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>>2318765
Dwarves are objectively the only good guys in the setting.

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>>2318765
Ugh... fuck them, yeah.

>>2318765
>Fuck dwarfs
Posts a frost giant.

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>>2318859
>confuses a son of Ymir with an ice giant

>>2318772
they're reason why undead hordes exists, and Wotan is part of the reason why legions of the damned exists. fuck them.
also, slow as fuck.

>>2318901
>Wotan is part of the reason why legions of the damned
Wotan has nothing to do with the legions at all.

>also, slow as fuck.
Dwarves are the fastest when it matters with forestwalking & seafaring + movement restoration.

>>2318901
Angels sabotaged world created by Bethrezen before he could show it off to Highfather. and it was established that Angels were meant to be Gods of other races such as Solionelle, Gallean and Wotan. Not to mention Wotan's murder of Gallean turned Solionelle into Mortis.

>>2318859
Part of the dwarf faction anyway.

>>2318927
>it was established that Angels were meant to be Gods of other races such as Solionelle, Gallean and Wotan
No, they are not.

>>2318929
IIRC flavor text for Sons of Ymir say they are descendants of greatest dwarf warrior that ever lived. that would imply that giants are related to dwarves/subspecies of dwarves.

>>2318937
also Mountain clans would imply that some clans are made of dwarves, other clans are made out of giants and halflings

>>2318901
Knife-ear cope

>>2318937
How dod they grow so big?

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>>2318937
>descendants of greatest dwarf warrior that ever lived
I interpret "dwarven" as fightning for the dwarves, not literally dwarves. Ymir is a primordial giant whose body was used to create the world and people living in it.

>>2318938
>halflings
There are no halflings. Clans magi are dwarf women.

>>2318905
>forestwalking & seafaring + movement restoration
This. Only thing they lack is a flying land grabber hero.

>>2318978
You can't get everything. But they got the best level 1 & 3 summons. Both flying, and the valkyrie can hit basically everyone, while the nightmare is useless against the undead.

>>2318981
>You can't get everything.
Unless you're a hordefag I suppose. But yeah, dorfs are strong af.

>>2318994
>Unless you're a hordefag
But they got shittiest spells in the game.

>>2319006
They got some nice nukes and debuffs but it's their units that are usually disgusting. Vampires, immunities, paralyze...

>>2319013
>nukes and debuffs
Every race got nukes. Evil races just get x2 amount of them but it's pointless if the mage lord can simply learn a spell once and cast it twice a turn. At least the demons got invisibility and movement depletion.

Also, negative spells can't be used against garrisons and ruins.

>Vampires, immunities, paralyze...
*hermits in your path*

>>2319026
>mage lord
Precisely. This way you can go emo with vampkid lord and still have around mage tier nukes per turn. Rust is also really nice to have.

>>2319030
>Rust
Legions have tormentio too.

>>2319034
True.

Nosferat seems useless in battle, am I missing something?

>>2319125
Levels on him.

>>2319125
he seems useless at first but around level 7 or 8, with all artifacts you acquire during campaign, you have "Mage" type leader that's as fast as warrior/archer and can self heal on top of that. you can put in front row and hell tank for you, while dishing out absurd 6 slot damage.

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>>2319125
Nosferatu is the strongest hero in the game, akchually. Level 3+ onwards with careful positioning you can actually start putting him in the front to help your melee tank. He sucks against heavy single monsters but is absolutely brutal against parties of 3 or more units since 50% of all damage he does, he gets back as HP.

>>2319146
This is correct, the only Achilles heel of Nosferat is that he deals Death elemental damage and a lot of neutral undead creatures, even low levels ones, are immune to Death attacks.

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Why is Trump in this game?

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>>2319322
>making such a forced low effort joke when a literal tranny demon lord exists

>>2319026
they have summons for almost every level. you can say the same about the elves but the skelly is actually a good thief killer, meanwhile the minor trent is semi-useless.

>>2318772
No. Not only did the dwarfs attack the elves for absolutely no reason when the knife-ears came to them seeking refuge.
Then this caused Gallean to call out Wotan on this and demanded that he does something about it.
Wotan kills Gallean and throws his body into the sun with the latter's wife Solionelle managing to only save her husband's heart at the cost of turning into a skeleton creature that is now Mortis.

Needless to say her wrath on the dwarfs was very swift and very brutal with three clans being utterly annihilated and the Mountain Clans were decimated in general. Both in numbers (especially the three clans that were annihilated) and economically.

Moral of the story? Don't kill another god's worshipers who ask you for help, nor kill a god if that one demands justice for innocent blood being spilled.

>>2319431
All those low level summons are there to weaken neutral mobs. They end up doing more damage than damage spells against stuff like single Ogres and Dragons.

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>>2319839
Fuck right off. There's a reason why Bethrezen targeted knife-ears first and not the humans he created and that betrayed him not once but three goddamn, literally, times. And them "seeking refuge" involved invading dwarves that were minding their own business and fighting off demons on their own and then after getting their shit pushed in, invading AGAIN. And after they got their shit pushed in by defending manlets for the second time and losing their head honcho, his main bottom bitch decides to indulge in necrophilia and create the undead horde. As one does. And what do they do after reuniting in their expansion? Yup, invade third parties some more.

They're THE villains of the story and coping from your part will not change that.

>>2319871
No. It was the Angels who are responsible for all of this.
Also elves are under Gally and Soli.

>>2319873
Play the first game.

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Why does the King's Hall cost 1000 gold more than the Ancestor's Shrine if it gives you the worse unit?

>>2318765
Apparently every developer past Disciples II agreed with you... :(

>>2318765
is there any reason to train your hero in this game? also is there any guide to skills?

>>2327484
In the campaign you transition the hero and you need to export him to play the other campaign.
You don't need a guide, it's not complex, you figure out by playing.

>>2327484
In Disciples 1 you want
>Banners or (with mage hero or Nosferatu) Artifacts instead
>Leadership
>Pathfinding
>Leadership
>Weapon Master
>Might
>Toughness
in this order.

