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Why is the job market basically non existent in europe and why is it getting worse. Even finding a proper STEM internship is hard. Curse you economy.

>>16916444
Because financialization economy doesn't work long-term and we've run out of road to kick the can down.

I have been betrayed so many times by colleagues

>>16916556
Many colleagues?

>>16916574
And untrustworthy interlocutors

I hope my supervisor falls down a flight of stairs

I'm aggression maxxing in preparation to change my supervisors life for ever in Rio in a few months

>>16916381
What's your signal it's time to leave the startup as an employee?
For me, it's when a (((chief of staff))) is hired. Bonus points if they worked in (((USA))).
Second signal is when women comprise more than 10% of the workforce.

>>16916444
nice digits
>interns
are a liability
they distract the experienced staff and produce unreliable results
if you don't have at least some experience by now it is so over it never even began

I'm a failed engineer who HATES the industry. Do I still have a chance to steer and get into research? I don't care about how much it takes I don't want to sell my soul

Alright just cracked and started learning Chinese. Maybe Zhang et al. will take me.

Is clout chasing on social media the only way to make it in academia these days?

how do i overcome lazyness

>>16917417
you are gonna end up in the industry eventually its not worth going to research thats my opinion, you can ask other researchers i think most of them will have the same opinion

I'm going to finish my MsC in Mathematics next year, how long until I get a 6-figure industry job with flexible hours and meaningful work?

I was thinking of going to University for Civil Engineering but I feel to old for it. I'm gonna be 23 when I start and will be doing 5 years (Foundation + Sandwich year) and I will be 28 just to get graduate positions and that is kinda putting me off.

>>16917447
In 5 years you are going to be 28 no matter what, with or without an Engineering degree, your choice.

>had a zoom interview with famous prof with h-index > 150
>only asked me a few questions about myself
>sounded unimpressed with my answers and bored the entire time
>told me only admits PhD students, not MS and my grades aren't high enough to get a direct admit
>sent up a follow-up email a few days after the meeting
>still no response, probably got ghosted

>>16917441
300 feet starting any rooftop you want.

>>16917472
>ghosted

He told you to your face that you won't be admitted.

>>16917472
you probably don't want to work for that guy anyway if he cant even be bothered to put on an act to recruit new students. Trust your gut regarding advisor. Most people disregard advice when selecting an advisor and dont put too much thought into it. For example people will join an advisor when you can pull up alumni and like half mastered out including a couple 8th years, meaning not only will you have a bad advisor but you're going to have idiots in your lab.

>>16917417
My first 4 jobs after I graduated were fucking horrible. I've been at my 5th job for 4 years and I've settled in. You just have to keep job hopping until you find something that doesn't suck. It's brutal but that's how it is. There are a lot of engineering jobs that are total dogshit.

I've never understood this whole "being impressed by people" thing. As a rule I am not impressed by other people, especially men. Undignified behaviour if we are being honest.

>>16917447
the time will pass anyway

>>16917447
If you don't want to flip burgers or manning a lathe for 12h a day in your 40s, go and do it. Having a degree is essential if you want to be promoted out of manual labor and doing classes at that age will be even harder.

>>16917417
These days research is not much different from industry
>both have clear success metrics: papers in "good" (((journals))) or checkmarks in a psychopath manager's list
>both are death march machines designed to churn through hapless individuals
>both are riddled with office politics
>>16917535
>My first 4 jobs after I graduated were fucking horrible.
Story?
My first jobs were not terrible (subjectively).

>>16917472
>sounded unimpressed with my answers and bored the entire time
I'll be real: when I talk to the guys doing BSc or even MSc in my field, I often wonder if they are even sentient. Most do basic mistakes and cannot reason properly. That's coming from a PhD since a few years ago, I imagine it's way worse for a professor who has to wrangle posers on a daily.

>>16917655
My biggest problem as a new grad was getting hired at these smaller companies that had no training system in place, and then just sitting at my desk doing nothing for weeks on end while everyone else was working. I usually ended up just walking out of those jobs because I couldn't handle the tedium and resented how idiotic it was. That happened to me 3 times and I would never consider working for a small company again.
The other job was a field service position and that was too brutal for me. Rotating days/nights and 12 hour shifts. Just horrible, constant suffering and dread. I kept thinking "I went to school for this?"

>>16916381
I'm probably a psychopath but i really enjoy TAing.
I love throwing curve balls and seeing students despair.
I had to do an oral pass/fail assignment and I really REALLY enjoyed asking the students questions they didn't expect and weren't prepared for.

>>16917824
don't be annoying pookie

>>16917447
>gonna be 23 when I start
Not a problem by a wide margin.

>>16917814
Definitely had a similar experience in working with a smaller company. Onboarding was basically "here's your desk, here's your laptop, should get you started see you in a month". It was extremely uncomfortable, took around half a year to really get in the groove.

The plus side is that I can basically have my dick hanging out my pants and clock in/out more or less whenever and nobody gives a single shit. I also stand out well despite being in a mental state that leaves me barely functional because everyone here is incompetent.

I'm still looking to leave because I keep getting assigned projects that take my career in a direction I don't want to go and which are not what I signed up for. That, and being decent at FAGMAN is a better deal than being amazing at Tom's Mom and Pop Semiconductor Shop. There's no future here.

learning python what are my options with bachelors in mech engineering msc in engineering management. had 2 year work experience as a quality officer in manufacturing plant

>>16917814
>just sitting at my desk doing nothing for weeks on end while everyone else was working
That's really weird, no way they'd just let you do nothing after hiring. Normally you'd be assigned to whatever project they are working on and you'd learn the ropes on the go. That's how it always was for me and people I knew.

Anyone here in the UK? Are foundation years worth it? Or would I just be better off starting at year 1?

