>>97576374
I would recommend the PHB, DMG and MM and that's it. There's so much homebrew and glue-on extra bullshit that clutters the game. Ideally make your own, that's what the platform was for, maximum customization.

>>97576392
>Ignore homebrew
>Make your own
What?

>>97576402
Making your own homebrew is different from copying online. Writing your own song is always better than mushing together a bunch of samples. Yes I tried really hard to not make a food analogy.

>>97576374
Core 3 + ToB + XPH.

>>97576404
I applaud your effort.

>>97576404
A new player isn't going to know the first thing about how pieces fit together or why. That'll end with people washing out.

>>97576433
A new player can play/dm with the core 3. Once you get a taste for DND you can use that to design your own thing.

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>>97576374
>TQ
Like i said in the other thread i'm a bit of a rose glasses of nostalgia wearing retard so my pick would be
>core
>unearthed arcana
>book of the vile darkness
...but, as a genuine suggestion to others, i strongly concurr with the other anon that argued for
>core
>tome of battle
>complete warrior

>>97576374
I'd say what this Anon suggested.
>>97576407
or this
>>97576460

Core is enough for casters.
XPH if you can't bother with spell slots, and need more JRPGish 'magic'.
ToB + Complete Warrior if you want martials that don't fucking such by Level ~7.
PHB2 if you want to be generous.
Everything else added ontop is simply too much clutter.

>>97576442
And run headfirst into the same design traps that WotC's designers ran into and eventually learned to avoid. Your disdain for community knowledge is noted, but retarded.

>>97576564
DnD has always been a very personal experience between you and your group. Using someone elses homebrew is like wearing their underwear if you don't know what you're doing. It's how you end up with the ultimate DND skub that is the book of weeaboo fightan magic. You can always pick up the tome of battle later.

>>97576585
This is such a weird take. Do you differentiate between homebrew and published material? The only real difference is that one got paid for it and the other one didn't. Do you not use supplements because they 're somebody else's ideas and based on their personal preferences and experiences?

>>97576585
And if you deny yourself the ability to learn from other peoples' mistakes you're going to make the same ones. You don't learn to play chess by ignoring other peoples play.

>>97576585
If using official rules is the same thing as using homebrew, why even bother with the game at all instead of making up your own game?

>>97576374
>Inspired by a discussion last thread, what five books would you recommend to a new player?
>to a new player
that changes things
core + dungeonscape + I guess rules compendium

>>97576460
>Fosche Tenebre
Hi italanon

>>97576460
italian anon why do your people refuse to learn how to speak english along with the spanish? is it something in the latin language family that makes you averse to a watered down germanic language with a mostly latin vocabulary?

>>97577409
Ciao

>>97577566
What do you mean? I think it's entirely dependent on generation: boomers, along with gen-xers here had french as second language in schools so it's kind of expected for them to struggle hard with english since they didn't tackle with it much, millennials (like me) and thereafter got introduced to english earlier (plus we got wider internet access) so we have the the leg up, comparatively speaking. All my same age friends can entertain a conversation in english, painfully broken for most of them, hilariously accented for the vast majority of them that are articulated enough but in the end it's enough to hold conversations and have enough comprehension to navigate english content. To give you an example in my current gaming group having (including me) 4 millenials and 3 early zoomers only one struggles hard in english in a significant way.
The only problem i have with english and them is they're all fucking lazy bastards that won't read a new ttrpg manual unless it's in Italian but once they're invested they start looking up english supplements by themselves.

>>97577669
well, my friends won't read a new ttrpg manual regardless of language so you have the advantage there

Starting a new game with level 1 party, druid wants to explore buying pet animals to use for fighting.
after looking through book materials, first requests are:
>how many of these
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/canines/dog/breeds/bull-mastiff/
>are available for sale in this small city
and where between these two entries would the price fall
>Dog, guard 25 gp
>Dog, riding 150 gp
he also saw this on the table
>Pseudodragon 200 gp
and asking how they might find and befriend a psuedodragon (with his +1 to Handle Animal) and -3 to Diplomacy

Anyone know of a good quest levels 1 to 4 where pseudodragon hiriling can be the reward?

>>97577737
Well, i have to basically act as a snake oil salesman to have them approach a new game, picking and prodding their interests until i find an opening. For example i have one guy that always was obsessed with pirates since young, needles to say when the series "Black Sails" was airing i leveraged his enthusiasm to have my group start an historical pirates of the caribbean gurps game, which was also possible because gurps 3e was localized in italian so it smoothed the way in for gurps 4e in my group.
But now that i'm getting old i'm content enough if i manage to have 'em sitting their ass and play some goddamn D&D 3.5e, at least 2/5 are autistic enough on it to allow me to go autopilot when running a game, these two handle the rule referencing and helping on the players side of the table smoothly.

>>97577818
coincidentally i also only managed to get them something piratical using Honour and Intrigue. I wish i could get them into gurps. I ve been eyeing Dungeon Fantasy for a long while

>>97577834
Seventh Sea is also good, idk about the newest one but the old one is nice

>>97578025
With psychics in the party throw in some mindflayer/cthulhu stuff

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Vaguely related to OP TQ, assuming you hace to run a game with core only, how would you handle it in a semi-balancend manner?
Nightmare mode: you can't mod the classes and you can't use third part rules, only stuff in the 3 books.

My way to go would to be very tight on resource sarcity gently pushing casters in picking magic item creation feats, also being very anal (or just put in other terms) in arbitration, for example to mitigate the "the druid's bear fills the fighter niche" situation i would treat it for what quite literally is: an empowered animal that has a special connection with the druid but a wild beast nevertheless. You can't simply stroll around everywhere with a fucking bear unless you're constantly keeping it put, you can't have it stroll around towns or delve too deep in ruins, etc...

>>97577798
Local noble's nephew got a pseudodragon after begging his family for it for months and wants to take it for a hunt. The parents know the idiot can't hunt for real, so they hire the PCs to oversee/bodyguard/entertain/fake the hunt/whatever. The noble has a bad time with the pseudodragon, so he tosses it away after the hunt just like any of his other toys/distractions, and the party's already there so they might as well take it in

>>97578076
With only core? Druid/wizard/cleric/sorcerer is a perfectly serviceable party composition. I always wanted to run an all wizard party where everyone is a different specialist trying to one-up each other, but core only constrains a lot of options for that.

>>97578076
Imo for core only 3e is actually a little better. Also i think that the cleric especially isn't the broken shit it is considered without the supplements and the wizard kind of the same.

Additionally i would sit down and have a talk with my friends
>we all know how the druid, the cleric and the wizard punch above their weight class. have fun but don't try to break the game

I also wouldn't mod the classes but i would do a little work on the feats so that feats based classes don't suck so hard. And use the pathfinder thing of getting a feat every 2 levels instead of 3.
Don't know if that's cheating. I think even without that i could get a perfectly servicable game going till levels 10-14 which is where 3.5 stops being fun for me either way

>>97578103
thanks for the idea. I think I will use exactly that. Just need to come up with a mini quest for a hunt.
We are playing Rise of the Runelords and I the adventure is made for PF1s fast track experience, but I would prefer to use normal track to give the new players time to learn the system better.
So a couple of mini quests are in order.
Been reading through the first adventure and found this in description of one of the town's locations:

>Named for its owner’s aff ection for large red mastiff s, two to three of which can always be seen lounging about nearby, Red Dog Smithy is owned by a bald and powerfully muscled man named Das Korvut (LN male human fi ghter 1/expert 3). Das’s temper is, perhaps, his true claim to fame—he has little patience for customers, and even less for everyone else.

I think I will use this for the dogs - set up a skill challenge or another mini quests if the players want to convince Das to sell some of his hounds to them. Maybe in return for getting him some special materials or something.

>>97578076
I dont think you really have to do anything special. My players arent optimizers like me. The wizard would have lots of splash Evocations for damage, not more subtle stuff. I would however take the chance to do something fun.

Everyone plays two characters, a martial & a caster.

Wizard-Fighter
Cleric-Monk
Sorcerer-Rogue
Druid-Barbarian

All martials are the sworn bodyguards of their respective caster

>>97578684
I actually like your idea, kinda like with Ars Magica where you play with a wizard and a grog.

>>97577798
>Pseudodragon 200 gp
I don't know where in Pathfinder you found that price, but worth noting that in 3.5 it costs 20k for a Pseudodragon hatchling and 10k for a Pseudodragon Egg.
>Anyone know of a good quest levels 1 to 4 where pseudodragon hiriling can be the reward?
How about fighting an evil Sorcerer(maybe a kobold?) who has one enslaved as their familiar and making it possible to free and befriend it.
Generally though you can just befriend one by offering it food and treating it well and they accompany people for long periods of time. You can probably throw in a possible encounter of one into any other quest, maybe even making them the quest giver.

>>97578076
I would just run a martial only campaign and avoid the problem entirely. My friends aren't casterfags to the point where they would say no to that.
Probably a themed one like everyone being members of the underground of a city, or a mercenary band etc.
Have the full casters be actually rare.

does 3rd edition have rules on the process hiring hirelings?
>how many are available in a given settlement
>how many can you actually hire
>how much money they want for a dangerous job such as supporting you in a hunt for a powerful monster or exploring a monster den
using the demographic breakdowns, I can get a number of class/level individuals, but I would assume most of those are employed already either as guards, or mercenaries or the like...

Also I don't know how big of a markup they would charge if they are being hired to help hunt for a band of marauding ogres or help chase off a young dragon that settled nearby.

>parents threw out my copies of DMG + PHP + MM as trash when I was a teen to save space.
>they are out of print an expensive now

u d jchjfkqlqk fhshjsw d I'll just go fucking die I guess then thanks dad

>>97578713
>>97578713
PF 1 has that in Adventurer's Armory
>Pseudodragon: Found in temperate forests across the Inner Sea region, pseudodragons are intelligent enough that Andorens consider their sale slavery. A handful of pseudodragons offer themselves for hire to adventurers; Absalom is the only place to find pseudodragons that are legitimately for hire.
and lists it as 200gp on page 21.
That does seem cheap for a flying companion that has telepathy and hide +20
I note though that PF1's version is much weaker, primarily the attack
>sting +6 (1d3–2 plus poison), bite +6 (1d2–2)
so it can no longer reliably put anyone to sleep since 2/3rd of the time the sting does no damage.
AC 16 instead of 18, SR 12 instead of 19 means its more vulnerable too.
Where did you find those 3.5 prices?

>>97578756
I feel your pain. When i first got to university my mother threw my old tazos pokemon collection if anyone even remembers what that is along with a lot of cool illustrated encyclopedias that i had read so much as i kid that theirs hardcovers were kinda done so my mom thought they were trash..

>>97578822
no 'see invisibility' on PF 1 version too.
I think if I do end up giving one to them as companion it wouldn't participate in fights and serve strictly as a scout
Even than, would use the 3rd edition's skills:
>Diplomacy +2, Hide +20*, Listen +7, Search +6, Spot +7, and Survival +1 (+3 following tracks)
which don't give it anything for Move Silently.
It could only observe from afar and maybe give early warnings.

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>>97578822
>Where did you find those 3.5 prices?
it's from the og monster Manual
>PSEUDODRAGON COMPANIONS
>A pseudodragon may very rarely seek humanoid companionship.
>It stalks a candidate silently for days, reading his or her thoughts and judging his or her deeds. If it finds the candidate promising, the pseudodragon presents itself as a potential companion and observes the other’s reaction. If the candidate seems delighted and promises to take very good care of it, the pseudodragon accepts.
>Otherwise, it flies away.
>A pseudodragon’s personality has been described as catlike.
>At times the creature seems arrogant, demanding, and less than helpful. It is willing to serve—provided that it is well fed and groomed, and receives lots of attention. The companion must pamper it and make it feel like the most important thing in his or her life. If the pseudodragon is mistreated or insulted, it will leave or worse, play pranks when least expected.
>Pseudodragons particularly dislike cruelty and will not serve cruel masters.
>A pseudodragon egg can fetch a price of up to 10,000 gp, and a hatchling as much as 20,000 gp. Pseudodragons have a life span of 10 to 15 years. Like dragons, they are attracted to bright, shiny objects.

>>97579089
I wonder why it was priced so highly.
Based on this same source book, pegasus eggs are only 2k, young 3k and a trained one would go for ~4k.
You can have a squadron of flying knights for the price of one semi-loyal pet?

