>>3923521
>hear about this game receiving tons of praise
>buy it on xbox 360
>it's really good
>spend a month absolutely immersed in it
Playing ds1 as a noob was so good

>>3923521
>vast majority of armor sets cause you to fat roll
No, fat rolling is tied to your stats. You can backflip even while wearing Havels if your endurance is high enough.
>vast majority of weapons are dogshit if not carbon copies of superior weapons of the same category
Most weapons are perfectly decent, there are only a few weapons that are unintentionally bad. Sure, some are better than others, but that's always going to be the case.
>resistance as a stat
Fair.
>magic trivializes the entire game
Not really. It trivializes some parts, while making other sections even harder unless you are doing some sort of hybrid build. Any boss that doesn't give you room to breathe (like the Capra Demon for example) is going to be pretty miserable as a magic user. And of course magic is a limited resource, so while bosses get easier, long stretches of regular enemies can be difficult, especially at the beginning if you are new and don't know where to go or where the merchants are.
>second half is rushed garbage with shitty gimmick bosses
Nito and Seath are fine, and their areas are also reasonably good. Four kings is an attempt at an interesting boss that falls flat, but is not terrible. Bed of Chaos is garbage.

mobility does seem like it would be better in a setting with magic and ginormous things attacking you.

why did anon delete his posts? i think he raised a valid point that none of the games meaningfully iterate on each other.

>>3923620
Many weapons only seem bad because they are intended for a particular min-max niche that you won't notice if you aren't optimizing for a target level and playstyle. If you have extreme low strength, for example, most of your weapon choices are slash or piercing type. Weapons like the caestus and whip are your only options otherwise. Some weapons fill a gimmick niche more than a practical one.

>>3923521
Second half is slightly underwhelming, but the dlc makes up for that
>Vast majority of weapons are dogshit
git gud

I never even used magic in my playthrough, except for a few basic pyromancies. 27 str, 40 dex, the rest into stamina and hp, halberd, fap ring, wolf ring, and the heaviest armor I can wear without slow rolling
but I gotta admit I was cheesing it by end game. So much poise I could just stand in front of bosses and spam my attack and win just doing that, no magic needed
I always thought the way Dark Souls was hyped up as the hardest game ever made (and the constant comparison of "X is the Dark Souls of Y!") was a bunch of bullshit though. A bit punishing at times, but with some grinding and some practice any retard could beat it.

also what truly trivializes the game is learning how to parry

>>3923620
>Not really. It trivializes some parts, while making other sections even harder unless you are doing some sort of hybrid build.
fuckin' THANK YOU.
I've been saying this for years, and everyone just keeps saying the same few things about how magic is easy mode when it's abundantly obvious they've never actually tried it. let alone as a first playthrough.
It's always someone running past every enemy, or using normal weapons just to blast a few powerful nukes at a nearly stationary slow moving boss. No thought to the soul investment needed to actually unlock and properly use these spells, or what you could better use those souls for instead (like boosting health and carry weight to be practically untouchable with some good armor)

of all the playthroughs I've done, the easiest was my simple Knight run. Nothing but the Elite Knight armor, a quality longsword, and a knight's shield. The magic run I did shortly after that one was still harder.

I'll argue that it's definitely way OP in Demon's Souls, especially if you get the MP restoration ring (which one class starts with) but then they kind of did an overcorrection that wasn't fixed fully until Dark Souls 3. I've heard some call Magic underpowered in that game, but I felt like it finally fit in balance wise.

>>3925269
Agreed. If you're familiar with the game everything can be trivial. Simply giving a mage something to parry with solves quite a few problems. Or poise ring. Hornet ring and backstabs. Depends on what tools you're allowed for your "mage".

I liked how DS2 had lower starting stats and required more investment to carry even a longsword. It was easier to say fuck it imma go pure mage no shenanigans.

>>3925275
I hate to admit it since I'm an avid DS2 hater, but the early game leveling experience in that game felt way better than anything other in the series. Every level felt like it made a meaningful impact, and it really made you have to weigh which stats you actually wanted to pursue.
Also, I really like what it did with Attunement. I wish it had a more drastic effect on your spell uses so that having a 99 in Attunement could mean you basically never ran out even if you tried. (maybe even letting spells under a certain stat requirement threshold cast for free.)

Elden Ring is my favorite game, full stop, but it's also the worst in the series in this aspect. I never felt like gaining any levels really made a difference. And I always got level ups way too slowly for how large the world is, and how fast you can progress in it. It really fucks with the soft-caps and hard-caps in weird ways. You barely gain any FP until Mind 20. Only then does it actually start making a difference.

I swear I tried magic in every Souls game on a replay after having heard they're op, but they're all so slow and shit. I hated using them in every game.

>>3925284
The strongest spell in DS3 and Elden Ring is the one that literally turns your wand into a straight sword.

File: mace ds.png (45 KB)

45 KB PNG

>>3923521
>Best weapons aren't the ultra mega boss soul weapons upgraded with the rarest material but rather the mundane buy it from a shop early game starting weapons you upgrade with junk

Once you get a bit of experiance under your belt it's kind of depressing how little you pay attention to treasure and pick ups

Are souls games the latest fantasy universes to get mainstream attention?

I got lore videos recommended to me on youtube and that got me thinking

>>3925468
halberd is the best weapon in the entire series

>>3925065
The only boss you can parry in the entire game is Gwyn and you would only figure this out through pure luck or a guide. Dark Souls 1 does nothing to incentivize the player to learn how to parry and parrying is a feature that is only useful for PVP, difficult mobs such as black knights that can be entirely ignored to begin with, and killing specific NPC’s for their gear. There is nothing about parrying that would trivialize the game because it’s a feature that is easily ignored and unneeded for any progression.