In Disciples 2 heroes already start with a different skill and you have separate equipment slots for all types of items. You will want
>Max Leadership
>Banners
>Artifacts
>Shoes
>Both Pathfinding skills
>First Strike (only for mage heroes)
>Might
>Toughness
at some point however. After this the remaining skills are not important. I usually take the Wards afterwards.

>>2327487
>>2327546
i know that i can export hero in campaign it's just that i have a feeling that i am missing something when i level up in singleplayer

>>2327546
>no arcane power

if you pick the 2nd leadership bonus before weapon master... then i pity your foolishness.

>>2327603
>>is there any reason to train your hero in this game?
Yes of course, in the single player campaign the maps will obviously become harder and harder as you progress and having a high level hero is how you beat it (duh), the game expects you to have a high level fully geared hero by the end.

>>also is there any guide to skills?
Most skills are pretty straightforward and tell you what they do, you can judge their usefulness based on the hero/faction you play. For example flying heroes do not need Forest walking because they ignore terrain by default but they can still use boots because some boots dramatically increase movement.

As the other anon wrote Leadership is one of the arguably only first pick skills until maxed because that allows you to take more troops with you but Weapon master is also a key pick.

>>i know that i can export hero in campaign it's just that i have a feeling that i am missing something when i level up in singleplayer
You need to elaborate on this, we cannot tell you what you do not know, if we do not know what you do know.

>>2327484
Do not pick the skills that allow you to use scrolls and staves you can always just hire a level 1 mage hero and they know all of that by default. Just drop all scrolls and staves at your capital then park that level 1 Mage hero in your capital and they can use the scrolls and staffs whenever you need it. You will need more heroes for troop exchanging anyways.

>>2327939
>For example flying heroes do not need Forest walking
i remember begin confused by this (playing undead) because when the hero is dead his skills don't apply right? i think i was picking the forest walk in case he was dead and i needed to move back to base lmao
>we cannot tell you what you do not know, if we do not know what you do know
i think the feeling of missing was from general level cap in the campaing like i was 'missing' by not gaining more exp
also can i somehow import higher level heroes into campaing?

>>2327953
>when the hero is dead his skills don't apply right?
Correct any stack with a dead hero and thus "no leader" will use a base movement of a unit with no leader which is very slow.

>i think the feeling of missing was from general level cap in the campaing like i was 'missing' by not gaining more exp
In the story campaign there is an XP cap every map so that you cannot farm XP and get way ahead of the story's difficulty curve but as you progress the story the level cap gets higher and higher every map, this is normal.

>also can i somehow import higher level heroes into campaign?
In the main story campaigns no you cannot. Other scenarios do allow you import heroes, heck I remember one I think starts out by assuming you have a max level hero.

Is there a trick to taking the capitals or do you just have to be high level?

>>2327963
The Capitol guardians are not immune against status effects. Use potions to buff your armor to survive the first hit, up the hit-rate of your paralyzer to 100% and buff everyone elses damage as you automatically start to flee if the battle takes too long.

>>2327961
>heck I remember one I think starts out by assuming you have a max level hero.
well i did have lvl 52 hero, what's the lel cap ? 99?

>>2327963
As the other Anon said you can try to blow all consumables like scrolls, potions etc. before the charge and cast every spell to buff your party. The guardian will almost always go first so you have to survive the first hit. After that it is an endurance battle. The capital Guardians have all identical stats for every faction so you can see their statblock from simply looking at your own capital guardian.

>>2327963
you can literally 1v1 the guardian
if the hero has AoE probably solo whole defense force
also any mods for this game?

>>2327968
What spells would i use? Im pretty sure most spells don't work on settlements and if i summon someome they just get killed and it gives the units xp and levels them up.

>>2327993
It depends on your faction, Hordes and Legions do not have spells that buff units so they are out of luck there, Empire and Clans have access to some buff spells. But you should use any and all that gives you some edge.

>if i summon someome they just get killed and it gives the units xp and levels them up.
You are correct, so don't do that.

>>2327993
empire is the best at this since armor is the most important thing to defeat a guardian, and if you manage to buff yourself with enough armor your healer will do the rest, even better if you poison him with the assasin. the golem is also great to crush smaller troops, just give him an armor potion first.
you may want to abuse poison city to raise your chances if your race lack armor magic but you'll still need to have enough armor to endure a couple of hits from the guardian.

>>2327963
Keep in mind that in the main story Campaign there are like just or two or so... can't remember exactly, missions that require you to take a Capital of all the factions combined. Usually taking the Capital should not be your priority as the map objectives do not require it, it is more like a bonus.

>>2328155
IIRC, there's only one, and that's the last mission of the Guardians of the Light Saga for Mountain Clans. And even then, the Guardian is significantly nerfed after destroying the Grave Golem parked in front of the Undead Capital.

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>>2328017
Seconding on the Empire. They're an undisputed master at taking out Capitals due to their native healing and armor buffing spells, plus a unit that inflicts DoT which ignores Guardian armor. See picrel for what I personally think is the ideal Empire party comp for any situation.
They are followed closely by Elves and Undead. Both likewise require potion and/or spell buffs to survive the first hit, and then the former can rely on healing (provided your healer or your armor can keep you afloat) and the latter on Paralysis.
Both Legion and the Clans don't have native healing nor a way to stunlock the Guardian, so can only deal with them using a Petrify or Paralysis inflicting artifact and shitty healing talismans or potions if the effect doesn't proc..

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>>2328199
Shit, just as I've typed this, I remembered that the Legion at least has Incubii (Succubis don't count cause their shitty polymorph ability gets dispelled before the Guardian attacks IIRC), so Legions are second worst and Clans at the very bottom of the pile.

this game needs an english modding community
the ruskies need to learn english already or fuck off

dwarves got two armor buffs, add some potion and\or a banner and they can fare good too. they're probably better than elves, which have no armor magic and weak healers.

>>2328220
>филтepeд

Is upscaling a meme? I don't see any difference.

