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>Do you think RPG is one case where becoming more popular has turned against the genre, with games having to be dumbed down for the average player?

>>3911957
Again, /v/ & /vrpg/ would have a hissy fit if anyone gives a workable definition of an RPG.

>>3911957

Absolutely. Popularity is responsible for the insertion of contemporary social issues, responsible for dialogues being more modern and full of silly quips (which often breaks setting immersion) and it´s responsible for the simplification of game mechanics.

Popularity is also responsible for unfocused development and allocation of resources. They are literally focusing on customizing genital size when that time and money could go to creating additional classes, races, spell animations, crafting systems, adding companions, maps, adding a dungeon master mode... i mean there are so many things more important. The sex scenes are not even explicit for fucks sake, heck, some RPGs give you insane customization options only to then become first person experiences.

Sadly if the games were not popular presentation suffers considerably. Take CRPGs for example, the pathfinder games have the more complex builds and better mechanics but are less popular than BG3 or DoS so when it comes to other RPG aspects like solving things through dialogues or coming up with the kind of ideas that would work on PnP like using environmental assets they just fall short.

I guess that it all comes down to a game offering acceptable tradeoffs.

>>3911957
Rpgs and jrpgs seem to be just as easy now in 2026 as they were in 1996. I don’t see much difference besides now they can be even more bloated with menu systems, cutscenes and larger maps/towns/dungeons but the skill or intelligence behind them seems the same.

>>3911985
kill yourself
I've had a working definition of RPG for years. I share it with /vrpg/ all the time and see a lot of posters here sharing it on their own. It's a very practical way to get the essence of a videogame RPG while accommodating a wide range of subgenres and understanding where the edge cases are and why they may be harder to classify. And it works on the overwhelming majority of games that people have considered RPGs for the last 50 years. And where it may not, it's usually easy to see why popular opinion may have been mistaken.

Also OP is a faggot there's plenty of room for games that appeal all manner of players.

>>3912020
>I've had a working definition of RPG for years.
A working definition of RPG?
Localized here, entirely within /vrpg/?
May we see it?

>>3911957
Everything becoming popular inevitably ruins it

>>3912021
Maybe tomorrow, if no one else posts it before then and this thread hasn't turned into a shitshow full of retards.
It's one or two sentences,
it's not "game where you play a role"
It's not "game where you make choices about the narrative"

>>3912023
Truth. I miss Legend of Zelda.

>>3911957
i think we keep trying to blame everything besides private equity and costs

>>3911957
No, on the contrary. Luckily for you, you can still play unpopular RPGs.

>>3912020
>>3912024
>I have a workable definition but I can't give it out right now.
Then it is likely not a workable definition.

>>3911985
The definition of an RPG must come from within, it cannot be given to others. If you haven't grokked the genre to the point where you know an RPG when you see one, then you don't belong here and should simply be mocked.

>>3911957
Nah, popularity helped end the obtuse, poorly designed gameplay of a lot of older WRPGs and stopped the retarded hipster circlejerk that killed so many beloved oldfag franchises.

That said, it brought in a whole bunch of problems like >>3911992 points out. It's fundamentally a tradeoff, and both have their good points. I sure do wish we could have the good points of both though.

>>3912071
Conveniently allowing you to not have to bring anything substantial to the conversation or defend your beliefs in any way.

>>3911957
Noooooo, it just happens to be the only thing ever to have not been spoiled by adding normalfags to the mix....

RPGs were never about being smart, just patience to withstand the bullshit

>>3911957
100%

>>3912069
It definitely is.
Funny that you think my wanting to sleep and see what kind of retards and dishonest trolls show up in this thread would have anything to do at all with the viability of a genre definition.

>>3912134
>I have many workable definitions of RPG, they just go to other schools, so you can't see them

>>3912136
No no it's real it's good I just need to get my 8 hour sleep and avocado sandwich before I prepare my weekly essay for a definition of video game genre. Unless you guys are being mean to me again.

>>3912136
>>3912139
You guys are just proving you are dishonest shitposters not seriously interested in the topic even a little.

>>3912152
No please tell us your definition for the 100th time, this time it will be the definitive definition

>>3912152
>I totally was going to tell you, but now I won't. Hmpf. Too bad!

>>3912156
If other anons show up and demonstrate genuine interest, I will post it.
You should try guessing. I already gave clues.

Hello everyone! I'm here for the first time. I'm pleased to meet you all!

Does anyone know where I could get a definition for RPGs?

>>3912023
Except for Def Leppard. Mid-late 80s Def Leppard was better than early 80s Def Leppard. I will die on this hill.

>>3911992
People are turning into mushy brains in real-time. Even intelligent or educated people are conforming to idiocracy.
No dev right in his mind will skip the modern approach to developing games, like
>insertion of contemporary social issues, responsible for dialogues
People expect this and if a product misses it, it'll castrate sales.

>>3912162
Sorry, I must have left the definition in my other pants

>>3912082
You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink.
No one can give you enlightenment, you must find it in yourself.
I'll give you a hint though: What makes a hybrid?

>>3912219
>People expect this and if a product misses it, it'll castrate sales.
No.
Game journalists who don't really care about games expect it.
Influencers, youtubers, content creators and other parasites of the internet era expect it because it's a lazy way of generating engagement.
Trannies, if not already included in the above, expect it because they can't do anything if it isn't related to trannism.
The vast mayority of people who play or would play games don't give a shit.

>>3912023
It made guns a lot better

>>3912390
Guns getting popular made war worse.

>>3911985
>Again, /v/ & /vrpg/ would have a hissy fit if anyone gives a workable definition of an RPG.
Sorry, but genres aren't scientific constants that we can always precisely measure.
We also don't need to do that.
Very few people are so autistic that they can't understand how StarCraft is not an rpg, while Baldur's Gate is one.
Genres are mostly based on convention, marketing and journalism, and that's good enough. There are a few times when genres work beyond those 3, for example RTS will never refer to a turn based game, since the real time explicitly excludes it, but due to convention every real time game isn't an RTS, even if we associate it with strategy, so a real time and a strategy game like Europa Universalis instead is referred to as Grand Strat because of marketing. Civilization games are TBS games, Turn Based is non-negotiable, and we understand them as Strategy games, but because of journalism we can be more specific and call them 4x games.

There are degrees where there's confusion and disagreement, but in broad terms RPG is useful for discussions.

>>3911957
i love when people talk about RPGs being "popular" now when FF7 in order to succeed had to recoup a $45 million budget as a console exclusive in the 90s, when $60 for a game was actually a lot

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>>3912418
Squaresoft uses "FF7"
It's super effective!

