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>>7929904
>No and it's not really worth it. It didn't really enhance the story of Berserk in any way
That I agree with, it was a waste of time and everyone was waiting years until they got off of that boat. I think that was one of DochebagChocolat's last vids.
>Miura really should've just gone into illustrations.
Berserk is an amazing story that a lot of people connects to, at first you read it for the edginess then you read it for the metaphor of Trauma and how to move on from those burdens. Just today I realized I cannot go all out like I used to when I was younger then I thought of picrel (though I'm sure it said let your conviction be your pivot mandela effect, idk) now I see the berserker Armor is kind of a metaphor for getting older and not letting your passions Engulf you for it will have consequences.
If he moved on we wouldn't have that beauty and socially inept nerds like me wouldn't understand what I'm doing to myself.
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>>7929952
The ability to draw something like the OP takes loads of talent and thousands upon thousands of hours of practice. I don't think I need to prove it. It's self-evident. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try.
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>>7929927
>>7929930
The story meandered and devolved into nothing as it constantly relied on the artwork and the shock factor. It's clear he began to lose interest in the story and simply should've just made an art gallery.
>>7929946
It did mellow down to the end, and honestly I think it's way less cartoonishly edgy. It's also barely a plot at that point. He should've made a shift to slice of life much sooner if he actually cared. Berserk's strongest points have almost nothing to do with the plot.
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>>7929904
>>7929901
you can tell that these illustrations consumed his entire life almost, just form into render, over and over. there was definitely a point in berserk where miura made the story take a backseat to what he wanted to draw that week. He made a good portion of the manga as a kid (20-30) and grew away from the more serious elements and instead treated those sections with increasing ridiculousness, probably jumping the shark in that regard somewhere around rape horse.
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No, I'd agree with Anon 7929904, but with a different explanation; the technique is crosshatching and some ink is used - but if you only count the strokes made it's very obviously a shitload of work.
Take the one fish on the bottom or any other; the repetiously used gridlines follow and define the form. Were they get tighter and thicker its were the more darker areas are. If that's not enough - ink is used. He seems to got his inspiration from older botanical and seacreature illustrations...
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>>7929901
this garbage? yes, obviously.
in a week!
A week of someone who teaches what exactly truly to do, not "how to learn to learn it on your own as all people in drawthreads here do"
and each day, multiple tasks that take OVER 5 HOURS! EACH!
t. (i dont know what t means) permaprebegschizo
##what do i see? i see lines that are drawn around the creatures and on their bodies. extremely cheap
what i also see are details that seem unrealistic and excessive, rather then non-made-up!
now, the forms are complicated. but they are all mechanics that can be taught in a few days with the right mentor, especially "the lines around the forms" and "the animals".
eyes and nets and mouths can also be drawn easily
cheap anime face (author is seemingly drawing garbage), and cheap meaningless "armor, action, sword, excess drawing". this is literally hype fiction in its form. it is designed to look "impressive". it should not exist. it is bad.
shades are more complicated, as are composition stuff. but still learnable in 4 days
i believe in my words, i never post bait
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>>7930883
):
i dont think it should look cool. draw like a child, or like a realistic drawing. cool? a waste of time- a lie. how warped will the worldview be, how wasted the time, and how hurt the imagination, after seeing false "dopamine inducing" fiction. where is the difference between wanting "cool" and wanting "social media/gaming"? wanting "cool" is less regarded as an addiction or morally wrong deed, even though it is!
(and therefore this art is not that good and partially immoral)
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>>7929901
As a hopeless beg who literally just started taking the grind seriously (enrolled into an art class, doing daily grinds) and having read some of the techniques used in that panel, I say yes, you can realistically achieve that in a relatively short term goal. Maybe 3-4 years if you REALLY slack off.
