The original GM is pretty fucking bad

Not the Leo lmao. Homie was THE top end mobile weapon for decades. You can’t touch its versatility, longevity and ease of use

Something from VOTOMs maybe? Weren't those things fielded in massive numbers because you only expected 10% not to blow up?

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>>23733603
the leo would mop the floor with a lot of UC grunts, it's just up against OC Donut Steel hyperweapon plot armor murdermachines
it has mobility exceeding your average UC grunt, can use beam weapons, can be fitted with modular parts for different missions
the power levels in wing are just pumped up across the board, really

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>>23733664

>>23733664
>>23733666
To be fair this is a Leo piloted by one of THE best pilots period, Heero is basically as good as you can get without mehanical assistance like the Zero system or Alaya Vagina or newtype stuff. That's being said though it's still a testament that with the right pilot a Leo can still go toe to toe with one of the main Wing Gundams such as the Altron, which was already a machine optimized for precise movement in melee combat. We see the Altron win in the end likely due to mechanical superiority, but the Leo held out just fine for a mass produced machine.

Another contender for great mass produced MS would be the Graze from IBO. They can pull off maneuvers that would make a Dom blush and are immune to beam weapons, although the flip side is that we did see Macky job in one vs the mobile armor, so clearly I think they have a hard cap on their melee capabilities vs say the Leo

>>23733674
>with the right pilot a Leo can still go toe to toe with one of the main Wing Gundams
yeah that's the point i'm making with these clips
leos without plot armor are able to tackle, stagger, or otherwise incapacitate gundams a few times in the show, too, when the plot allows for it

>>23733603
#1 Geara Doga (armor gets raped by head vulcan while the is MS no faster or better armed than Jegans to compensate)
#2 Early GMs (shoddy trash that can't keep up with a Zudah before Zudah would even get begin to get the Saturn Engine melty)
#3 Zudahs (bureaucracy fuckup)
#4 Oggo - imagine being worse than a Ball lmao
#5 Gundam X grunts
#6 Jegans
#7 First gen earthnoid fodder of Gundam AGE
#8 Hizacks (like Gelgoogs but with possibly shittier generators that can't power up more than one beam weapon. So basically just Act Zakus. Except that it's not OYW anymore)
#9 Karl Gustav - it's only appearance is a jobbing one but it was good in Gihren's Greed Axis V so I'm not making a fuss out of it

>>23733664
"It's good if you can put a Mary Sue ace pilot where faceless mooks don't even move when fighting them!"
Doesn't this imply the Leo fails as a good grunt since there were maybe like 1.5 times when faceless pilot ones did anything to the 'dams?

>>23733664

Always hated this scene.
An example of the gundam pilots real ability was piloting the vayete and mercurius.
Heero couldnt defeat or even harm quattre when he was piloting zero despite the vayete being a significantly better mobile suit than a space leo.
And both of those suits programmed with heeros and trowas data were mutilated by deathcythe.

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>>23733603
The answer is always Votom's ATs

>>23733651
>>23733802
I keep thinking they're not bad because Chirico goes on tears with them but then I remember he's an immortal demigod and should not be taken as an example of an average AT pilot

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Supposed to be for atmospheric flight but has flared out blocky legs adding drag equivalent to like a european semitruck. Gyoubu can't make coherent designs with a gun to his head.

The Genoace are so trash they were used for years and I'm not convinced they got a single kill during that time.

>>23733817
What flying gundam has legs that wouldnt do that in flight

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>>23733651
>>23733802
>>23733810
Scopedogs are fine compared to the fatty’s

>>23733664
Makes me wonder how would the standard Leo with an average A.C. pilot do against end of OYW Amuro in the RX-78-2, one on one, no support on either side, etc.

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>>23733837
this
it's an uparmored industrial suit armed with a useless gun and a fucking police baton
i actually really like the way it looks but its genuinely awful in-universe

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>>23733603

These fuckers are named WINdams but they ain't got a SINGLE W not even in SEED Freedom.