>>3925484
>unneeded for any progression.
Midwit strikes again. What isn't unneeded

>>3925484
most normal enemies can be parried. In this game, it's the easiest to learn the timing. Once you do, it can be easier than dodging.
the other games in the series really go all in on dodging being the primary way to avoid damage, but Dark Souls was a bit different by making dodging sometimes a really bad move, either because it moves you away from the enemy, leaves you open to a followup if you do it wrong, leads you to roll off a ledge, or just takes too long.

>>3925284
Magic has an OP rep for 2 main reasons:
1. There are a number of sections where magic's range and partial-unblockability makes some enemies very easy to cheese.
2. A min-maxed sorcerer is one of the most accessible and easily-used glass cannon builds, able to take down bosses in just a few hits. This is notable in a game where most of the bosses feel like damage sponges on a normal playthrough, no matter what your build.

>>3925469
Just went on a lore dive for Dark Souls 1 on YouTube and can confirm there's some good deep dives on there

>>3925484
Unless you're playing a magic build, you need to parry to progress past the silver knights in Anor Londo, or the Darkwraiths in New Londo.

>>3923521
>vast majority of armor sets cause you to fat roll
This is only a problem for people who fall for the "rollslop" meme and think the game was intentionally designed around rolling to avoid everything. You can still beat the game, and in some places will have an easier time if you play a tankier build instead of dodge rolling through everything.
Poise is essential for builds that rely on blocking and is extremely useful for anyone using slow weapons so they can get a swing off without being staggered.

Armor also opens up more stat distributions. Having 60% damage mitigation against a type of damage is the same as having +60% more HP against that type meaning you don't have to put as many points into health, in fact you get double the benefit from putting points into endurance because not only do you get more stamina, but the bonus to carry weight boosts your survivalbility by allowing you to wear heavier armor without slowdown. You can easily get to Anor Londo with no points put into health while still face-tanking a bunch of shit just with good armor (like the elite knight's) and a good shield, freeing a bunch of souls to put into other things. The heaviest unblockable attacks are usually telegraphed enough that you can just circle-strafe or fat roll to avoid them.
PvP is the only thing that necessitates fast rolls because otherwise you will back backstabbed to death.

>>3923620
>Any boss that doesn't give you room to breathe (like the Capra Demon for example) is going to be pretty miserable as a magic user.
The thing is, most people who "play" Dark Souls do so with a walkthrough and build guide open the entire time (that's probably why they chose to use magic to begin with) and the capra demon is completely avoidable, which they probably will since their walkthrough is probably telling them to pick the master key as their starting item and take the back route into Blighttown instead of going the intended route through the depths. You only need to kill capra demon if you need pyromancies or the large ember or anything in the depths.

Very few people actually play through these games blind or with minimal help on their first playthrough these days. To be the fair the games aren't always intuitive so I don't fault people for looking some things up but the average rollslop consumer now has 50 wiki tabs open before starting the game for the first time.

>>3925780
>Capra Demon is completely avoidable
I guess, but not ideally in your first playthrough.
You have to go through Darkroot garden, find an easy-to-miss pathway, take an elevator up through the valley of drakes, all the way down to Blighttown and over to Quelagg. Each of those areas is a pretty big step up in difficulty from the Undead Parish.
(you could also use the Master Key to go right to Blighttown, but you really should guess that it's not the default way to go just from that)
And that's not even to mention that doing that skips almost two entire zones and a boss.

>>3923620
>>3925269
EXACTLY
I did a mage character blind way back in the day and anyone who will tell you it's easy mode is either a schizo or doesn't know half the shit requires you to complete DS1 side quests which aren't exactly the most transparent if you don't have a wiki open 24/7 and that's ontop of limiting yourself to a certain number of attacks per bonfire

>>3925791
I got called a smoothbrain by a youtube comment (because they can't say retard) when I said magic isn't actually easy mode.
His reasoning: Dark Bead is overpowered.
Apparently he just didn't know that you have to beat Fucking Artorias to get this "OP" spell (with four uses total, and practically useless on the other two DLC bosses that you'll need to fight after Artorias)
I kind of get it if you're talking about PvP, but when's the last time you saw one of those minmaxed "in it to win it" dudes ninja-flipping around with Logan's Catalyst, and Dusk's Crown? It's never, because they all go Giant-Dad with Zweihander.

also Vancian magic is a blight on gaming.

>>3923521
A game can have flaws and still be good.

>>3925758
Not even close.
Both of those enemy types are easily defeated using any number of approaches.

>>3925780
>Very few people actually play through these games blind or with minimal help on their first playthrough these days.
I actually see a surprising number of people who play totally blind. There was a weird culture about it for Dark Souls, even to the point of there being a meme about "kill the dogs first" a cryptic hint specifically referencing the Capra fight. I suspect the average guide-using player probably does not skip Capra, even if they get the Master Key. The Large Ember is in the Depths, even if people skip Blighttown with the Master Key they probably want the ember, and the only legitimate way in is through Capra.
There was a tradition of skipping Blighttown because it wasn't just cramped and difficult, but the original console versions of the game had severe framerate issues in the swamp (xbox was worse than ps3 iirc).
>>3925065
Frankly, backstab is more exploitable. Parry, even when you're good at it, at least carries inherent risk of fucking up and taking damage.
>>3925827
>also Vancian magic is a blight on gaming.
You deserve to be called a smoothbrain for that comment, though.

