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Is it still the best rpg ever made?
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>>3898438
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No.
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>>3898438
no
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>>3898438
Yes, it's indisputably THE best CRPG ever made. Probably in the top 10 computer and video games ever made. Arguably THE best computer game ever made, period. It's an almost perfect product, the only flaw is the lack of foreshadowing for Suldanessellar. You'd have thought there'd be at least a couple of common books about it. But the sheer entertainment value crammed into the game world is extraordinary.
Morrowind is too janky, procedural and broken to even get into the top 10, sorry guys but it just isn't that good.
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>>3899237
Generally speaking, in D&D based rpgs, low to mid level adventures (pre epic) are more enjoyable. This is a hard pill to shallow for most D&D enjoyers.
>>3899245
>Adulthood is thinking BG1 is better because there's less stuff
Indeed. Every magical item counts, every minor bonus counts, every spell slot counts, etc.
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>>3899245
>>3899252
There is that. I'm also thinking about how BG1 is more open-ended, and the story is "less epic", which can be a good thing or a bad thing, but in this case it feels more like a comfy d&d adventure, where BG2 is all about god-defying end of all things dilemmas, which goes a bit too far into the realm of fantasy for me. It's not that I mind that kind of story, but I don't want to feel responsible for the world all the time either. Sometimes the simple things are more entertaining because they're more grounded.
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>>3899306
BG1 feels like a tabletop campaing you'd play with a bunch of friends.
BG2 feels like a powertripping game you got dragged to play with a bunch of munchkins.
I like then both, but over the years I've enjoyed BG1 playthroughs more.
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>>3898438
No.
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>>3898438
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>>3898438
Ultima online on a roleplaying shard with political systems is the best RPG of all time.
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>>3909373
>there's no legitimate basis or reasoning that could possibly support your position.
NTA. BG1 vs BG2 is a subjective preference, and not a matter of objective fact. It marks one as a fool to be unable to distinguish the two, and lacking in imagination to be unable to imagine why someone else might reasonably have different preferences than you do.
Potential reasons why someone may prefer 1 over 2:
>open world exploration with many optional areas, versus tighter "theme park" setpiece design
BG1 feels more like a tabletop campaign where you and your bros are tromping through the woods exploring, as opposed to 2's lurching from quest area to quest area.
>lower level campaign, where DnD's systems are the most balanced, as opposed to higher level campaign, where bloat sets in
BG1's campaign starts at level 1 and ends in the mid levels, at what, 7? Depending on class and if you had TotSC or not. BG2's campaign starts there and ramps up into the "epic" levels where the numbers get too bloated and everything falls apart. By ToB, the continuation of BG2, random mooks have +3 weapons just because they have to, which is silly and immersion-breaking.
>limited magic items are relatively more important in BG1 due to scarcity, as opposed to BG2's deluge of loot
As stated
>BG1's characters follow the older school philosophy of having a large number of replaceable characters. Death was expected, and attrition was provided for. One could easily drop in a custom party through the multiplayer workaround and wouldn't feel as though one missed much.
BG2 originated the nu-cRPG formula with a smaller cast of more fleshed out "companions" with more dialogue, more interactions, personal quests, and yes, romances. The devs put more energy and time into the companions, and you were expected to use them for your party.You're welcome, anon.
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>>3899245
Meh. BG1 has a lot of charm, but the encounters are just really... basic. In fact, the whole game is just a little too slow and basic even for me. BG2 is just way more exciting and advanced in pretty much every aspect.
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>>3909549
It's all one game, anon. Literally the same engine with slight modifications between the two. Pretty much the same team made the whole damn thing. It's like reading a book and arguing over whether chapter 1 is better than chapter 2; aka it's retarded.
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>>3909747
>powertripping picking on ankhegs and basilisks?
A reasonable player will full clear both maps once, and move on. If you’re compelled to attempt to break the game by unnecessary grinding simply because the game doesn’t stop you from doing so, then that’s a (you) problem. The game has relatively low XP caps anyway, especially when it first came out before the expansion.
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>>3898438
I'm playing it for the first time now. While I wouldn't really recommend the first game, its sequel is much better. I'm currently in act 2 - finished exploring Atkhatla, De'Arnise Hold, Umar Hills and Windspear Hills. I'm going to Trademeet and thinking about adding Rasaad to the team. Here's the thing. I've hit 1,250,000 experience which is the cap for newly recruited companions. Everything afterwards will be vastly underleveled. I'd like to avoid that.
How viable is Rasaad (or monk in general) from level 13 onward?