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>>7929904
I disagree. One of Beserk's legacies is how good the art is, and I think its highly polished rendering better presents the stakes and grimness of the world. I doubt Beserk would be as fondly remembered, or as popular, were it not for the art - not that I'm dismissing the story or whatever.
Can you say more with less? Sure. Is that method best suited for every story? No. I think something that's intended to feel 'epic' needs to have art to match; something that gives you a bit of a feeling of awe, for example.
Besides, if everyone gave a more minimalist approach, it'd make the art for everything feel samey.
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>>7930939
also, berserk is the type of manga that the parents warned about. That society, at least the good and christian parts, were righteously against, and which has a lot of bad influence, and false advertising, making people hyped and liking it. It is evil, like other media (warhammer, warcraft, almost all anime, and so on). I am glad i avoided trying to become immersed or to truly learn much about it. Grimshart indeed in some ways. And "generic and small scope of events" as well, truly. "Masterpiece" i could create much better things then this. And pure of all of the garbage as well! Dont adore this false makeup-garbage. It's ugly at it's core, not just "the setting", but the whole internal origin of what is improved by looking or feeling good. Next you "know betters" will tell me french art is good and france is the leading example of art development. Bah
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>>7931095
i respond by saying that the lies and the repetition of all of this evil is meaningless. And bad. and that anybody uncertain of your truthfullness should remind himself that the universal hostility coming from 4chan is not to be trusted (why trust hostility anyways). Going by roman morals, the hostile "4channers" should not be trusted anyways. I will never assimilate to be "a bot".
And this is the proof that i am much more credible than any of these false attempts to harm
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>>7931158
off topic, insulting, and meaningless
suggestion: if you took all the harm you reccomend to others to yourself- wouldn't you die? do you want others to die because you don't like them? do you adore your absolute made-up but seemingly virtuous hostility?
the suggestion is: you leave. this is my place now
and become a saint
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>>7931075
I think there is more value in teaching a young adult to discern rather than stay away from things like Berserk. There's a lot of obvious artistic merit that grabs your attention. If the youth aren't instructed on how to interpret controversial media when they inevitably do interact with it they will likely implode.
https://www.tertullian.org/fathers/basil_litterature01.htm
St. Basil the Great even addressed the topic of interacting with pagan media in an address to his disciples. There was more to lose in reason and virtue by prohibiting pagan media than by synthesizing everything that was compatible with Christianity.
The ripple effects of having avoided pagan media would've be huge. Imagine not being able to enjoy Homer's epics. Imagine Beowulf not being transcribed. High fantasy such as Tolkien? Unwritten. Philosophy of the mind and conscious? Lost. Who knows what else?
Personally, I enjoyed Berserk and had my own takeaways from it. I found the theme of the "unavoidability of your lot" within the elves of the misty valley story very compelling. I found the critiques of inquisition and religious vitriol valid. I did not agree with the syncretism of the pagan world and Christian world and therefore gave it no personal value.
The rape horse was pretty cool too.
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1/2
To me berserk suffers from being visually generic, super detailed cross hatched art has been around for centuries now and to me berserk is just generic manga with all the usual tropes and style polished with tedious and pretty rendering.
I understand and know well why it's considered great looking by manga fans, it's definitely a unicorn in its own field but as a whole it just feels like a one trick pony to me and probably most people who aren't specifically into manga or comics in general.
I find the effect it has on the audiences very inspiring but not the art, the fact that high effort comic book art can have such a powerful impact on the reader is great but that same effect can be done in many different ways.
I see tons of artwork online that doesn't get much attention that is on the same level as berserk and I think it's because berserk is valued because people appreciate the manga, I don't think the art can stand alone without the context of the story.
Kim jung gi is another one trick pony, his comics didn't get any attention because they weren't particularly good and his art wasn't valued until he started drawing life and turned his career into performance art.
But again his art is only valued for tue context and he never managed to get out of it, people usually can't even name any specific artwork from him because the reason why they like it and are impressed by it is because of the way he draws them.