>>3925927
>Frankly, backstab is more exploitable. Parry, even when you're good at it, at least carries inherent risk of fucking up and taking damage.
As counterpoints, parrying is good at narrow spaces like on bridges and ledges against snake men and silver knights. It can be faster to pull off and grants invincibility which is beneficial against multiple opponents.

Most importantly some versatility is more fun than always circling for backstabs.

One reason I didn't have as much fun with DS2 was that I couldn't pull off parries as consistently, so the game was about as difficult but less "flashy"

>>3925930
>Most importantly some versatility is more fun than always circling for backstabs.
which is why I generally don't use either mechanic much. Parrying feels awesome to do every so often and certainly it's hard to resist when Darkwraiths do that charging attack. But essentially every single build parries and backstabs the exact same way. Maybe with a parrying shield you have a few extra frames and a fastroll build will have an easier time maneuvering for the backstab but none of the other aspects of your weapon or build matter. Always felt kind of lame to me that this game with such a rich variety of weapons with different hitboxes and movesets all just become irrelevant.

>>3925974
>But essentially every single build parries and backstabs the exact same way.
Eh you can always go magic, greatshield, twohand a weapon, whip, bow, dual wield

>>3925993
Point is that backstab works the same way no matter the build.
>magic
Circle strafe and R1 with magic/enchanted dagger
>greatshield
Circle strafe and R1
>2-handed weapon
Circle strafe and R1
>whip, bow
Cannot backstab with these weapons, so yeah if these are exceptions. But only exceptions because the backstab mechanic is literally disabled for these builds.
>dual wield
Circle strafe and R1
Very impractical build, btw. Just reinforces the point that you can succeed with a dual-wield build by just backstabbing almost everything and never using the left-hand weapon for anything and it won't feel much different than a normal build.

A better alternative, if you want to have fun, is to just avoid using backstabs.

>>3926042
You dropped parries out of your point, so I question your honesty.

By magic I meant using sorcery, pyros, miracles, not dagger

And without a shield circling enemies is riskier

>>3926049
>You dropped parries out of your point, so I question your honesty.
Just trying to make the point clearer because you really don't seem to get what I'm saying and are basically arguing past me. I said "every build parries and backstabs the same way," when I should have said "every build that can parry and backstab, parries and backstabs the same way"

There are over 100 unique weapons in the game.
NOT counting catalysts
NOT counting pyro flames
NOT counting talismans
NOT counting bows, crossbows or whips.

Each weapon has different properties. Different animations, different hitboxes, different recovery periods, different stamina costs, different poise and stamina damage, different reflection properties, and so on.

Almost NONE of that matters with backstab and riposte. The timing is all identical, irrespective of the weapon. The knockdown effects are identical. The only real difference is the amount of damage dlivered (and even that is a simpler calculation than usual). The only other notable difference is that the blunt weapons and huge swords do that double-hit animation instead of the standard backstab, which basically only matters when the initial hit is strong enough to kill, so you don't get overkill credit.

>>3925777
The problem is that abusing high poise through heavier armor sets is a strategy that can only be done with reasonable effectiveness in the later portion of the game due to needing very high vitality to even survive. It’s not intuitively communicated to the player that this is even an approach that can work with investment, and most players beginning the game with knight or warrior will doff their armor so they can dodge easier. Dark Souls 1 is a much slower game (in terms of animations) compared to subsequent entries in the series, and most bosses have slow and easily readable attacks that heavily encourage the player to dodge.

>>3926059
>I said "every build parries and backstabs the same way," when I should have said "every build that can parry and backstab, parries and backstabs the same way"
Yes, you should have made better arguments in the first place
>Always felt kind of lame to me that this game with such a rich variety of weapons with different hitboxes and movesets all just become irrelevant.
*when backstabbing

>>3925927
>>also Vancian magic is a blight on gaming.
>You deserve to be called a smoothbrain for that comment, though.
Vancian magic was created so that magic could be powerful, while still not being too overpowered in a tabletop roleplaying setting. It feeling good is wholly dependent on whether the player has a good DM who can modulate encounters in real time to fit what the party has available, and potentially even engineer scenarios where all spells are useful. Watching your wizard prepare five sleep spells, then throwing only enemies who are immune to sleep is a common example.
There's also the aspect that damage is the most important thing to a fight, and vancian magic means that if you want to have more utility, that necessarily means you have less damage output.

I think the magic meter was the perfect solution for an era where computers can calculate and remember numbers far better than a guy at a table with a Mtn Dew stained character sheet and a blunt pencil.
If you find the need for a utility spell, then it's an easy choice to sacrifice some of your potential damage output for something more situational.
I always thought that the fantasy for a Wizard is being the intelligent one in the group, always prepared with the perfect tool for what you need, and being so smart that you can bend reality to your will through study and practice.
What happens most of the time is that you don't want to take a spell that you don't know you'll need, so you just take your old reliables, typically damage spells.

This isn't entirely about Dark Souls, but it's not too far off. When's the last time you used Hide, or Cast Light aside from just not having enough casts of the blue "pew-pews" to fill out all of your attunement slots. I use spells like that very regularly in Elden Ring though.

