>>98020709
Of those, I'd probably suggest Icons for a newer group. It's relatively simple and rules light, and should be easier to work with compared to some of the other systems. It only really needs you and the players to have a loose idea of a character's overall power and skillset.

>>98020709
Prowlers & Paragons is piss easy to pick up and run, I suggest that

>>98020709
>M&M
Extremely gamey d20 shit that breaks instantly, would not recommend to new players
>Icons
PBTA dogshit, would not recommend to anyone
>Sentinels
Relatively ruleslight, requires a bit of balancing and GM adjudicating in-game
Would recommend that, but warn everyone that shit has to be nerfed as you go by necessity
>ascendant
redundantly overcomplicated for what it is
bad for new players as-is, maybe give it a spin on the side to see how it goes
>champions
This one is some next-level autism (If it's the one I think it is)
don't play this one without significant experience under your belt

>>98020772
Looking at it atm.
>>98020807
Any other suggestions? Have you tried Prowlers and Paragons?

>>98020750
This one feels more like a teenage drama system with a superhero backdrop. Sorta like Teen Titans or early Invincible?

>>98020853
>Sorta like Teen Titans or early Invincible?
its 2003 teen titans and the first 20 or so issued of new teen titans to a T

>>98020709
>>98020849
If you want rules-lite or easy, I'd go for Truth and Justice. Literally just 2d6+trait, and your total traits are also how much damage you can take.

>>98020709
ova? If you're an experienced GM you can have the characters made in an hour even for newbies, and its not hard to understand more dice = more betterer.

File: Hemorage 2.jpg (98.0 KB)

>>98020709
I recommend M&M, it's easy to learn and easy to play

I'd check out Wild Talents if I were you, it doesn't get enough love

My best capeshit experiences were with TSR Marvel Heroes, or play by post with a homebrew D20.

>>98021193
I dont suppose anyones ever come around to making a modernized version of marvel TSR?

>>98021224
Several, look for FASERIP based systems.

>>98020709
The first thing I see is a game called "Hero World" which is a faserip retro clone.

>>98021232
>>98021241
found a PDF of hero world
maybe I will build my character in there and see what its like
I was intending to use marvel multiverse, but it isn't hard to make the same character for different systems

>>98021374
I found Marvel/FASERIP's strengths were in balancing play between street-level and cosmic characters, settling arguments over feats characters performed in the comics, and had a reward/penalty system to keep characters in character, and encourage roleplaying.

>>98020709
I really like Sentinel Comics. Very cool.

NOT to be confused with Sentinels.

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>>98020709
Different systems support different styles of game, all you said was new to rpg, something with less of a learning curve might be good: Marvel Super Heroes 1998 by TSR.

It's simple enough to pick up quickly, not so simple as a kid's rpg you'd quickly grow beyond. Custom characters are fast to create. Easy to run a campaign in too. Like comics, death is rare. That may be the biggest factor.

Unlike some games where Superman would wipe the floor with Hawkman, the party can have PCs at different power levels, like Hawk-Eye/Punisher with Cyclops/Spider-Man and Hulk/Phoenix at the same time. Different power levels aren't to everyone's taste but it works well here and a GM can introduce an omega level threat and have it feel omega level too.

One of the coolest parts is the card based action resolution. Ability + cards >= difficulty number. You play one card then replace. If the card you just played <= your edge score, you can play another. If you finish with a trump card (suit matches ability) you turn over the top deck card and add that too. Someone like Captain America has an edge of 4 which usually means several cards played, most heroes have edge 2. Some skills, like Cap's shield skill, are autotrump.

GM doesn't usually play cards to attack PCs. He sets the difficulty then PCs have to resist by passing a normal challenge, maybe dodge a missile, raise force field, shoot it down.

GM does draw and turn over a card every round. This can heal heroes or villains, as well as add a complication if the GM wants. It can be for story purpose or add to the current challenge. The rule book example card is Power Surge. When it's time for Electro to attack the GM says this doubles the attack, which backfires as they only person hit is Rhino.

The exception to GM not playing cards is Doom cards. When you play a Doom suit card it adds to your score like normal but instead of being discarded it goes to the DM pool. He can play these at any time to screw you over.

We settled on Prowlers and Paragons, though I'm having trouble sourcing the GM screen. D6 dice pools seem like an easy enough mechanic for us.

File: 3f4800c8f0b9388320abe2b687c8a542_original.png (1.3 MB)

>>98020709
If you want old school superheroes MSH is okay but DC Heroes is better, even though I liked Marvel comics more as a kid. It's the same age as MSH but takes a bit more of the then traditional approach to games, unlike MSH's fairly novel colour chart, without being super complicated.

Cross reference your relevant action stat with the opponent's to get your target number. If you roll high enough you can slide your finger one or columns to the right for shifts.