Alex ross (pic) is an example of an artist who did the se thing but failed because the context wasn't valued and despite the high effort art people don't appreciate it but if he had worked on something that was valued by audiences people woukd be glazing his art like no other.
Ruan jia would be another example.
I think it's important to be able to understand why some art is appreciated instead of taking it for the face value of its success and reputation.
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>>7931299
2/2
If you ask a non artist why they like the art of some type of media they usually describe how it makes them feel but rarely they can explain why so but that doesn't really matter to them because all they care about is how it makes them feel, they don't gain anything from trying to understand the details of it.
Generic artists on the other hand tend to explain what the audiences generally think of the art and what is the general reputation of the art but either can't really get into the details of it or overanalyze the art and get most things completely wrong.
I'm generalizing btw, obviously a lot of people are not like this but this is what I'm used to seeing.
Anyways I really don't think that trying to do what some other artist did before results in anything but dismissable ripoff art, the point of inspiration is to steal ideas from other artists and apply it to your own vision.
You can't steal a vision.
AI has no vision.
Artists who have no vision of their own are no different from how AI generates art and this scares them shitless.
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>>7931311
And to add to this.
I've noticed that if non artists are impressed by a comic as a whole because they've seen the impressive pages they tend to be wowed by even the most basic, unimpressive pages but someone who sees the unimpressive page as the first thing the reaction is never the same.
Hype has a momentum and sometimes people cling on to the initial hype when forming opinions of the comic as a whole.
Sidetracking but another thing I've noticed having seen a long term comic project evolving from amateur all the way to master level is that initially non artists give compliments and as it progresses the compliments remain the same with the only difference that at this level people want to buy the comic on the spot or ask where to buy it almost every time.
Feedback has mindfucking illusions just as critiqung art does.
Artists on the other hand react very differently depending on their specific medium, actors, writers, musicians etc. but people who are in the same medium, drawing, behave very strangely when the art is at master level and it can get really annoying which explains why gatekeeping and anonymity becomes more prevalent at higher levels.
Berserk is master level in its own field, I'm not denying it even though I don't personally like it.
Standards change too.
It's all very confusing.
Standards evolve too, keep in mind that berserk is decades old and comics have changed a lot since then.
Pic related, this was once seen as visually impressive but no filmmaker today would be inspired to do the same thing today.
An artist who decides to copy berserk today is like a filmmaker like that.
Some art remains timeless but identifying that sort of stuff is another thing.
I think it's usually an issue when an artist acquires the technical skills first because they like drawing and later tries to figure out what to actually do with it.
Most default to floating figures and character designs or porn.
Again, just generalizing.
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>>7931472
...vision should be the priority.
Inspiration, wanting to be a great artist and other goals should be secondary, I rarely see people focusing on their vision or realizing how inoortant it is or even that it exists.
Or just draw for fun, if you do it for pure enjoyment none of this matters.
The older the inspiration, the better usually because of this because the art stood the test of time.
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>>7931432
At one point ruan jia's art was the best looking concept art but now it just looks like kitsch AI slops, times change but it's really stupid to say that miura or ruan jia's art isn't well drawn.
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>>7931240
not homer epics? can be compensated. not beowult? okay. not lotr? VERY GOOD!!! philosophy? can be done automatically from within. this talk? a waste if you intend to continue my comment, since i do not intent to talk about why exactly i think x y z and why i argue whoever cares...
redditor? extremely likely to be chatgpt.
>>7931475
your 4 comments:
>it ends with inspiration and not with copying
ok.
"the true problem is that we cannot actually do what we want, because we are always educated that only doing the purely intentional, purely mindful and willed creation without adaptation or following examples is trash"
respond to this if you want.
also, while reading, i think that whatever the art resembles is not what it actually is. this is my criticism, it is "magic"; biblically "a lie". We do not see mundane or real. We only have impression in comics. How dare they. And- while i do not follow to the end to a final message perhaps, does anyone have a message? Is there a final response to resolve the issue of "art being impression, and impression being the purpose, despite not being beneficial"? (do not impress, instead, teach and make them see and read the truth as they wish)
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This is master level art or is it?