>>3925282
Yeah
DS2, your early levels matter so much. You'll put points into stats you don't want long term, because they really do matter a lot now, and then pushing hard scaling almost always matters less than opening up your options. I think DS2 has the best stats/leveling in the series.
Elden Ring, the weird scaling most stats have, where 1-20 does almost nothing, 20-40 is all of your scaling, 40-60 is only once you're later, and above 60 is pointless unless you're using one of the two weapons in the game with weird scaling that come online only in NG+, is bizarre, amd couples with the fact that like 80% of Elden Ring playthroughs start with a 2 hour shit run to go get your stuff, makes the game feel really stilted in a weird way. Elden Ring feels like you aren't even really playing the game for like, 3 hours on a fresh file, because you're shopping for a build first.

Both also have the issue of your level tax, but 2, your level tax can be paid a few ways, either Adp or Att for better rolls, more health or more armor for more survivability, or more options to handle different scenarios better, while Elden Ring just says "fuck you, put 50 points in Vigor or fuck off".
I like all these games, but, leveling in DS2 is great. Leveling in Elden Ring sucks.
Bloodborne is probably worse in that regard, but Bloodborne is honestly barely an rpg so it might bot even be an appropriate comparison.

>>3926485
Eeeeeh.
Vancian magic makes spells more interesting.
Blue bar leads to situations like Dark Souls 3, where Dark Orb and Chaos Bed Vestiges are effectively the only pyromancies. Maybe the rock if you're trying to make Pyro work against Midir. You just aren't using your bar to cast anything else. You look at the variety of magic missiles, look for the one with the best ratio of juice to damage that doesn't have ass behaviors, and cast that one.
Versus, if CBV is a slotted spell with two casts, it can be good, but not completely dominate casting. It means slots beyond 3 actually matter. A lot, actually.
Slots mean less good spells are actually going to be experimented with sometimes. You want more niche use case spells, and will use some of your less desirable spells, because you have 6 slots, 3 good spells, and the rest are still there.
Elden Ring has, what, like 120ish spells? Not counting weapon arts that are basically spells, actual spells, cast through a talisman or staff.
Of those, how many have you actually used? Casting it once or twice at some test subject to see what it does or test the damage against another doesn't count, I mean, picked it from the list, and put it on your character, with an intent to use it, and used it. Is it under 40? Is it under 20?
How many spells completely replace another; the moment you get this one you never ever cast the other one again? Do you even bother getting all the memory stones, or do you get the like, 3, or maybe 5 if you're casting multi-slot spells, and just forget about the rest?
That's the problem with blue bar. It makes magic selection way, way more linear. There are nowhere near as many lateral decisions to make, about what to put in your 5th, 6th, 7th slot. You WILL be using these spells, but you already have your "good" spells slotted. So, what do you need, what do you want? What actually goes into your 7th spell slot? Do you really want seven slots of magic missiles?

>>3930817
Exactly. In practice, on average, the per-cast opportunity costs are more interesting in a vancian system. The emphasis on preparation does have pros and cons (eg you may not bother to memorize a utility spell if your slots are constrained), but the problem with the mana system is that there are effectively no constraints at all except in scenarios where a low-mana condition is likely to occur. Before that, all you really have is a vague incentive to conserve mana, just in case.
>What happens most of the time is that you don't want to take a spell that you don't know you'll need, so you just take your old reliables, typically damage spells.
This is an issue, but in Vancian Dark Souls this is limited by the "spell" items themselves (I don't know the term for them). That is, unlike D&D where once you have "learned" a spell from a scroll, you can memorize it as many times as you have slots for that spell level, in Dark Souls you can only attune as many copies of a given spell as you have acquired. So if you have looted only Fireball, you can only attune one slot's worth of Fireball charges. This forces you to find something else for your other attunement slots.

>>3926485
>Vancian magic was created so that magic could be powerful, while still not being too overpowered in a tabletop roleplaying setting.
You're intentionally skipping over far too much historical context surrounding "game design" (such as it was) in those days, as well as the actual comments by Gygax et al. about their decisions which have been exhaustively documented over the decades.
And the things you're intentionally ignoring and evading addressing say everything about your motives and about you as a person.
Stop trying to manipulate conversations with lies and misinformation and falsehoods. Fucking stop it.

>>3930817
I don't know about you, but I was always changing around my spell loadout to get the best bang for my blue-bar.
In Elden Ring at least, it takes after Dark Souls 2 where spells are more linear in how the more damaging ones take longer to cast than the lower ones. So you can get off a lot more attack opportunities with Glintstone Pebble. The lower cost spells also have a far better ratio of damage to FP cost. It's a decision of how much you trust yourself to not need all those Red Flasks, or how quickly you can end the fight before you need them.

>>3930995
ok first. calm down.
second, I gave my best guess in a good faith way for why D&D chose to implement it's magic system like that based on what I know about the appeal of magic users for the general population. I think in a tabletop setting, it works beautifully, but once you remove the human element of the other players with their own motivations and strategies, it kinda falls apart.
and third, this is a discussion on video games, and more specifically Dark Souls. I just want to make my case for why a blue bar makes more sense for a computer game than a set amount of casts.

Has anyone else enjoyed selecting a class and sticking with the starter equipment, or at least close to it? I'm playing a hunter and it has rekindled my love for the game. Focusing on archery gives a new perspective (literally, first person aiming).

It's so easy to get immersed and slip into roleplaying in dark souls, I love it.

>>3930995
>intentionally
I doubt it. Comes across more as just a standard gamer who doesn't think beyond his personal experience

>>3926485
>This isn't entirely about Dark Souls, but it's not too far off. When's the last time you used Hide, or Cast Light aside from just not having enough casts of the blue "pew-pews"
Both are good for a thief and require little investment. Keeps hands free in tomb of the giants.