>>97579129
yeah not really sure myself, though it being able to use blindsense and telepathy to alert you about hidden enemies is pretty neat. As is its poison being able to knock out people for hours.

>>97578748
Leadership rules in the dmg?

>>97579089
I read this entry as a kid like 50000 times wishing I could have one as a pet and me and my dog and lil dragon could hang out together (only child if that's not obvious)

>>97579129
It IS a dragon so there's doubtlessly a prestige thing attached, they also may be rarer. There may also be like, actual pegasus husbandry since they're a lot more immediately valuable than a pseudodragon

>>97579089
This image actually reminded me that the purple worm sort of "shrunk" in 3.5 since the monster manual lists it as gargantuan, but the official miniature they released of it is only huge.
I love those damn things though. I don't know why, but giant wurms appeal to me on an almost spiritual level, it's why I've considered building an ashworm dragoon even though that class is ASS

I need thematic and scary weapon suggestions for a Fleshgrinding weapon. Harpoon has been suggested last thread but I 2ouldnt mind hearing from others

>>97579830
maybe a Trident? but like styled infernally like ones typically associated with the devil.

>>97579830
Daggers. Thrown daggers.

>>97579265
I think anyone who still cares about D&D 3.5 in 2026 wanted a pet dragon at some point

>>97579089
hold up; sleep poison?
temperate forests?
neutral good?

NIGGER WHAT
why dont regular elves have sleep arrows like the drow have sleep bolts?

>>97579261
those aren't for hirelings, only cohort and followers. Or do you mean not to allow any hirelings at all and require leadership feat to get any help?

1st level party gets quite a bit of starting gold. Mine has 80g free to start with and their first easy fights will probably net them a few dozen gold more from loot.

If they hire them at rates well above the DMG, even 2 gold per day instead of 2 sp for a level 1 warrior, that still allows them to trivialize all early level content if I don't apply some limiters.

>>97576374
How do I convince my group that this is good? They're all OSRfags and think anything made after AD&D is unplayable.

>>97581102
You need to find a problem that 3.5 solves, whether that's a character build that isn't supported or friction with a system that doesn't have a rules structure for XYZ skill checks. Convincing someone to switch is hard, convincing someone that a thing already annoying them isn't a problem if they switch is easier.

>>97581190
>You need to find a problem that 3.5 solves, whether that's a character build that isn't supported or friction with a system that doesn't have a rules structure for XYZ skill checks.
That's the problem. They don't care about any of that and say builds are "lame" and that the GM should just make a call for skill checks.

>>97579868
Kinda basic
>>97579862
Not much different from the harpoon

>>97581197
Well then do they have ANY complaints about the older systems that the later ones address? Also, not to make some kind of "Reddit argument", but builds have been a thing in some form or fashion since the first real games, in fact a "build" in those older systems was literally something you had to actively fight for and also required you to get insanely lucky with your dice rolls at character creation.

>>97581244
>Well then do they have ANY complaints about the older systems that the later ones address?
We occasionally have arguments over combat being too slow or lethal or things getting stale, but they're so far convinced 3.5e wouldn't fix any of those things.
>but builds have been a thing in some form or fashion since the first real games,
I agree, but when I tried to argue this they told me it's different because in OSR you have to play to decide your "build" (They wouldn't even call it that) and don't have direct control over how your character is going to develop mechanically.

>>97581262
And that's a... positive to them? I dunno man they might be too far gone.

>>97581282
I've been trying to convince them it's not but I'm not good at articulating myself at the table so the arguments just go nowhere.

>>97576519
> ToB
Yawn.
> PHB2
Celerity
This is why I stopped coming here

>>97581309
Stay gone retard.

>>97581102
>>97581291
NTA, but what are you trying to convince them of anyways?
To migrate from their beloved OSR over to the dreaded 3.5e or to play 3 or 4 sessions of 3.5e because their friend has an itch/always wanted to try/haven't played in a long time, etc etc?
3.5e is more than just builds, there's so much fucking content you can advertise it on themes, cool monsters, sub-systems, etc.

>>97581318
Ideally they'd migrate, but I'd like to get them to at least try it. I have some ideas for a short campaign that I could maybe condense to a one shot, but everytime I try to bring it up it gets argued down

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>>97581097
Nta and i'm not aware of any rules specific of 3.5e but you can probably easily port them from ad&d.

What do you think of this solution i just put together?
Each 2 weeks you can roll the number available 1st level hirelings in a settlement using the "Highest-level locals" table in the DMG p.139, using the dice result for the number of individuals available as-is instead of applying the given formula for generating npcs from higher level to lower. Enrolling them requires a Gather informations roll DC 10 per day, each successful attempt allows you to enroll 1d4 hirelings, you can creatively apply the Leadership modifiers (picrel) to the Gather informations roll if you think they should be relevant. No matter how many hirelings are available a single PC can only manage a max number of hirelings equal to their level + charisma mod.

>>97581309
Stay fucking gone bitch.

>>97581197
Explain to them that skill checks are like roll under stat checks when the dc is 10 and hey have the option of variable difficulty withing the system unlike rolling under stats.

>>97581102
You don't. If they don't care about the things 3rd edition did which was versatility of character concepts and a plethora of classes, as well as different build paths then they wont like it.

If you still wanna try i would simply run a more oldschool style game for them stealing the rules that are lacking from 2e

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>>97581102
Simple: you bite the DM bullet and run the game, just ask them to humor you for a short adventure. To entice them focus on the skirmish aspect of it explaining that 3.5e especially rewards positioning and punishes reckless actions, explain that resource sarcity is still just as much central but only more granular and how everything is unified mechanically in a tight and clean way. Focus specifically on skills (since it's the main criticism point you'll generally get from osr guys) using as argument case the search skill, this showcases how skills don't override the osr-style world interaction (as they expect to) but enhances it: you roll your seach skill only when you're in a stressful scenario (the attempt takes 1 round) and the mechanics still requires to specify where to search (you can only search a 5ft square in one attempt) and how (which allows for the DM to adjudicate the DC and modifiers situationally), conversely the game clearly defines ceilings for your character when not in a immediate stressful situations (you don't need to roll for a passing look to a specified place, using the "take 10" rule) or even when you have all the time of the world to take a place apart (take 20, which also clearly defines time). You can also show the character advancement rules in the DMG section "How PCS advance" which allows for a game loop almost 1:1 identical to the AD&D gold based one.

Once you drive these points home D&D 3.5e variegated character design potential will look way more inviting to them.

>>97581380
I checked out the Ad&D ruleset for this. Morale checks seem like a good way to prevent abuse - after a couple die, others will be quick to break and harder to hire.
Thanks.

>>97577566
> is it something in the latin language family that makes you averse to a watered down germanic language with a mostly latin vocabulary?

Not an Italian, but Latin (and Italian after it) actually has a grammatical structure that has more in common with Japanese (Subject Object Verb) than English (Subject Verb Object).

Quori Ectoplasmic Armor Shards but instead of making you look like a monster it turns you into a sentai style hero.

Do they stack with Monk's/Ninja's Unarmed Defense? I think they would but I want to be sure

>>97587762
The description says the projection is akin to a physical object and specifically mentions armor check penalties as a concept, even if it doesn't have one. That makes my gut instinct that it wouldn't count as unarmored for the purposes of monk class features, but by the same token I'm not sure why they'd even exist in the game if they didn't work for monks. A slotless amulet of natural armor that has penalties and takes standard actions to activate each of them isn't the most OP shit in the world and Monk needs all the help it can get.

So I guess go for it?

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>>97587466
>Latin (and Italian after it) actually has a grammatical structure that has more in common with Japanese (Subject Object Verb)

>know enough about latin to call this bullshit
>be tradcath which contractually obligues you to use italian pronounciation of latin

>>97587466
Well, i can't confirm or deny your argument because my nihongo isn't jouzu but i always found interesting that, until not long ago, in italy it was considered proper protocol to introduce yourself saying your surname first and your name second, much like in japan.

>>97590182
He can do a Henshin/Magical Girl Transformation activating each one in turn. Or maybe they go around with a few always on & activate the others when needed

>>97577798
Riding dog and Mastiff stats are identical at a glance, so the only actual difference is the riding dog is trained for both combat and riding, while the Mastiff will only be trained for combat. All the other combat trained variant animals I see are about 33% more expensive than the untrained variant, so I guess I'd just subtract 33%, rounds down to an even 100gp.

>>97595213
It's always funny how costs in D&D skyrocket the second it's useful to a player. A cow is only 10gp.

>>97595578
How much for a dungeon bred cow?

Planar Ally line of spells is threatening to break my game. Players realized that summoning a Ghaele and paying her 10-20k in treasure to support them for a few weeks, will make it trivial to earn that money back with extra.
I've been delaying this by holding them to the PF1 stat block, where said ghaele is 13HD and requires Greater Planar Ally. But it looks like the cleric they've been shepherding through the campaign will hit that level 15 soon.
idk what to do now with this line of spells.
Ghaeles are kind of obscene in their stat block
>at will Greater Invisibility + Light Form + Light Rays
>invisible, flying, incorporeal outsider
>throwing out 4d12 per round, touch +15, bypasses all DR
>136 average HP + 75 temp hp from Bolstering Pact
and that's one. They looted a magic item they don't need that's worth 120k and are talking about calling up 7 of these and letting them loose on the end-game dungeon
What's a DM supposed to do once players start pulling this kind of crap?
>every high level caster happens to have Banishment on hand now
>the evil deity your are opposing has personally interfered to send a host of high level demons against your celestial hit squad, they fought to a stand still and slaughtered each other
>your cleric's deity is calling him up to heaven now. You win the game - he entrusts you guys this minor artifact, now roll a new PC and no more clerics
any other suggestions?

>>97595581
The one time my party ran into a cow in a dungeon it was a person that had been polymorphed, and while we did have a druid that could speak with animals said druid did not deign to inform the party that the cow wasn't a cow. As such when we eventually got the cow back to town and it tried to escape the stables, the innkeeper turned it into steaks.

>>97595743
Any money they spend on calling Outsiders is money they're not spending on themselves, and will be a finite resource of time that they have access to the Ghaeles before they say "alright boys it's been fun" and bounce.

You're basically asking the equivalent of "my player has Harm which can instantly win against all of my enemies", high level magic just straight up has some insane nonsense you can do with baseline spells, and it's now your job as the GM to match that energy with equally inane crazy BS from the enemy side. Gone are the days of your big bads being "Johnny two-fingers and his band of miscreants".

>>97595743
Any fortress worth that kind of firepower has banishment et. al. as part of the standard defensive suite. Summoning is a powerful endgame tool on all sides, you're not over-fitting to the party's tactics by having defenses against it. Also there's only so many times you can pull that trick before you start getting a reputation for it, so anyone specifically opposed to the party will know that they're middlemen for the actual heavy hitters and plan accordingly.

>>97595792
Only temporarily. Money you spend on consumables is supposed to get back to you. Massed Ghaele in particular can be VERY disruptive to anti-summon tactics because Wall of Force breaks line of effect.

What you want to stop this is actually Ray Deflection because you'll force them into trying to dispel you or using other SLAs or spells instead.

>>97595792
>>97595806
>>97595857
well, looking at the city's defenses I think I can deal with 7 ghaeles once if several 'boss' type creatures within react to counter such an assault.
my bigger problem is how its trivial to reuse the tactic unless I than go out of my way to hunt that cleric down. 15,500 gold per ghaele is just too easy for a level 15 cleric to acquire. I would expect that in any 'fair' combat, if those ghaele's manage to kill even one of the big defenders and the party gets away with the loot from that kill, the NPCs equipment will easily cover summoning the next strike force the next week.

The other side of this is how I would imagine this could play out in-universe with sensible opponents
>match that energy with equally inane crazy BS from the enemy side.
given that this plan has the players testing the city's defenses with a CR19 assault
matching it would be something like:
> the two dozen high level casters who would have to unite to repel that assault
>than immediately use divination magic to commune for 'who did this, where are they'
>track down the PCs and come down on them with an equally overwhelming strike CR 19 -20 force.
The pcs right now are the 14, close to 15th level cleric and his 3 henchmen levels 6,7,8, so matching that would essentially be just executing the party with a tat-for-tat answer.

btw, they've never used a called ally in combat before. By RAW, should PCs be getting the experience for the kills made by their called allies or should I be treating said allies as independent NPCs?
I am thinking it would just be an entirely separate combat encounter with PCs observing from the ground as ghaeles do their own thing.