Will I suffer a lot without Thief in the party? I don't care much about backstabbing and setting traps. In theory I can bash chests and open them with Knock spell. Traps can be activated with summons. Still, I don't know how common are repeatable traps and unbashable locks.
My team is Dwarven Defender, Keldorn, Minsc, Valygar, Yoshimo and Aerie.
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>no choices
>rpg
what did anon mean by this?
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>>3898438
Depends. If you grew up in the time where blobber-fatigue was a thing, Fallout wasn't your thing, cause postapo and then Baldur's Gate was a revelation, then BG2 was all that but more better? Yes. Personally I bounced off BG very hard initially, then tried a couple of time with the same result, then forced myself through BG1 with the "I kinda get it" impression, only to jump into BG2 and I still have not finished it. It's just not enjoyable for me. Similarly, Pillars 1 was kind of a slog to get through, but I appreciated it in the end, while Pillars 2 I can't force myself to play. There's just too much shit thrown at you all at once and that is just the story. I prefer a lot of player choice, I don't care for shitty romance quests and I also like some focus, as in, sidequests should not overwhelm the player to the point that he forgets about the main quest. Also, making some progress and suddenly you get pulled into a companion quest, while probably impressive back in the day, is kind of annoying now. For me, in terms of story, player choice and setting, Torment mogged everything back in the day and it still holds up, but nowadays, I do enjoy Icewind Dale games a lot more, simply because it feel like a tabletop RPG while, the other games don't.
Also, RTWP sucks for DND, it could have been great with a dedicated, non-DND-inspired simpler system and Fallout Tactics was a good attempt at that. Turn-based on the other hand get boring fast, because all these games go out of their way to make it super tactical, while the 'tactical' thing is just min-maxing stats knowing what skills/spells to use and when. I don't enjoy BG2 most of the time, but I appreciate the work that went into it.
What pisses me off about RPGs in general is that they still insist on DND formula, while tabletop has long moved on. XP for killing monsters and arbitrary 'levels', getting more health with each level so now you can take 3 sword stabs. It's unrealistic and stupid.
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>>3909373
Romance in your video games is cringe. The games take place over the course of a few days, a few weeks at best, and all the lonely gamers want to ignore the conflict and leap right into the sack with some people you just met a few hours ago because their avatar is pretty or something.
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>>3920283
>Pick a number between 1 and 10
>No, 3 doesn't count, it has to be 1 or 10!
>More than a few hours
>All your life
It's almost like there's a whole range of options between those two scenarios.
"I am deeply in love with the first woman to talk to me for more than one minute" is a much bigger sign of a failed male.
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>>3899306
That's just how levels in DnD work. The enemies that pose a challenge to your party in BG2 don't hang out in random forests. BG2 had to escalate the threat levels and that only makes sense in larger dungeons that are proper villain lairs.
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God I forgot how shit the writing in this game is.
The dialogue reads like something written by redditors even though reddit didn't exist when it was made.
And as soon as you leave the tutorial dungeon you are unceremoniously forced into what will turn out to be the main plot. The only available location is the slums and as soon as you arrive, you are forced to go with the shadow thieves guy to his hideout. There is no combination of dialogue options that would let you get out of this encounter, you will be put in an infinite loop until you agree to collect the 20k for them. It would be far less grating if they just did it in a cutscene, or let you ignore it and come back after you realize there is no other way to push the plot forward.
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>>3921994
So you don't think a single good RPG was made between 1997 and 2015?
So, Dark Souls, Morrowind, Skyrim, Final Fantasy 7, Diablo II, Gothic 1/2, Baldur's Gate 1+2, the entire Mass Effect series, the entire Witcher series, Fallout New Vegas, Star Wars: KotR 1+2, Dues Ex, Xenogears, Planescape Torment.... not a single one of these could be considered a good game?
I don't think you're actually a fan of RPGs if you believe this.
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>>3922053
Eye of the Beholder (1991)
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>>3898438
Beat it two days ago for the first time (previously I wouldn't even get past chapter 1). It's honesty great but I prefer The Elder Scrolls and Gothic games. Still, the character progression (mainly magical loot), lively companions and fantastical locations with interesting quests make it a great RPG. The ending is also phenomenal.
I'm planning to start Throne of Bhaal tomorrow.
>>3898471
The first game isn't even good and I'm surprised so many people even compare the two. Character progression is insanely slow, map is mostly empty with similar looking forest areas, the titular city has copy-pasted buildings with nothing interesting inside and my immersion went out the window the moment I encountered like sixth NPC who decided to murder me on the spot for entering a house.