>>3912424
>uses "FF7"
*uses "CGI"

>>3912424
1.5 million sales in first week for the OG

New vegas is actionshit, not an rpg.

>>3911957
Absolutely, and more than most genres,

I can think of only one genre that suffered more: RTS. The singleplayer campaign RTS died for esport players' sins.

>>3912355
>parasites of the internet
Meaning gaslighting gatekeepers

>>3911957
It's not "dumbing down", it's "Laziness".

Devs are too lazy to make proper questlines.
Devs are too lazy to make extensive systems.
Devs are too lazy to make proper dungeons.
Devs are too lazy to make enemies that rely on clever tactics and gimmicks.
If they're not "lazy" they are free to develop an extensive dungeon with challenging enemies and release it as a mod or a free DLC to prove that they are not the problem. Until then, I will continue to assume they are simply lazy.

>>3912458
Esports were a fucking mistake. Nintendo was right to be opposed to Smash Bros being competitive. If you want to play a competitive game, go play chess and stop shitting up entire genres.

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>>3912416
>but in broad terms RPG is useful for discussions.
It really isn't. We are getting to "including the antonym" levels of bad. The problem is large slice of normalfags want to phase out RPG elements. When people say that Skyrim isn't an RPG, people could still call it action adventure with roleplaying elements or even ARPG but what happens when a niche turn based dungeon crawler isn't an RPG then what fuck is it? A Dungeon Crawler is by definition a type of RPG.

>>3912443
The same goes for the rest of the ES series.

>>3912572
is Starcraft an rpg?

>>3912572
That's a general problem with genre, what do?

>>3912585
1, 2, & 3 disqualifies it.

>>3912588
The RPG genre is unique as it is both very broad (encompasses a lot of games) and very vague (poorly defined and lacks any hard boundaries).

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The moment Square felt the need to release an "Easy Type" version of FFIV is the moment it was basically over for mainstream JRPGs.

November 1991.

>>3912572
>a mish-mash of mechanical and narrative criteria in the same list implying same priority
>Diablo fits the criteria
>DnD-based games before 3e don't
sheeeeeeeaash anon
any attempt at defining an rpg as a set number of rigid criteria is destined to fail
you can make a list of rpg elements and the more boxes a game ticks the more it is an rpg

>>3912612
>Diablo fits the criteria
>DnD-based games before 3e don't
You didn't read it if came to that conclusion.
>narrative criteria in the same list implying same priority
What narrative criteria?

>>3912602
The worst of two worlds, lol

>>3912610
Easy type?

>>3912602
>1, 2, & 3 disqualifies it.
Your image doesn't matter in relation to your claim.
I said.
>but in broad terms RPG is useful for discussions.
You claimed.
>It really isn't.
If Starcraft isn't an rpg, then rpg is a useful term in broad terms for discussion.

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>>3912572

>>3912801
has that dude ever made a single comic that wasn't retarded?

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>>3912810
>has that dude ever made a single comic that wasn't retarded?
Yes.

>>3912810
He made a comic about fucking your mom iirc, it was very fast paced

>>3912814
>the internet is srs bizness
still tarded
>>3912815
i don't think you thought that one through

>>3912849
>i don't think you thought that one through
Your mom got ran through

>>3912849
>i don't think
first honest thing you've said

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>>3912602
>The RPG genre is unique as it is both very broad (encompasses a lot of games) and very vague (poorly defined and lacks any hard boundaries).
That's very common in classification. You're saying that you can't define a forest because there might be trees in the grassland. You don't believe the desert exists because you're at an oasis. You think there's no such thing as a mammal because a platypus lays eggs. (And be real, you don't need a scientist to classify a platypus for you in order to know that dogs and cats can be classified differently from eagles and snakes).

Anyway, the succinct definition I came up, distilled from a much longer and more elaborate one after lots of discussions on /vrpg/, is the following:

>In the context of Video Game Genres, an RPG is what you get when you take the abstract mechanics of a tactical wargame and play as a unit on the field rather than a commander on high, and focus on independent adventures rather than military engagement. RPGs are a family of videogames that have evolved from these principles, without evolving so far away as to become a different existing Video Game Genre.
This definition is both flexible and practical.

>Tactical wargame mechanics
This is where the stats come from and the decision-oriented gameplay based on them. Too much simulation is a sim, not an RPG. Not enough sim is a puzzle game or a chance game or something else.
>Unit on the field
You play a single character or a small group of companions, emphasizing their individual development rather than the development of the squad/platoon/army as a whole.
>independent adventure rather than military engagement
You aren't automatically part of an army hierarchy.
You also aren't doing something non-adventurous like running a dress boutique.
Presumes a viable world to adventure in.

>>3912857
so he's a quick shot, even with old ladies? lol, what an "own".

>>3912874
Didn't dnd derive from a wargame and how did you come up with it?

>>3912878
No that suggest many people fucked your mom, your mom's been ran through, meaning she's had many sexual partners.

>>3912874
For me, it’s “I know an RPG when I see one”

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Behold, a first person shooter
Ignore all motherfuckers who think they can create a 100% perfect classification system for something as categorically complex as videogames

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>>3912929
Pretty much
People might say a certain type of game isn't an rpg, but that's usually resolved with a qualifier, like jrpg

>>3912927
ah, it's zoomer slang. no wonder it doesn't make sense.

>>3912947
Made sense to your mom

>>3912949
ok

>>3912947
>it's zoomer slang
Pretending to be an old fag is cringe.

>>3912988
oldfag*

>>3912997
I think he was saying you were half pretending to be an older gay man, not someone who has posted on 4chan for a long time

>>3912799
>>3912874
>That's very common in classification. You're saying that you can't define a forest because there might be trees in the grassland. You don't believe the desert exists because you're at an oasis. You think there's no such thing as a mammal because a platypus lays eggs. (And be real, you don't need a scientist to classify a platypus for you in order to know that dogs and cats can be classified differently from eagles and snakes).
Do you even know what the word mammal means? Do you know what mammaries means? It doesn't mean live births. Let's now talk about vertebrates. Guess what they have in common?

>>3912799
>If Starcraft isn't an rpg, then rpg is a useful term in broad terms for discussion.
1) What definition is considered good just because it excludes.
>This definition of woman doesn't include males who aren't sexpests who enter the women's bathroom thus the debate is over.

>>3912929
That is intellectual lazy.

>>3912944
That is just retarded.