Not even the custom ace ones are worth anything but jackshit. What a waste for the CE Jegan/MP Strike

>>23733845
I'm specifically referring to the blocky top part of the legs, it's supposed to fly like a waverider horizontally but doesn't look the part at all, that part ruins the what little of immersion left

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>>23733894
My understanding is that it's not intended to be high performance, it's not exactly but sort or also equivalent of the Leo or Tieren equipped with flight packs, which is to say they're more of an early cheap attempt at flying MS.. AKA ground MS with wings

>>23733837
They were supposed to? It’s an era of super peace. The worst they had to deal with was fake gangsters and the occasional pirate

>>23733881
They get a W in the first minute or two of SEED Freedom. Bad bait

>>23733881
I keep seeing these for cheap (for some reason), but I haven't seen Seed Destiny yet, are they at least fun kits?

>>23733694
Geara Dogas are carried by looking fucking awesome.

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>>23733877

I'd say the Genoace was held back by its weapons- once they got them equipped with actual beam rifles and beam sabers even the original Genoaces managed to hold their own in combat.

>>23733694
>Gundam X grunts
Jenice is lowkey great though. It's just the Daughtress that sucks.

>First gen earthnoid fodder of Gundam AGE
Woolf and Largan made the Genoace work, and Shaldoll cavalry lead by Madorna say otherwise.

>>23734081
The Daughtress is a perfectly decent GM with a good spread of variants. It's just nothing more than that and the Jenice, Septem, Octape, and Crouda are all great (the Balient, too, for that matter).

>>23733899
Very polite of Setsuna to wait patiently while he got ready.

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>>23733634
GM might not had been a war-winner on its own by the time it became numerous enough to be strategically useful, but it was 'the' suit the Federation learned MS through.
It was either that or the using Zakus in Feddie drag. Certainly, it was better than that.

>>23734133
Not that anon, but the three eyes of the Daughtress and most of its variants just looking of derpy to me. There's something wrong with their proportions. I think the Neo Daughtress fixes it though.

>>23734235
I like that they tried something different with the triclops, but it never really worked for me, either. Probably why it doesn't break past decent, since the rest of it's alright. Something about the Neo always bugged me but it's hard to narrow it down to anything specific. It feels like it _should_ work.

>>23733871
>average A.C. pilot
The one that just stands and holds the trigger without aiming for where the enemy will move to?
Fuck even Katz might have a chance if he won't crash himself

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They did nothing but job but I live the Ginn.

>>23733694
>It's good if you can put a Mary Sue ace pilot where faceless mooks don't even move when fighting them!
so in other words... the unit isn't bad, it's just that average mook pilots are bad?
also, watch the other video where it's fighting a gundam and moving in ways no UC grunt could dream of

>>23735060
>watch the other video where it's fighting a gundam and moving in ways no UC grunt could dream of

Sometimes UC grunts move just like that. Just watch stuff like MS Igloo or when Rosamia steals a Nemo. You're confusing choreography with technical performance.

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>>23733864
Fattys have a slight advantage in armor but are much worse in terms of speed.

>>23733603
>gets 1 (one) shoulder tackle on the gundam by an old war veteran
>immediately blown up by fresh out of side 7 Amuro
>stated both by Char and Amuro that Zaku I one is outdated and useless (no matter the pilot)
Retroactively portrayed as this mobile suit that can keep up good pace with a good pilot. This and GM becoming this dogshit coffin with arms MS despite not being so in MSG

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Technically speaking, it's a newtype use Boss unit not a grunt.

But the minute Jerid steps in it he devolves into a common grunt and dies instantly. Bound Doc is a piece of shit.

>>23733877
Concur. The Genoace is pretty slick looking for a grunt, but goddamn it's one of the worst ones ever made. Hell, I think a lot of the Federation grunts in AGE are pretty good looking, they just had the misfortune of being in a show that was written to cross-promote a video game.

>>23734213
>>23735165
I would say the GM isn't bad at all is the thing. Recent talk of it being so, alongside its jobbing, is because a single episode of Igloo giving it a problem from thin air explicitly to uplift its new MS. The problem, so far as I can tell, has never come up before or since.