>>2328204
Legions are the best guardian killers. Fiends with 11k exp have a 250 damage poison.

>>2328204
>Clans at the very bottom of the pile.
What a load of crap. All you need for a 1 turn KO is a son of ymir and a couple of buffs on him.

>>2328283
>11k exp
the challenge here is to defeat the guardian faster as possible, i bet most maps dont even have half the exp avaible.

>>2328199
Aren't Grand Inquistors considered the best Empire melee unit? Since they only need 800 exp for each extra level which gives +20 HP and +10 damage each. Also the very useful Fire Ward and Mind Immunity. You can kill demon Uther with them without using any buffs and debuffs.

Well locked Squires (80 exp for levelup) end up with even more health but it takes an eternity for them to get good damage.

>>2328492
This is about how do you define "best." We do not have infinite XP obviously and pooling all XP into one part is generally a waste as it means everywhere on the map where you main party is not present you will be weak and you constantly have to run around back and fourth with your main party retaking cities because freshly recruited level1 units cannot hold them until those cities are upgraded to maximum and it will take forever to win the map that way.

>Well locked Squires (80 exp for levelup) end up with even more health but it takes an eternity for them to get good damage.
One can even make a stupid arguement that frontliners most of the time should not even attack at all (when there is no AOE) because defending basically halves the damage they take and frontline's only job is to protect the backline so attacking is theoretically detrimental to their job because they just die faster if they don't just perma defend and then risk loosing out on getting XP because they died.

The other thing is XP overkill, one can only level up once per combat so if you have a locked squire who needs 80XP to level and your party defeated something big and everyone in the party gained 160XP then the Squire basically just missed out on an entire level since it only needed 80 XP that other leftover 80 went poof.

I'm surprised people pick Empire over undead. When Hordes shit not only on guardians. But also on the game balance as whole.
>>2328199
>Both Legion and the Clans don't have native healing nor a way to stunlock the Guardian
Not really. Clans don't need to stunlock the Guardian in a first place, because Son of Yumir is very FAT unit with DoT. And you have best armor buffs. Legions have abyssal devil or incub. Latter comes with dogshit accuracy tho.

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>>2328492
>Aren't Grand Inquistors considered the best Empire melee unit?
Their Mind Immunity (and Fire Ward to a lesser degree) make them exceptional units when dealing with Legions and Hordes in regular games. However, even if you're not playing Empire using a Mage Lord (which you almost certainly should since their spells are so good), you can still give your party Mind Ward (and occasionally Earth Ward for Petrify) for a turn through a base-level spell. As long as you don't get hit by a those status-inflicting attacks more than once, you are gucci. And you won't be, if you can kill everything that can stunlock you in 1-2 turns.
But the main reason I use Avengers instead of GIs after a certain point is very simple - they attack twice. Every unit has a 300DMG cap (except Warrior Leaders, which should have a 400DMG cap, at least in the expansion). With the Empire, reaching that damage cap through potion and spell buffs is comparatively simple. However, there's no spell that can give you an extra attack in combat. So, in high-level encounters, my Avengers can deal up to 1800DMG to anything standing in front of them in one turn. Only Nebiros (with 2600HP and 30 armor) and the Guardians will be left standing afterwards, and Nebiros is dying in the next turn.

>>2328294
>All you need for a 1 turn KO is a son of ymir and a couple of buffs on him.
Son of Ymir's regular DoT is 30 unstackable damage. If you wanna imply that you can realistically level his DoT attack up to deal at least 750-800 damage, with the final 100-150 damage inflicted through regular attacks of other party members, you're either playing a modded game, or I have hallucinated my last playthroughs of D2 in the past decade.

>>2328547
>Clans don't need to stunlock the Guardian in a first place ... Legions have abyssal devil or incub
I will concede on both to a degree, but they're still inferior when dealing with Guardians to the three other factions. I'm pretty sure we can at least agree on that.

>>2328573
>I'm pretty sure we can at least agree on that
I just remembered that Legion also have Fiend. Which requires not that much investment and can go overlevel quite fast. So no we don't. Elves being better compare to Legion and Clans is bold statement.

>>2328573
Maybe I'm hallucinating this entire conversation and you're simply a shard of my schizoid personality trying to reassert itself. How about that lol? No, but seriously, if it's a skirmish guardian without all the campaign buffs and you've got roided urist and a couple of alchemists you can apply frostbite more than once per turn. Between that and your already high armor buffed into astronomical levels, what's the cap again, 90-95%?, he's hitting you for like 9-12 damage while you get him in 8-10 turns at the very least and with ymir alone. Now, if that ymir has double damage spells on him that's a lot faster.

>>2328596
Since all factions can inflict DoT damage, my personal priority is that the party can reliably outheal or stunlock the Guardian after surviving their first hit. Since healing units never miss, but status effects don't always proc, I prefer former to latter. This is how I look at the issue:

>Empire: CAN heal in combat most effectively; CAN'T stunlock; HAVE good armor and best damage buffing spells
Strategy: Get armor buffed high enough (and level up your healer enough) to outheal Guardian damage and kill the guardian with regular and DoT damage

>Elves: CAN heal in combat less effectively; CAN'T stunlock; DON'T HAVE armor and damage buffing spells (but have a health buffing spell)
Strategy: Same as Empire, but you'll have to purchase Empire/Clan armor spells as well as potions

>Undead: CAN heal in combat very ineffectively; CAN stunlock; DON'T HAVE any armor and damage buffing spells
Strategy: Get armor buffed high enough to survive the first hit, and then hope Guardian won't resist the Paralysis effect until he's whittled down by regular and DoT damage

>Legion: CAN'T heal in combat; CAN stunlock; DON'T HAVE any armor and damage buffing spells
Strategy: Same as Undead but with with the added possibility to both Petrify and Paralyze them

>Clans: CAN'T heal in combat; CAN'T stunlock; HAVE best armor and good damage buffing spells
Strategy: Just buff your armor and hope you can kill Guardian with regular and DoT damage before your units start dying, using a healing talisman or potion during fight seems mandatory

>>2328622
>if it's a skirmish guardian without all the campaign buffs
Guardian has base stats of 900 health, 50+40 armor (and immunity from Shatter) and 250 Life damage, regardless of whether you're playing a Saga or a campaign. There are very few instances where the Guardian is debuffed; a few times in the Sagas (your Guardian in the last Empire Saga mission and the enemy Guardian in the last mission of the Clans expansion saga), and only once in a scenario IIRC.
>he's hitting you for like 9-12 damage while you get him in 8-10 turns at the very least and with ymir alone
Sure, but then it's not a 1 turn KO, is it.