>>3913009
>Do you even know what the word mammal means?
Do you know that Starcraft isn't an rpg?

>>3913034
Based on my definition or the mainstream because people would definitely call Warcraft 3 an RPG by the latter.

>>3913039
>Based on my
No no no.
No one cares about your gay little definition that you've tried to shill on the board before, it's useless, no one respects it and people ignored it the other times you posted it.

You should be able to answer the question without following an autistic checklist you made up yourself.
Everyone else can.
Are you the only person on this board who is so stupid that you can't tell if Starcraft is or isn't an rpg?

>>3913041
Nobody cares about the normalcattle definition because it is for marketers. No matter how not an RPG something is if Bethesda or EA says otherwise, it is an RPG.

>>3912988
i guess, roleplay is p. cringe in general.

>>3913039
Warcraft 3 is not an RPG, although it's moving in that direction.
Based on this definition: >>3912874
You can see how you can take a wargame model and tweak elements toward an RPG. Characters like Arthas and Thrall take the field as Hero Units but are also the characters nominally in command of the armies you control. As I recall there are occasional scenarios where the hero units operate without the armies.
But as a whole, Warcraft 3 is still solidly an RTS game, no matter how often people joke about it being an RPG, because they don't like even the mild shift in focus. Only complete retards are fooled and take that literally. The mechanics are still primarily focused around gathering and resources you use to build structures and disposable units to defend the resources and send at the enemy faction to destroy them (or sometimes complete some other strategic military objective).

>>3912929
>>>3912874 (You)
>For me, it’s “I know an RPG when I see one”
That's basically what I'm getting at when I said:
>you don't need a scientist to classify a platypus for you in order to know that dogs and cats can be classified differently from eagles and snakes
I would rely on an anon trusting their intuition over a retard who isn't good at language trying to apply logic and definitions.

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>>3913065
>Warcraft 3 is not an RPG, although it's moving in that direction.
Because there is general idea of what is an RPG which gets manipulated marketers and normalfags who muddy the definition of an RPG to move towards the omnigenre. Sportsball, racing games, shooters, & fighting games have stable audience of ni-consolefags so there is no need for the omnigenre. The omnigenre is for Sony movie games designed to be the modern blockbuster where everyone experience, talk about, then forget. For Bethesda, it is the other end of the spectrum where it is intended as a forever game thus the push for horse armor and monetizing mods.

>>3913070
>you don't need a scientist to classify a platypus for you in order to know that dogs and cats can be classified differently from eagles and snakes
>I would rely on an anon trusting their intuition over a retard who isn't good at language trying to apply logic and definitions.
You sound like one of those gigaretards who would say a woman is anyone who make your dick hard because you would sooner admit that you are a faggot than confront the groomer collective.

A platypus is a mammal. A whale is a mammal. A whale isn't a fish. Muh conventional wisdom is as retarded as muh wisdom of the masses. The masses are retarded.

>>3913097
>A whale is a mammal. A whale isn't a fish
Godly Post Of the Whale (GPOW)

>>3912063
this

>>3912572
>that pic
>Action, Puzzle and Adventure as a triangle
What even is adventure? Adventure games are puzzle/exploration games named after the game Adventure (Colossal Cave Adventure). And if it means adventure in the general sense of the word as an exciting undertaking filled with risk and possible danger, then that overlaps with Action. Unless it just means exploration but why not just write that then.

>>3912622
Diablo fits every criteria of that definition. D&D does not. Go back to the drawing board.

>>3911957
Yes, but not in terms of difficulty but rather variability.
>>3911985
RPG is Role-Playing Game - and it is what here is called TTRPG (irl tabletop games).
CRPG is an attempt to reproduce mathematical system behind interaction mechanics in PC, while putting as believable crutch to replace playing a role and immersing yourself as your character as possible - mostly through pre-written dialogues (including those with choices) and scripted reactions, partially governed by the aforementioned interaction mechanics.
As in tabletop games there are math and DM for main interpretator of both interaction mechanics and players' decisions, so there are math and computer interpretator, that, however, can only recognize and interpret only a limited amount of players' decisions - and only those already programmed in them.
Action-RPGs and RPGs with action elements (first are Oblivion, Dark Souls and, lately, Path of Exile, second are Morrowind and Diablo 1-2) are separated by the simple moment - if action is the main gameplay feature and stats, when overleveled, substract action moves variations through making them unnecessary, or if stats (and, to a lesser extension, tactics) are the main gameplay element, but action parts allow to go with wider variety of stats distribution through making some stats unnecessary if used and thus allowing for wider variations.
JRPGs are just a combat system of AD&D without any roleplay, so are dungeon crawlers like Wizardry (which, in fact, are proto-JRPGs) - so, basically, ARE NOT RPGs unless you do the roleplay part in your head.
Castleroids are Action-RPGs.
Mass Effect 1 is on the border between Action-RPG and RPG-Action.

>>3913153
>Adventure games are puzzle/exploration games
Yes
>named after the game Adventure (Colossal Cave Adventure).
No
>And if it means adventure in the general sense of the word as an exciting undertaking filled with risk and possible danger, then that overlaps with Action.
Yes, it was common to describe a mixture of both as “action/adventure”

>>3913157
You mean the real time dungeon crawler when the first criteria was avatar strength not how fast you can spam the potion hotkey.

>>3913153
>Action
Reaction based gameplay.
>Puzzle
The tools to solve it in front you.
Ex: The door is locked and to unlock it requires solving a slide puzzle.
The solutions are more self contained.
>Adventure
As in Adventure games.
Ex: The door is locked and to unlock it you need ask the owner of the store but the key was stolen by a crow in the fifth floor of an apartment but the apartment owner is a writer who won't leave the cafe forcing you to cut the Internet connection from the cafe but you need boltcutters and instead of just going to the hardware store you decide to steal it from your neighbor who won't give it you so have to make a Rube Goldberg machine in his kitchen to cause a grease fire to distract him from his tool shed.

>>3913177
>while putting as believable crutch to replace playing a role and immersing yourself as your character as possible - mostly through pre-written dialogues (including those with choices) and scripted reactions, partially governed by the aforementioned interaction mechanics.
> mostly through pre-written dialogues
This is one of the crucial mistakes that the definition here: >>3912874 aims to correct.

The confusion likely comes from people trying to explain what TTRPGs are to people accustomed to Scrabble, Poker and Monopoly. Concepts like taking on a role and working your way through a narrative are major differences to what people normally expect from a tabletop game and serve as a practical, intuitive classifier even though actual RPGs involve a lot more than that. So people become very overly invested in this aspect of an RPG.