>>16916381
Mid 30's here. Live in USA. Just got my GED, but I'm making $100k as a software engineer. I also suck at math.

Recommend me a new STEM career

>>16917986
I graduated in the UK and I did what is recommended here: get out of the country as soon as you graduate.

>>16918148
literally a recommendation in every country ever

>>16918150
Not USA.

>>16918150
No. I have never heard of any other country where a postdoc pays as much as a burgerflipper at McD's. The contempt for technology in the UK is simply incredible.
An Oxbridge degree in antediluvian archaeology will be the ticket to enormous success in your country.

>>16918154
USA is horrible. Eurotards envy the salaries on paper while ignoring the insane cost of living. In US you pay $500,000 for a "starter home" built out of tooth picks. In Europe you live for free in your stone hut that your ancestor built in 847 AD.
>>16918160
The reason the UK sucks is because they have a completely criminal political class, whose actions are indistinguishable from sincere intent to destroy the country, same as the US.

>>16918166
>In Europe you live for free in your stone hut that your ancestor built in 847 AD.
How the fuck are you going to find your parent's house in Europe if you are moving out of USA?

>>16918166
$500k is 420k€ and I think in most of Europe a house near major cities will cost around that much. I'm sure you can get them for cheaper away from big cities.

My weekly grocery store bill while living in Boston was cheaper than in Finland. Most e.g. electronics products also cost less in the US than here.

The US has its issues for sure. But for a young professional it's still a better deal in my opinion. I saved much more working as a university postdoc in the US than I do working as an industry senior scientist in Europe.

>>16918166
Your white collar class lives way better than ours, end of story.
A 2 room flat here starts at 400k depending on area. Your average starting salary is in the 50-80k range (30-45% tax btw), taxes will rape you, you have to pay wealth tax for your house, it's hard to find a job, it's very expensive and impossible to drive a car in the city, options are limited, etc. The people that have been working for like 20-30 years all earn in the 100-150 range.

>>16918166
A house in the USA is only $500K? I thought it was supposed to be unaffordable.

>>16918166
nearly everyone in big cities in europe live in flats

>>16918171
Citizenship by ancestry plus you have relatives in europe already.

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For those looking to enter a PhD program:
DO NOT GET A CHINESE, INDIAN, OR IRANIAN PI
That is all.

>>16918697
Why?

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Well /scg/?

>>16918749
Move out of academia and nobody cares about your academic successes or failures.

>>16917986
Just go straight for year one. Foundation years are designed for people who didn't do A-levels or didn't do maths/science. 1st year of a stem course goes over the need bits from A-level anyway since schools all do different syllabuses.
As the other anon says, get the degree and get out of the UK.

>>16918726
The team will be full of cutthroat chinks, smelly backstabbing jeets or violent iranians (also smelly) plus problems with getting clearance

>>16918726
50/50 chance that they are straight up evil and many persians in academia are title-oriented and condescending but very dumb (especially in the medical field) (and not everyone of course, just the wannabe elitists) the monarchist diaspora just has some issues I think

>Iran in the news
>suddenly everyone is expert about Iranians
the normgroid mind at work

>>16918865
Iran is a country with rich history and people are nice and friendly. They just have their own schizos like everyone else

Am I employable with a degree and a masters degree in physics and no work experience at 30 years old?

>>16918726
They are all status-rats who take out their anger and stress on their graduate students and demand you eat, breathe, and live their research.

>>16918982
You are what is known as "unemployable."
That means there is no situation in which any company can possibly think of way that you, as an entity, could create value.

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Me and my PI are working on a paper about this topic in fact

>>16919070
that kinda aligns with the opinion my parents have of me

>>16919206
don't let crab in a bucket mentality niggers pull you down, nothing is easy or granted, but if you don't try you've already lost

Just back from travels, catching up with previous thread.

>>16915966
>Dripping with malice.
Drivel. There is no plausible reason why I would lie.

>>16915971
>No they are not.
Just check the numbers: there are far more US patent attorneys.

>>16916157
>what did you do to be a patent attoney, there is even an EPO office in my city so I'm genuinely interested
My previous job imploded messily and I just fired off job applications to all kinds of companies. I didn't know anything about patent law firms, one colleague from the cratered company told me it was just boring so I didn't apply to patent law firms initially, but when getting a job turned out to be harder than I had expected I also applied there. I got an interview and then I got the job. It turned out they needed someone with my profile. You start as a trainee and there is a lot of legal stuff to learn and then exams to pass. The EQE is brutal.

>>16916244
>He was born with privileges he will never disclose.
The only privileges I was born with are good health and sufficient brains to pass exams. those are hardly unique.
>Don't bother the office is a shell, there's probably only like two people in there keeping the lights on.
There are more than 50 people working here.

>>16916354
>There's a higher chance of winning the lottery than becoming a patent Attorney.
Hardly.

>>16918856
Tons of Persians apply for PhD student positions areound here, many also get in. Now the security police is deeply concerned, and want to reduce the influx.

>>16918889
I knew n=2 Persian students when I did my PhD and they were both nice and friendly. The only issue was that they were caught up in the Middle East conspiracy thinking: every minor inconvenience was a US and/or Israeli conspiracy! Other than that they were fine.

How do I break into business development/sales/operation role in a chemical, pharma, or science-related company with a BS in Chemistry? I'm also considering finance.

Starting to realize lab industry experience isn't as valuable as industry experience in a white-collar job setting and there's little room for growth. I don't want to end up like my other coworker who has 10 years of experience in the lab but can only get barely min wage lab monkey jobs.