>>2328630
>regardless
It can go as low as 190 HP with 50 armor and 30*4 + 110*4 for ~560 which is a 1 turn KO, isn't it.

>>2328635
Again, sure, but the implicit discussion is what party comp and strategy can deal with the regular Guardian.

>>2328637
You don't think it's silly to ignore parts of the game where's it's expected for you to kill the guardian in a discussion about killing guardians? But sure, if you're doing that I assume you also go all out and have a reasonably good hero to go with it. Entering a fight with your armor already hard capped means your regen is actually doing something and double casting all damage increasing spells does mitigate some of their armor.

The stunties got a horse in that race is all I'm saying. And I'm saying that as a terminal necrofag.

>>2328645
>You don't think it's silly to ignore parts of the game where's it's expected for you to kill the guardian in a discussion about killing guardians?
Yes, silly as it may seem. You don't need a particular strategy or build when dealing with weakened guardians. Everything that was mentioned still applies, but you generally don't have to clench your butt when a Spectre's Paralysis attack misses the Guardian once.
>and double casting all damage increasing spells
I'm 99.9% sure you can't double cast a buffing/debuffing spell on a single party.

>>2328622
Can you even apply frostbite more than once? I was under the impression it was not a stacking debuff.

>>2328671
You can't.

The one thing I do like about the dwarves is that their lvl 5 summon is capable of killing off most starter units through the armor buff and will survive that opening hit from the guardian. It makes for a decent way to clear chaff without giving them a level. If you have mana to burn you can usually pop in a decent amount of damage on the guardian once those openers are dead that way since some of the other summons outright survive or can be buffed to tank a hit.

>>2328626
Elves can kill the guardian pretty quick though. Savage's critical portion of the attack goes around armor letting them hit surprisingly hard. A party with some decent levels and a DoT archer can kill a guardian in 3 or 4 turns. The health buff also opens up dual healer setups at fairly low armor values.

>>2330126
>Can you even apply frostbite more than once?
NTA. Stronger DoT replace weaker one if they share same name. Not sure if same logic applies when damage source taken in consideration. But it's not relevant for the vanilla anyway. The one thing I can't remember about debuffs if they can run out at the same turn you applied them. Pretty sure only Polymorph designed like that.

How would you fix
>Elementalist
>Angel
>Wight
>Dwarf King
>Wolf Lord
>Witch
>Hag
>Succubus

>>2330591
>Elementalist
make the summon stronger or dont make it a summoner at all, give him shatter and lower his base damage.
>Angel
no need to.
>Wight
i dont know but drain level have to go. maybe you can give him a paralyze side effect.
>Dwarf King
he's fine, just lower the cost of the building.
>Wolf Lord
no need to.
>Witch
>Hag
>Succubus
no need to.

>>2330591
>Elementalist
massive initiative buff. Make him strong enough in his niche to be viable. Otherwise you could make most summoners semi-viable by giving the summons terrible initiative and letting them attack the turn they're summoned. Giving more summoners the same ability as the wolf lord, attacking and summoning, would also help.
>angel
It would need some kind of reason to sidegrade for it over everything else. Maybe to keep it in theme give it a healing ability? Something like out of combat healing. Otherwise air ward would be fairly in-theme too and pretty good.
>wight
either give it bonus damage or a further debuff if there are no levels to drain.
>Dwarf King
like the other anon said, cut the building cost in half or so. Or give it the same health as a venerable warrior. Or give it like 5 more armor. It really doesn't need much.
>Wolf lord
see notes about the elementalist.
>Witch etc.
As is, it seems fair that their debuff can expire t0 since it can also last longer than 1 turn. I guess you could bring them in line with others of the same sort by standardizing it to 1 turn, but that would take away their niche because the incubus exists. I see two options, first the succubus should probably have slightly higher base accuracy. It's clear the goal with them is to transform a decent portion of the enemy party and leave some of them transformed long term. But the double accuracy check defeats the purpose, so bringing up the initial accuracy would make them at minimum around the efficacy of a spectre.

Alternatively, lower the succubus base accuracy and ensure the debuff always lasts at least one turn. This would give you a unit that is worse the first turn compared to other lock units, but more likely to lock up an entire party on t2 and beyond. Idk if this actually is enough, since the first lock turn is the most important and imps can still defend/tail poke. You could do the same to the rest of the line but I think it would be too good.

if you're playing a small map the angel is already a good choice. can also be useful if you're short of money. but if you really want to make it an alternative to the tier 5 knights you could give him life damage instead of weapon like the guardians. i think it would fit and it would be an interesting ability.

>>2330591
Already fixed in D3 Everything else is a mess.

I played D1/D2 hotseat with my cousins my whole summers. I downloaded D3 and I Dunno. Unit seems like same as D2 but with additional abilities, however level up scheme is weird. also, campaign is kinda weird for strategy game as it tries to be ROG to much. in D1/D2 I know where i need to move forward as can i see cleared ruins/controlled towns/controlled terrain, while n d3, ruins respawn and i cant tell who controls parts of the map.
tl'dr: is D3 Reincarnation worth it for campaign only?

>>2331272
>same as D2
If only. It has it's own quirks, but amazing D2 art-style and 3D models is not one of them.
>is D3 Reincarnation worth it for campaign only?
No. If you value your time that is. The game is dumpsterfire. But it has certain "charms" Make no mistake. It's very slow and really fucking boring. And lack of overcap HP and attack growth makes every unit feel like absolute shit.