This is very different from videogames, where taking a role in a narrative is routine and common. An overwhelming majority of (PC and console) video games do this. Consequently, the medium includes other closely-related game genres that require distinction: Interactive Fiction, Simulation, and Tactical wargames. Adventure Games, Visual Novels and CYOAs fit under the Interactive Fiction umbrella. Simulation is an even broader term but relevantly include immersive sims, survival sims and life sims. Immersive sims and survival sims often overlap or hybridize with RPGs, despite being distinct genres.

>Dungeon crawlers like Wizardry [...], basically, ARE NOT RPGs unless you do the roleplay part in your head.
Here's an example of your definition failing and mine not. You you're clever when in fact that should be a red flag that you've fucked up.
- Tactical wargame combat: decision-oriented, stats-oriented, risk-oriented, etc.
- Focused on individual units
- Focused on Adventure (not mundane life): dungeon crawling mechanics, lots of lore, narrative, world-building.
RPG.

>>3913253
So what do you call a puzzle/exploration game without any adventuring?

>>3913075
I can't cure retardation and obsession about things that don't matter.
Marketing people fucking with common usage of terms doesn't mean the terms don't also retain a more stable meaning over time, especially among people actually interested in the relevant genres and use the terms day to day. Marketing fags are often dominated by short-term motives and chase the latest trends. So one day RPGs are hot and you want to call your game an RPG, next day RPGs are toxic and you want to brand as something else. You can be patient and look through the noise.

Warcraft 3 is definitely not an RPG. It never has been and never will be. Neither is Starcraft.

>>3913097
>A platypus is a mammal. A whale is a mammal. A whale isn't a fish.
You only know this because you read the work of a scientist and believed it. You haven't ever thought hard about the taxonomy process and that's why the topic of RPG genres confounds you so hard.
>Muh conventional wisdom is as retarded as muh wisdom of the masses. The masses are retarded.
Aside from the masses being smarter than YOU, you aren't even getting my point right. I'm neither referring to conventional wisdom or wisdom of the masses, I'm referring to intuitive PATTERN RECOGNITION. Men fooled by trannies have defective pattern recognition and are an extreme minority.

>>3913153
I'm not that retard with the triangle pic and half-assed 4-point criteria, but when I say "Adventure" is an essential component of an RPG I do mean this:
>an exciting undertaking filled with risk and possible danger
And the point there is to distinguish RPGs from games like Princess Maker or Kim Kardashian: Hollywood.
>then that overlaps with Action
Not really, they are distinct in that adventure is more about the premise and narrative elements where action is more about the gameplay mechanics.
RPG = "Wargame mechanics + single unit emphasis + adventure"

>>3913288
A puzzle game, or a “point and click adventure game” (“adventure game” was often used as shorthand)

>>3913291
>Aside from the masses being smarter than YOU, you aren't even getting my point right. I'm neither referring to conventional wisdom or wisdom of the masses, I'm referring to intuitive PATTERN RECOGNITION. Men fooled by trannies have defective pattern recognition and are an extreme minority.
Karma upvote. It is never about being fooled; it is about refusing to give a definitive answer to avoid offending tranoids since they are the current protected class.
>You only know this because you read the work of a scientist and believed it.
Men can't get pregnant. Being a normalfag isn't about being normal or being average; it is about overvaluing conforming to society's norms.
>You can be patient and look through the noise.
Everything is shit because of normalfags. Normalfags are so desperate to enjoy something that they will praise anything that they perceive as slightly less shit than what is out currently.

>>3913177
>JRPGs are just a combat system of AD&D without any roleplay, so are dungeon crawlers like Wizardry (which, in fact, are proto-JRPGs) - so, basically, ARE NOT RPGs unless you do the roleplay part in your head.
Isn't the "in your head" shit the cope Bethesdrones make for TES?

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>>3913311
>it is about refusing to give a definitive answer
Speaking of refusing to give a definitive answer, is Starcraft an rpg?

>>3913314
No but that it is like saying most men can't get pregnant and calling people creeps for "caring about people's genitals".

>>3913319
>No
Good
>>3912572 is proven wrong then.
In broad terms RPG is useful for discussion, even if definitions aren't perfectly agreed upon, since you're able to to tell that some games clearly don't belong within the genre.

>>3913326
>In broad terms RPG is useful for discussion, even if definitions aren't perfectly agreed upon,
Saying 99% of men can't get pregnant isn't particularly brave or accurate. Just saying that 1% can is enough to make discussion worthless.

>since you're able to to tell that some games clearly don't belong within the genre.
Why are you my judgement to disprove the flaws of the "consensus"? I don't believe any man can get pregnant.

>>3913336
>quadrupling down on the retarded and baggage-laden gender analogy
You seem to be in way over your head and are getting desperate. Maybe take a step back and consider that you might be wrong about some pretty basic concepts before digging yourself even deeper.

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>>3913368
>never made any attempt to address it
>Leftist push retarded bullshit; normalfags conform.
>Normalfags push non-RPGs as the epitome of RPGs; /v/ & /vrpg/ pretends skyrim is an underrated gem.
>Everybody agreed on the worst implementation because less than 1% whined.
It is a shit test and you keep failing.

If your character doesn't need to shit then it's not an RPG.

>>3913378
Thinking you had to define gender is what made the words twistable by autistics, rather than going by common sense. Everybody knows what a man or woman is, it's definitions that confuse people

>>3913378
You're arguing with hallucinations.
Like I said, you are in way over your head. You can't even keep track of who is saying what.

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>>3913336
>Why are you my judgement
Because you replied to me with an uninformed claim.
I asked you a question that revealed how wrong you were.
You were too scared to answer, so you dodged for a while with your gender dysphoria tangents, I kept asking and then you caved and answered.
You don't need to continue, you've already admitted you're wrong.

>>3913435
No further questions, your honor.

>>3913414
Exactly.

>>3913435
>Because you replied to me with an uninformed claim.
Which want me to disprove a problem with the judgement of the majority using my judgement.
>I asked you a question that revealed how wrong you were.
Again most people aren't trannies and their sex isn't being contested.
>You were too scared to answer, so you dodged for a while with your gender dysphoria tangents, I kept asking and then you caved and answered.
Because you don't even seem understand the point.
>You don't need to continue, you've already admitted you're wrong.
>Trannies are muddy the definition of sex and gender
>But you know what is a woman so the definition isn't muddy checkmate

>>3913436
>>3913441
samefag

>>3913414
>Everybody knows what a man or woman is, it's definitions that confuse people
It doesn't matter that everyone knows if nobody is willing to call people out. In fact, the gender vs sex divide is also a way normalfags gave ground to the crazies.