Then cross reference your effect stat with target's resist stat on the results table, no rolling. Every shift you made before now gives you a shift for a bigger result. Result could be anywhere from a target has high resistance No Effect to a you have high effect stat so you punch through a chest faster than nerves can trigger.

Despite this, the system does an even better job than MSH at balancing cosmic vs street level characters. Everything in the game is based on Attribute Points (AP) starting from a base of 0 and going up exponentially from there. 1 AP is double 0 AP, 2 AP is double 1 AP. The maths isn't complicated and it lets Batman stand up a little bit to Darkseid. It's actually very elegant. Because it's like exponents you don't multiply numbers you add the AP, and you don't divide you subtract which is easier.

It's written pre-Crisis so you get some beautiful old school heroes, plenty of powers. You can make your own characters, and that's where its biggest fault lies. Character creation is points buy and that can really feel like you don't have enough points.

Some people also don't like that hero points, like fate points in other games, are either spent in a game session for instant bonuses that you might need to avoid dying, but are the same thing you use to advance your character and you don't get that many. It can take a long time to promote your character.

>>98021823
I started so I finished. Good choice. P&P is a solid system. Hope you and your friends enjoy playing.

>>98021580
i really need new art for my character, you are all probably sick of seeing her

the ninja archetype was already neatly laid out with all the basics, just need to fit in swinging and wall crawling for ninja grappling hook and hand spikes
>agility is obviously the highest stat
>strength and reason at the lowest, barely stronger than an average teenage girl and is as vapid as your typical valley girl
>specialty in martial arts, top of her class in ninja school

>>98020709
prowlers, no contest

>>98021823
what do you mean sourcing? it's a sheet of cardboard with two folds.

>>98023778
As in I can't find it for free anywhere , I checked the usual places.

>>98023797
Most GM screens aren't worth it anyway. I always make my own system cheat-sheets and find that the act of curating the info and copying it down helps me to remember it better anyway

>>98020709
check FASERIP, based on old Marvel Superhero RPG

>>98023797
you can't find a sheet of cardboard?

>>98020709
I'd recommend Prowlers and Paragons. Easy to make characters for, automated google sheets exist, good suite of powers, flaws, and pros, simple gameplay that's easy to understand, good time.

my idea for totally-not-the-vision
>three laws compliant robot
>reaches the same endpoint as asimovs laws, the use of loopholes to ensure a rule 0 protection of mankind
>but instead of deducing that means enslaving mankind for its own protection, its conclusion is that it must be a superhero to protect mankind
>law zero override is only used to non-lethally apprehend villains
>an excuse to expodump ethics 101 lessons and namedrop kant, rosseau, and hobbes in casual conversation, under the excuse that its a learning robot that wants to expand its limiting definition of goodness imposed by the three laws

Dreadful.

File: spider quips 2.jpg (185.5 KB)

at one point should the enemy be outright damaged by sick burns and quips?

>>98026084
Marvel Heroic Roleplaying actually has separate tracks for Physical, Mental, and Emotional stress, so quipping is a completely valid strategy (and Spidey even has a trait that makes him better than most at it).

>>98026084
when you buy a power to represent that effect, obviously.

>>98020709
I used to love playing Champions 5th ed (no idea what they're up to now)
Its very crunchy at the character creation level, and requires that the DM puts his foot down if anyone tries to make broken shit which is easy to do, but once the characters are made the gameplay isn't that complex

>>98026084
Truth and Justice has that by default. Any sort of social trait can be used to apply failure ranks to someone mid-fight, which functions similarly to (and basically stacks with) standard damage. Even if someone is indestructible, you can still win a fight by insulting them so much they get pissed and ruin their own plan, making emotional appeals that convince them to stop, or whatever else makes sense for the moment.

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>>98020709
Hey, I asked in a previous thread but no one replied, what random generators work best for coming up with ideas for supers/their powers when you're stuck? I've found some, does anyone have others, especially if you think that they work better than than the ones I've listed below, or at least advice on how to best use them in your experience, please? If you use other methods for when you’re stuck, what are they?

>https://chaosgachaweb.onrender.com
>https://www.rangen.co.uk/chars/powergen.php
>https://randompowergenerator.com
>https://www.randomlists.com/superpowers
>https://powerlisting.fandom.com/f/p/4400000000000070100/r/4400000000000271221

>>98020709
What's the best option for solo play?
something with pre-made villains and rules-light

>>98027541
What's wrong with the ones you have?

Managed to get my hands on the GM screen. Was considering maybe trying to make an audio drama based on the setting, could explain more if you guys are into hearing about it, since it's not quite standard Earth stuff going on

wait does this guy think you need to BUY a gm screen? holy shit lol

>>98027541
do you want just random powers, or a random superhuman framework?

File: fantastic 4 annhilus.png (273.1 KB)

interdimensional or extrasolar threats?

>>98030738
Try a complete sentence.

