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Squats are one of the most quintessentially oldhammer armies. Probably because they were legendarily, Squatted. As nobody but one guy really cared about them and then they left the company and really their niche was found and replaced with Tau in 3rd.
and I mean the niche they found doing well in with the bikers was covered better with battlesuits, the guardsmen but better because they're dwarfs thing never really gelled that well. Ethereals replaced living ancestors.

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In Oldhammer stuff they really found their working character in Epic more than anything, where they got to play with more interesting toys.
This was apparently a big surprise to Jervis and Andy developing Epic when 3rd edition came along and they were dropped there, as Squats were an afterthought up at the studio. Woops. They got a Citadel Journal army list fairly promptly. And remained covered into Epic: Armageddon in an extended way though out of production.

But the way Epic worked just gave the Squats space to actually have some character of their own. No titans, not tank swarms like the Imperial guard, but rock solid infantry backed up by a variety of interesting giant war machines and fast moving formations, and different forms of artillery support meant they played quite differently.

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Problem was those weird egg armour biker lancer guys just don't really seem that cool in 28mm.
But would have been hell trying to make/sell an army of mech suits back in the late '80s with softer lead-pewter minis so not like they could have gone the tau battlesuit route for them even if they wanted. Something only as bulky as Terminator armour was enough of a problem for them it took a bunch of designs to make something workable.

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On a Squat related point, they really did get their Dwarf aesthetic down early and of all the model ranges, Dwarfs are generally the most consistently good looking of even their oldest miniatures.

Elves it took them a while to get consistently good, humans were often wonky armoured or otherwise chaos or not. Space Marines had problems and took a couple of years to get consistent. Orcs and other monster-y types could be a bit iffy but well Kev Adams basically nailed it into place, but multiple sculptors all worked on the Dwarf ranges and turned out consistently good miniatures.

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>>97451700 is still up but whatever, hello

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>>97628674
u sure about that?

>>97628626
>On a Squat related point, they really did get their Dwarf aesthetic down early and of all the model ranges
A shame it was all sacrificed on the altar of modernity

>>97628425
To be fair iirc they were also slow as shit making buying their version of the rhino a must but they were still good at melee unlike tau. They could coesist like they do in epic armageddon.

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On an unrelated note, it will be 40 years of 40k next year. Are any of you planning anything for that? Since projects tend to take their sweet fucking time to get ready and get going, it's often a good idea to think ahead.

>>97628882
At least Squats are still squats in Necromunda.
I don't touch modern Necromunda because just WTF is going on with that mess, but I appreciate someone over there gives a fuck about whatever hot shit it is they're up to. And kept them as Squats there specifically distinct from the leagues of whatever.

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>>97628410
Hey, /GROG/. I know it's an off-topic post, but there's no better place to ask. Oldhammer forums do not have a place for such a question, and I'd be damned befor I'll go into Facebook.
Thing is, everyone and everything around me recommend me that new Owlcat's Rogue Trader game. Well, the question is: how is it from the Oldhammer's fan perspective? Someone here must have played it.
I have huge doubts about it, both because I just do not have much faith in modern videogames in general, and because I profoundly despise everything that happened with WH40K during the last 26 years. And especially in the last 15 years. Fucking primaris, Great Rift, Cadia getting destroyed, fucking primaris, et cetera...
So, yeah... in a nutshell, how bearable that new Rogue Trader is through the Oldhammer lens? Should I try it, or forget all about it and just get to Rites Of War instead?

>>97631014
The videa is based on the fantasy flight ttrpg rendition rather than the original GW wargame with rpg elements. Its pretty different.

Anons, how does one build a list in Rogue Trader? I want to play the game but the rulebook is quite dense and I'm struggling.

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>>97635620
What army? There are various army specific lists released in white dwarf & the Realm of Chaos books, etc. Perhaps I can direct you towards the one you need.

>>97636131
Just space marines vs chaos marines (if possible) for the sake of playing the game. Could maybe finagle some Orks or Chaos Daemons.

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>>97635620
Take this with a grain of salt as I've never played RT (started 40k about 8 months after 2nd came out) but have owned all the books for decades. There are four types of entities in the game;
>personalities
A single hero that acts on there own.
>unit
A group of 5-10 models that act as one group together and must be in cohesion.
>unit with personality
Like a unit but contains a personality that acts with the unit and must stay in cohesion with the unit.
>other
Vehicles, dreadnoughts, and robots act as a singular character.

>Pure RT with GM
BRB only, GM creates a scenario and eyeballs two balanced forces and sets victory conditions known only to that involved player. GM builds the list. Unit composition examples are in the background section starting around page 137. GM has the option to random roll equipment.
>Pure RT NO GM
BRB only, Players agree on a scenario and victory conditions. To try to balance the game the players agree on a point value and build /their dudes/ using the point values on page 58. Unit composition examples are in the background section starting around page 137. Player can agree to use the option to random roll equipment.
>RT with DLC, RT 1.5 edition
Collect the supplement books. They have pre-made units and personalitys with set point values. Some orginization lists. Also a number of changes and erratas to the main rules.