>>23735298
Who even calls the GM bad? It's the Sherman of the OYW being cheap and fast to mass produce and can still kill the enemy's more expensive/slower to produce machines.
Also a reminder that the saying that you needed 5 Shermans to take out a Tiger, was because 5 tanks was the smallest that tank unit fielded by Americans at the time. As they could afford to have 5 tanks go deal with 1 mission as they had plenty for everywhere else.

>>23735060
More like, holistically, a good grunt unit should fit/compensate the performance of the grunt pilots it was made for, enough to cause trouble for the MC

Otherwise anything is good if you put someone with plot armor into it.
Unless there's good choreography and combat direction to really sell it, but that's rare anyway

>>23735176
Elegant as fuck, though.

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>>23735342
Which is a niche that it shares with the M-61 and Ball, both of which did the lions' share of the fighting with the GM often feeling like it stole the credit from them despite usually making up less than half of a given formation.
In that regard, it's more like the Pershing in that it came during a time where most of the fighting had already been done, was better than the average vehicle of the other side but lacking compared to the best, and it would become the backbone of future Federation formations to be upgraded for several generations before finally getting replaced.

>>23735364
>M-61 and Ball
Couldn't do shit in any melee and zeeks LOVED their melee both against Guntanks and command ships alike

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>>23733810
Every time one of Chirico's Scopedogs was destroyed, he'd jack a new one. Has anyone kept count of how many different Scopedogs he went through over the series?

>>23733899
That would make sense if this was a civilization that just started building MS, but the setting is in the far far future, especially with the capital guard/army having the old MS collection to reference off of. The concept is neat too with the weaponized leg unfortunately Gyoubu is almost never coherent with his designs.

The only way I can make sense of this is that their flight tech is so advanced that significant added drag means nothing, but having to do mental gymnastics when the G-Self has an awesome design is just ehh

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>>23733881
>>23733953
Actually, one seemingly DID get a kill before SEED Freedom.

>>23734005
I'd say so. Quality kit.

>>23734903
Track down the gundaminfo vid. They got a few Mobius and Dagger kills. One (nameless even) manages to damage Mu's MA enough to force a retreat. They got some wins.


As for the actual OP, I'd probably have to say the Jamesgun. Even the Javelin's record is pretty impressive in comparison. I know there's a funny grunt breakdown video on youtube pointing out that one Jamesgun that survived against a bunch of Duker's bike MAs alone for a while but that guy was the exception, not the rule.

>>23735342
>Who even calls the GM bad?
Me
Think about it. We hear talk, from some databooks or whatever, that the GM is only marginally worse than the Gundam, but in practice (and often in actuality in games and the like) it's treated like it's an equal to the Zaku II. Sometimes even an inferior. MSV even tries to explain it as the earliest GMs being rushed out the door and using faulty parts.

>>23735416
>but the setting is in the far far future, especially with the capital guard/army having the old MS collection to reference off of
It's a civilization with access to old MS designs but none of the groups fully understand the technology or design decisions. Just because it was a design that their black box of secret technology said it was great back then doesn't mean it's useful for the Capital Army right now either. I mean, if the Catsith was superior to its enemies and the people using it back then never had a reason to improve or replace it, then the original creators might have thought it was an amazing sturdy workhorse MS that never failed its users, like how some people suck off the Leo in Wing nostalgia threads. Or maybe it's not a perfect reproduction of the Catsith's original specs, but more of an imitation using the available materials and understanding of the data, since MS back then didn't run on photon batteries.

Also, think about the backstory - the G-Self was considered a failed prototype because it lost to the Moran in trials to become Dorette fleet's main MS. Could have been a performance issue. Could have been a pilot skill issue. Could have been rigged trials to ensure the G-Self lost.

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>>23735342
>>23735660
Believe it or not, there's contrarians on every side of every possible opinion

>>23735800
Ahh yes, the people that didn't realize that more Sherman crews escaped with some crew alive, than basically every other tank model. Sherman's burned, but most of the crews could escape. For most tank models the whole crew died and/or the tank exploded from a similar hit.