>>3911957
>Do you think RPG is one case where becoming more popular has turned against the genre, with games having to be dumbed down for the average player?
That absolutely happened to TTRPGs.

>>3913564
>if nobody is willing to call people out
Definitions are a calling out. That's the point, once you accept that something needs to be defined, you've entered the trap of pedantry and legalese and endless debates and the triumph of those who can wordplay better or appeal to emotions better. That arena will always be held onto most strongly by passionate nutcases who want to use ideas because they have nothing else.

There's a fundamental issue here in that people think meaning is mere linear vocabulary, and this is the root of almost all problems of modernity. Self-consciousness out of control.

>>3913586
>Definitions are a calling out.
Which I said needs to be done.
>That's the point, once you accept that something needs to be defined, you've entered the trap of pedantry and legalese and endless debates and the triumph of those who can wordplay better or appeal to emotions better.
Because that is the problem with trannies, their definition for women is too rigid and only includes biological females.
>That arena will always be held onto most strongly by passionate nutcases who want to use ideas because they have nothing else.
Ah a vacuum. The perfect way to keep power in check is never seeking it and never setting boundaries. People only started taking land when draw up border.

>>3911957
No, because the most popular RPGs of all time (DOS2/BG3) are insanely much more complex than literally any predecessor crpg.

>>3913676
>baiting this hard
BG3 is targeted squarely at the casual audience. It's based on the most simplified and dumbed-down version of D&D yet, and featured a marketing campaign aimed squarely at faggots and women. It's the "critical role" nu-DnD for people who don't like DnD.

>>3913681
And yet it's still one of, if not the single most mechanically complex RPG ever made. Curious that.

>>3911957
Yes. But it's only one example of it happening, so at least there's the consolation that it isn't unique. And we also have the benefit of those other examples to teach us how to address the problem: gatekeeping works. Keep the pollution out, then you have no problem.

>>3913964
Not possible under capitalism. You have to remove the profit-seeking motive first.

>>3912157
The faggiest of faggot answers.

Faggot.

>>3912136
Read>>3912139
Until you drop dead in one of your kewl schewls

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>>3911957
>Behold, a woman!

>>3914378
>Plato later appended his definition to include “with two X chromosomes”

>>3913968
>if you aren't disingenuous shitposting nihilist asshole at all times it means you're a fag
The definition was posted here and nobody has refuted it: >>3912874

>>3912898
Yes, D&D was derived from chainmail.
This is not a coincidence, but the definition itself is not specifically about the origin of a given game. It's about the nature of the mechanics. The way wargames use statistical abstractions to model tactics and warfare forms the basis of RPG mechanics for combat and dungeon crawling.
>how did you come up with it?
I started with a much longer definition and had arguments about it on /vrpg/. The more I worked on trying to explain my points, the more I noticed redundant elements that could be combined with or implied by others. Eg I used to spend a lot of time trying to explain what makes for a good "RPG Game World," how game world is different from setting, and how an RPG game worlds tend to differ from action game worlds. I used to call it "decision-oriented gameplay" and explain what that means, which required a lot of specific qualifiers to distinguish from other decision-oriented games that aren't RPGs. I eventually realized most of these things are implied by the simple combination of 1st-person adventuring on a wargame foundation, so left them out.

>>3914456
>the more I noticed
As other anons pointed out correctly

>>3914541
Not usually.
Sometimes, but why do you even think it matters?
Reflects severely warped mindset.

>>3914541
Kek
>*/vrpg/ calling him a retard for years*
>hmm i notice flaws in my argumentation

>>3914543
I am finally nooticing
>>3914542
>Reflects severely warped mindset.
I keep nooticing
>warped mindset
Big words, eh, bud?

>>3914378
Really the heart of the issue.
More people should think about Diogenes.

>>3913596
>Which I said needs to be done.
I'm saying you're entering their battle by doing so. Definitions are a weakness to be exploited, because you've accepted that something NEEDS to be defined, when it should be self-evident.

I don't think you're are going to get what I'm talking about.

>>3914552
Honestly itt, people are acting like the point is definitions are gay when the tranny issue comes from the whole recursive definition
>a woman is someone who identifies as a woman
vs the straight forward definition
>an adult female human

People honestly think that
>an RPG is a game with the characteristics of an RPG
is a strong position.

>>3911957
Is it even a question. How do people not notice how every how brain dead normie games are. And that shit has been spilling into rpgs for quite some time. Bioware hit the sweet spot of normieshit and dungeon and dragon DM nerds but that ship sailed a long fucking time ago.

>>3912081
worlds biggest avowed fan right here

Sword and dragon. Amazing huge and swift buckler. Dodge across the wizard pit. And don't forget the goblin !!

>>3917850
nothing is sadder than posting all day on a website you hate. poor kids.

>>3911957
i felt that about 20 years ago

>>3911957
Maybe, but what bothers me more is that in the pursuit of being more "cinematic", most RPGs now don't let you oneshot bosses in hilariously broken ways anymore because that ruins the narrative impact or something.

>>3911957
there was some fag whining about xp loss in path of exile 2, and the game should be simpler for him because he had a job and a family. it got me thinking about how those people are basically the reason why the game industry has turned to shit.

>>3912874
>In the context of Video Game Genres, an RPG is what you get when you take the abstract mechanics of a tactical wargame and play as a unit on the field rather than a commander on high, and focus on independent adventures rather than military engagement.
No, that is not correct. Many RTS games (even with not having leveling elements like WC3) have missions with small number of units and "named characters" in them where you go on small adventures.

Also, even tabletop RPG has moved on from wargames-like games. Combat in most RPGs is one possibility besides different conflict resolution methods.

A definition that can encapsulate games like Elder Scrolls, CRPGS, Disco Elysium (all RPGs) must be different.

A RPG is a game that has stat-based gameplay. The more i reacts to your stats (skills, attributes, whatever), the more it is a RPG.

>>3921587
>Elder Scrolls, CRPGS, Disco Elysium (all RPGs)
You just included a point-and-click adventure game, though.

>>3921592
i can understand that people consider it not a rpg. but it has conflict resolution based on stats. i think it is one.