Hope this is somewhat useful I went flipping through my books to remind myself. Hopefully if I'm wrong on something another anon will correct it. Pic of my 1st edition set, but like a dumb ass I forgot to add the seige book.

>>97636413
Okay then, looks as though there's a bit more work required than just building a regular 40K list, but that's not a bad thing. Thank you for the page references, I'll look into them and see what I can come up with.
Thanks a ton anon. Nice collection you've got there by the way.

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>>97636439
BRB is a mess, as for the books;
>Chapter approved
Pre-made scenarios with force list. Army list for Maines, Guard, Squats, Rogue Trader, Pirates (Imperium), Mercenaries, Orks, Eldar Raiders, Imperial Agents.
>Compilation
Army list for Grey Knights, Terminators, Traitor Terminators, Commissar training squads, Eldar Army list, Genestealer Cult Army list. Space Marine lore, Eldar Lore, Genestealer Cult Lore.
>Compendium
Marine lore, Imperial Guard Lore. Revised Dreadnought rules. Eldar war walker, spirt warriors and ghost warriors rules. Revised vehicle rules. Imperial vehicle profile rules. Revised shooting deviation rules. Crater rules. Revised robot rules. More Marine Army list. More Imperial Guard Army list. More Squat Army list. Harlequin Troup list.
>'Ere we go
Proper Ork Army list book.
>Freebooters
Ork Army list book for specialist and not so proper Orks.
>Waaargh Orks
Lore book about Orks, no rules or unit. Can be skipped if you don't care about Ork Kulture.
>Battle Manual
Revised weapon stats. Revised shooting rules, Revised hand to hand rules. Weapon effect templates.
>Realm of Chaos Slaves to Darkness
BRB for Khorne and Slaanesh for use with Fantasy, 40k, and WHFRP.
>Realm of Chaos Lost and the Damned
BRB for Nurgle and Tzeentch for use with Fantasy, 40k, and WHFRP.
>Vehicle Manual
Revised vehicle damage and movement rules
>Seige
Fantasy and 40k book about fortification rules and seige campaign play.

In short RT BRB only plays like a historical game. The other books make it more like what a modern player would think. I will claim that it can be said there is a 1.5 edition just due to ALL the changes during its life cycle.

>>97636715
Awesome, thanks for the run down on the books. I have scans of about half of that stuff, I don't suppose you know of an archive where I could grab the rest?

Also, if you happen to have an opinion on the topic, is it worth playing Rogue Trader over modern-esque RT clones like Renegade Scout etc?

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>>97636727
Not that anon but it can definitely be worth a go, just for the experience.
RT is a clunky fucker and well, really not that great in design because it was being shoved together at great haste and some chunks of it are complete crap; but it is absolutely playable, and its clunk is importantly on the side of comprehensible as it's trying to model things in a way that represents them directly. I genuinely would argue that this makes it perversely easier to learn than modern 40k which is abstracted to all fuck in its concepts and rules interactions.
RT might have charts and charts and charts, but don't let that scare you as the charts are all trying for that same goal of conveying things in the setting acting how they're supposed to, rather than for some idea of meta-gameplay effects and interactions. You're not gonna need to know everything about the game before you play in order to play.

Though as a noob trap to avoid: battle at the farm is a seriously unbalanced scenario so yanno maybe avoid that or if you do play it, beef up the Ork side considerably with like a dreadnought or a couple of buggies. And a little bit more terrain. And also don't worry about sticking too close to the published army lists, shit like the Guard one has a mandated 1100ish points of basic boring ass infantry to try and deal with if you go down that route which leaves you fucked if you want to try doing anything interesting in a reasonable sized game. Same goes for all the randomisation rolls. Build your armies with your opponent present, going for a particular scenario. You're always going to have to put in some work. And don't forget to name those characters that are about to get turned into paste by a random heavy bolter round.
And if nothing else it'll make you appreciate the streamlining in RS and give you a better understanding of how to convert over material for it if you get that far.

>>97637044
Thank you for the information anon, especially that bit about Battle at the Farm as I was going to use it as a first time players encounter.

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>>97636241
Realm of Chaos : Slaves to Darkness, is the book you need. It's also my personal favorite. It has rules for chaos marines & grey knights, which would be an adequate substitute/promotion for space marines if you plan to involve daemons in the game as they have the necessary weapons to combat them.

If you want the army list for just regular space marines it can be found in the 1989 40k Compendium, or in WD issue #105.