>>23736108
For what it's worth the Soviets liked the Sherman more than they did the T-34, and that was after trashing the Sherman's immediate predecessor for being an over-crewed coffin.

>>23736347
Be fair, the M3 was a coffin as it was supposed to be a tank, but didn't have a turret like a tank destroyer yet didn't have the armor of one.
The T-34s built during the worst of the war were deathtraps to the crew due to inconsistent armor and being hard to get out of.

>>23735176
You can't possibly blame it on the Baund Doc when he had an unbroken loss streak prior

>>23735660
Perhaps that's why the ground-type GM costs less tan even the Zaku I in some of the games.

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>>23735660
GMs are kingshit. But Feddie pilots are all xbox gamer pilots while zeeks were born with a PC in their hand (life with only some dozens of feet of metal between you and the cold void makes you incredibly mechanically conscious)

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>>23735432
The Javelins actually didn't do too badly in their own right.
They get something like 8 kills here before the last bit is them getting slaughtered by either Fuala or Katejina.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9jBXyVN15Y

>>23733757
To be fair, Wing Zero is an absolute beast. Jobbing to that thing is just normal.

>>23733634
it's basically the Sherman tank of 0079

>>23733881
the windam is literal doghist
they get moweed down by dozen in GSD and do literally nothing ever
pretty sad for what is supposed to be the mass produced aile strike gundam

>>23733664
>it has mobility exceeding your average UC grunt
Mobility endowed at the expense of durability, if their tendency to explode at the slightest contact is any indicator.

>>23735153
>Fatties
FTFY

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>>23735800
>Belton Cooper

>>23740596
explodium is a cornerstone of mobile suit technology in Wing

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>>23733603
Genoace. The beam spray gun is basically useless and the melee weapon is...a Stick. A Heat Stick. I think it might be sharp.

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>>23733603
Genoace.
The little MS that couldn't. On any given day.

>>23743832
>>23743909
See >>23734060 and >>23734081

>>23741392
>explodium
gb2 TVT

Guncannon mk1, even a guntank can beat them. At least Windams can be used as a terror weapon against ill equipped ZAFT remnants when not being used to draw heat from FAITH/COMPASS while the destroy did the heavy lifting

Guncannon mk I was so awful that it killed the creator of the minovsky particle

>>23733634
Only major issue is that the beam spray gun is standard issue rather than a proper beam rifle. A GM is a superior machine to a Zaku II and that's a remarkable achievement considering it's the Feddies first, rushed attempt at a mass production suit. Fuck of a lot more useful than a Ball at least.

>>23733603
I said it in one of the other threads but it's the Nemo. The Nemo under-performed at everything, it was considered fodder on the same tier as the AEUG's GMIIs, which themselves were considered hilariously out of date, and by ZZ the entire Nemo line was mothballed and not seen or used by the Federation, with Feddies instead opting to strap missile launchers to GMIIs instead and calling them GMIIIs. The Nemo was that bad. The Nemo was so bad that one never got an onscreen kill in Zeta, unless Rosamy got one when she hijacked one I can't remember. The Nemo went several decades before it was even allowed to look somewhat threatening here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pByUhUb1Czk
It's just an unimpressive suit all around, rolled out one year and immediately retired the next, and I'm disappointed because of all the GM type designs I actually rate the Nemo pretty highly

>>23745231
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qerJQ88diow

>>23745231
The Nemo’s had plenty of kills, what you on about? Not to mention they were superior than the hizack in all fields. Now the GM II on the other hand is the machine you would be talking about

>>23735794
If present day Chinese engineers can reverse engineer US aircraft then so can people in the far future. The only in-universe explanation, if we want to make sense of these odd designs in G-Reco Gyoubu put on to us, is that they utilize Minovsky/I-Field to an extent to minimize drag, because I don't remember the series elaborating much about the tech, most is very vague.