Copying this style today wouldn't really make sense because ven a child can draw better than that.
Generic artists at that time were probably scribbling stick figures and corner suns while talking about appeal and copying masters works while some rising artists was figuring out using two tones instead of flat colours.
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>>7931478
I never said it's not well drawn. I just said it's not THAT well drawn. There are really better draftsmen in manga than Miura, but since Berserk is babbies first Seinen, lots of people always act like he is the best or whatever. His drawings are detailed, yes, but that's not everything in art.
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>>7931488
what is the truth about art as "decorative, enciting things without benefit", if the thesis is that art should teach and be an ONLY-TRUE depiction of reality, to purely benefit at all times. not to entertain.
what is your knowledge about this? do you have anything that resolves this question slightly? that says "art isnt that, or art is y, or z is ab and so on..."? any response, but of course, the more it is what i ask of you, the potentially better.
if you truly still are unable to respond, here:
3 things:
1: How to end art as a form of deceiving entertainment, and start art as a form of pure reality-depiction, in whatever way possible (or at least, the most intentional reality depiction, by focussing on the art as a medium that transfers parts of included reality depictions to the reader), in the world? The nazis wouldnt have done it.
2: What is the better form of art: as currently in the world, or if it were all somewhat led by my guidelines (still the same effort and will and intention. just, if the world were realistically changed to be more in the direction i point towards, would art generally be better?)?
3: How to even produce something that is art: is any product that is artful okay enough, or should the world continue on its current course? There seems to be a consesus, an education about how to depict things. And this depiction seems not to be that intelligent, or at least, what i look for with my thesis-utopia
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>>7931495
"you cant be blind and be trustworthy compared to us seeing people". no, being blind is safer, better. not just "preventing harm that comes from the bad parts", but it prevents unnormal change. you let this unnormal berserk manga into your life, and you let it change you since you tolerate this wickedness so often. at this stadium of things, unless "all people learn responsible action", they willl all be affected by whatever mediums they were influenced due to interacting with them. hostility towards something that changes people so much, is neccessary if things fail, and failure is visible and existant: people fail at becoming just more then they were. they become influenced, full of whatever the result of the new media consumption is, and so different from if they had not consumed it. And it is not beneficial- i speak not from "blind hostility" but from "blind-hostility-supporting" knowledge of how this media is. I encountered more then enough bad media already. I have had it harm others or me. (though people do not say it harmed them. but what i think i believe in this case), So, since there wont be a removal of vulnerability-industries of targetting and other exploits (best example: goonerbait), hostility wins.
It is nonsense because you understand it while i refuse to understand? If understanding means to be affected- then it is indeed extremely awful understanding which i should not pursue. If understanding can only be done through media, not through actual prevention or paterns i can recall by reading a wikipedia article, then it is not trustworthy. And you trust the "wicked" media, yet you do not trust the un-wicked human
you cant "can mean": you should not/its nonsense, or you can not, since this would not work, or you cant do it good if you do it this way. and more
the parents understand...
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>>7931496
I really don't do art philosophy or metaphysics in general, I've never cared about that stuff
I only care about the practical and technical aspects of art, I'm completely useless for these types of conversations
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>>7931494
It's difficult to judge since art is still somewhat subjective to a degree, but I probably would put him in A tier, not S tier.
Takehiko Inoue for example is a better artist imo. His stories may not be as catchy as Berserk, but he can draw better. Vagabond art is pretty nuts.