I assume Baldur's Gate 1 is for people who just prefer less complex and more free feeling games about adventuring. I guess that's fine, I liked the way I was creating my own story by picking my companions and road to travel.
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>>3921852
And another fan favorite, "you may now say what we want you to say, in one of those 3 flavors".
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>>3911036
Monks aren't very good. They get a bunch of unique buffs to their AC and unarmed attack that theoretically help them keep up with martial classes but the number and strength of magical items in BG2 mean they get outclassed pretty significantly.
Yoshi is somewhat narratively important and traps and locks are everywhere. Hang onto him then replace him with Imoen when you get her.
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>>3923061
BG3 is shit and gay and woke but this is one thing it doesn't do, lock you in an infinite dialogue loop until you agree to the singular option that the writers prepared for you. Or give you multiple options that say the same thing. Sure many of the lines in BG3 lead to the same outcome but you're saying something different.
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I just found this thread. I am playing through the game for the past 2 years very very slowly. I am at the port on my way to the prison where Imoen is captive.
I played this game back in 2000 and the furthest I got was in the underworld where there's a bunch of beholders. I picked up the shield of reflection or whatever its called because fuck fighting beholders. I don't really know how to fight high powered mages or illitids.
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>>3923414
You can soak up their more annoying spells with animate undead or other summons, or have a cleric use chaotic commands/freedom on a party member. Positioning is also important so their bullshit doesn't affect the entire party in one go.
If you have Korgan he can also enrage and shrug off just about everything in the game.
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>>3923444
Yes, realistically there are bound to be certain scenarios where you are unable to progress unless selecting a specific option. This is far superior design to older games where you were quite likely to be unlikely to even be given options in dialogue that resulted in a game over screen.
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>>3923448
>This is far superior design to older games where you were quite likely to be unlikely to even be given options in dialogue that resulted in a game over screen.
But thou must!Personally, I find it far more offensive and immersion-breaking to have the developers offer a false choice and then ignore the players choice. I’d rather the game just say “this has to happen for the story to proceed” and get on with it. BG3 is full of those false choices. It makes the railroading far more apparent and less subtle.
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>>3923455
If something has to happen, with no alternative, then make it a cutscene or a monologue from an NPC, don't stop to wait for the player's feedback only to discard it.
The BG3 approach is fine for the most part, some choices will just end in your character dying and that's fine.
>you lie on the floor, wounded, feeling your life draining from you
>the witch stands above you and puts a flask to your mouth
>"drink this, quickly!"
>refuse
>game over
>WOOOOOW
I don't remember if at the time of that conversation you really felt like you've exhausted all other options, though.
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>>3923459
>If something has to happen, with no alternative, then make it a cutscene or a monologue from an NPC, don't stop to wait for the player's feedback only to discard it.
Agreed.
>The BG3 approach is fine for the most part, some choices will just end in your character dying and that's fine.
There were quite a few instances this of the game that bugged methough the one where you taunt Vlaakith and she just kills you I honestly though was fine, can’t say that’s not reasonable. Mostly as I was playing through the game, my suspension of disbelief was gradually eroded, and so I started noticing things that in other games I’d just give a pass and accept. Another one that irked me was in act 2, try to go down the road to the Absolutes army encampment for a sweet fight, you just get teleported to the oubliette and your character is forced to say “I should have known better!”. Super lazy. Or try to kill the red dragon in act 1, nope! Plot armor. There were several similar unwinnable fights early in DOS2 but the game at least acknowledged you won and rewarded you with cool uniques. There’s more examples but you get the point. BG3 to me just made me feel explicitly aware of the railroading due to its gamey nature, while in other games I’d just accept it as necessary.
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>>3923074
I'm the anon you responded to. Since I had made that post, I actually beat Shadows of Amn (>>3922867). In the end, I decided to recruit Rasaad in place of Yoshimo.
The monk started okay - worse than my main fighters but better than Yoshimo. After several levels, he was basically on par with others thanks to high number of attacks per round with solid damage. I also give him bonus points for not needing Boots of Cheetah so now my whole team moves quite fast in Throne of Bhaal. I'm just annoyed by his Shadows of Amn's storyline which is badly written compared to the rest of the game.
As for not having a rogue in my party - it didn't matter later in the game. Aerie was easily opening up whatever I couldn't bash with Crom Faeyr. I'm actually surprised how rare are high level locks and infinite traps in this game.
>Hang onto him then replace him with Imoen when you get her.
I told her to wait for me and she went to Copper Coronet by herself (from SPELLHOLD mind you).