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Where are the spiritual successors? Homm has Hero's Hour and Songs of Conquest, Age of Wonders is still going and there's stuff like Spellforce Conquest of Eo, meanwhile we get... literally nothing? I played a demo for a game called Lords of Ravage, the bleak tone and two-row combat really reminded me of Disciples, but the game is an rpg with no strategic layer. With all the retro-baiting permeating the indie scene I'm surprised that no eastern yuro studio (because God knows only we care about these games) have even attempted to make a ripoff.

>>2333604
Gachas took over that market.

>>2318765
>Shit to play as
>Shit go play against
The only redeemable thing about dwarves are their swell buildings

>>2333604
It's a shame that closest "spiritual successor" is fucking Wesnoth. Well general lack of interest compare to something like HoMM. Also the process is much more complicated for re-creation too. There are reason Legends of Eisenwald (another Disciples inspired game), goes for low-fantasy approach for an example.
>>2333999
>Shit to play as
The Master Thug sends his regards.

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>>2334243
Nothing wrong with Eisenwald and I'll fight you over it.

>>2334251
I don't shit on Eisenwald tho. My point being making multiple variants of the unit, each with their unique VGU and SFX is complex task. Which is very hard to tackle for indie/AA budget developers and big studios have really streamlined process of making things.
HoMM approach is very simple. Take swordsman, slap fancier pauldrons on elite version and you done. Meanwhile there are 3 different versions that Squire twink has to go through to become Chad Thundercock with dual greatswords. Each has distinct visual design. This is just for one unit NOT counting other branches that completely change how said unit looks visually.

>>2334320
Pretty sure you're missing the point. Design choices like leading a party with units that level and or can equip items vs armies where you stack over six gorillion entities aside and 3DO not being a massive studio, ever, your spriters need something to do as well while the rest of the game is being worked on. Not seeing a 3+ step upgrade chain with possible sidegrades as something overcomplicated either, hell, homm had it in some versions as well. But the main point being - these games don't sell that well and definitely cater to a niche market.

>>2334380
>Design choices like leading a party with units that level and or can equip items vs armies where you stack over six gorillion entities
See. I get that part. But that's not what made Disciples stand out in a first place.
>something overcomplicated either
Oh yeah? Name 55666999 games that actually do that, punk. If it wasn't overcomplicated that would be done more often.
>homm had it in some versions as well
You had two options which you could switch or mix them together. HoMM 4 is the only example where branches are mutually exclusive to each other. And they are not even remotely comparable in that regard.
>these games don't sell that well and definitely cater to a niche market
That's what I said in the first post tho....

>>2334411
>That's what I said in the first post tho....
And yet you missed your own point.

>>2334320
I really don't think it's as complicated as you say. Darkest Dungeon 2 is a production by 20-ish people and it has a large variety of models used in game, I'd wager comparable to Disciples, but I'd have to count. And I am only talking about unique models, not recolours or slightly modified alternative variants (which DD2 also has)

>>2334420
It was one of my points. You just decide to get pedantic over one of them.
>>2334441
>has a large variety of models used in game
None of this apply to visual for playable characters as far as I can remember. First game had cosmetic change, but they were mostly color schemes. With the only exception being Arbalest and Musketeer. Roguelikes tend to have decent enemy variety to them. I hate to repeat myself. I hate to repeat myself. But "not complicated" greatly exaggerated when none of examples were provided in a first place.

>>2335149
>one of my points
Well, passable bait usually requires at least something that makes sense in between all that other garbage you posted. Not bad honestly.

>>2335179
>passable bait usually requires at least something
And yet I bother to reply. Curious and frankly says a lot about me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYplovElmsA&list=RDHYplovElmsA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6njr4_NyvU4&list=RD6njr4_NyvU4

What i liked in Disciples golden lands and II is that unlike a LOT of strategy games or rpg games, Empire and Clans dudes become older with each tier of advancement. usually in games if they powerful knight, its usually young dude in shiny armor. in disciples? more old dude, more badass he gets, so can see how your young squire's career goes down as he becomes defender of faith.

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>>2335149
I thought your original point was that it's not viable because of the *total* amount of work, not how many models are used by player characters?
But just to humour this, I went in and counted how many unique models each game has. For the purposes of fairness I included all the expansions/DLC that each game has - so for D2 it's base game + Guardians of the Light + Servants of the Dark + Rise of the Elves and for DD2 it's base game + DLC classes + Kingdoms expansion. I came up with these numbers:
>Disciples 2
Each faction has 35 units (including heroes, base units, capital guard, all upgrades and all summons), except for Elves who only have 34
There are 54 "common" neutral units, and an additional 19 units unique to story quests.
In total, this adds up to 237 models
>Darkest Dungeon 2
There are 29 playable hero models - 14 heroes with two models each (I count story unlockable models as separate because they have completely different meshes and textures) + 1 bounty hunter who only has one models
There are (generally) 6-8 units per enemy faction, resulting in 67 "common" enemies in the base game, 3 minibosses, and 11 act boss models
For the Kingdoms DLC there are 5 enemies per new faction (15 in total), 3 faction bosses and 6 militia that you can hire. They also added slimes that can show up in the base game too, with 5 new enemies
In total, I counted 139 unique models

Now, at first glance, this seems like quite a big disparity, as it's almost half of what we get in Disciples 2 - but you have to include the fact that in D2 the content is actually fairly limited - each model has 3-4 animations/vfx (combat idle, attack, getting hit, sometimes walking - but not all models even have an overworld version), while in DD2 even basic enemies have 2 skills, and most of them have 3-4 or more, meanwhile playable heroes have 11 skills, most of which have unique animations and vfx.

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Fiends make you wonder what the point of the Devil line is. I got pic related in one campaign mission.

>>2335944
I really hate how good Gargoyle and Fiend are both in terms of perfomance and cost efficiency. Same way it's better to just lock Cultist instead of going for Modeus. It's not even funny.
>what the point of the Devil line is
Abyssal Devils have petrify, Overlords are Son of Yumir larpers (in RoE at least) and Timat can reduce enemy damage.