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>>7931503
in one short sentence: i intentionally ask you; i value the opinions of uneducated/uninvested more. It can be useful! And i do not regard it as metaphysics or as philosophy. As something you can just talk about, without thinking about how to ever put it into a category
>>7931754
you could find me at the beg thread 2-4 weeks ago
"for all this talk about billionaired id like to see their richness"
"for all the talk about saints id like to see their own list of sins"
"for all the talk about desires i would like to see what they actually made of them, to prove that they are worthy of stating them here as something useful"
this is the loser's den. I am a looser, you are a looser, we all are loosers here. having any goal of pride or confidence just leads towards things that will never be fitting for 4chan. No proof of our qualities will be fitting for now.
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This is one of the worst threads I've read in a while, from the awful first post to the dunning-kruger "it's not that impressive" posts, to the schizobabble word salads. Actual garbage and it's not even OP's fault surprisingly
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>>7930958
>beg just started
>thinks this is 3-4 years
artists improve quickly but youve got some misconceptions, getting to the level op posted of just understanding how to properly express form via good hatching would take at minimum 5-7+ years
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>>7931793
>schizobabble word salads
That's what isolation and drugs will do to a person. This is why you guys can't do it alone, reject anonimity and actually touch grass. Other people are there to guide you away from being a retard on an image board who thinks it's 'easy' to produce such well done work and life experience will show you the value of this story. You can go Fast alone, but Further together.
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Man, I just don't care for Miura's style at all, and I feel like a crazy person for thinking so. It's the same problem I have with that Bernie Wrightson pic that always gets posted, where everything is rendered into a general grey sludge, and it reads more like you're looking at a dense wall of hatching than a picture made up of lines. It feels absurd to me to put such pained efforts into creating something that doesn't even hit the eye right in the end.
Have some taste and spare yourself the suffering. You literally don't have to kill yourself to make something compelling.
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>>7929901
Reach what retard? Being able to cross hatch? Might take you like 2 years but aside from that there's nothing out of arm's reach for most /beg/s here
There's 0 flow to the page, nothing to rest your eye on, just randomly arranged forms patched up with cross hatching to distract you from fact of how disgusting this page is composition-wise, it's all just mechanical display of meaningless drawings without any order to the chaos
No color aswell so you literally just have to grasp light reflections and hatch away lol
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>>7931900
This. No wonder that Takehiko Inoue burned out, considering how overly detailed Vagabond was drawn.
I think artists like this don't even really care about expressing themselves. They just mainly want to impress the viewer.
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>>7931502
>no, being blind is safer
the schizo is an ego creature, their only interest is to further their own warped perception of themselves as messianic figures, they do not care for any sorta logic, consistency or good faith argumentation, they work purely with the assumption that anything they think is inherently correct by virtue of being thought up by them and anything they didn't think about is "evil" in some form or another because engaging with it threatens their own identity
basically kill yourself, retard
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>>7936636
nta this is how my eyes went across this panel, i didn't notice the right one until way later
i also do think it looks quite busy and very complex
i mean if he enjoys it, whatever, but it just seems like slavery work to sit there and render each individual hatching line
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>>7934329
You know nothing of composition and most likely just parroting what you hear from ytube videos. If you picked any other Big page I would be incline to agree because Miura had a tendency to value detail over composition.
>There's 0 flow to the page
All of the monsters are looking at guts who is a darker value, most complex shape and the Focal point- who's cape flows into the next panel
>nothing to rest your eye on
This doesn't mean blank space you fool of a Took, you rest your eye at the lightest point of the page which has tons of simplistic tubes (that brings you back to guts)
>just randomly arranged forms patched up with cross hatching
Tell me you're a beg without telling me you're a beg , there's barely any cross hatching on the page and where there is it makes sense to convey form (i.e the roundness of some sphere- like forms)
this is actually very well done for Miura, look at the corners of the panel and how he keeps you in it most everything points directly back to guts.
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>>7936928
>That's like saying a map is good because you already know how to get where you're going.
No, you are holding the map upside down and judging it to be useless. Worse still, you know how you should hold it but refuse to for some obscure reason.