>>3911957
RPG - Role-Playing Game - as a genre itself is not unique, it is derived from tabletop wargames.
Thus RPG should be defined not on its own, but as changes list to wargames.
Wargame is tactical tabletop turn-based combat simulator game with a set of predefined, but optionally modifiable rules for two or more players competing against each other through controlling multiple units, where interactions between separate units are defined through matemathical relations of units' numeric parameters defined by various mathematical formulas, most of which include a factor of randomization in form of results of dice rolls, performed by players according to rules.
Thus RPG is the game above, but:
- each player controls one unit except game master player and special cases;
- players usually do not compete with each other, but against a single other player - game master;
- players' units has non-combat interactions, that can be performed either through matematical formulas in the same way combat interactions are or through verbal communications between game master player and other players;
- players are expected to "live through" roles of their units through their characters, game master player are expected to play roles of all units, that are not other players' units.
CRPG is a further change list, but this time for RPG:
- game master player is replaced by a set of predefined algorhytms and pre-written dialogues and scenarios;
- non-mathematical interactions are limited by aforementioned scenarios;
- rules may be modified (compared to original RPG rules) to contain other types of interaction between units as long as core interactions between units stay mathematical - that is, as long as majority of types of interactions are combat and non-combat mathematical interactions, that can't be avoided other than by other such mathematical interactions and has to be resolved through mathematical formula calculations involving numerical parameters of player's unit.

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It's an RPG because you play the role of a taffer.

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>>3921587
>Many RTS games (even with not having leveling elements like WC3) have missions with small number of units and "named characters" in them where you go on small adventures.
So? That just reinforces the point.
Yes, in Warcraft, every so often you'll have a little adventure mission where you have a small, fixed number of units. A mission that feels a lot like an RPG to play. But the game as a whole is not oriented around those missions. They aren't the focus and when they're done, you go back to peons farming wood and gold as you build your tech tree and train expendable military units.

An RPG is when you take the ideas behind those side missions and make an entire game out of it. Indeed, Tactics games are often called Tactical RPGs because they play so similarly to one.

>A RPG is a game that has stat-based gameplay. The more i reacts to your stats (skills, attributes, whatever), the more it is a RPG.
This is too general, because many games have "stats-based gameplay". Tactics and strategy games as already mentioned. Sports manager games. Sim games, survival games... and so on.

>A definition that can encapsulate games like Elder Scrolls, CRPGS, Disco Elysium (all RPGs) must be different.
The definition accurately classifies Disco Elysium as barely/maybe? an RPG. That's why it's a good definition.
Disco Elysium is what you get when you use an RPG game engine to implement an Interactive Fiction game design. Is it an RPG? Is it Interactive Fiction? A little of both? It has vestiges of the wargame stat system and dungeon crawling mechanics characteristic of RPGs, but with very different emphasis and gameplay outcome.

Games don't have to fit 100% cleanly into a single category. Developers are always pushing boundaries and experimenting, it's natural and totally expected for there to be questionable, borderline examples that are difficult to classify as one or the other.

>>3921667
>but as changes list to wargames.
Naeh.

>>3921667
Great post, I just have one minor nitpick
>Thus RPG should be defined not on its own, but as changes list to wargames.
I think defining in terms of wargames is just the easiest and most succinct way to summarize the core gameplay mechanics. You could isolate all the specific shared mechanics and enumerate/describe them, without explicit reference to wargames. But that would be very tedious.

>>3921697
If you can't understand it in those terms, you'll never understand it without.

>>3911957
Jarpigs have done nothing but devolve since the PS2 ended but RPGs as a whole have mostly climbed back out of the dark ages of the 7th gen despite being more popular now than ever before.

>>3921696
>Disco Elysium has vestiges of a wargame stat system and dungeon crawling mechanics
lol, lmao even
>it's natural and totally expected for there to be questionable, borderline examples that are difficult to classify as one or the other
Disco Elysium is quite easy to classify: it’s a point and click adventure game

>>3921722
Point and click adventure games have much better puzzles and no character builds. Disco Elysium is an extended reverse character creator in gamebook style with isometric RPG exploration elements.

>>3921696

I think your definition is too narrow. Disco Elysium is in my opinion clearly a RPG, although combat is lacking (up to a skillcheck). But there is a trend in TTRPG for narrative RPGs as well.

Sports managers and sim games do not have stat-based gameplay. The story and gameworld do not react to your stats and decisions (probably the second criterion of definition).
I agree that you should have to have some kind of "character build" to have a RPG, probably what you mean by wargames.

But I think it all depends on
> abstract mechanics of a tactical wargame
How do you define that? I think you are moving the problem to defining what a wargame is and its derived mechanics.

>>3921766
>a RPG
Opinion discarded.

>>3921766
>But there is a trend in TTRPG for narrative RPGs as well.
This is irrelevant.
TTRPGs are different in terms of genre classifications because the landscape of tabletop games is so different from videogames. The terms and concepts you use to distinguish tabletop games from Pictionary and Scrabble are different from the terms you need to distinguish RPGs from videogame genres like Interactive Fiction, Life Sim and Survival.

>>3921766
>> abstract mechanics of a tactical wargame
>How do you define that?
Gameplay that emphasizes decision-making on behalf of military units with abstract attributes designed to model battles and warfare on some reasonable simulation of a battlefield or combat theater. There should be mechanics to model chance and risk-taking. Spatial reasoning for tactical decisions is also highly desirable. Note this is very close to "turn-based gameplay with stats and dice-rolls" but is not exactly because you can still have real-time games that emphasize tactical decision-making and resource management, and you can find other ways to model risk and chance than rolling dice.

Most people will intuitively understand those to be key elements of "wargame mechanics" and don't need them spelled out.

>Sports managers and sim games do not have stat-based gameplay. The story and gameworld do not react to your stats and decisions (probably the second criterion of definition).
They absolutely do. Sports managers especially. You have stats for all your players and games revolve around making decisions based on those stats.

The real key with RPG stats is that they are both abstract and general. They aren't 100% realistic simulation because players need to be able to reason about them explicitly, and they are general in the sense that the stats and underlying formulas should be able to model a variety of unit types (as in a wargame).

>>3921764
Heh very well put

>>3911957
>one case
There are many such cases

>>3921824
>This is irrelevant.
It is highly relevant. Computer RPGs stem from TTRPGs and that similarity can be used to properly define them. As you do with wargames. The classification is similar, however the medium itself brings some changes.

>Most people will intuitively understand those to be key elements of "wargame mechanics" and don't need them spelled out.
Maybe, but this would also hold true for a RPG.
My point is: the definition of a wargame is as controversal as the definition of a RPG and people debate over it. I would classify most wargames as strategic boardgames. Strategy games with stats is not a good definition.