I'm honestly so irritated by how BioWare handled Imoen in this series. In the first game, I was told that she is an important friend so I had her in my team for the whole campaign... only for her to be silent throughout whole adventure and annoy me with her accent (polish version). Despite that, I wanted her in BG2... but then she got kidnapped. Half of the game later, I meet her severely undereleveled when I'm already used to my current party. Yea, no. She goes to Copper Coronet and stays there while I roleplay that it's safer there for her. Also, her dream sequences are annoying too.
I'm only sad by the fact I missed Yoshimo's plotline (friend summarized it to me later).
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>>3921852
The only thing I have problems with is how much unnecessary reading there is. Approaching some unimportant NPC and seeing 6 different dialogue choices (which tend to randomly switch places and/or slightly change its wording whenever you pick one of them) gets tiresome.
Well, this and Beamdog's content. Holy crap, the amount of sarcastic and cringy dialogue they added is insane. The worst examples would be Gorion Ward's dialogue choices in Rasaad's questline and Neera in general. Jesus Christ, Neera is Claptrap's level of unbearable.
>>3923407
>>3923414
I am no expert on the game and I sincerely get lost in the amount of spells Baldur's Gate offers but from what I've experienced 'Remove Magic', 'Dispel Magic' and 'Breach' are your friends against defensive spells. Keldorn's version of Dispel Magic especially turns mages into punching bags.
If there is a mage that knows Time Stop, I just use Wand of Summoning on his face so he is focused on trash mobs instead of my party members.
As for Illithids... dunno, I just run up to them and murder them in melee. They are very squishy. If you don't have proper frontline firepower, either lead with summons or with one person who has good saving throws. There are tons of items which grant immunity to charm too. Priest spell 'Chaotic Commands' should let you basically steamroll Illithids.
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>>3924164
>God has abandoned us.
Have you abandoned Him?
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>>3925399
I like playing cleric parties just because I can have 5 skelingtons online at any time
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>>3925232
>I download mods to make myself weaker, take that!
Okay?
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>>3928289
LOOK AT ALL THIS BLAST I'M HAVING
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>>3929539
Everyone with an IQ above 75 understands that these are just optional loredump questions that you are free to re-ask and get the same answers as many times as you'd like. Expecting anything else means you are too stupid to understand the point of the game.
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Gonna try to finally beat the 1st game instead of abandoning my run halfway through like the previous attempts.
Any idea what class would best fit this portrait? It’s the cutest of the vanilla ones imo and none of the portrait packs I found have a fitting artstyle.
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>>3929488
Oh my god, you discovered the capslock key. Frankly, I'm absolutely amazed that you figured out how to get your AI spellcheck / autocomplete to post to 4chan for you. Like, how? Because wouldn't you have to be able to read in the first place to learn about any of this?
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>>3929657
Looks like you're right. Also, what the hell?
>Bugs
>Mordaine's portrait clearly shows her as an elf, although in the original Baldur's Gate she is a human mage during the training, and only an elf as the pregenerated character for import during character generation. In addition to this, Mordaine's portrait is assigned to the human Imoen in the prologue, before the latter can become a companion. It's also the replacer portrait for Imoen if the player chooses to use her actual one during character generation.
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>>3929661
>It's also the replacer portrait for Imoen if the player chooses to use her actual one during character generation.
Isn’t that just because the game only has two fallback portrait options? Broken nose elf chick and imoens milf sister are the only unassigned female portraits
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>>3929739
>You spend the entire game underpowered
not if you can use a katana
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>>3929739
Your thac0 takes longer to increase than a regular fighter and you’re limited to specialization. Besides that a fighter/mage your actual fighting abilities don’t suffer and are majorly supplemented through all the mage spells.
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>>3930425
A better question is, why even bother blowing 250k experience on fighter abilities if you aren't going to use them and just play as a "tankier mage?"
While technically correct, in reality, due to the way spellcasting works in D&D, a fighter/mage is almost always going to play very differently from a pure mage. An f/m will learn and memorize different spells and play different roles. For example fave the f/m focus on pre-combat and non-combat spells like invisibility and divination-type spells. Exploit the numerous self-only buffs available to mages (like blur, mirror-image, stoneskin and fire shield). Meanwhile, the pure mage can focus on more direct and traditional combat spellcasting (crowd control, nuking, haste, etc.)
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>>3930479
>the dual just ends up playing as a mage
No, that's just what you choose to do.
The system is open-ended. Maybe partly because it's old and crude and not as fagmatically balanced as a modern game but class is just the foundation. Maybe you're an archer-mage, maybe you're a spellsword, or maybe you are just a mage with extra hitpoints. It depends on the spells you learn and memorize, the weapon proficiencies you choose, your whole stat profile, and the needs of your party.