>>16919245
Every Iranian male is either conscripted to join the Iranian Army or the Revolutionary Guard Corps. They are literally trained to become fighters of the West. Who knows what sort of damage they can do or are currently doing once they get here. Do not let their friendly facade fool you, they are your enemy.

>>16918827
>cutthroat
>backstabbing
>Opportunistic
I have worked with eastern euros and they also were like this.
It's a third worlder trait. They escaped from their shitholes by being like this

>>16916444
>Why is the job market basically non existent in europe and why is it getting worse.
Dire leadership. Nowhere is it worse than in the UK and latest news reaches levels of doom never before thought possible:
>‘Is university still worth it?’ is the wrong question
https://archive.is/DEnAP
>Britain’s university graduates are having a rough time of it. In 1999, the average graduate salary was 80 per cent more than their non-graduate counterpart; in the latest data this was down to just 45 per cent, and that’s before factoring in student loans. Adding insult to injury, the government has worsened the terms of the loans to ensure repayments don’t wither in line with salaries.
>Worsening graduate fortunes, it turns out, are a particularly British problem, and one that — like many — can be traced to the particularly British ailments of weak productivity growth and poor economic performance more broadly.

Seems the general advice still stands: get a degree in the UK and then evacuate at best speed.

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>32
>laid off from factory job in circuit board manufacture 5 months ago
>had been sleeping 5 hours a night for 5 years
>got back into studying math
>girlfriend dumped me for not having a job and wanting to go back to school even though I have 100k saved
>ok.jpg
>studied for CLEP exam for calc I
>took test, got 64/80
>now in Calc II and Linear Algebra
>want to get associates degree in Math
>after that: ????

Is there anything I can do with a bachelor's in math these days? I need to start making 100k/yr ASAP or else my life is over. I made 56k before and life was non viable. I'm about ready to give up. I already lost a girlfriend for this stupid shit, I have a new one who is hotter but I liked the old one more. Now I am committed sunk-cost fallacy wise. Am I wasting my time? I'm in community college and have almost all my humanities credits either done or ready to take a CLEP to replace them over the summer. I could have a maths associates by next year.

I don't know if I can get financial aid to do my bachelors. I really do not want to give up my entire down payment for a house to get a fucking degree that will be replaced by jeets/AI.

>>16919454
I was going to help you but then you couldn't stop boasting about being a sex haver on my image board for autistic virgins so I changed my mind and hope everything goes horribly wrong for you.

>>16919506
I was a virgin til 29 please help me

>>16919454
>Is there anything I can do with a bachelor's in math these days?
No. Nonono. Maths studies is a career disaster, chose anything except maths and CS. If you like maths try EE with an emphasis on digital signal processing (DSP).

>>16919525
EE is a brutal degree with mediocre outcomes.
I don't know when/how this EE meme started but it seems like people think of it as like a backup plan now that the CS bubble burst and it's just not the same.

>>16919557
>brutal degree with mediocre outcomes

That is the best case scenario for STEM careers in 2026.

>>16919291
>cutthroat
>backstabbing
>Opportunistic
I want to avoid people like this and any and all office politics. What are my options? Elementary school teacher?

>>16919752
>Elementary school teacher
Whites are already a tiny minority in that age group. There are tons of videos online from elementary school teachers about how they are quitting and changing careers because they don't know how to deal with the "bad behavior" anymore. They don't say it explicitly but what they're basically saying is supercritical levels of nig nogging.

Just imagine Glocktavius da Third stabbing you in the neck with a pair of safety scissors while screaming BLANK SLATE at the top of his lungs. All for $18 an hour.

>>16919752
It's unavoidable.
You climb up and you're bound to meet these people.
The guy born with silver spoon up his ass and the third worlder try hard that would decapitate his mother with a rusty knife to get a position at a top ranked company. I immensely dislike both.
You just have to accept it and play along.

>>16919752
Substinence farmer is basically the only option.

It's not just at the high flying places either. It's one thing to get Zuckerberged out of a billion-dollar company but I'd almost prefer that to having a fellow minimum wage worker fuck me over for the cash equivalent of a cheeseburger.

In hard technical fields these are the people who will rise to management. But in hard technical fields you can basically tell everyone to fuck off as long as you are really good at your job and actually do it. Your career will cap off at the individual contributor level without office politics but people will more than likely tolerate you not playing the game if your output is worth it.You'll still be surrounded by these people.

Basically if you're one of the people who actually does work or produces something you can usually keep doing that and let the cloak-and-dagger games play around you while they get the credit and profit off your work.

Why does every job interview I have end with "We are very impressed with your technical expertise, but we are going with another candidate." Am I just a raging asshole?

These are first hire engineering or head of ops roles. Well, one of them was for a large org, but they were clearly looking for a paper pusher instead of a process architect.

>>16919557
Look at the alternatives:
- Physics: fine though you need a PhD so studies are long
- Chemistry: bad
- Biotech: really bad
- Maths: horrifically bad
- CS: a fancy slave ship where firings are undertaken by machine guns

Adjacent career plans:
- management consulting: junior intakes are throttled
- finance: junior intakes are throttled and whoever gets in is in for slavery.

>>16919525
>If you like maths try EE with an emphasis on digital signal processing (DSP).
This is horrible advice.
ee and dsp math fucking sucks. It has no grand theory behind it nor any rigor, it's just a poorly explained and handwavey sporadic use of different unrelated mathematics.

>>16919833
>individual contributor level
Humiliation ritual. If you are 30+ and have not switched to management you have failed in life. That's just pathetic. Imagine being an unc who takes orders from a kid in late 20s.