>They absolutely do. Sports managers especially. You have stats for all your players and games revolve around making decisions based on those stats.
True, maybe exploration of a game world should also be in the definition. The game world should react to your decisions and stats.

RPGs haven't been dumbed down or gotten any easier. You're just comparing your experiences with modern RPGs as an adult with your experience with retro RPGs as a 9 year old.

The reason RPGs were harder back then wasn't because they were designed harder, but because you were a 9 year old, and 9 year olds are fucking stupid.

>>3922036
clueless

>>3921997
>It is highly relevant. Computer RPGs stem from TTRPGs and that similarity can be used to properly define them.
No, it's not relevant, for the reasons I already alluded to and you failed to address.

In the tabletop context, defining an RPG as a "game where you take on the role of a character in a world" is sufficient to cover the overwhelming majority of games in the sphere. As games have evolved you might need to add a few minor qualifications to distinguish from some more modern games but still, the default tabletop game does not involve roleplaying in any meaningful way. You don't need some special, narrow, highly-qualified definition of the term "roleplaying." On tabletop, the term speaks for itself. There's no roleplaying in Scrabble or Poker, you're just yourself, playing a game.

In videogames, every fucking game involves taking on the role of a character in another world. So trying to use the tabletop definition inevitably leads to painfully circular, redundant or biased attempts to define what "roleplaying" really means in the context of a videogame RPG.

Furthemore, RPGs, on tabletop, offer a format for a wide range of gameplay ideas. TTRPGs can have survival and crafting mechanics. GMs can present elaborate interactive narratives, social dynamics and simulated scenarios for their players. In videogames, these ideas all have their own genres that have evolved distinctly from RPGs (survival, adventure, horror, interactive fiction, life sim, etc).

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>>3921997
>My point is: the definition of a wargame is as controversal as the definition of a RPG and people debate over it
The existence of debate, especially over edge cases, does not nullify the general understanding of the term as it applies to the use of it here, as the primary way to distinguish Videogame RPGs from all the numerous other kinds of videogames in which you "play a role".
To start from the Wikipedia page:
>A wargame simulates an armed conflict
>A wargame is adversarial
>A wargame must have a setting that is based on some historical era [...] A fantasy setting depicts a fictional world in which the combatants wield fictional or anachronistic armaments, but it should be similar enough to some historical era of warfare such that the combatants fight in a familiar and credible way.
>Wargames deal with multiple levels: tactical, operational and strategic.
RPGs inherit only the tactical level.
>A wargame must simulate warfare to a reasonable degree of realism [...] no wargame can be perfectly realistic. A wargame's design must make trade-offs between realism, playability, and fun, and function within the constraints of its medium.
>Complexity [this section is terribly written and somewhat a corrolary of realism, but the gist is that wargames have complex rules to model the various elements of combat and warfare, with 'counters' representing units with internal state and so on]

To follow wikipedia, we have an example of a Tactical Wargame: Squad Leader (1977). You have units with distinct traits aka "stats" (firepower, range, morale). Gameplay is organized into phases, with players making decisions and outcomes being determined by dice rolls and charts (pic related). The game is played on large boards implementing a quasi-realistic model of a large battlefield on a hexagon grid, with rules for 20+ different terrain types.

These are all the same fundamental mechanics you use to build an RPG.

>>3922287
>The existence of debate, especially over edge cases, does not nullify the general understanding of the term
I don't think Skyrim is just an edge case.

>>3925426
It's much closer to the edge than Baldur's Gate.
Skyrim is an Action RPG to begin with. This implictly acknowledging hybridization. Furthermore, Skyrim's gameplay is not designed as "action" challenges. They aren't tests of reflexes and muscle memory. They aren't about timing your i-frames or executing combos. Skyrim combat is more about being an expression of your character build. Skyrim literally lets you pause combat at any time and eat as many meals as you can carry. This replenishes health.

So Skyrim isn't a real action game, either.

It's not really interactive fiction. Although there are a lot of stories and questlines to follow, they're all optional and primarily serve to make the open world sandbox feel richer and more interesting.

Skyrim is a game where you take a character defined by stats and go on adventures in a simulated fantasy world. The stats and build system is streamlined and less numbers-autism than a "core" RPG, but it's still there and driving the gameplay. Combat and wilderness/dungeon exploration still forms the foundation of the gameplay(even if it's possible to avoid for long stretches of time). It's a sim-heavy, open world ARPG.

>>3925464
if skyrim is an arpg then call of duty is also an arpg

>>3925672
You are applying transitive reasoning in a retarded way, ignoring the entire point of the previous post, which stated:
>[Skyrim is] much closer to the edge [of the RPG genre] than Baldur's Gate.
In other words, Skyrim is near the edge of the boundary, and Call of Duty is on the other side of the boundary. Skyrim is a partial RPG, Call of Duty is not an RPG at all. Skyrim has sufficient RPG-like gameplay elements and design priorities that it is still reasonable to call it an hybrid RPG. Call of Duty does not. To tell the difference, you have to look at specific details. Some people are too stupid to perceive these details.

First and most important: Call of Duty's core gameplay fits cleanly into another, already existing genre: First-Person Shooter. Unlike Skyrim, which has apparent action mechanics but minimal emphasis on testing dexterity and reflexes like a real action game, Call of Duty has all the demands of situational awareness, dexterity, and reflexes standard to all FPS games.

Also, Call of Duty doesn't have character attributes and growth the way Skyrim does. Skyrim has lots of underlying stats and attributes determining your character's abilities across a wide range of areas (weapons, armor, stealth, smithing, enchanting, and so on). Call of Duty has only loadouts: strictly equipment-based builds for the mission or scenario.

Call of Duty has a mission-oriented structure or PvP, Skyrim has open-ended sandbox structure.

Yeah, time to hide this thread.

>>3925945
call of duty is my favorite rpg

>>3911957
Streamlining can be bad, but being complicated for no other reason than to be complicated is even worse.

>>3925975
Would be fascinating to see which posts this user contributed to the thread.

>>3925464
>>3925945
When I said
>>3925426
>I don't think Skyrim is just an edge case.
I meant is that despite Skyrim not fitting the definition of an RPG it is what a lot of people considers an RPG. It is epitome of RPGs to people just like how a tranny became a woman of the year.