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>>3931344
>you stop developing and training martial arts and completely focus on being a nerdy wizard
No one ever does this because that’s the character they’re roleplaying
It’s always done to min max mechanical benefits to power game, and that’s why certain optimal breakpoints are chosen
Same with disgusting paladin/sorc multiclasses
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>>3931359
At mid levels, the differences between the DC and the MC are relatively minor, trading 2-3 points of thac0 for an extra spell or two. (eg level 9/13 vs 11/12 at 1.5 million XP)
At end-game levels there's substantial tradeoff. Rounding up to 3 million:
MC is 14/14
DC is 9/17
Relative to the MC, the DC sacrifices an extra half-attack and 5 points of thac0 for 7th and 8th level spells. Pretty good deal, minmaxxers love it, but it's still a trade. 5 thac0s and the extra half attack is a significant difference.
Relative to the pure mage, the DC has a major advantage in being able to use weapons and armor. The thac0 advantage is notable but modest (3 points). And a DC mage can't be a specialist.
Shit doesn't really break down until you get to the ultra high levels. And at that point, is munchkinning REALLY the problem you're going to complain about?
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>>3931417
Monk easily
Shaman is at the end of the day still a caster even if the spell list isn’t great
Monk is a melee class incapable of ever wearing a helmet, has terrible ac, is immune to haste and just terribly designed
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>>3898438
Pic related improved upon the formula in every way possible.
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>>3923609
That's because:
>Imoen was added at the last minute into BG1 because the developers realized the player doesn't have an early access to a non-evil thief.
>She was supposed to die early into BG2 but for some reason it turned out she's really popular among players. After all, the original leimotiff of the game was supposed to be "vengeance" - Minsc wants to avenge Dynaheir, his ward; Jaheira wants to avenge Khalid, her husband; and CHARNAME wants to avenge Imoen, his childhood friend.
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>>3931483
That's not only retarded, but disingenuous. In BG2 the only combat encounters that had any thought put into them were spellcasters, and those amounted to "spell sequencer + maybe time stop."
And even then you could mow down each and every one, including the Liches, with a Level 3 Druid spell (Summon Insects).
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>>3930578
Classes have different minimum scores so the class you choose has a big impact on how easily you can get high rolls.
Paladins are easy to get 90+ with but must also have at least 17 in Charisma. Fighters on the other hand can legally have every stat below 10 so the chance of getting good scores with most or all stats is much lower.
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>>3931417
If we're including kits then I'd say it's the beastmaster.
>Martial class with severe restrictions on both armour and weapons
>Only compensation is find familiar and a couple of mediocre summoning spells later than a multiclassed priest would get them
Shamans seem pretty good desu, spontaneous druid casting is not bad at all. Spirit summoning might be shit but it's unique and interesting.
Monks have a bunch of restrictions and then a bunch of bonuses and abilities to try and compensate. The general consensus is that they don't, especially at lower levels. However from mid SoA onwards they become an okay warrior with a bunch of immunities (most notably MR) without needing to rely on equipment.
Rangers are generally considered inferior to fighters and the beastmaster is a ranger but worse in every way. It's also worse than other ranger kits, having stronger penalties for significantly weaker bonuses than the stalker or archer. The only slightly interesting aspect is that find familiar allows them to have more hitpoints than any other class though barbarians are still better meatshields as they have innate damage reduction and better equipment options. Beastmasters have the perfect mix of being boring and outclassed by others in every way to make them the absolute worst.
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>>3932042
>Rangers are generally considered inferior to fighters
rangers are decent especially in difficulty mods, archer kit is busted and they get access to Armor of faith which is mandatory for melee to survive late game
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>>3931996
The only IE-likes that actually have good encounter design are IWD2 and the PoE games.
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>>3931996
>And even then you could mow down each and every one, including the Liches, with a Level 3 Druid spell (Summon Insects)
Is that true though? I thought fire shield made you immune to the insects spells? And literally every single enemy spellcaster puts that on with contingency / trigger as soon as they turn hostile.
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>>3929587
Dude just make your own portrait. Google "bg1 portrait maker" and click top link. From there you can insert any art portrait, picture, real or AI and use it to represent your character.
I'm currently playing Kingmaker and made the portrait im using playing around with nightcafe AI, putting in inputs until it almost perfectly represented the character I wanted to play. Use a painted theme in nightcafe like I did and it will blend in pretty well with the other portraits in the game.
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>>3929587
This has always been my favorite portrait too and it has a nice shade of green. Just started a new game as an elven archer but I think it could also work for a bard or cleric.
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