>>2335944
Ask the Titan the same thing what is the point of her existence. Other than GIANT MOMMY STEP ON ME!

With the Devil line you can argue that they have AOE damage versions which is an AOE damage dealer that cannot be easily sniped down like the Caster line. The downside is that it deal physical damage which is probably the worse type of AOE damage.

The other question is if you need a long or short term power.

Short term the Devil costs 100g the upgrade building is 300g and it 275XP to level into a and the Demon which has superior stats (save for initiative 50 which does matter) to a level 1 Fiend save for poison. With the poison which is an a amazing secondary effect, one can argue of being situational since only has 40% chance to trigger, most undead enemies are immune to poison and there are many ways to remove it. So that is 400g and 275 XP.

The Fiend's building cost 200g + 750g to build then hiring the fiend costs another 300g together that is, 1250g more than TRIPLE of getting a demon and 475XP to have the Fiend go level 2 and be roughly on par with a demon.

Then after 750g to make the upgrade building and 850 XP the Demon can upgrade to a Moloch which again has superior stats to a level 4 Fiend which would need 475*4 = 1900XP to catch up. While the Moloch needed 275 + 850 = 1225 XP.
The Moloch needed 1150g to get in comparison to the 1250g of a single level 1 Fiend which is on a side branch of the warrior building tree.

So in the short term the Devil line is available instantly, cheaper, stronger and has a smoother building upgrade path, the Fiend needs a lot of forward gold investment to get and time to catch up. It will catch up hard tough because after the Moloch the upgrade building is retarded expensive the Fiend levels faster and poison scales with both damage + chance. Also the Fiend becomes way cheaper to resurrect as well due to resurrection gold cost is based on the base level of the creature so it is always the same.

>>2335989
>The Moloch needed 1150g to get in comparison to the 1250g of a single level 1 Fiend which is on a side branch of the warrior building tree.
But you will pretty much always build the first upgrade of the warrior tree anyways it isn't lost gold.

>>2335989
good post.

>>2335944
>>2335955
>>2335989
The real reason these "special" units feel so weird is that they were never really intended for the gameplay systems of D2. In D1, where every unit had level caps on max rank, they made sense - if you wanted a fast power spike, for the purposes of leaving town guard, or maybe to powerlevel some hero. You bought Titan or Fiend, who were stronger upfront but couldn't gain XP as a downside. Then came D2, where everyone could level up as much as they want and the devs didn't bother testing how well they scale in the long run. Same with unit lock - I'd wager the idea for that feature was "what if I wanted to keep my specter instead of shade" and at the end we get the cultist vs modeus situation.

>>2336214
they dont feel weird, they all cover a weakness and fill a niche of their respective races. for a price.
titan? strong frontline when knights all suffer of low hp at early levels.
yeti? aoe attack when dwarves lack a proper mage unit at early levels.
werewolf? well, this one is just a tricky unit. i feel an archer could have worked better.
fiend? strong unit that you dont have to "carry", since both the devil and stone gargoyles are a pain to keep them alive.
grifon? melee unit with standard initiative and good damage, unlike the sturdier but slower centaurs.

>>2336489
>titan
>strong frontline
It cost two leadership to carry one in the party. Having Titan as fronline makes mages more desirable since you need an AOE to clear goblins and what not. But that also means you need to commit to Priest line too. Cleric 20 HP is not going to do much. Also while Titan can take some punishment, you backline is now squishy mages that don't deal a lot of damage early on. And White Wizard is like one of the worst high tier mage in game. You do get more XP per fight and Titan makes great city defender.
>grifon
Same as Titan. Can be upgraded to Sky Lord at least. In Elven campaign enemy AI will always prioritize squishy backline and almost always have assasins in their party. So having tanky frontline doesn't help much in that regard. And elves have fastest to high tier paths in game. So cost efficiency can't even be argued. Unlike for Empire.
>i feel an archer could have worked better
Wraith-line is the undead archer line. Just like werewolf comes with weapon immunity. Can't say much about the Yeti. I think they have really bad damage, but they also absurdly tanky with 300-350 (?) HP. Makes really mean enemy for low level party. But as part of Clans roster. Clans have a lot of niche units that don't see a lot of play very often becayse alternative is so much better compare to really niche case. E.g Alchemist, Flamethrower, Dwarf King, Wolf Lord and Elder One.

>>2336519
>You do get more XP per fight
this is not a small detail.
>So cost efficiency can't even be argued
i cant deny it and going for grifons instead of centaurs may seem more a whimsical choice than a pondered one but i think it should also be considered the low amount of experience it takes to get an unit like the skylord which have an impressive amount of hp and damage. it may actually be a viable and very good strategy as long you know you're gonna find all the money required through items to sell or exploring ruins.
>Wraith-line is the undead archer line
yeah but you're forcet to wait until you get the exp required and you must renounce the more interesting mage choices.
also personally i pick alchemists far more often than druids.

>>2336535
>this is not a small detail
No argument there. This is why it's listed as positive.
>whimsical choice than a pondered one
But it's whimsical. It's really weird one. You lose backline slot that could be used for archer. It might be good for one-off scenarios, but not campaign.
>low amount of experience it takes to get an unit like the skylord
Going from lancer to charger. Require less gold invested and you get unit that levels faster, has only 10 less initiative and 20 armor to boot. But leveling centaur might as well be a feat consider how fucking bad this unit is at baseline.
>you must renounce the more interesting mage choices
You mean vampire branch. Funny how Lich has highest damage at base, but life drain overflow is basically free healing. Also I was trying to imagine undead archer with weapon immunity. Yeah. That sounds very scary. Even if it's going to cost 1k gold just to hire one.

>>2336535
>yeah but you're forcet to wait until you get the exp required and you must renounce the more interesting mage choices.
Personally I do not find tho left side UD mage choces that interesting. First of all they all do the same Death damage type which makes all other undead completely immune to them.