>>16918726
>>16919245

To contribute to the body of anecdotes: I had a chinese PI and worked with an Iranian graduate student. The Iranian guy moved to the US (leaving his family behind) about 5 years ago and is a very nice and reasonable dude. Politically he keeps his head down cuz he doesn't want to have even the slightest chance of being deported. Privately though he's extremely anti-khamenei and theocracy in general. My chinese PI on the other hand is a constantly record chasing, clout oriented, never available kind of PI. Can attract grants like no other which is nice but will not advise you even a little bit, in his group you're completely on your own. I would speak to him maybe 3 times a year about research. A large portion of the group was chinese, and I swear he made it extra hard on them lol.

My supervisor persecuted me viciously for the crime of not having attended Oxbridge. I'm gonna karate chop his spine in half.

>>16919869
Well, that's specifically for anon asking about careers without politics. Good luck advancing to management without politics.

>>16919557
>>16919864
Man, I'm at the tail end of my physics phd and looking for a job. It's really not fine... but still better than chem/bio/cs so I agree with your relative ranking.
What I've learned so far in the job search is that only a few areas are actually hiring at any time, and when they make postings that 99% of the time have a short list of a few names who will have top priority before they look at an outsiders resume. Those areas right now are AI/ML and quantum computing. Breaking into this kind of job environment is really, really tough if you A) don't have the right connections and B) have a publication record that perfectly lines up with what you want to do. I think you really need both to actually get hired.

But I think a part of it is the fact that the QC technology is in heavy R&D mode right now which demands top notch talent. An army of entry-level noobs won't make your shit any better, only experienced scientists can do that. Once the technology has matured a bit, there's room for more applications to crop up and the entry levels will cut their teeth on that. On top of that, it just doesn't take many personnel to run a quantum computing team at a company. It's not hundreds and hundreds of people they need.


>>16919866
If you don't like that it's an applied field then thats fine, but it's not horrible advice at all. It's great advice.
Undergrads that can't think 5 years ahead choose math because they're enamored with the rigor and depth and structure and blah blah blah. Math shouldn't be considered a career choice. Nobody does math for a living who doesn't work at a university, and you don't want to go down the academia route with math.

US here. I have a MS and BS degree in agricultural engineering with a concentration in environmental water quality and drainage infrastructure. Can someone advise me jobs or sectors i can look into? Im living in my car and cant find a job. Im trying to get a job at ace hardware atm and i had to take my degrees off my resume.

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Does being an Engineer-in-training help my resume a lot?

>>16919557
>>16919525
>>16919752
>>16919864
So should I just fucking give up and be a NEET? I have some projects I am working on but they are all low-profit things to say the least. I've made like 200 dollars total from them.

>>16919937
gubmint
CBP and USDA hire agriculture specialists. try to tailor your resume to what they're looking for in a job posting. also if you get an interview answer their questions carefully and don't be autistic.

>>16919557
>EE is a brutal degree with mediocre outcomes.
There a ton of EE jobs especially in power systems and power electronics fields. It's also an easy degree if you are not a midwit. The only hard degrees are maths and physics.

>>16917447
You are a fucking idiot if you think you're too old. Nobody will care that you are 5 years older than peers when applying to internships and entry-level jobs, and after a few years in industry it won't even matter.

> t. engineer that started later

They are calling it one of the most amazing first interviews of all time. Fuck the haters, fuck sickos, fuck pissrael.

>>16920108
maths and phyiscs are arguably easier than both ee and me.

these threads should have big warnings not to get your degrees in maths.

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES GET A MATH DEGREE.

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>>16920301

>>16920293
Depends on what are you better at. Better at generalizing and finding patterns or at rote memorization? If former > latter, physics is easier, otherwise EE. If both are equally good, you are a god.
t. worked with many people from both sides

>>16919933
IDK, can't relate.
I work with established tech that everyone uses and employs tons of people (power). Job opportunities are virtually endless.
If you just want to work on the "cutting edge" and target some niche, exploratory field, then obviously you're going to have far less opportunities. This just sounds like a personal decision you have made and basic risk/reward calculation.

>>16919937
Drainage infrastructure sounds like a good fit for municipal planning, I would visit the website of basically any city with a population over 50k.

>>16917447
>23
Relax, just do it if you like the subject. You'll regret not getting the degree later on when climbing the ranks.

>>16920301
what prompted your comment?

>>16920108
Not trying to get dragged into some flame war, but from what I've seen, engineering degrees are the most demanding degrees on campus, and EE most of all.
Additionally most engineering programs are actively trying to filter people out of the program to reduce class sizes for lab-based courses.
On the other hand, most math and physics program are just thankful for any student they can get.

>>16917653
>promoted out of manual labor
the only labor needed in the economy is now manual labor. white collar jobs are deprecated. those who got in will keep them for a while but why hire anybody new?

>>16917472
>had a zoom interview with famous prof with h-index > 150
you must have top grades from an elite university and publications at top venues because these niggas don't even talk to the real proles like me

>>16920448
>engineering degrees are the most demanding degrees
engineering is a very patience loaded discipline but not a very g-loaded one. anyone above 90IQ can get a degree in any engineering discipline but most people get filtered by the obscene amount of made up pointless bullshit work that you have to trudge through over 4-5 years

>>16920450
The rich are dumb and lazy. They won't bother with day-to-day operations, they just want the line going up. This means they will appoint someone to oversee the operations and be the fall guy. How do you know who to pick? A gullible slave of just enough intelligence, i.e. a diploma holder.

>>16920456
People get filtered by both the busy work and their own lack of intelligence. There is a strong incentive to endure the busy work so it's more likely to say that a lack of intelligence is the more significant filter.
A 90IQ person cannot get an engineering degree. Even if they managed somehow to turn in something acceptable for the assignments, they will fail all the exams.
If you extrapolate IQ from standardized test scores, the average engineering graduate is somewhere between 115 and 130.
If it was possible to get an engineering degree at 90 IQ, I'd expect that average to be much lower.