>>97595857
wouldn't wall of force than bar them from using their own gaze too?
The range here seems like the biggest challenge in countering them because if ghaeles are staying 300ft up, Banishment/Dismissal can't reach them and its pointless trying to do HP damage to them because they have CLW at will.

>>97595987
No, gazes are specifically called out as an exception.

>>97595987
Here, I'll put it like this, why not let the party "get away" with this once or twice, then the enemy gets wise and uses their resources to hire a bunch of Devils or Demons to fight the Celestials? There's a bunch of Fiends that would drool at the mouth at the opportunity to kill a bunch of Ghaeles.

>>97595213
I think in this case I will keep the price at 150gp because the only place in the module I found that might sell such hounds is a smith that trains them as his pets and is brief blurb hints to me that he wouldn't be fond of the idea of his pets being used as meat shields.

>>97596024
>let the party "get away" with this once or twice, then the enemy gets wise
I am liking this option - I can spend some of the lesser minions to flood the zone and make sure to recover the magical possessions of any of the bigger npcs that ghaeles might kill on the first attack before being repelled, than all that loot can now serve as the payment for the demons who will be called in to repel the next assault and perhaps counter attack.

If the PCs want to keep this going, they will have to summon their celestial for days at a time if they want more than one. The bad guys only need to pay the price for minutes at a time to respond to an attack in progress so they will be able to just overwhelm them with more and stronger allies even if only staying defensive.

>There's a bunch of Fiends that would drool at the mouth at the opportunity to kill a bunch of Ghaeles.
Any specific recommendations on whom to call forth to counter ghaeles? It has to be Chaotic or Neutral evil in this case.
I imagine it would need to be able to Dimension Anchor the ghaels to prevent teleportation and flying away in light form, or be able to spike ~200 damage or something.

>>97596703
>Any specific recommendations on whom to call forth to counter ghaeles
nta, but the obvious choice would probably be any Yugoloth, as they're neutral evil fiends that are mercenary in their nature, they'd serve as a fitting evil counterpart to the simialry independent Ghaele. And there are a bunch of that are similarly powerful.
>I imagine it would need to be able to Dimension Anchor the ghaels to prevent teleportation and flying away in light form
I mean, Ghaeles are still fighting for good, you can probably keep them around if they think you're gonna do a lot of harm if they're not around to stop you. Like just have the Ghaele know that the fiends are gonna rampage against nearby civillians or something if they leave. You can even have it be found out through detect thoughts which Ghale can use at will. That is if the bad guys dont outright have a plan going on that requires Ghaele intervention to stop.

>>97595578
I just looked up how much a cow costs in the usa
from what I read, its rougly 2-3k depending on breed and a few other things

go google "how much does a combat-trained dog cost", because you won't believe me if I tell you

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I have some questions that I'd like to see various peoples answers to

>how would you stat a human king?
>an elven king?
>a dwarven king?
>an orc king?
>a goblin king?
or queen, I guess

just what you think of when you see those words, without any additional context
I don't want to see "fighter", give me class, level, build basics and gear basics.

Divine metamagic cleric with persistent spell. Cheese of the highest caliber or just a good build?
I'm joining a new group and don't want to come off as too much of a powergamer.

>>97597291
Without nightsticks, it's a cleric and has the same high floor and flexibility that cleric implies. Using up a seventh level slot for a day's worth of divine favor is whatever. With nightsticks it's cheese and you'd be rightfully clocked as a munchkin.

>>97597291
Depends on how much you stretch the rules to abuse things like multiple pools, stacking night sticks, etc.
The thing about DMM is that it costs a whopping 7 turn attempts to persist a single spell.
My first character, which I'm playing, is one. Since I knew that no matter what he'd be pretty strong, I sort of gimped him by loosing 2 caster levels from the get go then another at lvl 15 in order to take some fun options, plus a sub-optimal stat array.

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>>97597291
The cheese build of DMM: Persistent is Human Cleric of Planning (extend spell) and Undeath (extra turning), Persistent spell, divine metamagic so you can start doing it at 1st
Then every level after that is extra turning (save maybe power attack)
Prioritize getting a bead of karma to increase caster level for daily buffs, not just the persistented ones but ones like magic vestment on armor and animated shield and Spikes spell on your wooden weapon
And add in a ring of enduring arcana on top of that to make your spells almost impossible for CR appropriate enemies to dispel
By lvl 7 with divine power you are better than ANY martial class, by 9th with righteous might you make ALL of them jokes because while you've invested like all your feats, its still only six or so spells off your daily list
You can even swap it up use mass lesser vigor on the party to give them fast healing 1 all day making hp attrition (which is already sorta a joke because of CLW wands) a thing of the past, but it really rubs it into the DM's face cause he cant even say "well they're at least spending gold"

DMM: maximize and quicken are good build choices on par or better with other turn attempt stuff like devotion feats
DMM persist, especially laid out the way above is should rightly give you eyerolls
>presenting that the dm at our table gets you picrel

>>97576374
2 questions anons
1 What's your knowledge on the worlds largest dungeon? I'm wanting to look at it from an OSR perspective
2 Do you think there's a space in the TTRPG community for a 3.5 equivalent of the OSR? as a 3,5val with modern retroclones so that newer players would consider picking it up. (And before you ask no, i'm not thinking just pathfinder, but a full blown 3.5 retroclone)

>>97598339
You want to sneak in Spell Girding for one feat to stop the obvious counter dead.

>>97598360
>1 What's your knowledge on the worlds largest dungeon?
I have played it. More than once, started in the beginning of one campaign which fell apart. Cameoed for a session or two at different higher level points.
This is the most accurate breakdown/review of the WLD:
https://writeups.letsyouandhimfight.com/oriongates/the-worlds-largest-dungeon/
Its long and its brutal and its facts

As for already made for or converted to 3.5, DCC #51 Castle Whiterock (starts at 1st), Goodman Games Dark Tower (starts 8-10), Sword and Sorcery Caverns of Thracia (starts 4-6) are your best bets.
It's telling that the two of three are famous osr conversion.
Also, I've had fine success just converting Stonehell to 3.5

>>97598360
I've only read the world's largest dungeon in passing, can't comment much there.

As far as retroclones though, I think you run into two issues; what's the point, and what's the problem you're trying to solve. The 3.0/3.5 rules base is already so modular and so lush with options and sidegrades that any potential replacement is more likely to supplement 3.5 rather than supplant it. And while there's certainly issues in 3.5's balance and rule density, there's no broad consensus on what to sand down or elaborate upon. Some people think that a basic fighter should have at least two cantrips and some SLAs, some think that the problems started when a cleric could do more than cast cure light wounds twice a day. Whatever you wrote would be scavenged for parts, to the point I think you'd be better off writing Unearthed Arcana 2 than a full rulebook.

>>97598419
>what's the point,
I'd say most "modern" newschool tabletop players are extremely hesitant in picking up an old rulebook. a retroclone IMO would mainly be to present the rules to a newer audience.
>what's the problem you're trying to solve.
IMO there's a bit of an empty space in the market for people who like 3.5's crunchy build systems that 5.5/5.0 doesn't really cover.

>>97598434
Sorry, I may have been unclear by what was meant by "problem". I fully agree that 5.0 is a paper-thin and lopsided mangling of 3.5's basic structure, and also that there's some potential reticence for the average TTRPG player to play D&D but not play the most recent one. Typically people either default to current or break off into niche shit.

My point was moreso that if you're trying to modernize 3.5 you ostensibly have a design ethos regarding which aspects need to be removed or altered to make it palatable. I'm curious as to what you feel that should be, as I haven't seen consensus in house rules or community sentiment.

>>97598456
>My point was moreso that if you're trying to modernize 3.5 you ostensibly have a design ethos regarding which aspects need to be removed or altered to make it palatable.
Oh, i'm also sorry. I'm not trying to change the rules, what i'm suggesting is literally just a full restatement of 3.5's rules as written, like how OSE is just a restatement of BX. Make the text less verbose and more concise in wording while keeping the actual mechanics identical, just wrapping it up in a new coat of paint as it were without WOTC's IP in it.

>>97598464
Ah, I see. That would be interesting, though one could make the compelling argument that a rewriting of 3.5's core rules to clarify structure and consolidate keywords is what lead to 4e. I'm at the point of familiarity where I find some of the cruft charming but that's definitely a more compelling project. I was imagining someone taking a second swing at Pathfinder 1e.

>>97598481
> though one could make the compelling argument that a rewriting of 3.5's core rules to clarify structure and consolidate keywords is what lead to 4e.
Interesting point, though i'd say that edition did change the rules up into being it's own game, while what i'm envisioning keeps all the rules intact, just rephrased in their explanations with a modern day presentation. Think "OSE" for 3.5

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>>97598495
Nta but isn't that basically already done by the Rules Compendium?

>>97598519
NTA, but it makes no small amount of new errata kinda ruining the point of the book, and still misses quite a bit of structural stuff.

>>97597114
this is exactly the point anon. these are modern prices and do not reflect on the realities of the pseudomedieval world

>>97598360
>worlds largest dungeon
It technically fulfills the requirement of using every monster in the Monster Manual, but I don't actually recommend running it.

>>97598360
>1 What's your knowledge on the worlds largest dungeon? I'm wanting to look at it from an OSR perspective
I am only familiar with it by name.
>2 Do you think there's a space in the TTRPG community for a 3.5 equivalent of the OSR? as a 3,5val with modern retroclones so that newer players would consider picking it up.
Not really. It would probably have to do it's own thing. I could see something in the form of a basic line the way shadowdark is basic 5e that has a very specific theme and playstyle as well as incorporating some basic goodstuff fixes by default like fractal bab and saves scaling, possibly some restructuring of numbers etc

>>97598360
>2 Do you think there's a space in the TTRPG community for a 3.5 equivalent of the OSR?
Initially I thought that was what NSR was supposed to be.

>>97598796
>that was what NSR was supposed to be.
NSR is just a term made up by the BroSR crowd to shame anything that deviates too much from their one true wayism. There is no NSR, there's only OSR, OSR adjacent and Not OSR (AKA 3.0 and everything after it)

Opinions on Incarnum? Is it worth delving into it?

>>97599120
Pretty cool. Doesn't fit every kind of character, but it's a neat, flexible option that can be slotted into a lot of places pretty easily, and is still interesting enough to build a whole character around. I'd say it's a strong supplement and would recommend it.

>>97599120
i love it conceptually. the main problem is that it isn't properly integrated imo nor is it divorced enough to play with it on it's own

>>97599120
It's a lot of fun but it runs into similar issue sas ToB and Psionics, just ten times worse.

You know how with a lot of DMs you'll ask if ToB or psionics are allowed and they'll groan and shrug their shoulders? Imagine that but you also have to explain to them what the fuck Incarnum is.
It's kind of a big ask: You're basically demanding that they learn a whole new system that they will never use again, for a single character in their campaign because no NPCs are gonna be using incarnum either, and everything they learn will be of no use once the campaign is over because no one ever is going to ask them to play it

>>97599120
It's an incredibly disjointed system with little use cases for anything. Totemist is okay, but Soulborn basically uses nothing of Incarnum.
I played an Incarnate from 15th level in the campaign we closed put yesterday, my strength was that i could become immune to just about anything, but hitting a level-appropriate foe was extra hard due to 1/2 bab, DCs are terrible to raise and offer no benefit, and weapon selection is also terrible due to only having simple proficiency.

>>97599120
It's probably one of the coolest things to come out of 3.5e.
There's a lot of underwhelming shit in the book, but this being D&D 3.5e, you can always always take the good from here, the good from there, and make something workable.

>>97599120
Incarnum is nice but it suffers from the same issue as Pendulum Monsters in YGO - it's actually three separate mechanics rather than one.
While you can use them independently they're kind of ass and filled with exceptions ("incarnum feats can't have their essentia reallocated", "blademeld doesn't meet prereqs", "your DM decides what happens when you bind an item to a chakra"), generally forcing you to swallow the whole package at once.