>>98030806
it technically qualifies as a complete sentence since there is a complete idea: A or B?

No, it doesn't. There is verb and no object, and no idea is being expressed. Don't reply again.

>>98027998
Nothing wrong with more options, or ways to come up with ideas when stuck, right?

>>98030112
Either works!

>>98030738
I feel like interdimensional is easier to use, because its an excuse to have them show up wherever you want them and its easier to "end" (the dimensional wall is fixed/portal is closed/demons are banished etc)

>>98030835
>There is verb and no object
you can have a sentence in a single word like "stop", since it conveys a communicable idea
"A or B" is a complete sentence because any rational person can interpret the meaning of preferring A or B

STOP ARGUING. FINAL WARNING.

>>98030838
>the dimensional wall is fixed/portal is closed/demons are banished etc
darkseid actually fits the interdimensional threat more closely than your typical alien invasion, since he arrives via boom tubes
so he enters and arrives via portals and the means of transportation is a small box that you can steal or destroy and you can beat darkseid by forcing him through a boom tube portal

apokolopis does have a space navy, but they rarely use it to invade anyone other than new genesis

>>98030836
>Either works!
the champions 5th ed genre book had a random superhuman generator that built a 350 point character
not necessarily a well balanced one but fine for a random dude in a costume

>>98030835
>no object therefore not a sentence
Could you be more wrong? Objects are optional, which is why there were none in the previous sentence.

>>98030830
>it technically qualifies as a complete sentence
No, it does not technically quality as a complete sentence because it is not a sentence. It technically qualifies as a noun phrase, because that it is what it is.

>there is a complete idea
No, there is not a complete idea there. If there were a complete idea it would be far harder for me to speculate upon what was being inquired after as that phrase could terminate various sentences starting,
>Which is more dangerous
>How does one deal with
>What are examples of
>Who has heard of
>When did you use

>>98031633
So, interdimensional or extrasolar?
Surely you arent so autistic that you couldn't answer that without prompting for more information

File: 1526767397502.jpg (1.8 MB)

What kinds of supervillain organizations have you guys made for your games? Do you just use things like not!HYDRA, or do you make original gangs?

>>98031661
Extrasolar if the fight gets taken back to them.
Interdimensional if you just want to beat them a few times and have them be gone long term.
>>98031741
I haven't started my game yet, but I'm thinking of making a cult that used to worship Cthulhu before he got destroyed. Their new goal is to feast upon his remains and gain demigod tier powers

>>98031741
I ran a knockoff Hydra but magic once which was ok
mostly I liked cobbling together random b-tier villains into teams though, that was always good for a session

>>98031741
>Do you just use things like not!HYDRA, or do you make original gangs?
usually the HYDRA-equivalent will be a campaign-length villain, involving multiple fights with multiple supervillains and probably some kind of city-level threat
random villain team ups for shorter sessions

>>98031661
I wasn't going to answer anyway since I'm only here for the grammar lessons and the basket weaving.

>>98031633
Objects are not optional, retard.

>>98031661
What are you asking?

>>98020807
>This one is some next-level autism (If it's the one I think it is)
It is, I love it.
>don't play this one without significant experience under your belt
I've run champions for people who have been playing TTRPGs for longer than I've been alive, and every combat they just roll their 3d6 and look at me like we're reading bones.

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>>98020709
How heritable do you prefer powers to be and why?

Also, are any of the major superheroes in your setting parents, and how do they balance parenthood, be they mothers or fathers, with superhero work?

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>>98020709
What advice do you have for creating an original supers setting? Especially one where powers are relatively new.

>>98035232
Don't be afraid to come up with weird explanations for it. It doesn't need to be super realistic shit, but keep the internal logic consistent.
World governments and other sorts of big power players would probably go apeshit upon discovering that superheroes are becoming a thing

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>>98032706
each player can decide where their powers come from, some are inherited and some aren't

>>98035289
>World governments and other sorts of big power players would probably go apeshit upon discovering that superheroes are becoming a thing
I prefer a mostly hands off government, since having to deal with G-men telling me to let school children die in a bus crash because they dont trust superheroes detracts from fighting super villains

The only time the government should really interfere with the players is if they are unveiling their own government sponsored superhero or they are making top secret experiments that lead to supervillains

>>98032494
Are you sure?
You shouldn’t be.
You reason badly.
You must improve.
Learn more. Learn better.
This 'discussion' is pointless.
I am right and you are wrong.
Hush now, child; the adults are busy.

>>98032494
>>98036303
The irony was not lost upon me that you wrote a sentence without an object but I felt like writing a few more sentences in case anyone was taking you seriously.

>>98036303
>>98036323
Ironic.