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I know a lot of the stuff from Xabungle is supposed to just freight moving mechs they strapped a gun to like a glorified toyota pickup but they really couldn't even be bothered to rig up any kind of protection for the pilots either

>>23745418
>If present day Chinese engineers can reverse engineer US aircraft then so can people in the far future
the chinese actually have an easier time because they existed in the same time period as their target and can understand US technology because it IS the same technology they are also working on

when the gap is thousands of years apart, you naturally lose a lot of context for how things worked back then. even modern day archaeologists can't just dig up relics and immediately understand what the hell it was for and how it works without a shitton of study. again, not saying it's impossible to understand, but it sure it easier to get details wrong or only have a partial understanding

>>23745585
I get the point but this is basic design philosophy, everything else is kinda fine except the catsith specifically ruins the immersion even in a fantastical far future setting. I have nothing against the G-Reco ms even if some looks really weird except the catsith, it's like a flying rectangle, how the fuck is the only ms purpose built for atmospheric flight and with wings the blockiest out of everything else. Even seed stuff still tries to be cool, Gyoubu just tries too hard to be different in this case

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>>23745459
Well, that's not entirely true

I want a GM IV
Right now is fine!

>>23752384
Serves him right for his silly transformation style

The Zentraedi Battle Pod is basically fodder. A race of proud Zentraedi giants assumed that numbers and size would win, but a single Valkyrie piloted by a puny Micronian could obliterate countless numbers of them.

>>23733603
master chief

>>23755178
didn't account for the micronians using the technology they're after
remember, the whole point is they desperately want the SDF so it makes sense that SDF-derived weapons would beat them
also muh protoculture, micronians have a picture of their waifu on the instrument panel

>>23733694
>#1 Geara Doga (armor gets raped by head vulcan while the is MS no faster or better armed than Jegans to compensate)
Umm...no. The Jegan head Vulcan is basically the same power as a Zaku Kai 90mm machine gun from the One Year War.

You seem to have forgotten that mobile suits ditched heavy armor too after the OYW and focused on mobility. So bullets are much more viable as a weapon choice again.

>>23764647
>Umm...no. The Jegan head Vulcan is basically the same power as a Zaku Kai 90mm machine gun from the One Year War.
Umm... no. What's your source, Super Robot Wars? Gundam Battle Operation 2? There are no physics in the world that can make those tiny head vulcans on a Jegan equal to that of a handheld machine gun, as if it's on some sort of videogame leveling system. The only explanation is that it's a plain old animation fuckup, just like how RX-78 destroys a Zaku and Dom on-screen with just its vulcans.

>>23765340
NTA but depends on the ammunition

>>23765486
good fucking luck sourcing ammunition type for an gun scene from an anime from 45 years ago

>>23765340
>just like how RX-78 destroys a Zaku and Dom on-screen with just its vulcans.

Some of those are intentional because they have Amuro comment that head vulcans don't work on heavier Mobile Suits like the Goggs.

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>>23765759
when does that happen? In episode 24 he uses the head vulcans on the dom and they don't do any damage

>>23765340
to be fair, they were able to miniaturize and fit the gryps 2 laser onto the double zeta's forehead

>>23733664
It's often forgotten but there were significantly worse grunt MS in Wing, namely the Tragos hovertank and the Maganac's equivalent of the same. IIRC in all but one of the battles in which a Maganac MS was shot down, they only lost the hovertanks.

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>>23745231
>instead opting to strap missile launchers to GMIIs instead and calling them GMIIIs.
Technologically speaking, the GM III was more Gundam Mk. II than GM II. They were mostly retired because MS development in general had gone in another direction with the introduction of the Jegan, rather than any real deficiency.

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>>23733634
The GM isn't bad, it's legit a downscaled Gundam.
It has beam weapons, a Luna Titanium shield, and could even go slightly faster than Grandpa (I mean, VERY SLIGHTLY faster, but still enough to be worth pointing out).
To put it into perspective, it wasn't until they got the Gelgoog out that Zeon had something that could well and truly outshine it.

>>23735347
Silly as fuck

>>23733881

Personally, I see Windams as Cosmic Era's stand-in for the GM II.