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Manyshot is for surprise rounds and readied-attacks.

>>97601011
And bullying with speed advantage.

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If you play 3.5 today, obviously you didn't like the direction 4e, 5e or Pathfinder went. If someone were to design a new edition of D&D to your tastes, what kind of game would you want it to be? What is it in D&D 3.5 that you prefer over the other editions, and what would you want changed or improved upon?

What would YOUR version of D&D be like?

>>97601330
I actually liked 3.5 and Pathfinder 1st ed.
I use them more or less interchangeably when I DM.

>>97601330
The amount of options. If I have to be completely honest, I would have been more than happy to completely switch over to 5e if they had bothered to add even as little as half the classes, races, subclasses, etc that 3.5/PF had. But they didn't.

>>97601330
What I like about 3.5 is the breadth of options, and how those pieces dovetail and combine in interesting ways. In some ways I even think 4e had the right idea in focusing on statuses and keywords that were important to all classes and allowed for synergies both in an individual build and within a party. The main issue is that all that mechanical weight was purely for combat.

I think my main tweak to 3.5 would be to let martials do more fantastical feats of strength and daring. A fifth level wizard can piss lightning and shit thunder, but you have to be well into the epic levels before a fighter can cleave a mountain or a rogue can steal a thought from someone's head. Players should be rewarded for being clever and operating within their archetype, but I also understand that flexibility is in many ways diametrically opposed to the level of crunch to the combat that I also enjoy. I've seen systems like ICON try to get around that by straight up having a combat class and non-combat class for each character, but that's a lot of bookkeeping.

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>>97601330

I would trim the fat from the feat system. What I mean is that 3.5 has a lot of feats that are just "+X to Y" which are boring and tend to be underpowered, but are prerequisites for more interesting feats. I think the designers thought that those higher-ranked feats are too OP and used the prereqs to keep PCs from becoming too powerful, but actually very few of those feats are actually that powerful. Apart from charger builds, hardly characters use or depend on combat feats because they're generally not that good.

I would also lean more into the generic classes variant from Unearthed Arcana. A lot of class features could be feats, which would simplify character building qite a bit (at my table people tend to use a lot of alternative class features, which is basically treating class features as feats but with extra steps).

I would also get rid of a lot of the more boring spells, which are buffs and debuffs that add "+X to Y" or "-X to Y". I actually like D&D's spellcasting, but often it is most optimal to play in a boring way. I'd probably reduce the number of save-or-die spells too, just for gameplay reasons (it can be a bit anticlimactic if the final boss simply keels over from one spell, and if he doesn't then the wizard wasted an action which isn't that fun either).

I would also make something like Tome of Battle a core feature, without the shitty "sekrit kung fu sooper speshul teknneeks" fluff.

This one's probably controversial, since it is such a part of D&D's identity, but I'd reduce the number of ability scores from six to three: Strength, Agility, and Intelligence. Strength would cover both Strength and Constitution but not affect HP, Intelligence would be a catch-all for mental ability scores but not give bonus skill points or languages, and Agility would be Dexterity but with a more accurate name. HP and skills would just come from your class and level. Reducing the number of ability scores would make it easier to explain to newbs.

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>>97601330
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=22405664&postcount=1

It's too much work for me to bother with, but I'd want:
>armor as damage reduction
>a "defense score" that works like Bab except its your touch AC, shields raise it and all but the lightest armors lower it
>I kinda want a spell point system with known spells but I also kinda like the vancian system (they each have their strengths)
>theres something missing from overland travel but its hard to put my finger on it
>some rules for dragons-dogma-esque grabbing and throwing enemies or climbing on them
>it could use better social mechanics but I don't really care for that anyway

I like D&D for its simulationist, combat-focused, loot/logistics/exploration, 3d, player-freedom game style. I don't care for narrativist shit. 3.5 gets out of hand too quickly; between the too-high powerlevel and the splatbooks and extreme caster favoritism (this is why I stay close to core and dont go past 12th level, not to mention my extensive houserules for balance).

>>97601474
>I would also lean more into the generic classes variant from Unearthed Arcana
yeah, good point
barbarians and fighters could be one class with different paths or even just feat selection, as could cleric/druid and sorcerer/wizard
bards/rangers/paladins are basically multiclasses
>ToB
yes, a more mundane set of boosts/moves/counters/stances would go a LOOOOOOOOONG way in making combat better
actually, you could have similar stuff for every class/character type, not just the warriors
>dex/agi
now that you bring it up, I like what underrail did in splitting dex into dex and agi to keep dex from being such a power stat

>>97601330
People might argue that it veers too closely to "weaboo fightan' majik" but I feel like more tabletop systems, whether it be 3.5, PF, or any other D&D-like should incorporate "forced movement" into combat as a baseline assumption rather than the exception. I'd imagine many of us would love to talk about how simulationist 3.5 is but in reality one of the most core aspects of a real life fight when you're dealing with high power levels like what you'd find in fights where people would have strength scores over 18 would inevitably involve bodies getting tossed all over the place from the amount of force being imposed on people.

I've toyed with the idea of implementing things like "for every 5 points of damage you'd inflict, you can subtract that much to move a struck enemy up to 5 ft away from your square", sort of like an amped up version of Knockback, but instead of being a feat it's a core assumption of the system.

>>97601330
I like the depth and variety of options, and the relative transparency between monsters and characters. Level adjustment is the mechanic I most dislike; I'd rather say plainly that some characters are just weaker than others and are supposed to be. People will still play humans over giants even if giants are technically stronger, and people will still play muggles even if they're weaker. I don't think it's a flaw, but rather, an opportunity for the game to respond to many different approaches.

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>>97576392
>>97576402

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>>97601563

>>97601539
hackmaster 5e has knockback rules so it can be done. maybe check out the system if you are interested in a more low fantasy simulationist dnd because it does that better than most imo

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>>97601539
there are some options for that already, but in general striking someone with a lethal weapon isnt going to send them flying
imagine hitting a toddler or a small dog with a baseball bat; they aren't going to go flying; you'd probably knock them down (and kill them but thats beside the point) but they'd stay in their square
I do think a 28 str giant should probably be able to just grab you and throw you, and I have some houserules for that
I also added a rule that if you grapple as part of a charge, you can make a free trip attempt (this benefits anything with pounce and/or improved grab), and I gave some animals a free knockdown attempt with some attacks, and I took a note from frostburn and gave several animals the "toss" ability

>>97601330
I'll third the options accreted over its lifespan, and have thought about how I'd go about condensing that into a reasonably concise core rulebook set so it has a nice variety of subsystems right out of the gate instead of over half the PHB being just Vancian casting. Have entertained the thought of attempting to make "widgets" not subsystem specific, so stuff like "throw sword spinning to hit everyone in a line then it bounces back to you" has a single entry referenced as a feat, martial maneuver, magic spell, psionic power, and so on with each reference describing its subsystem-specific constraints and improvements.

>>97601602
>there are some options for that already, but in general striking someone with a lethal weapon isnt going to send them flying
With normal human strength. When you are swinging a club that weighs 50 pounds at 50 mph as is all too plausible of a high-level Barbarian's Strength, it very much can.

>>97601330
Man, that's hard, but I agree with >>97601365. The sheer breadth of stuff is a big thing for me. Also, the symmetry between PCs, NPCs, and monsters.
I think the simplest answer would be cleaned up and better organized version of 3.5e, with better tags and indices and the like.
Something like a full rewrite with the hindsight of all content and the knowledge of how that content interacts, what's missing, what's contradictory, etc.
Fundamentally, I really like 3.5e as is, warts and all, but I'm not some veteran that's been playing it for decades now.

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>>97601330
Well my Dream 3.75e would have some major clean up by removing redundant or poorly designed options, then consolidating core classes vs prestige ones (as-in having the generic archetypes being exclusively the core/base classes and the specific ones being exclusively prestige classses), turning all animal companion / familiars class features in class exclusive feats (so the party doesn't became a fucking traveling zoo by default) and integrating ToB maneuver/stances in non magical core classes by default.

Either that or FantasyCraft.

>>97601850
>Either that or FantasyCraft.
Which one was fantasy craft?

>>97601861
This one:
https://www.scribd.com/document/240029989/Fantasy-Craft-2nd-Printing-Oef

...from the same guys that made SpyCraft. To be fair i never had a chance in trying it out, so it may have it's share of issues i'm not aware of, but from a superficial look it gives me the impression of superb synthesis of what i like of 3.5e in a extensive "core" of sort.

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>>97601903
Fantasycraft had a lot of good ideas, but overall I think its worse than 3.5. The biggest thing is its narrativist and very social-minded, but basically communist when it comes to loot. I think taking the best of fantasycraft and applying it to 3.5 is the optimal choice, but its a lot of work and I'm not up for it.

>>97601937
What are the standout "best parts" of fantasy craft?

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>>97602004
>>97601506
armor as damage reduction
a defense score
a spell point/known spells system
better feats, especially weapons getting special uses through weapon mastery
you choose a background (specialty) in addition to race/class, and humans pick a "talent" as their "race" so to speak
it also does more customization with weapons and armor, but at the expense of the magic enhancements that D&D has
I think its less balanced than D&D, personally, but I never got to play it; never even knew anybody else that had heard of it
also it looks like even more work for a DM compared to D&D

>>97602049
played an oneshot as dm. It is actually easier than dnd because unlike dnd you don't build encounters like pcs, they have their own rules and you can staple a few extra powers on an npc template and be done.
Skill rolling is exactly the same as dnd.
I didn't really appreciate the narrative focus of the game, but i find most changes impeccable besides damage and hp scaling

All in all i agree with anon above. fantasycraft is great for looting cool stuff and applying them to 3.5.

>>97601330
I actually did like the direction 4E went after WotC had time to flesh it out. I also liked the direction 3.5 went for different reasons.

>>97602871
I still wonder what 4E would've been like if it had actually launched with the online tools. Lancer's Comp/Con is a thing of beauty but the game is also damn near impossible to run without using it.

>>97601330
same as this
>>97601355
both campaigns I now run are a mix. I find PF1 modules and AP easier to run because they are more detailed, mostly because they came out when the hobby was more evolved.

What I change in my game is
>keep 3.5 feat progression but leave PF1 feat slots as fillable via quest rewards
lets me vary rewards somewhat, hook players into NPCs.
I try to feel out what builds the players are working towards and let them have the more boring pre-requisite as these rewards.
>reduce power (3d6, no full HP at level 1), keep things deadly deadliness, encourage hirelings/henchmen
keeps everyone on their toes and they have to think ahead of time about henchmen. Every player is curating several PCs - primary and backups

>invite players to roll stat boosts and feats randomly as they level up. Optional, but reward those who partake via reincarnation mechanics to make their future PCs slightly stronger
stole this from DDO. Far from perfect, but seems workable in my two games. What I really want is to have some continuity between PCs for a given player so that when a PC dies, they get to keep something for the rest of their time at my table. That way a dead PC doesn't feel like a completely lost time sink. The random build thing is simply all I came up with as a way to compensate for the power boost that would otherwise be inevitable. You can already build some crazy stuff in this game, so letting players keep feats or abilities from past PCs will just break things, I feel.

Randomly rolled characters are a mess but most classes can stand on their own, just based on class abilities. Many people in this edition love the building and wouldn't get it, but I invite my players to think of it as guiding a single hero's soul through a long journey and seeing where he ends up and what he picks up along the way. We ended up with some silly combos. This kind of random progression creates combos that I think most people wouldn't really try building.

>>97601330
To me, I think its mostly fine. Lots of feats could be cleaned up, some inconsistencies plugged & things made smoother in a general sense. Like a Ranged Power Attack/shot rule. Or just giving martials all the basic combat expertise feats for free/baked into the core rules so its less a tax.

But my problem is more about what's missing. Id take all that we already have & add to it. Rules for custom golems, body modifications, spell jammer, vehicle rules/customization, etc.

I feel like 3.5 wonderfully covered a lot of ground but it did have some dead zones that never really got explored for one reason or another. Id also like to build on those systems that didnt get enough love like ToB & Incarnum, even expanding/updating Stonghold Builder's Guide.

If I was in charge of it I would gather everything printed from 3.0 & maybe even some Pathfinder 1e stuff & make big fat compendiums covering all the content. Every spell, every feat, every magic item, every class, every monster. Especially if its something lost & forgotten in an old adventure module or forgotten in a 3.0 supplement.