>>16920464
>they will fail all the exams.
only at elite schools. the world is full of 90-100IQ engineers from bottom tier US, mid-tier EU and any-tier third world unis

>>16920469
>>16920464
like one thing I think many tryhard nerds here miss is that you only need to pass your exams to graduate, not ace them. and if you go down the ladder to regional schools (e.g. national unis in small European countries or shitty papermill type schools in the US) they will typically be quite lenient about letting you retake classes and avoid expulsion

>>16920461
>This means they will appoint someone to oversee the operations
and that someone will be a neural network running on a GPU, not a human

the only thing humans are good for is interaction with the physical world, for now. in a couple years expect humans to be entirely deprecated, that's when the automated mass extirpation of the proletariat begins. assuming any human remains in control, if not the rich will also die.

>>16920113
>Nobody will care that you are 5 years older than peers when applying to internships and entry-level jobs
I've personally trashed multiple CVs by guys older than the norm for their degree applying for internships. Interns are already a fucking drag to deal with, no way I'm wasting my time on someone who was stupid enough to waste years of his life fucking around with other shit.

>>16919752
>teacher
bro did you not fucking pay attention to what the teachers were talking about among themselves as a kid? they're living in a self-imposed lord of the flies type of environment

>>16920469
>>16920471
Bottom tier paper mill US universities don't offer engineering degrees to begin with. And it's very possible for a 90 IQ person to fail a "lenient" engineering exam. Forget acing.

>>16920475
don't seethe too much that others got to enjoy their youth unlike (You)

>>16920479
>And it's very possible for a 90 IQ person to fail
yes, but not guaranteed. some will get filtered but some will make it through. I personally know a number of complete mouthbreathers with engineering degrees from a number of EU countries, even real ones (west of the Oder)

>>16920481
spin it however you like, your resume's still going into the bin

>>16920482
I can hypothetically imagine a course with an neglectful professor who just hand-waves everyone across the finish line and a 90 IQ avoids an F, but you aren't getting through an entire degree like that.

>>16920484
good, if I was hired in your team, I'd quit on the spot

>>16920485
your uni must have been in the upper percentiles because you legit don't have a clue, LMAO

>>16920486
don't get ahead of yourself. garbage like you would never get hired.

any intellectual worker should have the capacity for mental reflection and theory of mind. and any who do will immediately realize that any fault with their resume will be a massive competitive disadvantage, since anyone who is smart enough to reason recursively will also realize this and work to prevent it. ergo, if you have employment or education gaps, the only explanation is that you are too fucking stupid to reason recursively.

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what a bunch of nerds

>>16920494
>assuming I have not yet switched to industry
lmao
>thinking we should not lie in a resume
lmao
>sniffing own fart this hard
lmao
>>>/r/eddit

>>16920436
Oh absolutely, it is a choice to go into grad school and specialize that way. I'm definitely not claiming that my experience will be like anyone elses, I was just sharing what it looks like from my perspective as a fresh phd grad in hard science.
If you're in power (EE, I'm guessing that means?), then chances are you had a much more "vocational school" experience in college. With much more of the real world in demand of engineering, the pipeline to industry is much wider out of school.
But I see hard science bachelors recommended a lot here, and if you want an industry position in the hard sciences (and actually make a living wage), you HAVE to be at the cutting edge (read: phd in hot field) cause that's the only place people will pay you to do what you do.
To balance out my doomer aura, if you're into it, grad school can be a really rewarding and fun environment to work on the cutting edge with relatively low risk, and you can grow some great connections out of it.

>>16920494
who let the redditor in

>>16920622
>To balance out my doomer aura, if you're into it, grad school can be a really rewarding and fun environment to work on the cutting edge with relatively low risk, and you can grow some great connections out of it.

Wrong, it is psycho-spiritual torture designed to transform sensitive young men into easily activated violence bombs

>>16920484
I would love to rape you to death

How cooked am I in a "tech" position in a research group when it comes to being able to get employed in industry after? It's a good group that has been around since the 80's and is in bed with dod etc., but I don't really want to nuke my ability to move on with just an undergrad in physics.

For context I'm a recent ish grad, 1 year with the group, 1(co-op/stay during uni)+1 years in industry before + two years of undergrad research. Almost all of the experience is design / field deployment of instrumentation (embedded dev/ systems/ some light math model shit)

>>16920622
EE isn't "vocational school" lol.
Holy fuk the status strivers in here are absolutely delusional.

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I work in IT make less than $40k and have a degree in physics. Can't land any interviews in engineering or labs. I don't want to stay in IT should I just take HVAC classes at this point? Not making any progress in my career.

>>16920846
More vocational than a traditional physics degree is what I believe that anon is saying. EE (or any engineering) is very hand wavy in terms of mathematics and physics, focus is application and solution rather than research/theory.

>t. MechE turned physicist

>>16920851
I have a friend who got a degree in physics, I went out of my way to get him a job and no one in the company would even look at his resume. Absolutely brutal.
Why does engineering carry such prestige? Is it just because of ABET?

>>16920846
>isn't "vocational school"
all engineering outside like MIT and ETH/EPFL is vocational school. you will learn this really quick if you ever decide to try going for grad school in a hard science.

>>16920851
Defense!

Has anyone completed MS ECE power engineering program from UoW?