The question is did Dark Souls have enough consideration for lighting and stealth? Not really. Stealth opportunities mostly happen when backtracking through linearly designed levels and encounters. Some odd exceptions, like getting a drop on a black knight or something.

Because they're told it's good because it's bad, the whole dark souls dilemma especially with the quality of the game itself, the shittiness is just treated like difficulty and that you should get good this game could be literally shit but there's such a culture around it people just assume it's good. The entire enjoyment and fanbase of dark souls is a meme.

The painting level is gorgeous, but damn is it a difficulty spike. Meant for endgame I suppose.

>>3931391
Also its design is a lot less focused at a basic level.
The painted world is less a "zone" and more "here are a bunch of things we wanted to include but didn't have a place to do it", it's more like a devroom than a properly designed level, so the inconsistent difficulty is a byproduct of that, I feel.

>>3933550
The difficulty was fine with upgraded weapons, doing it after O&S.

IIRC it was the first level they designed for the game. Cool area.

>>3933579
I know it's the first location by file IDs
Whether that means it's actually the first they worked on, or just got put in the spot of a test area or something, is unclear.

>>3933616
I checked the interview in the Design Works book, and looked it up online so I could just copy & paste it here, and I notice the book interview and the online source are different.. maybe the wiki pages have a different translation?

Here's the interview straight from the book:
>MIYAZAKI: We produced quite a few designs drafts for the Painted World. To tell the truth, the Painted World was based on a prototype "Dark souls" map, and the prototype map was designed in great detail in order to ensure we were all on the same page. I wanted to include it in the actual game because we had put so much work into it, but the problem was it just didn't seem to link up with the other areas in terms of visual style. That's why we decided to pull out the notion of a "painted world" where we could pretty much get away with anything.
>WARAGAI: Not to mention the snow.
>MIYAZAKI: Exactly... Wait, this makes us sound like a bunch of lazy developers! (laughs) I can tell you that we had a separate concept for the Painted World, but it just happened to match up with the prototype map really well.
It goes on for a bit more, but I'm too lazy to type it all out.

So I recalled somewhat incorrectly. Seems to be a prototype map repurposed into the level we see in the game.

>>3933550
>The painted world is less a "zone" and more "here are a bunch of things we wanted to include but didn't have a place to do it", it's more like a devroom than a properly designed level, so the inconsistent difficulty is a byproduct of that, I feel.
Not sure where you're getting all this but Painted World has a very cohesive design. It's just a lot denser than the rest of the game except maybe catacombs.
The only inconsistency is that the zone itself doesn't really fit into the game world they ultimately designed, so it was put in the painting.

>>3933645
I always thought it was essentially a port over of the Demons level that didn't make it to production.

>>3931298
Demon's Souls fans are gone, it was 17 years ago.
Dark Souls 1 fans swear its a "flawed masterpiece" and excuse any criticism with retarded fanfiction or the shrieking of "git gud".
Dark Souls 2 fans fight for their lives trying to convince others their criticism doesn't hold water.
Dark Souls 3 fans shit on Dark Souls 2 to prop up their game.
Bloodborne is the same as Dark Souls 1, but now link hour long YT videos instead of trying to talk for themselves.
Elden Ring fans are a combination of 1, 3, and BB.

I hate how much I enjoy these games, but I'm stricken with such a retarded fucking fanbase.

>>3933760
NTA, but it does kind of have a complete mismash of various enemies with seemingly no cohesion. Skelewheels, wretched with strange growths, blobs with spears, armored knights and birdmen, with a dragon lady as a boss.
I guess you can argue that all the different gods agreed to seal Priscilla away and that's why there's enemies from all over the place but that's headcanon and it comes across more like them just putting in random enemies from other sections and a few they didn't have anywhere else to put.

>>3933806
What would you expect to find?
Ancient ruin, harpies nesting in the rafters, the rest of the place crawling with Undead, including an ancient undead dragon.
The knights guard the bridge to Priscilla.
Priscilla's location is a little weird from a practical perspective, but that's about it. It still makes sense as the boss arena in the level's design (and the snow works with her invisibility gimmick).

>>3933806
>Skelewheels, wretched with strange growths, blobs with spears, armored knights and birdmen
And the occult stuff from Velka. King Jeremiah. Priscilla is the only odd one out, but it's a place for exiles after all.

Berserk's Conviction arc also comes to mind lol.

>>3925780
>The thing is, most people who "play" Dark Souls do so with a walkthrough and build guide open the entire time
Bullshit
Why would anyone do this? That's retarded. They'd remove all sense of personal accomplishment and exploration/discovery and reduce the game to following a shopping list. Why the fuck would you buy a game known for being challenging just to remove all the challenge? That's stupid. Nobody does this.

>>3923521
>>second half is rushed garbage with shitty gimmick bosses
only Lost Izalith is straight up unfinished, even then, I enjoyed going deeper and deeper down the world, it has great atmosphere

>>3931298
>>3933801
All of the souls games have serious design and mechanical flaws that are ignored by fans because the games are quite fun. It’s similar to eating at McDonald’s where the rude inefficient staff and terrible ingredient quality is ignored because of how the food tastes and what the packaging looks like. From an objective standpoint the experience is lacking in key components, but it provides a strong enough dopamine hit to put up with and ignore the unpleasantness caused by the faults.