In the long run I think 3.5 is fine. Jank included. I just want more content

>A net can be escaped with a DC 20 escape artist check (full round action), can be burst with a DC 25 str check (full round action), and has 5 hp
so an entangled character with a slashing weapon could just automatically damage it with an attack, right?

>>97602902
Better, probably, but the early content was fundamentally flawed. It needed another year of development to reach the standards of 2009 4E really.

>>97604489
Inanimate object, so 10 AC + or - net size - 5 for 0 DEX - the extra 2 AC penalty. So a medium net would be AC 3.

>>97604489
You need to use a full round action to skip the attack roll on objects with melee.

>>97597151
>Human King
Level 1-2 Aristocrat, Common Array, Masterwork equipment where applicable, feat selection is something along the lines of Negotiator, Skill Focus (Diplomacy), etc.
>Elven King
Level ~10 Ranger, Elite Array, his basic getup consists of +1 items and 1-2 wondrous items, will most definitely focus on archery feats.
>Dwarven King
Level 1-2 Aristocrat with 1-2 Levels of Warrior, Common Array, he might have a +1 heirloom weapon or armor and maybe one wondrous item. He will most definitely have some sort of Skill Focus (Craft), because any dwarf worth his salt must be able to craft something masterwork.
>Orc King
Something like Level 3-4 Barbarian, Elite Array, he might have looted some masterwork gear (or maybe even a +1 weapon), he probably has Power Attack -> Cleave.
>Goblin King
Some class from Book of Erotic Fantasy so he can take advantage of all those all-female parties going into the cave. Jokes aside, I cannot picture a Goblin King and I don't really care to even try.

>>97604570
yes, so basically anybody could automatically damage it as long as they have a total attack bonus of +1 (after net penalties) and don't roll a 1
and with a slashing weapon (and it can apparently be any slashing weapon; greatsword, glaive, axe, etc) you just need to deal 5 points of damage and you're free

That just seems really easy.

>>97604666
It eats into your actions. Plus you take -2 to hit from entangle so you need a base +3. Or a -4 penalty if you're using weapon finesse.

>>97604707
I said "after net penalties". As long as you end up with a total of +1 or higher, you auto-hit if you don't roll a 1.

But yeah, I guess it just eats a single attack from any halfway serious combatant with slashing attacks and the brains to attack the net.

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>>97604617
Hope this helps

>>97597151
nearly as random as any NPC. Most of them inherit their social position so there isn't even a set of requirements any given king would need to satisfy to become a king.
There is hardly anything to guess at without knowing the particular person's story. Likely to have ranks in knowledge nobility and that's about it.

>>97605334
I would think that kings in a D&D world would be more meritocratic. So imo they'd all be accomplished warriors or casters and probably have social and knowledge skills relevant to leadership, but then they'd also reflect their cultures in at least some basic way.

>>97605249
It's been a while since I watched that movie, but isn't he some Illusionist/Shapechanging Sorcerer who just uses goblins as his main mooks (hence the title "Goblin King"), and isn't actually a goblin himself? As far as I remember, he appears as an owl and that's about it.

>>97605407
Hes a faerie type goblin king. How young are you dude? What are you doing in the 3.5 general if you dont know Jareth or have trouble with imagining a Goblin King? Do you not know how many works of fiction have some sort of Goblin King? Fucking Tolkien had a goblin king

>>97605369
functionally, 95% of what a king provides to his country is heirs and a solid succession line. If he is to have any skills that benefit his country, that's nice but really the best one is managing his nobles so picking good advisors.

>kings in a D&D world would be more meritocratic.
In D&D world you have nobility that can buy stat boosts, magic items, immunity to disease, poison, old age effects and arrangements for resurrection. Also they can build up contacts and pacts with immortal beings, meaning a powerful kind can leverage riches he has now to make sure his descendants 2000 years later have an army of elder elementals they can call in at a whim

technically for a given definition of 'meritocracy' you are right - once his rich dad finishes giving him all of these advantages, that real world elite only dream of having, that king will certainly be a functionally more effective being and thus hold his position on merit of being a god among men.

however if you meant like modern egalitarian concept of meritocracy where everyone is considered born equal and their progress and station in life generally depend on their individual performance, than quite the opposite - no matter what you do or how well you do it, a commoner born with 18 in every stat is never catching up to a royal family that's been building up direct personal power for generations.

I think the biggest difference is that there is a lot less incentive for a king to care about commoners in D&D. In real world, if your kingdom is weak, revolution or conquest ends you reign.

In D&D world, there is less of a link like that because a king can focus all resources into his personal power and remain unconquerable even as everything else goes to crap. If ninety percent of a nation's power is focused into the actual person of the king with all of his magical artifacts and ancient pacts, it doesn't matter much what the rest of the nation is like.

>>97606225
>In D&D world you have nobility that can buy stat boosts, magic items, immunity to disease, poison, old age effects and arrangements for resurrection.
Don't forget buying up those cursed genderbender belts for optimal heirs

>>97606107
nta but I just don't bother watching or reading anything with female leads. Women's lives don't interest me.
I find it hilarious though if the movie made for girls made this guy their 'goblin king'. That's way too on the nose.

>>97606107
>What are you doing in the 3.5 general if you dont know Jareth.
I'm in the general because I happen to know and play 3.5e. I'm really sorry if I'm not invested in some character Bowie played before 3.5e was even a thing.
>imagining a Goblin King? Do you not know how many works of fiction have some sort of Goblin King? Fucking Tolkien had a goblin king
I think you are obsessing too much over my statement of "Jokes aside, I cannot picture a Goblin King and I don't really care to even try."
Yes Tolkien did it, it doesn't change the fact that I don't care about the concept to entertain it myself.

>>97606334
>needing genderbending
loser mentality
just stop being lazy and fuck your entire harem instead of singling out one woman. Pick your favorite son for inheritance, stash several potential replacements somewhere safe and turn the rest out on the world with a de-facto banishment.
Sell your daughters for more genie pacts.

>>97606935
he's saying if you only have kids of one gender but need the other gender

Hey, is there any Monster Manual that has lists of premade NPCs I can use for encounters? I want my players to fight something that isn't monsters for once, but all I can find is the extremely basic and low level ones from the DM Manual

>>97607239
the mm4 (5?) kinda does
enemies and allies from 3.0
theres a PF book thats nothing but npcs

I have a bunch of low-level npcs already made; mostly warriors and fighters
I can make new ones easily; I like it

>>97606107
>Hes a faerie type goblin king.
Which remains a rather silly terminology to use in a D&D thread because goblins and fey are firmly separate things in pretty much the entire franchise.

>>97606225
Class levels are a thing, as is the exponential increase of cost of most linear increases of effect. And thanks to one of the main drivers of those exponential costs and how it compares to the actual revenue streams available, it is non-sensically expensive to get a talentless nepo-baby safe from scry-or-die tactics. You'd be NEEDING (human) generations of excruciating wealth extraction or an "often mistaken for demigod" low-Epic grade founder otherwise beggaring himself to get an appreciable start, and to conclude it requires quite a lot of training of the heir in the things you cannot simply buy or Wish for an indefinite supply of.

It is simply too much more cost-effective to distribute the wealth to people who don't need it to get SOME shit done, tying a much broader talent pool to the line by the underlying economic support. Like the freaks who abruptly leap from mildly-noteworthy talents who drop dead on the spot to Forbiddance to demigod-slaying figures of legend liable to just literally punch through your fucking walls inside a year.

>>97606935
>just stop being lazy and fuck your entire harem instead of singling out one woman.
I direct your attention to literally every civilization that did this. It does not matter what you attempt to avert them, the political shitstorms of unclear succession WILL fuck over the state.

>>97607251
I know there's a couple other random ones that have generic NPCs but I can't think of any. Maybe DMG 2?

>>97607006
I get it, but if you impregnate a dozen women, at least one of them will bear you a son and than you won't need to get freaky on your own kids.
>>97607625
simply don't leave anything 'unclear'
The shit storms you speak off were mostly a result of stupid or selfish kings who didn't want to believe in their own mortality and in Europe's case also the corrupt Catholic church slowly choking out all of European monarchies and nobility

>>97607887
>>97607625
>>97606935
>>97606334
I think it's literally less of a headache for a strong king to just seek Immortality instead of relying on heirs. Seeking jade like perfection, philosopher stones, undeath, etc. There's a lot of ways to become immortal in D&D.

>>97607625
class levels are trivial to get in 3.5 system and trivial to gift.
obviously you can power-level your chosen spawn with your resources.
Just set up some trials for him and keep him covered with contingency spells and something like stalwart pact from your high level priests and make sure he is only ever facing off dangers where you have good control of the situation.

scry-or-die is an obvious hole in the system that would by necessity be patched over if worlds of magic existed. Meaning spells that prevent scrying and teleportation over wide areas would be the primary area of focus of every powerful individual and this would continue until a good means of blocking these was invented - without that, no society would be able to exist or function for long.

>cost-effective to distribute
cost effective with which goal in mind?
the average mindset of the ancient humans was always to care about self and one's legacy, among which one's family name, scion and other kids are foremost, in that order.

In general, splitting inheritance is a bad idea all around. Cultures that practiced it historically turned out weaker than those that practiced total inheritance - for the simple reason that keeping power focused makes it much more effective, splitting it tends to erode and destroy it.

>>97608024
>seek Immortality instead of relying on heirs
counter-intuitive.
if you are not some neutral/neutral freak, merely adhering to your principles puts you on track to the outer realms where you will become immortal one way or the other and get to continue living in a world that runs in accordance with your ethos. In most of those there you will have avenues to work to get promoted your way up the hierarchy of your outer plane, potentially all the way to deity.

Extending your mortal existence really only stretches the window of where you have opportunity to fail and sin your way out of prefered heaven or get somehow forcibly soul trapped.
Most direct way to achieve immortality is simple to preserve your own memory and seek to somehow re-educate the petitioner you will become on who he was. Leave some contingency plan or make a deal with an outsider - probably easiest to do if you are chaotic good as there shouldn't be hard rules to bar you.

>>97608242
Not all settings have that mechanic/outer planes & trying to become some sort of angel/daemon king on the mortal plane just isn't gonna happen. If you are a king, & you want to have a strong state, rather than trust in a bloodline, you should just seek immortality. No long drawn out soul clense that erodes your personality over a millenia just so you can be the lowest angel trumpet player in heaven & then maybe a millenia after that you get a promotion. By the time you get something like free will your state is already gone. Better to get Immortality & guide your people through the ages. Especially when keeping a human perspective

>>97608308
maybe, if you immortality seeking doesn't put you at offs with the local pantheon. I think in most settings it would. Most of the written material is about rules who tried and failed to achieve immortality, don't remember any about a country ruled by an immortal sovereign.

>>97607887
>simply don't leave anything 'unclear'
Having an official policy of outright killing every boy but the chosen heir has been attempted. It did not work.

>The shit storms you speak off were mostly a result of stupid or selfish kings who didn't want to believe in their own mortality
No, the Ottoman and Chinese harems were very explicitly based on attempts at counteracting the risks of lacking an heir and the matter's implications in dealing with lower nobles. In opposite directions on the latter, admittedly.

>>97608067
>class levels are trivial to get in 3.5 system and trivial to gift.
No, they are not, because the full extent of risk mitigation is INSANELY expensive. Unless you mean to refer to total violations of common sense like Thought Bottling Lycanthropy HD then curing it.

>scry-or-die is an obvious hole in the system that would by necessity be patched over if worlds of magic existed.
Firstly, "cheap" power-leveling strats are far more odious to any setting integrity, secondly, it already exists but costs 1.5k per 60 ft. cube and an extra 1k per 60 ft. cube if you want a password for people who's Alignment differs from the caster's.

>cost effective with which goal in mind?
Dealing with almost literally anything at a sufficient scale to be worth calling a "king"? You can kit out dozens of decent mage-knights for a mere fraction the obscene costs of working the last few edge-case countermeasures onto one dude who dares to ever leave his gigafortress. A LOT of the countermeasures really only function in a preparatory defensive context, because re-instating defenders' advantage in the face of all the proactive bullshit is what they're FOR.