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Spegs and Sperglings, which version of old Epic is the best? I know most people play the new fanmade version of Epic or LI these days, but me and my mates want to go back and play one of the old ones to experience it and get a taste of a game we never got to play.
I think this is the one we should try? Epic from 1997. Beyond a few Firepower Magazines everything seems to be contained to the Army Book so it seems like a "one and done" sorta game which is nice.
We would probably want to do Guard or Marines vs Chaos.
Is Epic 1997 the best choice for an OG Epic experience, or should we go with Epic Armageddon from 2003, Space Marine from 1989 etc.
TIA for any help :)

>>97636727
>don't suppose you know of an archive where I could grab the rest?
Sorry no.
>modern-esque RT clones
Sorry I never looked into them.

RT got messy as hell. 2nd was a true 2nd edition (a let's clean all this shit up rather than a straight up money grab). Not to say anything to discourage you to give it a go. Also pay attention to the book release dates as it gives you what revision in the rules were in effect and reflected from that point on.

Like I said 2nd just came out when I started so nobody wanted to play the old edition with me. Though other than the chaos books I grabbed the rest from the discount/clearance/dead stock shelf at the stores. Heard plenty of fun stories from the time.
>guy brings a Space Marine force
>opponent brings his 60 goblin fantasy bowmen
>lol what
>you may have power armor but saving rolls can be failed, and your going to be making a lot of them
>gobbos win

>>97637325
Never played Armageddon, I own and played 89, and played some 97. My opinion I liked and enjoyed 89. When my local group tried 97 we proclaimed it as shit since they streamlined the units. Things like in 89 you had three different tank variants with different rules. Then in 97 the three different tank variants all had the same copy/paste rules. Wish I had a copy of 97 to give you good examples. If you get PDFs of the 89 and 97 rules look and compare Guard tanks and your'll see what I mean. The local group also got pissed they changed the base shape. Can't comment on Armageddon since I never played or seen it played.

>>97635620
Just vibe that shit brethren.

In all seriousness, the core book as a few examples of force organization. Imperial Army, Space Marines, Orks, and Eldar IIRC. These should give you a basic guideline on things. There are point values provided for every weapon covered in the book as well as for various stat levels.

Once you get the hang of navigating the book it's fairly easy to gin up whatever you want. There are dedicated army lists in the supplement books but honestly, I don't recommend them as anything other than guides.

>>97631014
By which >>97632124 means, it's completely different from RT. It's completely congruent with 2nd-through-5th_before_it_went_full_retard.

So I guess if what you're looking for is the Flanderizing themepark that some Oldhammer fans have built on the carcass of a version of 40K that only existed for a handful of years, you'll hate it. If you like what 40K actually was prior to the Gathering Storm/Primarchshit/Primarislop era, it's breddy great. It *technically* takes place in said slop era, but the place it's set is a backwater on the arse end of nowhere and it features none of the actual detail of the era - the warpstorm that is cutting you off from the rest of the galaxy is supposed to be "the Great Rift" but in practical terms it's just a warpstorm and it has no bearing beyond justifying your isolation and why you have to re-explore the region from scratch. It's basically a bubble of circa-4th Edition 40K fluff.

>>97637325
You can get a decent idea of whether you'll enjoy the original Space Marine/Titanicus system by watching people play the modern Legions Imperialis system and then thinking "would I like this if it was ~18% jankier and more annoying to play?".

'97 is hyper-streamlined, basically the complete opposite experience. I think it has its place if you want to play genuinely retardedly large battles, since the streamlining is actually a positive in that situation. Otherwise avoid.

Armageddon is basically the bowl of porridge that's Just Right. More granular than '97, but less frustrating to play than the OG system. It does a better job of realising the battles described in the 40K fluff than 40K does. Every faction is viable and well-defined, with thematic rules that make them feel different to play and give them unique tactics to employ, largely also without boxing you in and making you feel like you're just executing the same gimmick over and over again.

In short; OG is for people who want lots of detail and don't mind the jank it brings with it, '97 is useful for really big games but otherwise eh, and Armageddon is the "best" game in the sense of actually doing what it sets out to do and representing what it intends to represent in its mechanics.

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>>97638446
What >>97632124 said is pretty much obvious. I mean, if that game was based on the original Rogue Trader, I guess we'd all be upon it even if everybody else said it is the worst game in the universe. I know, I would have had to try the game based on the 80's fluff.
Though, I guess, in the Age Of Retards it is rather reasonable to state obvious things anyway, just to make it clear...

Now, what you say sounds pretty great. I do not hope for the Oldhammer game, flanderized or not, but I do hope for the game without Gathering Storm. I started with Dawn Of War, and the newest game I played was Space Marine - and I think those are awesome, especially if you use your fantasy and some mods. So... thank you for the answer, because a game set in the 4th edition sounds rather enjoyable.