>>3925515
The dodge roll in DS isn't bad mechanically. It's unwieldy because it isn't omni-directional. If you understand this, you understand the power of it and can utilize it effectively.

>>3925515
>Dark Souls was a bit different by making dodging sometimes a really bad move, either because it moves you away from the enemy, leaves you open to a followup if you do it wrong, leads you to roll off a ledge, or just takes too long.
As opposed to other games, perhaps.
But where a dodge roll MAY lead to damage if you do it wrong, a parry ALWAYS leads to damage if you do it wrong.

>>3934410
>All of the souls games have serious design and mechanical flaws that are ignored by fans because the games are quite fun
It's almost like things that retards think are flaws are either
1. Completely irrelevant to the experience (Anor Londo titanite demon clipping through the wall)
or
2. Not even properly classified as flaws at all. (eg cardinal rolling)
Truth is I like discussing flaws of games that I love. Dark Souls included. And it does have flaws that don't fit into those two categories. But anyone who comes in making broad generalizations about elements being "bad mechanically" are just morons with no meaningful criticism.

>>3934557
The delusional cope. Bows are a mechanically worthless weapon category, fist weapons are genuinely worthless, twinking with lightning infusion is so insanely broken that it’s insane it was even included in the game, a fourth of the armor sets are so heavy that it’ll force you to slow walk or near slow walk even with hard caped endurance + fap ring and havel’s ring, covenants go up to 3 ranks that reward nothing at the final, and the player starts with an absurd amount of estus flasks from right off the bat. The game is a mechanical shitshow.

>>3934557
Is it criticism or a cry for attention? Shitting on a popular game is good for replies when you need them the most.

>>3934557
What are your flaws?

>>3933801
Eeeh
Bloodborne is the Earthbound of souls games.
Everyone said it was the best, the most underrated masterpiece of all time, and so on, then an actually accessible way to play it dropped, and the conversation prettt much went silent.
It was never that big a deal, just the people who had played it making unsubstantiated claims at people that hadn't. Then getting embarrassed once people got to play it, and realizing it's okay. It's not that amazing, it's not underrated, it's a decent experience that doesn't overachieve, then clocks out at 5pm sharp.

Bloodborne was a bit impressive for the time, when its direct comparison was the sluggish Demon's, DS1, and DS2, but while each of those has something notable worth coming back for, Bloodborne really is just stripped down DS3/Elden Ring. It has easily aged the worst out of all of the Souls games. The level design outside Yarhnam and the church ward is meh, the bosses are some of the worst on average in the series, the trick weapons system utterly falls apart when almost every weapon has a "correct" form you use 99% of the time (no, using the trick attack on the Saif, then immediately switching back, or charging the Boomhammer doesn't count).
It's still a fine experience, just, you play it and then you're done with it. And if you come from DS3 or Elden Ring, you're just playing those but worse. Orphan of Kos being first or second tried by people coming from those games isn't even rare.

>>3934606
Holy shit it's legitimately impressive how you managed to cram so many retarded claims into a single post.
If you think bows are "mechanically worthless" it means you've either never tried using them or are just shit and bad at videogames.
Fist weapons aren't useless. Caestus weighs almost nothing, requires no stats to use, deals striking damage, and as a perk suffers no rebound effect. If you don't see the value there, it means you don't understand the game nearly well enough to criticize it.
>a fourth of the armor sets are so heavy
Given that you didn't see the value in the Caestus, you're probably including some faggot midweight weapon like a Katana that's pushing you over the cap, and just not counting it because you're too retarded to have a computer do basic arithmetic for you.
>the player starts with an absurd amount of estus flasks from right off the bat.
The amount of Estus is perfectly fair, especially since at the time Dark Souls was released, the target audience for the game wasn't sweaty tryhards.

>>3934715
Not really "flaws" but questionable design choices or things that could have been better
Backstab
Overwhelming majority of enemies are static placements, very few patrol or move on their own in any way.
Much of Lost Izalith is a misfire. The lava section is just boring and annoying, the dragon statue section is tedious.
The max of 20 estus flasks is a bit much.

I'm sure there are legit flaws I haven't thought of and would be interested to see raised. But not clueless stupidity like "fists are useless"

>>3935918
There's flaws, but I'm tired of the discussion being centered around negatives,and I don't want to see my points being brought up in the next bait thread I see.

I've been using Astora Straight Sword throughout my playthrough, the weapon fans online like to call shit,and it's been quite good actually. Just cleared New Londo with it. Makes me think of how neurotic all the minmax talk is.

>>3935918
This post is peak example as to how delusional souls fans are completely averse to recognizing the tangible flaws present in the games. The response is to downplay criticism and pretend that objectively shitty underbaked and poorly implemented mechanics are somehow good and that nothing needs to be improved simply because the game can be fun. There’s no admission of the flaws nor refutation, just anger and seethe at having to listen to the sacred cow be tipped over. Absolutely pathetic.

File: file.png (971.8 KB)

971.8 KB PNG

>>3923521
If you were going to make an isometric crpg trying to capture the feel and stamina management mechanics of Dark Souls would it work better as RTwP or Turn Based? I think I'm leaning towards RTwP, ala DA:O.

What would the possible companions be like?
Going by reoccurring character archetypes I guess they'd probably be;
>Friendly Knight
>Sinister Knight
>Lady Knight
>Sad Priestess
>'Friendly' Bandit
>Friendly Bandit
>Jovially Creepy Priest
>Motherly Witch
>Magical Femboy
>Old Mage
>Friendly Pyromancer

>>3934334
Sweet Summer child

Pros and cons of the various versions of DS1 on PC for someone who's never played any of them?