>>97608308
>Not all settings have that mechanic/outer planes
And equally not all settings have the tools for immortality that actually work in anything resembling general awareness, let alone accessibility, to turn the pursuit of it to historical conceptions of trying.

>>97608384
>>97608334

Lots of kings in our own world pursued immortality even though shit like Liches & Constructs & Mind Switch & yada yada yada never actually existed. So I imagine there'd be several stories of kings seeking immortality in fantasy by doing weird shit like drinking elf blood & making alchemical pills wrapped in mithral.

You know what? Instead of getting caught in your little bitch fit im gonna pivot. Lets make a small setting/location dealing with immortal kings.

Lets list some of the more interesting & distinctive immortalities & go from there

>>97608419
Lich king
Ghost king
Psychic Mind Switch King
Vampire King
Outsider bloodline King

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>>97608419
Reminds me of this post

>>97608419
>Lots of kings in our own world pursued immortality even though shit like Liches & Constructs & Mind Switch & yada yada yada never actually existed.
Yes, but they were ultimately a small minority. Successful quests at immortality being few and far between enough that it changes the calculus little from the mythology inspiring real-world attempts is perfectly plausible, especially if it doesn't do much about getting cut down by the local barbarian or farm-boy soon to be a hero-king pissed that your inadequately wrangled legion of Wights started turning people into spawn en mass or whatever.

There is scarcity in this shit. The trivial fungibility of wealth and rapid advancement for players is a convenience to have the campaign not bogged down by hunts for specific reagents and training times so that the players can actually DO things instead of the vast majority of it being running and waiting around for tools, not actually how the in-universe economy or learning works in basically any of the settings. That something "can" be done simply does not entail it is clearly feasible enough for people to try.

>>97608384
>No, they are not, because the full extent of risk mitigation is INSANELY expensive.
stalwart pact - less than a thousand to buy from your highest level cleric. At level 14 or so that's 70 temp hp for over a minute to your 1st level would-be hero. Same cleric got spells to evacuate that young hero if he is in too much trouble or have you teleport to him. Than start sending him to clear out bandits and goblins. A year of babysitting and you got yourself a high level heir.
>Ottoman and Chinese harems not working
none of their kings were level 20+ supermen who could slaughter every uppity noble by himself. As we are discussing a successful king that's now seeking to focus his power through dynasty, he has much better ways to ensure his chosen successor is the one to succeed than any king in real history.

>>97608419
>Lets list some of the more interesting & distinctive immortalities & go from there
ascend
die sent to whatever is the closest analogy of Arborea, spend a small eternity becoming a bad ass hero in heaven, while getting to play with all the hot girls in heavens in between your adventures.
Raid the universe at your leisure for eternity.

Looking at Stalwart Pact spell
>Complete Divine: Cost 250 xp
>Races of Destiny: Cost 250 xp
>Spell Compendium: Material Component: Incense worth 250 gp.

Why the change and is it meant to be a nerf or a power up? I know that 1xp usually costs 5 gold in other calculations, but I also find that in adventuring scenarios XP costs are easier to pay than finding material components. You would have to travel back to civilization to find 1000gp of incense to rebuff your 4 man party with this, while for 1000 xp you just check out the next few rooms of the dungeon

Which would you go with if your players wanted this on them all the time?

>>97601330
>What is it in D&D 3.5 that you prefer over the other editions
My group and I love how simultaneously customizable character creation is in 3.5, while how statically hard encounters and the source material is. I didn't like how pf1 got sillier and wackier as time went on, it lost the grim yet powerful appeal of 3.5. 4e just was world of warcraft on paper with literally everything shorn away. 5e removed the mmo slop and added in woke slop and it just seems to presume the players aren't very literate or good at chargen.

My perfect edition of D&D would still be 3.5. I'm not sure how that would look in 2026 though.

>>97611287

It was meant as a buff since no-one was using Stalwart Pact, and I would use the updated Spell Compendium version because that kind of batman-style wizard prep and planning is fun and I don't want to penalize players for doing it by charging them XP

>>97611363
>My perfect edition of D&D would still be 3.5. I'm not sure how that would look in 2026 though.
I think crunchier simulationist systems like this have a future, coupled with apps and maybe self contained AI assistant that would quickly look up the relevant rules/bonuses etc for the players.

I have no time to do anything like that myself, but I dream of a simple side clone. Just take all of 3.5 or PF 1 and stick it into an app I can carry on my phone or tablet that will help manage everything from character building to inventory to NPC atitudes and available merchant stocks.

If my kids follow me into software development, I might task this to them as their learning project.
With modern AI tools, its relatively easy for a small team to do this - first focus on having all the rules, stat blocks, spells and feats in the app easily searchable and that app to be self contained so fans could keep and preserve a copy without fear of breaking changes.
Expand it with features over time - DM describes the innkeeper to his players, AI immediately takes down the dictation and saves it to a profile for a new NPC and DM can later tweak it. Keep track of passage of time, reminds the DM that its about time for X holiday in his chosen setting, at least one caravan from the following locations would have arrived since PCs last shopped around... there is a ton of features one could evolve to help people focus on gaming and relieve them from some of the crunch while leaving said crunch open to fiddling with.

>>97611387
no one used it? that seems insane to me.
45+ temp hp for 250 exp which only triggers at half health seems to me practically mandatory for anyone going into risky situations.
If it triggers, there is a good chance it's saving your character from death.

>>97611462
players hate sacrificing experience,simple as.
i for once has never seen it besides some high level one shots we run at levels 12-15 where you have enough xp to throw away and the temp hp is enough to make a difference.
The gold cost change is definitely an improvement i wasn't aware of.
I generally like unique material components or foci for casters.

>>97611287
Stalwart Pact is stuff you put on NPCs so they dont get killed the first time you look away from them. Its great on mooks, hirelings, summons, etc. to give them more staying power. Casting it on youself/party members before a big fight is fine, but its too easy to trigger unless youre constantly healing

Savage Tide is so fucking good holy shit

>>97611939
Do tell. I'll pitch it to my DM so that he can scrap it for parts and chimera the parts into our campaign.

>>97611425
>self contained AI assistant
Same anon. Been tinkering with this with local models and cloud stuff. I found Grok to be pretty good at statting out module style rooms/scene sections. It also lets me build a project knowledge base and seems to have no problem accessing the srd's or main 3.5 forum posts on its own. I havent fully made any ready2go app yet.

I generally agree with the premise of using tools like this to tinker.

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What do you guys think of my Bartering system:

>Step 1: Make the following opposed rolls between buyer and seller.
1a. Appraise
1b. Highest appropriate profession. If either side has none, its roll as treated as 0
1c. Highest appropriate Craft check. If either side has none, its roll as treated as 0
1d. Optionally, if relationship is Indifferent or less and seller's alignment is not lawful, Bluff vs. seller's Sense Motive
1e. Optionally, if relationship is Indifferent or less and buyer's alignment is not lawful, buyer's Bluff vs. seller's Sense Motive.
Winning each of the above checks adds a +1 bonus to the winning side for step 2. This bonus increases by another +1 for every 5 points of difference from DC.
Once all of these have been made, cancel out each side's bonuses to see which side is left with a remainder if any.

>Step 2.
The one who is trying to initiate the trade, usually the PC, makes a Diplomacy check vs the other side, as if to Influence Attitude. Add the bonus from step 1 to the appropriate side, either as a bonus to the skill roll or the DC.

>Step 3.
Adjust price by 5% in favor of the side that won.

These 3 steps can be repeated until the initiator is satisfied with the deal, or has reached the best price he can get, or has reached his maximum number of fails. (based on the attached table)

Table - MaxBuyPrice = NPC is buying. Max Sell price: NPC is selling.
Fails: ie. 2 / 6 means 2 fails in a row, or 6 fails total.
General assumption - hostile, unfriendly people won't want to negotiate for long and have short fuses. Likewise, friends and helpful people won't want to argue with each other too much and seek to reach a conclusion quicker. That's why indifferent gets the most tries. Obviously you are much more likely to get the best pricing from friendly and helpful merchants.

If PCs don't invest in appraise or any professions and craft skills, even with helpful merchants they might have high DCs coming from the first 3 rolls.

>>97613974
>What do you guys think of my Bartering system
Already done so many times over the years, the issue is always the same: lots of effort for no payout
>Players won't ever invest in appraise/profession since diplomacy is universal, comes up much, MUCH more often, and at the end of the day can accomplish the same goal
>You will all get so tired of all the rolling and roleplay involved in what should mostly boil down to "Hey DM i want to get X/Y/Z, tell me how many GP i have to dock from my sheet" that you won't ever touch the system again

>>97613974
If I ever need something like that I'll glance at Traveller & come up with comparative numbers & skills to substitute in the roll

>>97614074
its not made so much to make players invest themselves into those skills as simply to adjudicate the advantage that merchants who do have those skills, will have when players want to barter.

>You will all get so tired of all the rolling
I can understand how that might have been the case when people had to get together in person, only had a couple of hours to play with weeks in between, but that's not how it is with my games. Essentially the big sessions are for combats and all these skills/roleplaying stuff are for the chats between sessions.

This is coming up again in my game because after tons of side quests and mini missions, a relatively peaceful lich agreed to craft a few custom orders for my PCs. They've picked to get 3 ioun stones at 24,000 each that stack +2 enhancement bonus to a stat, up to a total of +6. So money is becoming an issue and when they bring in 30k worth of loot, they aren't opposed to running through a short skill challenge for a possible 5% adjustment on what they might get from that. Especially as we do this kind of thing between sessions.

>>97606225
are you jewish?

>>97613974
You invented a Skill Challenge?

>>97614235
>Not in real time
Oh, i suppose that'd fix that. Only thing i'd change is the order of the columns, to have both buying and selling options close to each other, but as long as you can read it properly yourself then there's no issues i can see with this

>>97612414
Okay so it's a 1-20 campaign that has a few natural stopping points if you don't like high level rocket tag. I've been running the first few adventures, with some fairly heavy tweaking, but every one of my players is absolutely in love with it. In particular, they really REALLY hate Vanthus, who is genuinely one of the scummiest people I've ever seen in a module.

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What are the best things to pilfer from Pathfinder, and what things should one avoid?

>>97617537
Ranged power attacks.

Some magic items

>>97617537
Monster statblocks tend to have less HD bloat, being given extra abilities to bring them up to CR instead; this is particularly useful when putting them in the hands of players. E.g. their werewolf template is based on the 3.0 one rather than the 3.5 one, so it doesn't have the "multiclass into Animal" mechanic.

I also like some of the alternate racial abilities you can pick up, particularly how tieflings vary so wildly when 4e went the opposite direction.

Are giant boulders one handed or two?

The stupid books don't say either way, but it matters, because they all use two-handed weapons and don't have quick draw. Throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action as well.

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>>97619262
"Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.

A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder. "

I can't find a great reference table for object size categories, but I'd say a creature would need to be at least Huge in order to one-hand a giant boulder.

>>97619488
Boulder Throwing has it's own entry as a Special Attack in most giants' statblocks, IIRC it specifies that any mostly solid object of small size counts as a boulder
There's also some feats and PrCs that go into it a bit more

>>97619262
I think the answer lies in the damage shown. A frost giant has 29 strength, which is +9. Their rock damage is 2d6+9; one-handed. If it was two-handed, it'd be +13. I guess they could still throw it two-handed for +13 if they wanted to.

how would the military forces of fantasy realms organize and measure their formation units?
In my world I am using a 'lance', coming from
>knight and his retinue (could be 3 to 30 men)
and becoming more like any equivalent force, more like
>powerful leader or creature and its retinue
I figure fantasy wars with magic and monsters around would be somewhere between medieval small company engagements and modern combined arms squad approach.
Don't want to use modern terminology though when describing stuff.
What would be good words to use for collections of lances?

Would a clay golem
>(Immune construct traits, magic)
be vulnerable to
>alchemist fire
>Fire Elemental's burn ability
>Fire Seed acorn grenades?

>>97623236
Does it have fire immunity? Then no

>>97622955
I have a really hard time accepting that fuedalism wouldnt center around mages. Sorcerer bloodlines on one hand & wealthy elite wizard hegemony on the other. If our world knights exist because the ruling warrior caste had the time & money to raise them up. Being a wizard or Sorcerer would be no different. Clerics & Paladins would be the obvious parallel to the Papal State as a power.