The Lich line is just your basic boring squishy AOE nuker nothing more, which to me at least is a huge letdown.

Vamp line has more hp and the life leech means far greater survivability the Elder Vamp is cool on paper but their heal utility doesn't come into game as often unless it is some story bossfight it can be great sustain but you can always just rotate troops between cities without needing an Elder Vamp.

Personally I prefer the vamp line but sometime take reaper cause I like to play on very hard difficulty where level drain doesn't make that much of a difference anymore if your enemies are 5-10 levels above their base then you cannot downgrade their unit type until you drained all levels.

>>2336553
>has only 10 less initiative
and that's enough to take the full hit of the enemy frontline before you can act. which is not a tragedy since chargers have a good armor but consider a banner that improves your initiative. they're not that hard to find. then add the fact that archons can already sometimes strike before warriors if they're lucky thanks 45 initiative which it's gonna be improved by the banner and both the warrior hero and the mage hero have 55 and 45 initiative too... my point is that with the skylord and an initiative banner you have the chance to crush the enemy frontline before they even have the chance to act. the skylord is a fearsome unit, it's powerful like a frost giant and requires like 400 exp to get it. and a lot of money, sure.

Lost my save. Is there a good way to level a character for export other than campaign?

>>2336563
you should be able to export custom heroes from custom maps created by the scenario editor.

>>2336563
If it's for the Guardians of the Light and Servants of the Dark campaigns then I could upload some of my heroes.

oh btw i discovered recently that while elves oracles suck, they have an improved stat boost when they level up, if locked down.

>>2336566
scenedit seem to be not working on GNU+Linux.

>>2336567
yeah, but I just need an undead one.

>>2336603
https://litter.catbox.moe/74gsen5xjga4qrrt.zip
This is an undead hero from finishing the original campaign (level 15).
Put it in your Disciples 2/Exports folder and it should work.

>>2336607
thanks

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Some of Barlowe's paintings remind me of D2.

The terrain should have buffed the controlling faction units. I feel like these games missed out on positional tactics by neglecting this.

>>2337886
It saddens me to admit it, but this series is basically "Unrealized Potential: The Game". They could've done so much with the concepts in it, but alas.

>>2337886
>>2338288
You two are correct there is space for a ton of more mechanics an it was heavily carried mostly by the artstyle and atmosphere. Most of the units/fights are quite one note most of the time. Or maybe the simplicity of the fights is the charm of it all?

Is this mod any good?
https://www.moddb.com/mods/disciples-2-dzieje-nevendaar-zwiastun-mroku
i don't speak kurwa btw

>>2338634
While I can appreciate simplicity, there's a limit, especially after playing many other strategy games. Hell, even going back from D2 to D1, which I love the vibes of, is a pain. I marvel at the main menu, the beautiful portraits, banger ost, and then get in a fight and there's not even a defend or wait function? Come on, surely by 1999 there had to have been SOME standards to turn-based combat. I do like low-level fights in Disciples being just auto-attack fests, but when your party is full of elite units there should be a bit more variety. There are nuggets of this design in units like Doppelganger or Wolf Lord where you have your normal attack and something else (in this case transform), but it's do scarce.
Inclusion of several skills could also help with the balance. People mentioned Wight earlier - if you don't like level drain as a baseline (I'm fine with it, but just as an example) just make it an alternative attack. Make it have a several turn cooldown. Or make it conditional. Or one time use per battle, whichever feels good to play as and against.

>>2338722
It will never be released for non polish diszczord gois anyway.

>>2336535
I like Skylords a lot on secondary parties, they spike early and there's nothing better for picking off rod planters/thieves or holding a fort against anything other than a starter party. But they just aren't viable for starter groups. They take too long to build into and fall off compared to two units. Elves are also in an odd place with their frontline. Their warrior hero is clearly not great compared to other options and lacks the appeal of other warrior heroes that offer flying or some additional synergy like the dwarf does with the alchemist. Net result is that backline spots for elves are really tight. Healer/archer/hero/mage is an overloaded roster already and the skylord means sacrificing another one of those. Yeah the centaurs are iffy, but armor is a good perk on a unit that doesn't require much gold/time investment and critical strike means the savage spikes around the same as the skylord. Mainly, they don't restrict your teambuilding options. That matters way less on a secondary party though, because you can't stuff them full of as much xp and the early spike and bonus funneling pays off better.

>>2339405
>backline spots for elves are really tight
There is nothing stopping you from putting archers into the front row. It's a common strategy to use the dryad + 5 Brigands. You kill stuff before they get to attack at all.

>>2318765
Disciples has such a weird lore
>satan made humans
>other angels deceived god somehow and made humans bad
>god hates humans but took them in for some reason
>satan now hates humans
>also there are elves, orcs and dwarves

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>>2339405
>backline spots for elves are really tight.

>>2339405
>Their warrior hero is clearly not great compared to other options and lacks the appeal of other warrior heroes
Dual rapiers are cool tho. Plus unlike fighter line he has good initiative. Also you can use your scout hero as frontline fighter. They have high HP.
>>2339478
It's very Tolkienesque except knife ears they probably copy pasted from WH fantasy. But not very elaborated or well explained. Also God is a biggest cuck in setting which is very funny.
>satan now hates humans
He doesn't. Really. He hates everyone equally.
>also there are elves, orcs and dwarves
IIrc Nevendaar is collaborative work. This races also were created along with humans. Dragons and fishpeople too.

>>2339764
No it is very gnostic, Edu could never hate any of his creations, if he did, he wouldnt be Eru, also he couldnt be a Cuck by the same definition. They wanted a reason to have God vs Satan on the same level.

>>2339436
I mean, on one hand I can see the logic and I understand how you could make that work. It seems quite powerful at the point of having brigands. On the other, it seems like trading off your entire earlygame for a stronger lategame. The sheer xp needs alone must really suck and leveling must be annoying as fuck.