>>98035863
>>98032706
someone getting their powers from a freak lab accident could lean into the freak loner angle, since no one could really ever have the same exact accident they had
whereas someone who has magical powers coming from a magical lineage leans more into the familial aspect, since they inherit people who can understand and relate to their gift but also whatever obligations come with that power

File: Iron man 3 HISHE.jpg (50.9 KB)

>virgin comic book inspiration
>chad toys and merchandise inspiration

File: 90279_05_Logos-1.jpg (1.5 MB)

>>98037802
>toy-based superheroes
Make way for the king

>>98037894
would your characters accept a toy deal based on their likeness?
is that even ethical?

>>98038013
That's a common gag in superhero stories and I don't even know how they would sign contracts or where the company would send them royalties
I presume they're mostly bootlegs the hero has no say in

>>98038372
imagine getting your checks with your superhero name on it and signing with your superhero name
that would be every kids dream

File: IQ of a guacamole.png (745.6 KB)

>>98038738

>>98038894
you would think the guardians would have magicked up 1000000 dollars for hal so he could superhero full time

>>98020709
Mutants and masterminds can run almost anything, but does need some dm oversight to prevent broken combos and make sure the players know how to make what they want.

I would really recommend destined. It is a bit crunchy, but it can do almost anything fairly well.

>>98031741
I had a secret society group that somehow developed multiverse capabilities. They exist and vary widely between different universes, so they have varying level of competency and skills. They are mostly united, but suffer from immense bureaucracy for reasons unknown. They horde and gather any interesting tech, magical artifacts, or other strange things.

File: getaclue.jpg (414.8 KB)

>>98041210
Sounds cool. Reminds me of Skaven if they had multiverse travel.

I've been thinking about planning out a full Secret Society of Super Villains like DC has. And I'm trying to make it more organized instead of evil guys hanging out that occasionally ambush the good guys. My thoughts so far is like this. A functioning hidden empire should have: Governments. Armies. Religions. Economies. Propaganda. Laboratories. Intelligence agencies. Magical infrastructure. Succession systems. And then they’d need elite/special units like leadership bodyguards, anti-superhuman strike force, enhanced undead soldiers, espionage agents, hero-tracking assassins, propaganda and indoctrination, heavy infantry, reality-threatening emergency team, Maritime smuggling navy, and good ol’ monsters.

>>98042231
>And I'm trying to make it more organized instead of evil guys hanging out that occasionally ambush the good guys
that was the purpose behind the second secret society in JLU
where the expanded justice league was so powerful that it threatened supervillainy as a whole, so gorilla grodd created a secret society that organized and equipped all the supervillains to counteract them
and the inherently secretive nature of supervillains meant that the league werent even aware of them for half the series

of course, their downfall comes from supervillains being quick to want to grab power
and while grodd tried to instill some level of camaraderie amongst the secret society, lex luthor didnt believe in such trivial things and was planning a coup from basically day 1

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>>98042239
Which villain(s) could lead an organization like that competently without it turning into civil war? To try and stop the chaos before it starts, what villain(s) should be permanently black listed because of ego, insanity, or whatever?

>>98042262
>what villain(s) should be permanently black listed because of ego
good: made men, who are loyal to the (evil) family
average: in it to settle a score with a specific hero or organization
okay, but unreliable: in it for the money
avoid: desires power, desires status, villains of desperation
blacklisted: wants to destroy the world instead of conquer it

>>98038013
in a setting where a hero or hero team can have official relationships with authorities I dont see why not, especially if the proceeds go into charities or at least funding the team

>>98020807
>>M&M
>Extremely gamey d20 shit that breaks instantly, would not recommend to new players
Anybody care to elaborate on this? I have a passing familiarity with the system after reading it and it didn't seem obviously broken (any more than a supers RPG usually is)

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>>98042648
>celebrity superhero wonders why his licensed action figure isnt making him popular among the other supers

File: SWADE.png (1.7 MB)

I've been looking at Savage Worlds and the Super Powers Companion for supers games. Anyone got opinions on Savage Worlds?

>>98046623
Savage Worlds isn't my favourite system but it's alright. Haven't played Supers with it but I can see it working. Worst thing IMHO about the system is that Bennies are a terrible name that you feel stupid saying out loud.

>>98020709
How do your heroes support themselves? Even heroes need to eat after all.

>>98048678
OnlyFans (under false identity), which has bigger following than his "official" social media account.

>>98048678
>the team is avengers or justice league tier
they get a stipend from the team that covers basic costs

otherwise they have a day job like superman or flash

>>98047473
yeah, ngl, there's some stuff about Savage Worlds that I don't like at all either. what do you think about Outgunned?