So I would base military conflicts around a Mage & their escort of 3-30 men. Trade Lance for some other word.

>>97623319
I guess this is setting dependent. In mine, the reason not everything is ruled by mages is a combination of
Social standing component
>They are a tiny minority
>They are relatively distrusted and resented for their power
>They are naturally fractured and opposed to each other
>Clerics vs Druids vs Arcane casters have very different motivations and opposition to each other's practices
>within their own sub-groups they are in de-facto competition for everything

coupled with that is personal complacency and laziness of your average person
>most stay low level out of complacency
your average fighter can't utilize his higher BAB in peacetime to make a peaceful living. he needs to keep risking his life and in the process will be tested and honed to become stronger
meanwhile your average spell caster is automatically a person of leisure at level 1 because he gets to live relatively carefree by just handing out his few spells for sale. Convincing any of them to do anything risky will be like trying to recruit your average Japanese neet to come out of this den of games and comics to become a war mercenary.
Only a minority of that minority will be motivated to keep going to push themselves and become truly powerful.

Even those who do go up in level sufficiently to become a true power, will still be extremely cautious with their persons and they will likely be distustful of each other and everyone else and be prone to isolationism for their own safety and also to be able to focus on empowering themselves further while avoiding interference by their competitors.

And ultimately motivations - when a mage does get real power, whatever goals he has, he is more likely to see his magic as the pathway to those. People with personal power hate needing to rely on masses for anything. The more you get involved in social matters, the more vulnerable you are, the more limited you are.

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Just whipped up pic related. Anyone else made a runestaff?

>>97623786
I would try to fit Foresight in there but ot looks good

>>97623810
That'll add like 16k-32k gp to the cost. This is meant to be a mid-level toy.
But I might make a Greater version...

>>97623415
Anyone with training can become a wizard.

Much like with training up a knight, it takes time & money.

Instead of a lance a staff, instead of horses & armor, spells.

Its not like nobility didnt have a thousand fractured forms, orders & clubs & social circles.

Many nobles did jack shit to actually be good at war after they became decadent & lazy too. A knight held a sword at a young age & a wizard can do the same with a spellbook. No one sane craves war. Everyone woukd rather be safe & comfortable, knights included.

>>97623818
Just a little paranoia, just dabbling with fear. Then you graduate to the Schizo Runestaff!

>>97623841
1 - if you start handing out magic to everyone, you are playing California not d&d. better not even in try.

2 - If one insisted though, I would point out that in the real world attempt to give everyone higher education left us with a surprising amount of retarded people holding credentials that no longer mean anything. And lots of schools trying to pass of complete bullshit as education.
I bet that even if magic was just something people could master with study, being an Int discipline, you would end up with the same problem. Lots of resources wasted trying to get people through training who are simply not smart enough to benefit.

3: refer to
>Even those who do go...
You would need to find lots of wizards willing to train up their competition. Invest tons of their own time, stunting their personal progress, to push someone else up. This isn't really comparable to real world education sharing because no area of studies really offers such direct power as magic does

>>97576374
Pf1e player here. Our game outlaws all the fun Wizard spells like grease, create pit, et al..
What are your thoughts on this?

>>97624789
I guess you could be very petty and focus on boring buff spells, which is actually the optimal way to play spellcasters. But that's more punishing yourself than the DM.

Does he allow Path of War? Maybe play a martial adept instead.

>>97624696
Buddy you are so fucking simple minded & chasing so many stupid tangents.

In our world a noble would invest in training in diplomacy, strategy, & combat. They would spend tons of money to equip them with armor & weapons & horses.

In fantasy land they would hoard magical knowledge. Teach their kids how to cast magic to win wars & prevent magical knowledge from being learned by the lower classes so as to keep their noble status.

You have this queer fucking idea that wizard can only be weirdo power addicts living on the fringes of society. Youre fucking retarded.

>>97625296
no, his last post was right
he's on the money

>>97625296
more appropriate example from our world would be how medieval guilds behaved - closely guarded every secret of their respective trades that they could protect and that was just about keeping their employment stable by controlling market sectors.
Wizards would go further because its not just about money. You are teaching people how to best fight against you.

On another note.
>Temporary Bonuses: Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The bonus also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and to your Combat Maneuver Defense.

>Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics as appropriate. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.

>Belt of Giant Strength
>Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn.
am I understanding all this correctly that carrying capacity would not increase until the next day?

This isn't a thing in 3.5, right?

>>97624789
>all the fun Wizard spells
You mean the most famous ones? There's so much more fun stuff hidden in various splats, especially when you bring in metamagic fuckery

>>97625669
Not by RAW it wouldn't, no, but that's more of an oversight than anything else

>>97625684
I could see the sort of DM that still tracks carrying capacity also caring about that sort of RAW

>>97624696
This is wrong, of course the kings and nobles would use magic to elevate themselves and keep others down. way better than spending money on full harness and horses

>>97626427
the point you first put forth
>Anyone with training can become a wizard.
which is not true even by RAW as you need to have good Int ability stat for that and by RAI, need someone willing to teach you.
you also argued that in context of magic users being the natural standard leaders of platoon sized military formations

no one was arguing that nobles would avoid magic all together.

>>97626619
Swapping the militant background of nobles with a militant magic background isnt hard buddy.

>>97623236
given that none of those interact with spell resistance, they should be vulnerable to them. Though I assume given that the accorns are still magical, they would also inflict the slowness in addition to their damage.

>>97598495
> Think "OSE" for 3.5
Could be an interesting system.

This may be the most retarded normie type thing I've ever said as someone interested in DND, but would it be possible to treat anything outside of forgotten realm like Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Eberron, etc like DLCs like what Fallout 3 and New Vegas?
I had a thought of that it like that, plus pushing further of epic levels.

>>97628491
I'd say stuff like the elemental planes and the outer planes make for a better 'extra shit that exists outside the worlds setting' deal than other material planes

>>97628491
>Ravenloft, Dark Sun
the central theme for both is that they are hellish traps that are near impossible to escape.
Dark Sun has its own magic system. Any high level caster that travels there from another world would be left without magic.

in general world hopping is a bad idea. The whole point of having these other settings is that they represent fundamentally different worlds. Most of them are make themselves unique by introducing history and culture that impose constraints on the players, forcing one to play by new rules. Forgotten Realms is the setting with least restrictions. There are no real constraints on any class, the lore allows pretty much anything anywhere. If you let characters gallivant across these boundaries too trivially, you are going to lose most of the impact and simply ruin the setting for your players.

For example in Dark Sun, metal is ultra precious and magic is expensive and rare. Someone DLC gateways their way into there with +10 enchantment bonuses on his mithril full plate armor, its like the Terminator showing up in an old western. Not saying he would be undefeatable there, but that he would be completely out of place. And cultures are all twisted - elves and halflings from Forgotten Realms would really not fit into Dark Sun setting.

I would say a party of all martial classes that loses most of their equipment on the way might be better for that kind of plane hopping. Especially if you are playing properly and everyone is human so you don't have to adjust every PC to his own local cultural differences.

>>97628491
D&D Online was set in Eberron but had characters travel to Forgotten Realms for epic adventurers.

Those two settings co-existing kind of lessens them both though. Eberron has it ambiguous whether the gods even exist, while FR has gods who insist that the world wouldn't survive without them intervening all the time. FR has "Chaotic Good" NPCs torturing anyone who tries to make magic easier to learn, while Eberron portrays easy-to-learn magic as a good thing which improves everyones' lives.

If both settings are canon, then FR deities are the local equivalent of Overlords and most racial alignments in FR are enforced through brainwashing to make the mortals kill each other rather than join forces to imprison them.

>>97628737
>D&D Online was set in Eberron but had characters travel to Forgotten Realms for epic adventurers.
DDO is such a cool game.
They use Lolth's domain as the connective tissue IRRC, they are otherwise isolated.

>>97628737
>FR has "Chaotic Good" NPCs torturing anyone who tries to make magic easier to learn
remind me, what is this of which you speak?

>>97628737
Siberys died and was unable to create good counterparts to Khyber's Overlords - the closest equivalents being the Undying Court (whose leaders are all Divine Rank 0 and can collectively shield Aerenal from Overlord influence to some extent), and the Silver Flame (created by the sacrifice of the couatls and many dragons all fusing their souls together).

In FR, the Chosen of Mystra can wield "Silver Fire". In Greyhawk, Vecna claims that magic either is or was created by an entity he calls "The Serpent" (sometimes theorised to be Asmodeus). In Eberron, it's sometimes claimed that the Silver Flame was not created by the sacrifice of the serpentine couatls, but summoned from beyond the world. In 4e Eberron, Asmodeus claims to have taught the Sovereign of magic (suggested to have been a dragon who fought alongside the couatls). Hmmmm...

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>>97628776
Harpers are constantly doing stuff that looks suspiciously Lawful Evil while remaining Chaotic Good. IIRC Volo once discovered that wizards were intentionally obfuscating magic to keep it out of the hands the masses. Elminster burned his book and tortured him saying the masses can't be trusted with it.

If a writer wants to say the Harpers were in the right and Volo was going to get everyone killed by spreading magic irresponsibly, then that's fine. The nonsense part is claiming that this behaviour makes them Chaotic Good plucky rebels against authority, when it's about as far from that as possible.
The worse part is when you declare that Eberron having widespread magic without problems is canon to the Realms and that Elminster knows this.

>>97628883
and yet mystra has him doing all sorts of shit to promote magic to the masses

harpers aren't generally chaotic good anyway; they range from LG to CN
its just the cool ones who are CG

>>97628883
I agree that this about the opposite of what Chaotic Good should entail. People often try to use the chaotic part to justify acting in ways that are clearly not 'Good'.

That seems to be a common theme among D&D writers at the time.
In PF1, on Golarion the pathfinder society (which I consider to be the lamest gimmick ever written into this hobby) is portrayed about the same way - a group of of busybodies that just took it upon themselves to dictate to the entire world what magic is too dangerous for others and should be kept strictly under the control of the pathfinders themselves.
In FR I guess its a bit worse even as Elminister is literally a chosen of the goddess of magic and his deeds overall can be be presumed to hold her approval and blessing.

>>97629150
In 2E, the chosen of Mystra had 25 con permanently, because making magic items and permanent spells could reduce your con score and this limit didn't apply to them. In other words, it's an actual part of his job description to increase the amount of magic in the world. He's just useful enough to not get fired, but he's not actually acting with any kind of approval.

>>97628491
You mean anything outside of Greyhawk

>>97628883
>Elminster burned his book and tortured him saying the masses can't be trusted with it.
bullshit

Elminster burned the original copy, which was full of the arcane equivalent of malicious code, which would do shit like summon hostile extraplanar creatures. When it was safe, he released it for everybody to check out. He never tortured Volo.

The anti-harper poster is some buttmad red wizard or banite or some shit.

Harper's also kill inventors & destroy their inventions to keep people from technologically advancing. The Harper's do everything they can to impose status quo

>>97629423
well look where technology is taking us
BASED, I say

Anyone got any good pf1e gestalt builds i can copy?

Mythic
Level 8 start
Spheres, Psionics and Path of war allowed

>>97614235
>a relatively peaceful lich agreed to craft a few custom orders for my PCs.
same anon
I've got too much going on in the campaign to introduce a new adversary and pcs invested a lot of time into buttering this lich up.
So looking at this just from perspective of
>pcs got a friendly magic item crafter
this is kind of turning my game into magic mart. just slower as I am keeping track of how fast he can craft, at double speed by increasing DC.
They don't even bother asking what the latest caravan brought in. is it reasonable to cut them off from a contact after giving them ~100k in custom orders?

>>97629891
>Mythic
>Gestalt
>PoW allowed
Either your DM is incredibly experienced, or this is the first game he's ever ran
Uhhhhh sorcerer|bloodrager is always a decent mix, or go paladin|oracle to triple down on the synergy

>>97629891
Summoner-Sorcerer/Archanist

>>97601563
What bothers you so much about others preferring a different edition?

>>97630325
This is a old meme made in bad faith because 3.5chads made fun of 4e

Is this the right place to ask about Dungeon Crawl Classics?

>>97631360
No

>>97598339
I can't bring myself to go all in on that (And have a ton of other feat demands to start with Trollblood and thematic domains like Pride) So it's quite difficult.