It's very weird for you to pretend that the context a piece was created in should not feed into your judgment as to how well it performed in that context. Do you judge Orthodox icons negatively for employing inverse perspective? Do you condemn the Roman mannerists for failing to capture reality? Do you decry optical illusions as having failed to deceive you when you view them from off angles?
When observed in its intended context (starting from upper right) the composition does flow. I do agree with you that it does not flow with the specificity that anon's original red line demonstrated. It is certainly not random however.
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>>7937558
It's not magic, it's how you naturally perceive the composition when viewing it in the mode of a manga. Stripped of all other preceding context besides the proper viewing order it is still clear. Allow me to explain.
The first panel is a bird's eye view of the protagonist and sidekick staring up at something you cannot see. The viewer asks; what they are they seeing? The second panel answers that question by switching to a worm's eye view from behind the protagonist, revealing a swarm of monsters. More than that however, these swarm of monsters are blocking the view of something even larger in the background. That something is alien, alive, and vibrant to an extent that it literally serves as the light source for the composition.
By taking in only these visual cues you are able to infer that the protagonist has his aim set on a giant beast that is being guarded by an infantry of deep sea monsters. He is Jonah in the belly of the whale, or perhaps in this instance in the belly of Leviathan. As for the sword being aimed down? Strictly speaking it serves not to obscure half the image. You can also infer by its size that it's far too heavy to be wielded effortlessly and the protagonist may be exhausted after having slain however many beasts prior (as indicated by the caked blood on the sword's edge.)
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>>7937588
I don't know what DK means, but I think the problem you two are running into is that you're both under the impression that value shifts leading the eye makes good composition. That much is true; where you are erring is taking that as an absolutism. It is one of many different modes of evaluating a composition. Comics are not made to be standalone showpieces; their primary function and how they should be viewed is in the context of how it conveys the story it is telling.
Kentaro Miura was not Craig Mullins. His job was not to design compositions that demonstrate scale or motion through sweeping value gradients. His job was to tell a story primarily through imagery. You are told that story sufficiently in this composition.
How would you two evaluate the composition of a Rothko? You clearly cannot evaluate its merits based on value shift directing the viewer's gaze. You cannot even evaluate a Rothko without seeing it in person, the sheer size of these compositions lending to the atmosphere they create. I myself have seen them in person and didn't enjoy them, but I had to view them in the proper context to be sure of my evaluation.
You're not seeing the forest for the trees here.
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>>7936636
>>7937558
>i am silly
What is your problem? My line was how my eyes read that page. It started in the top right, because I'm reading a manga, a followed the values down and left, toward the next panel, then up toward the face of character, then down the descending chain of monsters. There was nothing arbitrary about it. The elements of the drawing were evidently carefully arranged to take in all the important elements while maintaining a top-right-to-bottom-left flow.
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>>7938079
>>7938100
It doesn't look good for you guys to go to the effort of starting to make a point and then abandoning it at the first sign of push back. It makes you look less interested in offering critique and more invested in disparaging artists like Miura who are probably more proficient than you or I. It's unbecoming.
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>>7938160
>no you don't understand you MUST debate the retarded weeb or your comportment le unbecoming
The point has been made, you being too low IQ to comprehend it is not my problem lmao back to your containment thread
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>>7936668
We get it retard you're easily impressed and even more easily amused so I'll make this easy for you, picrel has more flow than that miuraslop, have fun!
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>>7939855
That's fantastic as well, they're not in the same category at all... Hating on Miura just because so many people like him doesn't make you superior, it just makes you a contrarian.
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>>7931075
>condemns something as evil
>refuses to elaborate
>invokes a vague " internal origin"
>internal origin of what is improved by looking or feeling good
???
>>7931095
goddamn, Nietzsche really was right.
Also makes me realize that progressivism is just Christanity mephedrone for the pseudoreligious and ignorant.