>>98052015
>Outgunned
Never played it. My go-tos at the moment for supers are Prowlers & Paragons or Marvel Heroic, but if someone else was running a SWADE or Outgunned game I'd probably give it a go

>>98045993
I like it when they complain about the inaccuracies in their merch

>>98052401
a low-stakes adventure for a party could be simply trying to track down why their toys suck so much

>party secures a deal to have merch made of them to buy a new hall of justice
>the toys come out poorly
>the team track down the cause of it, because its ruining their street cred
>its some D-list villain trying to defame the players with bad merch

>>98020709
Since nobody mentioned it, the Valiant Universe RPG is a easy pick.
There are a couple of quickstarts as a low-effort entry and you can get your universe as big as you want.
Personally, I don't like the way it pools dice (too much of a GM/players fiat), but I haven't played it, so it's not a firm opinion.
Easy to pick, learn and play, and if you like it, you could devote time to learn the whole system.

>>98053343
today i learned there are 51 flavors of superhero RPGs and no one can agree on which one to use

File: superman justice jogger.jpg (63.9 KB)

every hero needs a toyetic form of transportation

>>98058547
Why would he need that? He can fly! A spaceship or something I could see. And why is that besides marketing, BTW?

>>98058547
>>98061780
This stuff annoyed me as a kid, it wasn't accurate or something they'll use
And then I saw Japanese Spider-man ride a motorcycle and a giant robot

>>98046623
I enjoy the system but haven't used it for Supers. I could see how the power scaling of enemies would would well for it, though.

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>>98020709
>Superhero TTRPGs
Heroic the Role-Playing Game by ZEG Media is a pretty cool Marvel Superheroes inspired simulacrum.
There's also an atcost fantasy version available thats pretty rules light and fast paced.
Heroic's main hurdle seems to stem from a problem with artist drama, which seems to have held up the print release. Though you can get the rules & text complete version for cheap.
The guy also has a YT channel called Bear the Gen-X GM with regular livestreams of mechanics and gameplay.
https://youtu.be/xB06rippOuY?t=1144
https://www.youtube.com/@bearthegenxgm

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>>98061780
>>98061785

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>>98020709
After the big titles like Marvel and DC, where do you look for supers setting, character, and/or campaign ideas? And what systems would you use for those properties?

How the fuck do you come up with a good superhero name?

I'm running Mutants & Masterminds, and I'm specifically running published adventures. I like the system, but there are two things that are bothering me. For one, all of the adventures seem to just be supervillain teams without much motivation or explanation. It's literally just a team for players to fight. You figured there'd be other types of encounters occasionally.

The other thing, that's far worse, is that there aren't descriptions or pictures of many of the villains they use. That's okay in a medieval fantasy game, where you're just fighting default enemies. But if I'm fighting a specific guy, and that guy has potential to be a recurring villain, I deserve to know what they're suppose to look like.

>>98066052
when in doubt, use noun-man or color-noun
just look around your room for some inspiration
not terribly original, of course, but if all your characters are pastiches then its part of the charm

>>98065061
some systems have good sourcebooks that give you tons of material to adapt. I remember spending all day reading through a bunch of the 5th ed champions books as a kid
I also regret the amount of time in my life I sunk into city of heroes/villains

>>98066052
steal one from transformers, they've got tons of great names on random characters

>>98066052
Skill issue

>>98065061
I still shit from tokustatsu, it's the same genre

>>98052442
Stealing this, thank you. Probably making a Toyman-esque villain who can control toys in some manner.

>>98066675
toy-based characters could probably mimic the different eras of toy fads, the same way you have different decades of superheroes

pre-WW2: every toy from the christmas aisle, drums, nutcrackers, roller skates, dolls, toy soldiers
>boomers: dress up dolls like barbie and GI joe, every feature in a single package toy
>gen-X: collect-em-all toys like 80s relaunch GI joe, MLP, he-man with sci-fi and fantasy themeing
>gen-Y: "These arent toys, these are collectibles from grown ups, i call myself the toymaker ironically, now face the wrath of my mint condition star trek phaser"

>>98046623
I just finished running Breakout! for Nessisary Evils and I liked it for supers games. I think the NE setting is fun and how they modified the powers rules for superpowers works similarly to how most point buy super power systems work. The one thing to look out for with it is the powerlevels get a bit silly compared to how the system normally works, but that feels understandable for superhero settings.

>>98066628
>still
Fuck, you know what I meant

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>>98065061
Like >>98066628 I steal from toku. I also do the typical time travel plots (WW2, 60s, industrial revolution, capital city of an ancient culture, etc.) to shake things up.
Time travel is great in a super universe because you don't even need to come up with "super" enemies for the PCs to fight since the adventure just be getting home without changing the past too much. If the heroes do change something, or leave behind anything, then you can continue that plot thread until the party gets bored or wait a few months and work it into the current plot.
>some very stern looking men in suits are banging on the hideout's door, shouting out your secret identities while demanding to be let in
>it turns out that your selfie at the pyramids was discovered by archaeologists back in the 1800s and a cult/government/agency has been spying on the team since your debut while waiting until they were ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that you've gone to the past (to not cause a paradox) before dragging you in for answers

File: IMG_6914.jpg (3.5 MB)

How about Heroclix?