>>3911957
I noticed it years ago when RPGs all started to become ARPGs. I wouldn't call it dumbing down, per se. It's more just an attempt to attract fans of other genres by including elements from those genres, and phasing out elements that fans of other genres don't like. Removing RPG mechanics has always been dressed up as "streamlining", and turning the games into FPSs in compact open worlds is just the natural evolution of RPG technology.

>>3927633
>It's more just an attempt to attract fans of other genres by including elements from those genres
When other genres include RPG elements, are they attempting to attract RPG fans?

>>3912026
A Link To The Past was my favorite, but all of the old Zelda titles are fantastic. I could not get into Breath of The Wild. I also don't play Zelda games anymore because my Father and I played them together. I was in a high-chair playing Metroid on NES, and the original Zelda.

When he passed when I was 18 I just lost the desire to play. I did play Twilight Princess fully with a girlfriend I had after he passed, she loved Zelda too and made it possible for me to still enjoy without becoming an emotional wreck.

I touched on Skyward Sword a bit and really wanted to play that too but we broke up by then and now I have nobody like that in my life so I'm back to not playing them. I can feel tears stinging my eyes now as I type this. The hurt never goes away.

Zelda is amazing though. I'm not sure if Breath of The Wild is something I'd enjoy if I could bring myself to play it. It didn't feel like Zelda when I tried for an hour (or less, I forget) and instead felt more like some open world action adventure game. Maybe it's actually good, and maybe I will play it when I have all my ducks in a row. I'd like to think my Father is standing beside me like Goku next to Gohan fighting Cell and I can go play it knowing he's experiencing it too.

>>3927670
Yes. Every genre is attempting to appeal to everyone by becoming generic slop

>>3927633
>I wouldn't call it dumbing down, per se
Opposite in fact

>>3927598
>it is what a lot of people considers an RPG. It is epitome of RPGs to people just like how a tranny became a woman of the year.
Yes, but at that scale, its meaning is quite diffuse and vague. These are people who in aggregate don't actually care what an RPG really is either way. They don't gatekeep discussions or get into arguments about semantics or fuss over how to classify Disco Elysium. They just accept what they are told in the moment by whatever authority owns them and has their attention. If they like Skyrim and are looking for similar games on Steam they may add RPG to the filters as they perform their search, and that will be the extent of their engagement.

>>3927670
Sometimes.
In some cases it's just that designers and devs will take good ideas wherever they find them, and aren't usually setting out to make a "genre game" anyway.
Also, in many cases, features that people often think of as "RPG elements" aren't actually. Multi-choice dialog and branching plot, for example, isn't an "RPG element," it's just interactive fiction. Character development is a rather incidental RPG element, as is progression in general. The Mega Man series has had progression since its inception, and it wasn't explicitly trying to appeal to RPG fans.

>>3927695
This. The goal is to turn any genre that isn't ripe for microtransaction into an evolving omnigenre which would result in a watercooler (everyone played the latest game) experience and be forgotten a month or so for the next game.

>>3927633
Everything is being dumb down. Why else would devs spend time making the controller the primary way to play FPSs?

>>3911957
yes, if you don't know music theory you have no business playing a bard.

>>3931642
>softly in the distance, you hear a Bb trumpet playing F A G, F A G, F A G

>>3911957
Yes. That applies to video games in general though. Imagine Grim Fandango without help from the internet with today’s audience.

>>3911992
You're talking about most big companie but Larian isn't compromised woke AAA being forced to do it that way. They are fruity and design games this way on purpose. They should have never been given Baldur's Gate

>>3925975
Bye, Felicia.

>>3911957
The tank/healer/dps formula has done more damage than anything else. It's strangled mechanical depth and more lateral planning, quashed more interesting roles and interesting support, and largely forced dudes in a row gameplay long after it was finished being a mechanical concession.

>>3935096
Tell us about those more interesting roles and more interesting support. Be specific about what you are imagining.

>>3935096
Outside of like ... controller, what other class roles are you missing? What depth is there outside of these?

>>3935096
>>3935104
>>3935117
the obsession with tank healer dps creates really awkward homogenized options.

i am not the guy you responded to but I see a state similar to what he likely does. when there arent any specific hard-defined roles its easier to make more varied and interesting mechanical kits for classes, while having to sit within the 3 roles themselves greatly diminished uniqueness.

thats why the major problem with rpgs that use that system almost exclusively run into the problem of everything is the same, feels the same, looks the same, plays the same. other than minute miniscule alterations that people can hang on as differences, even across games and design spaces they almost all end up exactly the same.

>>3935122
But you haven't explained how classes and kits you're imagining can't be described by the roles you don't like.
Lemme just cut to the chase. Tank / healer / dps (and / controller) are tactical roles. They are not contingent upon or related to classes any characters might use. They're roles which arise as tactical specializations due to much more fundamental game theory of combat. Insofar as characters MIGHT be constructed using "classes" in a traditional RPG sense, they will always fall within those categories.
It's sort of like how all food has certain tastes. This is because your taste receptors are not infinitely varied, but just ignore that for a moment for the sake of understanding an analogy. There's savory, there's sweet, there's sour, etc. There are dishes which combine these taste sensations in various ways, but whatever taste sensations your body cannot perceive simply do not exist in food you eat... for that reason. If you want to change that, you have to change the fundamental nature of your body.
You want to get rid of combat roles, you have to somehow fundamentally change what combat means.
Good luck with that.

>>3912874
Why have you come to the definition that you have? I and the good fellows of /vrpg/ would very much like to hear your full reasoning.

>>3939492
1. By playing and analyzing games in multiple genres and observing how people tend to talk about them.
2. When observing conversations, apply some filters to give some preference to people who seem to have experience and knowledge over careless or biased (eg marketing) views
3. Write down descriptions that seem to encompass most of the the games people call RPGs
4. Look at other people's definitions, poke holes in them and see where they break down. Remember, understanding what is NOT an RPG is as important as understanding what IS.
5. Argue the rough definitions to get feedback. See where the discussions go, pick up ideas along the way.
6. Identify redundancies to reduce verbosity and gradually consolidate and distill the definition into the fewest words possible, so the message can be delivered with maximum impact.

Initial definitions used more cumbersome and detailed explanations of gameplay mechanics, articulating concepts like abstraction and decision-oriented systems vs physical-oriented systems, and how to distinguish the types of decision-making that drives an RPG vs a puzzle game. There was more emphasis on the nature of the game world and how it should depict some kind of plausible world that people live in and not just a collection of Mario stages. There was explicit descriptions of what the content should generally be like, how it should be focused more on combat and dungeon crawling by default and not so much on generic life sim or interactive fiction elements.