>>3925827
>also Vancian magic is a blight on gaming.
Whatever faggot, its better and more immersive than disrupting your gameplay by taking a sip from a mana flask.

I think my favorite way to play is a "realistic" knight with minimal STR and DEX, so only the only weapons available are the mundane weapons, and anything bigger like the bastard sword needs to be wielded with two hands. Then just raise VIT and END and it's just a comfortable way to play.

>>3936635
I've only played Prepare to Die on PC, and it needed to be fixed with graphics and connectivity mods. Remastered should have more people online.

>>3936445
There is refutation. More than the dumb criticism even deserved, and you have no answer to it at all. You just retreated into vague grandstatnding and no substance whatsoever.

DS1 fans win.
You lose. Conclusively.

>centipede demon gets stuck on terrain
>safely kill it with a crossbow
Lucky, the camera on that fight sucks so bad

>>3936635
Some people don't like some of the graphical changes in the Remastered version but other than that the remaster is probably the better way to play.
There are a couple of balances changes in the Remastered though iirc. They nerfed the Eagle shield and added an extra bonfire warp.
And as the other anon said, there's a lot more people doing online play in the remaster so if you want to do PvP or co-op that version is better.

>>3936635
Remastered works better, Prepare to Die looks better (in most places)
They redid the lighting and some textures for Remastered, mostly to the net negative of the overall vibes. (For an example of what's probably the most infamous, Bonfires in Remastered look like, well, bonfires, while they look distinctly... not like fire, and like something eerie, organic, and inexplicable in base DS1/Prepare to Die.)
But, Remastered has some performance improvements. Personally I value the performance more than the visuals, but, you may disagree.
Mechanically, there's almost no differences. A couple numbers swapped you probably won't ever notice unless they were side by side, and one extra bonfire in a spot that's very convenient for late game weapon tuning, but potentially disastrous to new players if they get stuck in a place that's really hard to get out of.
As a footnote, if it matters as a tiebreaker perhaps, Remastered has a much more robust modding scene, along with some pretty simple tools. I myself made a small, amateur rebalance that made everything's damage resistances and weaknesses much more dramatic, and I can barely install Skyrim mods correctly.

>>3937440
>Remastered has a much more robust modding scene, along with some pretty simple tools
Awesome, I didn't know that. I need to give it a look, see what can be done.

>>3937446
One to keep an eye out for, I believe it's called the starting class editor.
On paper, that's what it's for, but the tool is basically keys to editing the params however you like, and even comes with both tutorials on how to do it, and links to IDs for pretty much everything in the game. There's some limits on it, but anything in the realm of number changing, applying effects, changing merchants or drop tables, ect are all there. Applying ring or spell effects to pieces of armor is even on the table.
Make frequent backups!

>>3937481
That could be used for something cool. I did a quick check and there's also some kind of map editor. I'll have to look more into it some other time.

>>3935918
The stuttering, poor performance at times most notably in Blighttown, Covenants barely functioning, "platforming", Rite of Kindling giving you a whole 20 estus flask which almost completely breaks the game, awful netcode, bad menus, weapon upgrade system, omni-directiona rolling? And thats not talking about the clear drop in quality come the second half of the game and combined with bonfire warping.

>>3937604
>whole 20 estus flask which almost completely breaks the game
Lol wtf do you mean "breaks"

>>3937613
break is an odd word to use
game is balanced around 5 or 10 estus to the amount of damage enemies deal to how far the bonfires are from each other. you get 20 and you can outheal whatever the game throws at you.

>>3937604
Mix of reasonable and tard critiques here.
>menus
Yeah, not great. Also it's not a real RPG so it's not a menu simulator. Menu issues aren't huge. They could be improved but that's also the kind of thing a B-team would care about and improve.
>covenants
DkS was a PvE single-player game by default, covenants were a neat idea and reasonably well-implemented as bonus features go.
>omnirolling
Tard critique. Reflects no understanding of game design whatsoever, cannot distinguish preference from flaws.
>muh second half
This one is a mindless parrot critique.
Quality is fine for most areas. A few legit issues but certainly not the whole thing.
>bonfire warping
Most decently-designed single-world games give fast-travel options as the explored area gets larger. Whining about bonfire warping is another tard critique.

>>3937604
Also, stuttering issues were an undeniable legit critique... in 2012 when people were playing it mostly on PS3 and XBox360. They haven't been a real problem for years.

>>3937614
>game is balanced around 5 or 10 estus
For what stats, equipment, spells, estus upgrades, player skill level, and time spent exploring the level and defeating enemies do you suppose?

Do heal miracles break the game..

"Carefully designed balanced estus" sound nice, though it goes out the window when I skip enemies on my way to boss. Perhaps this too was by design.

Youtubers have masturbated too much to Dark Souls

>you can outheal whatever the game throws at you.
The game can deal damage infinitely, and depending on factors you might not survive long enough to sip.

>>3937615
>>3937618
Quit trying to downplay actual problems. Even when you admit it's an issue, you still try to downplay it. You're doing exactly what anon said so before. There's nothing wrong with admitting your favourite games have problems. I love Dragon's Dogma, but it absolutely has a problem with Pawns inclinations, repetition of enemies, absurd imbalance amongst vocations, and the imbalance amongst augments to name a few.