>>98068289
I miss Heroclix and MageKnight so much bros. :(

>>98020709
> Ascendant
Never got into it. Won't comment. I think the publisher is supposed to be an UnPerson in some circles or something.
> M&M 3ed
Awesome toolset to make characters in, but actual play is a slog as the game emphasizes comic book emulation over playing a game.
>Sentinels of the Multiverse
tries to be very beginner friendly, but I found it kind of dull. Encourages characters to slowly power-up through a scene (Super-Man can't use his full power until he's been beat up a bit), and mechanically there's no difference between Intangibility and Super Strength and Super Reflexes as they're just different descriptors for you to base your dice rolls around (which is interesting on a meta level perhaps, but not my cuppa' for play).
>Icons
Pretty simple. Not bad per se, but almost a "baby's first ArePeeGee" kind of experience.
>Champions
The good news is you can make anything with it and the system actually works. The bad news is you'll have to spend hours making characters and playing the game. 1980's design mentality for good and bad.

My honest pick:

> Savage Worlds Adventure Edition Supers Companion
You'll need a copy of the SWADE core rules, and the companion book, but it exists in a bit of a sweet spot between the speed and flexibility of M&M and the tactical playability of Champions. It'd be perfect if the system wasn't quite so swingy and a few more powers had been added. But as an intro to TTRPGs, the underlying Savage Worlds system walks a line between "not too complex and not too simple", while conveying the tactile thrill of rolling lots of difference funny dice.

>>98030836
M&M 3 Deluxe Heroes Handbook has a super fun random generator built in. Honestly, it's provided me more fun than the game itself.

Heroes Unlimited, with the Powers Unlimited books, should provide everything you'd want in a super hero game randomizer set. It's spread across a lot of books though. And Heroes Unlimited itself kind of sucks.

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>>98068491
They still releases stuff.

>>98066969
This is very important. Which edition of the game and which edition of the setting did you run?

>>98071117
SWADE, as far as I understand SWADE's updates are generally solid compared to older edtions though I will give you I think the older NE books were better than the SWADE port but you can just go back to grab any details or images from them that you need.

>>98071631
Kk, thanks. I've been debating pickup SWADE for a while. I have SWEE/Savage Worlds Deluxe, as well as the superpower companion for that edition.

How complete are the powers offered in the SWADE version?

>>98071649
I would recommend picking up or finding SWADE, Explorer edition will be similar but SWADE cleans some things up IIRC. Glancing at the older book the powers list seems about the same which makes sense, I like the formatting in the SWADE book better for readability though.

>>98069834
That looks so soulless...

>>98072199
My Marvel United minis may be gray (and red and purple and other shades of red/purple), but they at least look like they were trying to give some of them some dynamism!

>>98072199
whats the problem?
they look show accurate

>>98071649
SWADE's Super Companion is better than previous editions, and it feels like they were drawing some inspiration from M&M3ed and with things like rules for power stunts and the like.

That said, I find that RAW it has a lot of gaps in the system. Want to make a character whose knack is having tons of different Skills and Edges as needed? Want to make a character whose gimmick is they can't be hurt or altered? Want to make a character who's just super lucky? Want to make a character who never tires (i.e. gets Fatigued)? You can do that all in SWADE, but expect to massage the system a bit.

That said, everything I just described -is- pretty easy to massage into the system. It's just that you -will- run into character ideas that RAW aren't supported.

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>>98073640
It's not that they're inaccurate. It's that they're basically just standing around. Even the more dynamic poses aren't that exciting.

Compare those poses with these (ignore the paint job and chibi style if it triggers you).

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>>98072199
I think they look ok. The painting is just shit. But as a mini they are rather cheap.

>>98066628
due to iron man tokon being a small gundam, i got the idea for a japanese iron man that takes it up to 11

>iron man armor that can dock with and enhance itself with G-fighter style support craft to enter bomber and tank modes
>capable of entering orbit and space travel by entering wave rider mode
>hulkbuster is a mobile fortress that the iron man armor can enter like the dendrobium
>becomes full-armor iron man in the second to the last issue, that solves the limited operational time of his artifical heart with a massive backpack sized power source, and additional armor plating to protect it

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>>98073640
>whats the problem?
You're kidding right?
Looking at just the X-Men in the more than $200 box set, not the Prime Sentinel doing the Neo impression who's from the regular blind boxes, most of whom are just standing including one guy (Leech) in the extremely dynamic "looking like a wannabe emo standing still with hands inside pockets of hoodie" pose.
Beast is standing up with his finger raised like he's about to announce he had an idea
Nightcrawler is standing like he's about to raise his hand in a Vulcan salute
Storm is standing like she's looking in a mirror.
Wolverine is strolling to the fridge to get a beer.
Cyclops is standing like he's about to go full Musk nazi salute.
Jean Grey is standing adjusting her fringe.
Rogue is standing like she's about to sit manspread on a couch though the grim look on her face says that maybe she's constipated and about to sit on a porcelain throne.
Bishop is ... ... ... standing. (He's flexing his right arm. Not in a cool Schwarzenegger vs Weathers way, just sort of bent.)
The most active pose is Forge and even then he's standing like he's warming up for jazzercise when he just saw his chief rival for the instructor's affections walk in to class.
How many times did I have to describe them as "standing"?
But do you know the best thing about that set?
That speech bubble by Cyclops, it's copied from a Professor X model, it's not drawn on for the advertising picture, it's part of the model itself.