Also this is just my opinion, but the brigand isn't worth it. They're certainly fun, but I always feel like they take far too long to actually arrive and the other lines spike so fast and so in-line with the rest of the elves units you can get a lategame party much, much quicker than other factions and tempo over the map.

>>2339764
They are for sure the coolest. The sword poke then slap animation is imo the best of all warrior heroes. Initiative isn't bad, but I just can't see it holding a candle to flight/forestwalk. Initiative is a nice to have perk, flight/forestwalk are the difference between getting to the fight and watching it happen. I have tried scouts as frontliners, it's not terrible. I just feel like the mage hero is most convenient. It does feel like the elves had a more even set of leader choices than other races. There were a lot of points where I got the sense the devs learned a ton from designing the first four factions and addressed a lot of little things with the elves.

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Already getting bored on first playthrough because I can't resist savescumming and minmaxing.

>>2339405
>Net result is that backline spots for elves are really tight
their healers are mediocre though, so you can easily sacrifice one backline spot for the skylord. also elves have healing magic, which helps you to avoid the hassle to carry healers until 4 (because both the oracle and the grove maiden die all the fuckin time to literally anything).

>>2341521
>skill issue

>>2341521
On my first playthrough i got filtered by the AI spamming damage spells on me every turn, think it was the Empire campaign where you first meet the dwarves(it was the dwarves)

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>>2341516
>The sword poke then slap animation is imo the best of all warrior heroes
Well, your opinion is wrong cause Pegasus Knight's reverse sword grip swing exists.

>>2319839
Lmao, leftie defends "innocent" rapeugees. They deserved it, Total Elf Death.

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>>2348844
>Lmao, leftie defends "innocent" rapeugees
Considering that the Undead (who only exist because Solonielle snapped) slaughtered a bunch of Dwarves and Elves (under the leadership of Gallean's evil spirit) put the remainders of the Clans in a house arrest, I'd say that Dwarves would've had a much better time if they let those refugees pass.
Not that you are arguing in good faith here.

>>2335944
>Fiends make you wonder what the point of the Devil line is.
To get either the Abyssal Devil or the Tiamath units. Overlord is only pure damage while the former two either petrify or debuff an enemy's damage capabilities.

>>2348844
based and beardpilled

>>2348961
>Tiamath
One of the worst choices in the game. The initiative is too low to act before enemy Medusa/Mermaid/Incubus/Spectre (which have almost 100% hitrate on very hard) and if you take the Tiamath you will likely not have more than one other hit-all unit which means you can't defeat them before they act. You might say that the Legion has initiative lowering spells but since those spells are percantage based they will only remove 1-2 inititative which means there is still a high chance the paralyzer acts first.

BETHREZEN IS DYING

>>2349530
Tiamath is a super-late game generalist support unit that is used for extended fights and to remove shooter enemies that would otherwise snipe your casters while it is hard to snipe due to its almost 500 HP. The point of the lower damage ability is to curb damage over the long term, since you cannot cast offensive spell inside cities Legions have a terrible time assaulting highly defended cities where alpha striking doesn't work. Any kind of effect that helps your party's survival like lowering enemy damage can be a huge help.

Won't argue with your points though. Yes, it is a generalist unit without a clear purpose and sucks for gimmick fights and since it is super late game unit it does absolutely nothing in the early game but drains your economy just to get it which is by far the worst part of it.

>>2351690
If you want to reduce damage it just seems more effective to use the abyssal anyway since it has a paralyze that lasts. Put that thing in the center of your party and it probably does more by locking down multiple units than a tiamath over a long fight. I don't recall if lower damage even has a different source than paralyze, but that would be about the only nice thing about it I could think of.

>>2348829
I always found it to be almost too stylish. Maybe it's the white trail effect+pegasus motion but the whole animation just seemed too busy and the details seem to get lost in the shuffle, like the whole is less than the sum of the parts. I like the ones that are simple and clean most so the Rock Giant is probably my favorite. Just a nice satisfying windup and thump with very little magic effects.

>>2353147
>I don't recall if lower damage even has a different source than paralyze
No it's mind. Lower damage is good when enemy attack is 100+ and it's comes with something like earth immunity but not mind immunity. While there are some units that comes with earth ward, only two outright immune to it. Both are summons too. Not even neutral. With that being said. Timat description and design overall is metal as fuck. The game is just not well balanced for him to perform on the same level.

>>2353147
>I don't recall if lower damage even has a different source than paralyze
You are correct both the Tiamath's Lower Damage and the Abyssal Devil's Petrify are Mind source. The first major difference is obviously that the Tiamath is AOE and the second that the Petrify is only 40% to hit while the Lower Damage is 80% to hit. The Abyssal has 40 Initiative while the Tiamath has only 20 but the Tiamath does 100 damage AOE while the Abyssal does 140 single target melee. The Abyssal has 600 HP the Tiamath 495. So the Tiamath is more of a caster that can potentially deal more damage and reduces enemy damage party wide but cannot completely shutdown targets like Abyssal.

>>2318765
Are Liberation and Domination any good? Everything screams that no but I want a confirmation from anons.

>>2353282
No

>>2353282
I've only played Liberation and the game has nothing to do with Disciples. It was very obviously an unrelated tactical rpg that was forced to wear Disciples skin as a way for the publisher to test the waters with reviving the franchise. It is not the worst game I've played but it is incredibly mediocre and I really cannot recommend spending time on it.

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>>2353147
>I like the ones that are simple and clean most
I mean, wouldn't you love the Squire's attack (or any other lvl1 small melee unit) the most if that's the case? If we're only talking about Leaders, Mages have the most satisfying attacks IMO.

>>2353282
If you like Disciples. Steer clear from both.
>Liberation
It's not "bad" game, but everything about it is rage inducing. I'm not even kidding. The gameplay is fine. But as anon said. It's just Disciples IP slapped on very mediocre game. And I beat NG+
>Domination
Just Liberation but really mediocre. How is that even possible? Less infuriating, but also really boring. Somehow it looks, sounds and runs worse than predecessor. Which is an achievement.