are going the best today.

>>25215851
The USSR began after a major internal violent civil war and then an internal violent revolution. Capitalism's introduction had no such thing yet it absolutely did not improve anything, it filled the former territories with wars and destroyed the economic and political power of the bloc

>>25215862
>yet it absolutely did not improve anything
You're talking about post communist countries after 1990?
Are you retarded? All of these nations improved radically. The ones with the most liberalism like Poland and Estonia improved the most.
>it filled the former territories with wars
sooooooo a lack of liberalism?
>and destroyed the economic and political power of the bloc
Good?

>>25215880
Destruction of economic and political power is improvement?

More like dyslexic reading group

>>25214940
its not math bro

dont be a disciple, be a free mind

>>25215902
The market doesn't free minds dude, actually the freer the mind, the worse the consumer

>>25215673
>Fight/flight for example is obviously a dialectic
It's an opposite sure, but you didn't explain how these things being opposites is how evolutionary instincts develop.
>you have two completely contradictory instincts
Yes, and they have nothing to do with class. So the idea that everything is class related and specifically the specific marxist version of class is nonsense.
>I recommend On Contradiction, by Mao
Why are all of the retarded books you people read written by the worse humans to have ever live like mao and lenin, mass murderers, exploiters, enslavers etc?
>But yes your consciousness would still create an individual IF that society had language
It has literally nothing to do with language. Even sentient creatures that cannot speak have a sense of self.
>But important yo remember that the individual predicated on language
But it's not lol
>is a tool for collectivism
Animals who have no language do collectivism.
>Society invented the individual
What? lmao
this is why people say you are all cultists, because you legitimately are
these things make zero sense.
The individual exists even if society doesn't exist. It exists even if language doesn't exist.
>>25215687
>are still capitalism
Liberals like myself don't just advocate for what marxists call "capitalism", we advocate free markets and individual rights. According to your definition, capitalism includes whenever the government does stuff.
>since their victories are the only reason non-unionized or mostly non-unionized companies raise their standards
lmao hahaha that's so cute you people believe this
How the fuck could that have ever been the case?
Wages, working hours, safety etc all improved for decades despite there being little to no pressure from unions or government intervention.
Why did wages rise and prices fall for 95% of the workforce who was not in a union?
>it's in order to compete for labor with unions
There's a limited amount of unionized jobs available, it's not like workers could have threatened their employer with quitting and going to the union job instead. Also union jobs were sector specific, if your skill wasn't really a union thing, then this didn't matter.
>OR to prevent their own workers from following suit and unionizing
Capitalists didn't give a shit about this lol. Also workers weren't regularly threatening to strike so it wasn't a thing capitalists back then were really scared of. Remember, unions were like 5% of the workforce back then. I'm talking america during the late 1800s/early 1900s.
>The Depression was caused by the Stock Market Crash of '29
Which was caused by government intervention, ie. the central bank printing money and creating a bubble. The resulting crash could have been very minor and restructured quickly but instead the government heavily intervened, making the great depression "great".
The great depression should really be called "that time america tried socialism".
That's a more honest name for it.

>>25215892
When that power is a sociopathic communist dictatorship that makes workers poor, yes it is.

>>25215904
>that's why the govern- uh I mean the workers vangaurd should completely monopolize everything and give us one single shitty product
>stop thinking and consume your state mandated gruel.

>>25215388
communists arent totalitarians.
GOP bootlicking oligarchs and christian nationalists are

>>25215262
dialectics are cool.

>>25215911
>communists arent totalitarians.
HAHA Nice one.
Every attempt at communism in history disagrees with you.
Even marx disagrees with you if you read the few times he attempted to describe how his system would work.
>GOP bootlicking oligarchs and christian nationalists are
They ALSO are. You people are extremely similar to them.

>>25215639
as is clearly stated in the communist manifesto, the masters provide all sorts of distractions and subsistence, til they dont - as a result of their being scum and of the nature of their being bourgeois capitalists.

>>25215904
no clue what youre smoking

>>25215915
the manifesto is pro democracy.

everything you think is wrong.

>>25215911
>dialectics are cool.
nigga it's not even real

>>25215921
>the manifesto is pro democracy.
>proving my point
lol why do leftists think democracy == freedom or something?
You think you can't have totalitarianism with democracy?

Also why do you think every example of communism turned totalitarian and horrible?

>>25215927
enjoy your square triangle, bro.

>>25215925
is 3.14 pi real?

>>25215933
nigga what?

>>25215937
exactly

>>25215910
I think this is a good point. Capitalists have a conscience, a soul. They actually care about innocent people. There is no substitute for that

>>25215943
do goyim really

>>25215943
what are you? some sort of protestant? some evangelical wealth preacher?

the conscience of the capitalist: "Few organizations openly and directly defended the toil of children in the factory. While Florence Kelley remarked that no delegation of manufacturers goes to the legislature to say, “Yes, there is child labor, and it is a good thing for the children and the republic,”94 the National Association of Manufacturers (NAM) in fact did so. The chairman of the association lashed out against labor unions, which he saw as behind the move for federal legislation. He remarked, “This labor union plot against the advancement and the happiness of the American boy . . . is also a ploy against industrial expansion and prosperity of the country.” Believing that most children were destined for factory work, he thought the ban on child labor would deprive children of the chance to develop “good industrial habits.”95 "

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>>25214473
Heraclitus is only fragmentary but to comment on him, his dialectic is that everything is always in motion and in a state of discord with everything else. Dialectical materialism would be anathema to him because he’d say discord exists within classes, within people themselves. It isn’t like proles vs bourgeois as in Marxist dialectic but more like every person ever is perpetually in conflict.

>>25216067
Child labor was a fact of life for all human history up until the productive forces of capitalism made it obsolete.
You're damn right I support child labor because I'm not a child poverty supporting sociopath.

Also children in socialist countries also fucking worked and worked harder more grueling jobs.

Base and superstructure is the most retarded theory ever.
Imagine admitting you believe in this.

Marxism should be treated as pseudoscience.

>>25216085
Marxists believe that all change is conflict/contradiction even down to the subatomic level

>>25216184
But isn’t communism supposed to end the contradiction of classes? Heraclitus would say contradiction still exists