>>97638479
Oh, ok. Thanks anon, I'll give Epic Armageddon a look. It shouldn't be too hard to find the rules.

>>97639082
The one mark against it is it does, unfortunately, feature some stuff based on the post-retardation 5th-through-7th period, so for example when you run into Necrons they will be Nucrons, and DEldar use the modern aesthetic rather than the 3rd Edition Bondage Elves look. Otherwise as someone who also despises modern Warhammer it's as good as it's going to get I think.

>>97638296
>Just vibe that shit brethren.
Shall do homie.

>>97636413
I would add that depending on what your goal is balance really doesn't matter. Scenarios and story as the driving force for having a game don't require it. If you want it to be competitive within that then you'd run the Scenario again but swap who controls which army.

>>97639082
>>97639114
It does help that it is a really good game. Actually one of the 40k games ever made I'd say. Partly because it uses its focus on being a Rogue Trader to explore vast chunks of the setting that have never really been touched outside of novels I guess. And general lack of Space Marines.
It's also manages that rare thing where it is genuinely, appropriately funny. The inherent silliness of the setting is there and manages to be maintained alongside the grim stuff very well. And manages to be interesting in exploration, gives a little bit of the wonder of exploring a chunk of the galaxy and finding cool and weird shit.
Does help to follow a character building guide though as that RPG system is a fucking nightmare for a learning curve, especially when you've got to do it for multiple characters. I appreciate what they were going for in the whole designing a system where teamwork is supposed to matter more than individual gear so you get really ludicrously strong by combo-ing all sorts of buffs and such to give people extra actions and more powerful actions, it's an interesting approach compared to the usual RPG design.

>>97639082
Remember the advertising for Boltgun had a 90s bedroom and a bunch of 90s warhammer stuff because it was a Doom style "retro" shooter.
And then all of the in game sprites were 2020s era miniature direct scans because you are allowed to have nostalgia for old shooters but not old warhammer.

>>97640434
Didn't bother playing Boltgun because there were so many good boomershooters around I just couldn't give a fuck about being nostalgia baited by a mediocre one.

>>97640434
>because you are allowed to have nostalgia for old shooters but not old warhammer.
what part of THOU SHALT NOT MENTION MINIATURES UNLESS THEY'RE CURRENTLY SOLD BY YOUR LORD AND MASTER did you not understand?

>>97628626
>On a Squat related point, they really did get their Dwarf aesthetic down early and of all the model ranges, Dwarfs are generally the most consistently good looking of even their oldest miniatures.
I agree with you about this, there's something fundamentally caricatural about the GW dwarf design that just clicks, and their chunky shapes are very compatible with metal casting.

>>97640380
It's a rare game in that it pretty much flawlessly executed the concept. The way it actually allows you to strut about like a Big Fucking Deal and there's no snarky eyerolling from NPCs about it(beyond that one guy in the prologue and the Inquisitor), even stuff as simple as implementing the idea from the tabletop RPG of not having a traditional currency system because you're far too important to dirty your hands with mere coinage you just have a generally known level of insane uberwealth and people fall over themselves to give you commensurate gifts to curry favour with you. And there's only one character build for me: maximising Momentum and any extra turn/action abilities and enjoying the show while Argenta righteously cackles her way through the whole opposing force singlehandedly :)

>>97639114
>so for example when you run into Necrons they will be Nucrons
Eh, I'm still not sure just how painful Nucrons are. Safe to say, I liked silent terminators multitudes more than whatever has been done with them.

>>97640380
>its focus on being a Rogue Trader to explore vast chunks of the setting that have never really been touched
Does it do that though? That was my main gripe against the game being named Rogue darn Trader, but on the surface it looks like the most mundane stuff imaginable.
I always thought Rogue Trader is someone who goes beyond, who meets aliens that were never even discovered before and whose retinue might as well be right away unimaginable heresy.
And on the cover, we have a space elf and a space wolf. Come on! Could they at least use someone other than a fucking space wolf?
If you ask me, Mentors were made for this role. It would be prime time to resurrect Mentors.
Anyway, yeah, on the surface this Rogue Trader vidya looks like the most bland stuff possible that can be made with the game named Rogue Trader, but that's why I'm here asking for an opinion. Which, I gotta say, is surprisingly positive, so I guess there's no way but to accept th inevitable and try the darn game.

>>97640434
That was definitely a low blow. That was the reason I still haven't tried Boltgun.

All in all, thanks to everyone who participated in this little discussion so far. It's been really interesting to hear /GROG/ thoughts about this one.

>>97628425
Only guilders used bikes. Everyone always gets this wrong. Squats were divided into Brotherhoods and the Engineers Guild, the latter of which used bikes and trikes. Brotherhoods were just dwarf warriors but with lasguns instead of axes and shields.