Study statistics, if I like math? Or atleast like it the most. Graduating soon. Not super smart but i can figure out a lot given enough time and a theory base. Seems like studying just math would be a dead end. Either become a teacher (no money, dealing with students, most of whom have no interest in what you are teaching/I don't really want to work with people constantly) or go super academic (again, no money, atleast not in math I'd assume/don't like academic principles- times new roman ect./probably not smart enough to come up with theories and formulas that dont already exist).While statistics is more applied to the real world and used in almost everything, but, with the progress of ai, fearing, that might be replaced

>>16920865
>Why does engineering carry such prestige?
More like they are afraid to hire a guy who makes them appear incompetent kek

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>an intern put the reddit frog on his presentation
I shit you not. It was kinda small so maybe few noticed.

>>16920865
its not prestige so much as "why would I hire I guy I have to teach what to do"?

>>16920851
what is it that you want to do?

>>16921009
starting to believe this

>>16920865
>>16921009
there's a lot of shit an engineer has to do that can only be learned by doing. especially any kind of design work, it requires a lot of confidence and autonomy, a "feel" for when and how to set and meet constraints in your own work, how to budget your time when working on open-ended, ill-defined problems, etc. all this can only be learned by tinkering with shit and breaking things for many years until you're actually capable of designing and building something that works

if you come from a purely academic background you probably need to spend a couple years just becoming useful. whereas most engineers are just tradies who took some handwavy calculus classes

>>16921449
I'm a physicist turned whatever and after one year in indistry I'm having to tard wrangle engineers with 20 years of experience. They get sidetracked on shit that does not matter, are not able to see the forest from the trees and definitely cannot manage a full project or even their own time. To be honest this presumably isn't engineers in general just these guys being incompetent.

But the idea that someone from academia is somehow detached from "real work" is unfounded.

A smart person can learn the ropes in a year, an idiot will just be an idiot with experience.

>>16921449
To add to my post above

>confidence and autonomy, a "feel" for when and how to set and meet constraints in your own work, how to budget your time when working on open-ended, ill-defined problems, etc.

You don't see how working on research projects might require similar qualities? "Purely academic background" is not the same as "fresh out of undergrad". It really is not uncommon to find this attitude in industry though, and it is reflected directly in pay and seniority. This is why I tell people postdocs and PhDs are a waste of life.

>>16921141
>its not prestige so much as "why would I hire I guy I have to teach what to do"?
That happens no matter who you hire.
>>16921449
The difference is that engineers have real-world stakeholders who are ultimately expecting something tangible and operational to be delivered, while academics have no stakes or expectations at all.
IMO engineering degrees are so highly regarded because to be a competent engineer you need to excel in multiple areas - at least one technical background, project management, business acumen, and even being able to interpret and contribute to legal documents.
It really is a highly integrated profession where you are expected to show aptitude in a lot of different parts of the business.

>>16921699
>IMO engineering degrees are so highly regarded because to be a competent engineer you need to excel in multiple areas - at least one technical background, project management, business acumen, and even being able to interpret and contribute to legal documents.

An engineering degree, though, does not guarantee or even provide training for any of those except technical knowledge. And even that is at the background level since real work is far more specialized than can be included in a degree programme.

>>16921570
>after one year in indistry I'm having to tard wrangle
>one year
$20 says you're the one being tard wrangled here (and failing to be), buddy

>>16921572
>You don't see how working on research projects might require similar qualities?
I switched to research after engineering and got a PhD so I work with both engineers and researchers across multiple domains constantly

we're discussing people at the undergrad level. the time it takes you to get a PhD is the
>spend years becoming useful phase
that I mentioned. the average mechanical or electrical engineering grad has been doing extensive projects with autonomy for years while the typical physicist or computer scientist I see doesn't know shit about fuck and only knows how to pass exams

of course the engineers can't do math for the most part, though the smart ones can usually learn if they take remedial classes in grad school

>>16921699
they're also next in the pipeline of replacement by ai

as a mechanical engineer, what are my options for a master's degree that would actually make me employable in this current hellscape of a job market

>>16921754
I only talk to my manager during performance reviews. If anything I wanted to be tard wrangled since I had no idea what I was doing for the first six months. Turns out the people around me also have no idea. I have some idea now and that's enough to put me in charge of projects and get these people reporting to me.

>>16921779
Nah.
The benefit of belonging to an actual profession with licensure (lawyer, doctor, engineer) is that it can be gatekept.
If CSfags weren't so dumb they would have established some kind of licensure grift organization to protect their industry before they rushed headfirst into AI.

>>16921914
>The benefit of belonging to an actual profession with licensure (lawyer, doctor, engineer) is that it can be gatekept.
new lawgrads are getting fucked by ai replacing paralegal and office positions
the same problem is effecting engineering new grads. CAD and design is actively being worked on, Autodesk is experimenting with ai agents and sometime this year Solidworks will too
If you are an under 25 year old there are no entry level positions being offered. If you are a 30+ yearold already in the game then whatever, you're fine, for now.
Telling a 18 year old kid to get a 4 year degree in something he'll never be employed in is evil

>>16917463
This is an excellent answer.

>>16917653
Another excellent answer.

>>16921918
>CAD and design is actively being worked on, Autodesk is experimenting with ai agents and sometime this year Solidworks will too
but someone ultimately still needs to be able to look at the physical thing, touch it all over with various physical tools and figure out why it's not working (it will never work first time around), then fix whatever stage of the process fucked it up

engineering is inherently safer than CS because it involves interfacing with the physical world. not completely secure - certainly AI can reduce headcount requirements, and ultimately there's no hard barrier preventing AI from eventually having full embodied intelligence capable of agency in the real world - but barring the latter development it is somewhat less affected

>>16921918
also
>4 year degree
>18 year old kid
the fact that you think this is a lot of time and that wasting some time before you're 22 matters at all reveals you're underageb&

>>16922240
>but someone ultimately still needs to be able to look at the physical thing, touch it all over with various physical tools and figure out why it's not working (it will never work first time around), then fix whatever stage of the process fucked it up
this is rarely done by the engineer, and only in specific roles.
>engineering is inherently safer than CS because it involves interfacing with the physical world.
engineering IS safer than CS but not for long and not because it interfaces with the real world. It's safer because of the reason that other anon mentioned, it has a strong pedigree(boomers) that keep it alive and well. That pedigree doesn't really extend to zoomers or late millennials though.
I'm just saying there's other more profitable options for a bachelors degree(if your goal is to be an applied scientist or just make money)
>>16922241
It's not a lot of time, it's also not an insignificant amount of time, but that's not the point I was making
the point I was making is (you)/society at large are/is telling an 18 year old to make a choice he hasn't completely contemplated. And because he's an 18 year old kid, he really doesn't know better, or that there's other options at the table.