>>98047473
I will never understand the butthurt over the word bennies.

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>>98076799
Ok, but isnt this how most minis are done to fit any scenario. You want action-figure statues to look good on the presentation shelf.

File: Hudson City.png (4.0 MB)

>>98020709
Champions has some of the best, most coherent urban settings I've come across in RPGs. Not just superhero related, but in general.

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>>98080238
They are game pieces afterall.

>>98076799
>Beast is standing up with his finger raised like he's about to announce he had an idea
to be fair that is pretty in character

>>98082796
Why does Wolverine only have one set of claws out?

I will always champion

Mayfair Exponential Game System (or MEGS). Or DC_Heroes RPG

It simple fast paced, with the potential for things like Green Arrow to take on a High level threat, but Green Arrow will only really have one shot so if they roll poorly, or get beaten before they can spend their limited pool of resources they go down. But the systems use of explosive dice, does let a weaker level character have a chance against a high level threat, if only a small one. Anybody can be taken down do to explosive dice, into explosive dice, into explosive dice.

It the most comic book like superhero system I have tried because of that.

>>98035232
Anything and everything Superhero setting work best when their no one thing that limits powers, just look at worm for proof

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>>98083369
He is a right-hander and tactical waiting.

>>98082845
That is a very good point.

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>>98027541
>what random generators work best for coming up with ideas for supers/their powers when you're stuck?

me, I am the best generator.

what would you like?

>>98042231
I styled them after an evil men in black esque org that also deals with the supernatural. It was kind of meant to justify whatever weird or out there thing I wanted to include for certain adventures.

Has anyone ever played BASH?
Some old threads on the internet have recommended it.

Has anyone tried Masks? I think I'm joining a game of it soon. Looks like it's pretty much all class based RP from the rulebook

>>98083385
>>98035232
first contact with meta-humans is probably one of the most well-worn settings

>>98073636
huh? where do you see dynamism?

>>98080238
no, that's not what I want.

>>98020709
I personally prefer M&M as a good balance of being able to do everything without being too complicated for players to learn; the biggest hurdle is building a character. For more rules light, Capes, Cowls, and Villains Foul, works well and leans more into emulating comics. If you want something extra crunchy, Hero System is good.

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>>98092170
Ok, you want cool looking minis than boardgame pieces.

>>98093736
no, obviously. why do you think you have any ability to determine what people want without asking them? you're certainly not intelligent enough.

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>>98095320
But i asked in
>>98073640
Just guessing what you expect or seek.

>>98091759
masks work fine if you just want to re-create the vibe of a TV show episode, which is rather explicitly what it was designed to do

>>98095577
right, and you said "you want figures to look good on a shelf".

how do you know that's something he wants? you don't. so why did you lie?

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>>98098888
Because thats what he described and thats what i guessed from it.

>>98099652
No it isn't.

>>98076533
gerwalk iron man

>>98073679
>tactical rocks
NOOOOOOO

>>98020709
Prowlers and Paragons, ez

>>98101781
in Superman Returns, Superman is seen lifting a growing island into space, and at another point is flying so fast people speculate that he is moving at the speed of light. Can Prowlers and Paragons cover characters at that high of a power level?

>>98101807
Yeah

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>>98099846
Ok.

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>>98103764
What cope? He said no, so i accepted that.

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>>98105051
Ok.

>>98048678
>totally independent superhero
they have a day job

>superhero team
the team is an organization that has its own funding, with the members being compensated for their time and effort on the team

and then there are aliens, robots, interdimensional beings, and whatnot who can survive a normal life without needing to be paid
since they can just withdraw to their bastion of aloneness or teleport to asgard
heroes under the employ of a corporation or a government can handwave all their expenses away as being at taxpayers expense or paid for by the company

>>98020709
What are the most important things to remember when creating an original supers setting? Asking for a friend, lol.

>>98111472
Dont be afraid to use existing stuff as inspirations. Just dont be lazy.

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>>98109606
You mean cape!?

Why does that guy keep posting irrelevant pics? Does he know spamming is against the rules?

>>98112292
I see superheroes in a superhero thread. Pics 10 hours apart with at least one post inbetween. I think you got a weird definition of spamming.