>>3937625
Good point. You know what, Estus shouldn't even be limited at all. It should scale to 99, much like Grass did in Demon's Souls. Ah, and we should definitely bring back Lifegems as well.

>>3937627
If you like 5 estus, don't kindle.

>>3937630
>just dont use it bro
It directly affects how one plays the game when they are given an item to outright remove or mitigate a mechanic. Being able to kindle so high is a problem, it is a legitimate piece of criticism. The boss was an obstacle, the player skipped the obstacle but not engage with it, the purpose of the boss was lost and served no purpose.

>>3937632
Nonsense, get your head straight
>the player skipped the obstacle but not engage with it
And good morning sir

File: 1729409933836410.jpg (25.5 KB)

25.5 KB JPG

>>3937633
I missed one singular word, sweetie. Either way, Thank you for your concession.

>>3937627
>Quit trying to downplay actual problems.
Not until you quit overblowing problems and pretending complete non-problems are actually problems (eg cardinal rolling).
>There's nothing wrong with admitting your favourite games have problem
This is true. But it's also true that none of your critiques of Dark Souls are good ones. They're all lame ones. You haven't managed to bring up even one serious problem with the game. I could write paragraphs explaining why I think the backstab is badly designed but all you can do is whine and cry that shitters are allowed more Estus than you personally think they should be allowed to have.
> You know what, Estus shouldn't even be limited at all. It should scale to 99
Case in point. Mental issues.
It's just not a big deal.
If you're on your first playthrough getting your ass kicked by O&S, the difference between 20 will 99 matter a lot.
Retards aren't capable of thinking outside their own feelings and personal experience.
>>3937632
>The boss was an obstacle, the player skipped the obstacle but not engage with it, the purpose of the boss was lost and served no purpose.
Estus alone doesn't let you skip any bosses. Absolute worst case scenario, the combination of estus and poise will allow a fairly easy and arguable cheesy strat, but this requires a dedicated build and is an edge case not really worth nerfing.

File: 1766744807392970.jpg (73.1 KB)

73.1 KB JPG

>>3937967
"Lame" isn’t an argument. A critique is valid if it points to a system, the rule it uses, and the effect on the players learning or fairness. Performance drops, like in Blighttown, unstable netcode, and poorly implemented upgrade paths are actual problems, not just your preferences. You are, once again, downplaying the issues. I said before that PvP has issues, with covenants and netcode, and you brush it off by claiming it's "primarily a PvE game". That is entirely irrelevant, as PvP is still a part of the game. We have to deal with all that it brings, it doesn't matter if you don't personally do PvP or Coop.

And just becuase PvP being "optional" doesn’t mean its systems are exempt from evaluation. Invasions, covenants, matchmaking rules, and balance patches are implemented mechanics in Dark Souls. Calling them ‘bonus features’ doesn’t address whether they function well. And your "backstab" problem is never more relevant than in PvP.

>complete non-problems
>all lame ones.
>no serious problem
>It's just not a big deal.
Literally all perfect examples of downplaying.
You said you could write paragraphs on why backstabs are badly designed, so please do. Name the rule, describe how it behaves, and explain the effect on players.

>>3937979
Time to remind your disingenuous ass ehe argument started with this quote:
>>3934557
>All of the souls games have serious design and mechanical flaws that are ignored by fans
>serious design and mechanical flaws
>serious
In other words, "downplaying the flaws" is a valid counter-argument. Properly contextualizing the severity of the criticism is required when the standard for criticism is: SERIOUS.
- Issues with covenants aren't SERIOUS.
- Rite of Kindling isn't SERIOUS.
- Issues with netcode aren't SERIOUS.
- The relative imbalance of Lightning and Chaos weapons aren't SERIOUS.
>Performance drops, like in Blighttown
Kek moving those goalposts. So now it's """performance drops""", no matter how imperceptible they are on modern hardware?
NOT SERIOUS.

And this is all AFTER we have filtered out all the various attempts at criticism that fell obviously into categories of "objectively not a flaw" or "not even a true statement" like that retard claiming bows are mechanically worthless.

>>3937990
Severity isn’t determined by whether you personally tolerate a system. It’s determined by impact on player learning, reliability, and intended challenge. A flaw is serious if it measurably changes how players must play to succeed, or if it undermines consistency the game depends on.

By that standard, Performance instability that alters timing in a precision combat game is serious because it changes outcomes independent of player skill.
Netcode issues in a game that includes synchronous PvP are serious because they reduce reliability of core mechanics like hit detection and positioning.
Resource scaling that shifts play from risk management to attrition changes the intended learning loop.

If you disagree, define your metric for “serious” in mechanical terms, and not personal tolerance. Name the rule, describe how it behaves, and explain the player impact. You said you could explain why backstabs are badly designed. That would be an actual design discussion. Do that.

>>3937994
>Resource scaling that shifts play from risk management to attrition changes the intended learning loop
Nta
If you're talking about estus, you are forgetting about how kindling consumes a resource, a resource that also works as healing and other purposes.

>>3937996
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean?
But yeah, Humanity iisn't that uncommon to come across and quite easy to farm, and you also only have to kindle it a bonfire once for the permanent fix. Then when we add on the bonfire warping, the player can "always" have that extra amount. The Rite of Kindling ends up the saas Lifegems from DS2. Humanity is really powerful by itself, as it gives uninterruptable poise, a full heal no matter what, and also will continue to heal even after getting hit as long as it isn't "finished". Especially in PvP, humanity was everywhere and it wasn't uncommon to find players with 99. That also leads into why I don't much care for the second half of the game.