>>16919866
>ee and dsp math fucking sucks.
It is hard and not always intuitive. Then again that is what keeps it more exclusive. Combining DSP maths with mastery of assembly programming DSP chips will secure you a good job.
>It has no grand theory behind it nor any rigor,
Enginnering is engineering, for rigor you go to maths and unemployment. You can, of course, apply rigor for your own studies.
>it's just a poorly explained and handwavey sporadic use of different unrelated mathematics.
That is just bad lecturers.

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>>16919993
>So should I just fucking give up and be a NEET?
Never! Nil Carborundum!
>I have some projects I am working on but they are all low-profit things to say the least. I've made like 200 dollars total from them.
Sounds like a startup, go for it. You can take super high risks when you are young and failure won't kill you. I founded a startup with two others. We tanked massively. Thankfully we burned just our own time and money and kept my name and reputation intact. Still it was a great experience. And I hope you will do better than me.

You should ignore the previous post and try to become a European patent attorney

If the Saudis scout me for a PhD position, should I take it?
>t. mathematician

Daily reminder for all anons seeking advice here: anons in this general are extremely pessimistic and unrealistic.
It's the pendulum effect, they see how overly optimistic normies are and end up overshooting swinging in the opposite direction in their attempt to have a realistic view.
If you have a stem degree and do a bit more than bare minimum then youre guaranteed a decent job.
The only exception is advice relating to postgrad, yeah that shit is actually even worse

>>16922604
>The only exception is advice relating to postgrad, yeah that shit is actually even worse
Most regulars here have STEM PhDs and are turbo losers (me included).

>>16922604
>have a stem degree and do a bit more than bare minimum
is having a PhD in an academic field on top of an engineering degree, working 7 days a week for the past 4.5 years, spending like 15k of my own money on procuring materials and equipment that couldn't be sourced through my institute's byzantine bureaucracy, securing and delivering several short term contract research projects considered "doing more than the bare minimum" in your book?

because if yes then you're full of shit, it doesn't even guarantee continued employment, or an interview with another prospective employer (let alone a job offer)

>>16922604
Normies are not optimistic about the job market these days.

>If you have a stem degree and do a bit more than bare minimum then youre guaranteed a decent job.
It's very important to realize you are not guaranteed anything. The days of jobs being just handed out by virtue of having a degree are over. Though I would agree that most people still end up in OK jobs eventually.

>The only exception is advice relating to postgrad, yeah that shit is actually even worse
A good chunk of STEM careers require postgrad. Despite this, one of the more jarring realizations was that everything I'd worked for during my academic career is completely glossed over and worthless in industry.

>>16922696
>is having a PhD in an academic field on top of an engineering degree, working 7 days a week for the past 4.5 years, spending like 15k of my own money on procuring materials and equipment that couldn't be sourced through my institute's byzantine bureaucracy, securing and delivering several short term contract research projects considered "doing more than the bare minimum" in your book?
That's postgrad and you're applying to a highly competitive r&d position. It doesn't matter where, all of them are highly competitive, a postgrad position in Zimbabwe will prolly still have a 100 applicants.
I am talking about stem student's that have masters at the most.
You need to do some effort but you can easily get a job at a smaller company/city council o algo.
Once you do a PhD and end up in the postdoc limbo it's over.
>>16922750 #
>A good chunk of STEM careers require postgrad
Tbh the "postgrad" cutoff should be moved to phd, master's are the new bachelor's. At least here in europoor land with ects course credit system.
You don't need a PhD if youre not doing r&d.
Finally. You need to accept that getty to work with your speciality and area of interest is a privilege

>>16922793
>you're applying to a highly competitive r&d position.
I'm applying to all kinds of positions. Every single job type has hundreds of candidates applying and retarded roasties screening them without understanding what the job is even about. Stop moving goalposts, anyway. Having a STEM degree and "doing more than the bare minimum" doesn't guarantee jack shit.

You probably got a good spawn and good starter job, which locked you into the easy mode top 5% career track. Everyone else is stuck in the grind always on the knife edge facing unemployability and starvation.

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Pasta here. I got a BS in aerospace engineering, I have 3+ years of experience in a local consultancy & outsourcing firm operating in the industrial and consumer product sector, and at this point I'm their FEA specialist.
I want out of the 9 to 5 because I have very little energy thanks to years of untreated depression. Now I'm functional thanks to treatment, but I'm operating at my fucking limit every day of my life. Did anyone here managed to go independent and get a better life-work balance?

>>16922604
Not even remotely true lol. This is boomer tier out of touch woke NONSENSE

My supervisor looks like projared.

>>16922997
>independent
>work-life balance
lmao retard you really don't understand how the world works, do you? go work for a government agency.

>>16922604
>youre guaranteed a decent job
Not for long :P LLMs will make everyone ITT jobless unless you'd be down for street cleaning kek

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>>16922570
Or you could work for the European Patent Office, well paid and no national tax.

>>16922603
If you really are a mathematician you should accept any job offer.