>>97597151
I think that even in a non-Gestalt game a king should be a Gestalt Aristocrat rather than being multiclassed into it, gives a good will save and some useful skills regardless of what else he's doing, and isn't really all that intrusive otherwise. Also if the king DOES go all in on magery (Not advisable you really need that Fort save for assassins) it dopes at least give a d8 and 3/4ths BAB

And if we go by "Chance of failure, and some stakes" they should actually gain a decent amount of XP
>>97604617
These are absurdly low level.


>>97606225
That's maybe going too far in the other direction, there ARE caps on inherent and gear bonuses unless you're making epic stuff silly

>>97608334
>>97608419
>>97608482
My Eberron character is a Cleric/Ordained Champ/Bone KNight with troll blood, he likes war(It's one of his domains) but is very pissed at the Last War being started by the most retarded succession plan in existence.

His goal is to become an immortal king to prevent that ever happening.

Having already started as a thought experiment in stacking immunities he's already well on the way.

I think eventually he'd just get petrified one of the few things he can't be made immune to that I'm aware of, and shattered. (But as a regenerator if any part is stone to fleshed he'd come back as some horrible villain)

>>97608468
That's tragic.

>>97632415
Armor Enchantment: Proof Against Transmutation is the easiest & direct way to protect against polymorph & petrification.

Necropolitian is a good on theme way to become undead-lite for immunies & generalized Immortality. I'm also a huge fan of the spell Hide Life. Not sure how you'd get ahold of it but it makes you a discount lich & immune to HP death.

Have no fear bone king, you can live forever

>>97632415
remember to try to find a way to survive without breathing, as beating you unconcious and suffocating you is a very reliable way to still kill a character with regeneration.
Otherwise you'd probably benefit a lot if you could get a hold of the effects of Veil of Undeath, which gives you undead immunities(including to non-lethal damage which can stack enormously with regeneration, or outright negate it depending on the ruiling) that should help cover your gaps. Very high level spell though, so hard to keep up for long
>>97633160
nta, but becoming undead would get rid of his regeneration.

>>97633303
Hmm. You really should have been a Troll Blooded Warforged, & taken 3 levels of Warforged Juggernaut. That leaves you with only fire & acid as ways to damage you. Mantle of the Fiery Soul solves Fire. For acid you could find a way to become a half black dragon, or maybe Cleric the rest of the way & DMM Persist Energy Immunity (Acid)

>>97633417
Wait no,

Warforged Pugilist from Dragon Mag 310 take the ability Shake It Off. You only take Non-Lethal Damage
Take the Feat Improved Resiliency making you Immune to Non-Lethal Damage

Take 19 levels in whatever you want after that. Maybe delay taking the feat for a level or two if you'd like to take something like Unarmored Body, or whatever. Or take a Flaw.

>>97628500
>>97628584
>>97628737
This fuels an idea:
What if some of these basic martial/simple class fellows were sent to each specific way as a form of harsh but efficient training, while also being some sort of solo adventuring?
Like
>Send a monk into Dark Sun then a Elemental Plane to master their Ki in such a harsh environment, and potential mastery over fire and familiar elements (Obsidian and Magma)
>Send a Barbarian to Oriental Adventures, learn something with emotion and control, master their inner self and rage, also it's funny to see a crazy looking fuck in what is just straight up Asia but more fantasy and crazy
>Send an Artillerist to Dragonlance, learn the way of High Fantasy to make truly imaginative and destructive weaponry.
etc etc, the devastation of such characters with these types of capabilities is truly amazing with the right thinking and what not.
>>97629268
I think FR was the main one, it seems to be the big one

>>97633667
No 3.5 is default Greyhawk.

>>97633667
FR is the main setting since 5e started yes. He's saying that because Greyhawk was Gygax's world, which he directly promoted in the core rulebook at least as early as ad&d.

>>97624696
>And lots of schools trying to pass of complete bullshit as education.
If I wanted my enemies to fail, I would set up fake wizard colleges that trained everyone incorrectly. You are seeing a design feature, not a bug.

>>97624696
>1 - if you start handing out magic to everyone, you are playing California not d&d. better not even in try.
3.X's wealth by level system extending to NPCs is quite insistent that almost anyone of the remotest importance is likely to have at least a bit of magical equipment. While not everyone directly "has" magic, the framework makes it quite troublesome to justify all but the most impoverished and isolated to have contact with it.

>2 - If one insisted though, I would point out that in the real world attempt to give everyone higher education left us with a surprising amount of retarded people holding credentials that no longer mean anything.
That's to do with fairly specific perverse incentives around undischargable student loans as the means divorcing the intake from any practical use because the institution gets its money even if the field of interest is completely worthless.

>You would need to find lots of wizards willing to train up their competition. Invest tons of their own time, stunting their personal progress, to push someone else up.
...Are you under the impression no wizards notice getting bottlenecked by mediocre Intelligence or the vagaries of whatever leveling up means in-universe then decide to spend their time building up power external to their person by training up other wizards? Fuck's sake, there's whole-ass magocracies built on shit like that, complete with training people to be bad wizards more useful for beating faces in melee!

>>97633667
>I think FR was the main one, it seems to be the big one
Faerun got the most content as a continuation of its sales momentum from the TSR days, but 3.5 content's implicit setting is a weird pseudo-Greyhawk from using that setting for its core and organized play then sprinkling in more references in some supplements but then just piling in all the random shit like Incarnum or Shadowcasting that make zero to outright negative sense in Gygax's works.

>>97633458
We can build on this.

>Puglist 1 Shake it Off
>Be a Warforged or Gain Construct or Undead Traits (Alchemical Child/Necropolitan) or just use Favor of the Martyr (Persist it if you want to stay human but youll be vulnerable to a few things)
>This gives you immunity to just about everything.
>Mind Blank & Freedom of Movement to close up most everything else. Either use persisted spells or a Cowl of Warding
>Proof Against Transmutation armor enchantment to protect against polymorph & petrify
>Congrats you're only susceptible to Antimagic/Disjunction
>Ottiluke's Supressing Sphere (Abjuration) can sort of patch that
>Get Psionic Tattoos with the Rewired web enhancement stuff, make a Chuirgury engine to rewrite yourself
>Ardent 2 & Supernatural Transformation to hack your Ardent level to HD
Take 17 levels in whatever you want to get Perist abuse. CoD or Artificer or Whatever. Artificer gives you the most range

Youre now immune to everything & have access to all 9th level spells & psychic powers.

You'll want a way to fly, just so you cant be outmanuevered or tossed into a pit. Becoming a dragonborn can do that if you want non-medical flight. Idk if there's better non-medical flight. Maybe a graft?

Are there any holes in this?

>>97635312
Pugilist was errata'd in a later Dragon issue

>>97635320
Do you know which one errata'd it?
Any other sources to convert lethal to non lethal?

>>97635364
Dragon #313, page 8
>The pugilist develops fast healing 1 that applies only to nonlethal damage. This ability also reduces the duration of all stunning effects by 1 round. The pugilist can take this ability multiple times; its effects stack.

There's already a rule that the regeneration ability (which makes all damage nonlethal) doesn't function if you're somehow immune to nonlethal damage.

Look into the Emerald Legion though.
https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101587

What's the most damaging spell in the game? Upscaled fireball?

>>97635954
empowered disintegrate crit from a 19th level rogue using a sneak attack

>>97635954
Combust is 1d8/level with a rider effect and is only lv2 (making it easy to apply metamagic)

Wings of Flurry is likely the best blasting spell in the game - 1d6/level force damage in 30ft around you, doesn't harm allies, gets +1 caster level if you're dragonblooded, and anyone who fails their Ref save loses their next turn

Even in Core, Fireball will often fall behind Scorching Ray

>>97636231
Hammer of Righteousnes is also good for clerics - an lv3 spell that deals uncapped 1d6/level force damage (Fort half), increasing to 1d8/level if the target is evil, and you can choose for some or all of the damage to be nonlethal

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>>97617537
>>97618462
Undead getting cleric BAB, HD and automatic Unholy Toughness or whatever it's called to give them Cha-to-HP was a good choice.

I assume they did something similar with Fey.

>>97633160
Necropolitan is true undeath and nukes your con score making regeneration nonfunctional. BUt I like Proof against transmutation. Oh and nice wouldn't stop my own buffs.
>>97633303
Oh I know, non-vacuum suffocation actually just deals nonlethal but non-reneratable damage that eventually rolls over into lethal. Even if the nonlethal immunity doesn't apply to drowning it would still just leave him in a sort of stasis because the damage CANNOT roll over into lethal, Regeneration can't heal it but it still by raw prevents it rolling over into lethal. This actually allows for drowned, starved, or Dehydrated Trolls to be smuggled around and revived by other means

The water elemental torso and mouth grafts would prevent dehydration attacks and drowning

I LIKE the idea of this character eventually getting overthrown via some specific weakness, but in a way that he might come back from. IE petrified but a shard of his body is found and unfrozen to regrow.


Warforged don't get enough starting feats for both Toughness and Troll blood without flaws and really I don't think I can justify it. Bone knight gets allt eh same things eventually. ANd I've already got art of him as a human.

>>97633667
Pugilist got errataed in the very next dragon issue or possibly the one after that. The actual ability is no longer "Develops only nonlethal damage" which makes zero sense You don't develop damage, you take it. It's "Develops Fast healing 2 that only works on Nonlethal damage"

Also very weird that Improved Resilience blocks Fast Healing as well as regen, when Fast Healing has no special interactions with Nonlethal damage

>>97635425
I thought it was Fast Healing 2, odd.

>There's already a rule that the regeneration ability (which makes all damage nonlethal) doesn't function if you're somehow immune to nonlethal damage.
There isn't actually a rule for that. The rule is it only works if you have a constitution score. And for most of 3.5 the only way to gain nonlethal immunity was either to be come undead, or a construct which lose nonlethal immunity, or to take Improved resilience which by its text blocks regeneration (And for some reason fast healing despite Fast Healing not converting damage to nonlethal at all?)

Bone Knight and becoming a half-golem who passes the save to not become a True Construct are IIRC the only 2 ways to nonlethal immunity that DON'T prevent Regeneration from working.

>>97636368
>Undead or a construct who lose their con score and thus lose *Regeneration in exchange for their nonlethal immunity.


Sorry about that typo.

>>97635364
>>97635425
Pugilist also has something to halve all incoming nonlethal damage so if you want to very quickly get seriously reduced chances of being knocked out you've got a great choice there. Ger Trollblood and Pugilist and you effectively halve all incoming Nonlethal (IE Non fire and acid) damage and regenerate twice as fast between the special fast healing and the base regen 1.

Probably a much more "Fair" way to do a trollblood.

when do you coup de grace a PC?

>>97637586
When they take my loot.
>>97636510
>>97635425
What my DM doesnt know cant hurt me

>>97637596
i meant as a DM. Under what conditions does your monster/minion/etc chooses to spend its round finishing off a PC?

>>97637626
When there are no other threats & they have nothing to gain by capture. Or if they took my kobold loot

>>97636510
So I did some triple checking.
Enlightened Alchemical Child are Constructs with the Lifelike subtype which means they die at -10 instead of 0, they can bleed (unless they have the Hermetic refinement) they age (unless you take the Idealized refinement) & they can take subdual damage. So you should be fine stacking Trollblooded/Monstrous Regeneration & Favor of the Martyr as Persisted Spells, & benefit from the rest of the Construct immunities

Low-light vision.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromancy effects.
Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain.
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless).
Not at risk of death from massive damage.
Constructs do not eat, sleep, or breathe.

Not as great as having non magical invincibility but it's something.

>>97638428
Getting that Resistance to spells that don't work on objects might eliminate the final "Implosion" weakness(Save or die that doesn't count as a death effec), then again Implosion destroys worn equipment so even if it can't *Target* an object, it still /works/ on objects.

I mean I guess one could always take bone knight on top of that for the innate nonlethal immunity while in the bone armor.

Still my guy's got his own history tied in with Eberron and Karrnath that really only works if human (With a dash of troll) and again you need Toughness(or an equivalent) AND Trollblood at 1st level to qualify. So you can't get that unless you have two starting feats. (And toughness for some reason isn't a fighter bonus feat)

If the DM allows flaws the only real question then is Do they have a con score? That's really all that matters for Regeneration.