>>16922604
I for one am optimistic and also recommend doing a PhD and at least one postdoc contract, perferably in a different country.

>>16923174
If I can cut out the middleman (the firm), I can earn more.
If I can earn more per hour, I can work less hours.
If I don't have to abide to some arbitrary presence schedule, I can work those hours whenever I feel like it.
Simple as.

Just got completely hosed on my annual compensation review and I'm about to quit out of anger.

I really think learning real analysis was the biggest waste of time in my life. Years of my young life wasted on something completely useless to me, learnt in a hostile environment.

>>16923282
if you cut out the middleman you now have to do all the middleman shit yourself. also there's no one else to take responsibility for anything so you better be ready to get out of bed and work at 2am on a Saturday night if that's what has to be done.

>>16923275
>doing a postdoc
unless you went to a top 50 uni globally this is impossible btw. every single postdoc position even at podunk U, middle of nowhere requires
>outstanding publication record at top journals and conferences
>proven research experience at top universities or institutes

>>16923369
>quitting in this job market
welcome to the permanent underclass

>Study for over 10 years
>Only skill I have mastered is self sabotage

The Ballad of the Troll and the EPO Man

There once was a troll with a briefcase of spite,
Who mailed out his threats in the dead of the night.
“My patent’s a masterpiece, broad as the sea—
It covers ‘using a screen’ and ‘clicking agree’.”

He sued startups in basements, small shops, grandma’s blog,
Demanded six figures for “progress bar analogues.”
The world called him evil, a leech in a suit,
But the troll just kept laughing and counting his loot.

But then came Herr Müller, EPO examiner,
A patent attorney turned bureaucratic slammer.
With glasses like moons and a fountain pen sword,
He lived for one purpose: to make trolls quite bored.

He opened the file, gave a Teutonic sigh,
“Novelty? Nein. Inventive step? Why?”
“Technical character? This is just greed in a suit,
Your ‘clicking method’ is spiritually moot.”

The troll screamed on Zoom, “But the market is mine!
I own notifications and feeling divine!”
Herr Müller just smiled like a man who’d seen worse:
“I’ve got Art. 56 and I’m lifting the curse.”

The troll slammed his desk, screamed “I’ll appeal to the Boards!
I’ll drag this to Strasbourg! I’ll sharpen my swords!”
He filed, he appealed, he hired counsel in pairs,
Kept experts on retainer with impressive gray hairs.

When a single Board member, on Friday at five,
Exhausted from backlog, just wanted to thrive,
Looked once at the claims, gave a shrug and a yawn,
And wrote: “Inventive step… yeah, sure, carry on.”

The EPO letter arrived like a bomb:
“Patent maintained as granted. Troll wins. Ding-dong.”
Herr Müller stared, stunned, at the screen with tears in his eyes,
While the troll danced the Macarena in his hot tub in Dubai.

Now startups pay tribute in quiet despair,
While Müller updates his CV with care.
The troll’s yacht is named “Art. 56? Nah”,
And he toasts every night: “To the Boards— Prost! Hurrah!”

>>16923704
should have worked at the epo...

>>16924015
>>16923765
European Patent Attorneys are real though, I personally know one

>>16923765
>>16924015
European Patent Attorneys are a psyop that I am currently tasked with maintaining by disinforming this thread

They all think I'm just some punk faggot, a little alien worm freak bitch they can fuck with at will. But ill show them...

>>16924132
The person who designed my vacuum is a fucking retard. The tube has a fucking constriction after the entrance, and it is just significant enough that a thing can get stuck right before the curve of the handle. now I have to figure out how to get out the ball valve thing from my shower drain that got stuck there because I was vacuuming up the water from the assembly to clean it

thank you for reading my blog

>>16923518
>every single postdoc position even at podunk U, middle of nowhere requires
They may WANT that but they are not getting it.

I stopped applying for PhDs at top 100 universities and applied to the top 300 ones instead.
The months it took for me to figure this out, the number of people applying to the top 300 university has gone from 30 to 120. This is wiping out all my chances. Had I applied to these 6 months ago, I would have been guaranteed a PhD, but I thought I was too good for them just because my master degree is from a top 100.
Something has been happening the past 5 months to quadruple the number of people applying to bad universities. Meanwhile the good universities are impossible to get into.

I'm starting to wonder if I will ever get a PhD. At this rate I should give up and get any kind of white collar job like the privilege of analyzing waste water so I don't have to deliver packages for Amazon.

>>16924300
They are getting it now.
Ask any professor and he's gonna say he's getting tons of qualified candidates with extreme levels of publications in the middle of nowhere like rural Utah.

>>16924065
This makes absolutely no sense. Did you have a stroke?

>>16924304
>They are getting it now.
How is that even possible? There are so many postdoc positions, it is after all the lowest rung on the ladder and academia is running through postdocs in droves.

>>16924306
It doesn't matter how many positions there are.
Google has a ton of positions open, but they won't hire anyone.

>>16924301
>Something has been happening
Tons of foreigners getting laid off from their "high status" tech jobs and applying like mad to unis to get student visa to stay in the country.

i just realized that what I've been doing aligns with that of what so called professional students do... just learning for the sake of leaning without experience/work

>>16916381
How to get over working for the military? Right now doing my PhD working on developing alloy systems for the navy. Specifically for submarines. I contented myself by saying that submarines were totally obsolete, meanwhile literally today we had the first ship sunk by a US sub since WWII lol…
I dunno, it makes me sick to my stomach if I think about it too much. But I don’t want to do something stupid like quit. For the record I’m a 1st year so perhaps there’s still time to pivot.

>>16924360
>. For the record I’m a 1st year
so you have contributed absolutely nothing to anything

>>16924284
Ummmm ok?