>>98112292
It's a fucking imageboard. They're superhero pictures. Fuck off.

>>98111799
cope btw :)

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spider-man should be a gadget hero

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>>98114275
I agree. Sometimes you get this. When he needs to invent something like the somic gun for handling venom. Or this anti-electro suit.

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>>98114631
And we have Blue Bettle 2 for this.

No.

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>>98114085
Ok ;_;

cope :)

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>>98115282
Ok, here have some non miniature things. Is the Heroes system good?

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>>98020709
Are there any powers, besides outright reality warping of course, that you find too broken to deal with? Or at least need to limit significantly, like super speed for example?

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>>98114275
I like the spidey gadgets
but I'd never take away the powers

>>98116613
that's DC Heroes. Just searching for Heroes will likely lead you to anything but that game.

I'm not that anon, but yeah. It's pretty good. There is a recently kickstarted new version of it coming out, or has already come out, or something.

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>>98117992
You are right. Thx.
The Kickstarter seems already backed?

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>>98120350
In the 80s and 90s they produced alot of books. It seems they made so many scenarios to include every DC that existed.

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>>98120357

>>98117182
reality warping and super speed aren't broken in my game

>>98117182
I see what you mean about reality warping and to a lesser extent super speed. I've never had any problem with super speed personally, but I make sure to stick very close to a strict interpretation of whatever rules I am using for it, so that everyone knows what it can do.

For reality warping, I would let backlash handle it. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction in physics, so just make any reality warping powers in your game cause a relatively equal in scale alteration elsewhere in reality. Somethibng small might give the GM the system equivalent of hero points or something like that, or let him just fuck with the PCs in small ways. Big stuff might let the GM make major retcons to stuff about his world that the PCs already know about or experienced, and they'd be the only ones who don't know the new stuff and remember the old stuff.

Just remember, if the PCs have powers that fuck with the universe, the universe can and often will fuck right back.

>>98117182
Honestly it varies depending on the scale of powers in the setting, and how much you want to hand-wave required secondary abilities away

>>98122519
>>98117182
super speed without super-reflexes, or at least with capped reflexes, is way less of a problem to handle
since you can still be jumped without it looking weird

closer to genesis sonic the hedgehog rather than attosecond flash

>>98066675
>>98066939
the 1980s toyman using smaller toys, or even being physically smaller himself, than the 1960s and 70s toyman would be a funny in-joke about how the oil crisis resulted in smaller plastic toys

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>>98122128
>For reality warping, I would let backlash handle it.
Methinks permanent reality warping should be solely in the province of the narrative, thus NPC-only.
PCs get the temporary stuff, as in, reality returns to normal after they're done using their power.
That also removes the need for any "reality displacement".

I'd take a page or dozen from Mage and give players Paradox points if they get too carried away with their power.
Paradox resolves on it's own somehow, be it by fucking with their fucking with reality, or by fucking with them directly, body or mind.
Small or coincidental stuff you could get away with no Paradox incurred, GM's judgement notwithstanding. Anything else is fair game.
Complexity of the change, how well it fits into surrounding, and so on, all can either help or hinder, aka do or don't give Paradox.
It's basically magic, so a little prep can go a long way to smooth things and make reality more accepting of your changes.

I.e. baddies hijacked a high-speed train and PCs are chasing it in a car. One PC tries to fuck with the train he's chasing via reality-warping.
He could just have it "break down", eat the Paradox, and possibly suffer unforeseen consequences, up to the train derailing and killing everyone on board.
Or he could tamper with it's electronics and have the brakes "accidentally" come on long enough for the team to climb on.

Imo, players should be rewarded for being precise, and punished for sloppiness with the use of their power.
Even temporarily, you're still messing with reality itself. And as an ancient wise man once said: he who fucks fire, burns his dick.

>>98124404
reality warping could also be balanced out by more complex tasks requiring far more mental effort to not cause reality to collapse

simply altering probability so that a coin always lands heads up is no big deal but you cant just wish that certain events never happened because the person warping reality still has a normal human brain and cant possibly account for the entire butterfly effect

>>98124412
The butterfly effect is exactly how Paradox would resolve itself.
>you cant just wish that certain events never happened
If it's impermanent, you only make reality "pretend" it didn't happen, and only for so long.
The main draw of temporary warping, aside from balance, is automatically tying all those narrative loose ends.
Though, this creates a question of whether or not the consequences of altered events disappear with the warping.

I.e. PC alters reality to link his bathroom door to one halfway around the world. He then opens and walks through that door.
Where does he end up after he stops using his power, the bathroom, or that other place?

Another way to deal with permanent warping is by limiting it's scope. Another example time:
>car crash kills PC's family
>PC is a reality-warper and NOPEs away that event
>family no longer kill, but that's about it
>the rest of the world still thinks they're dead
>their bank accounts are frozen, their IDs are invalid, and etc.
>even their bodies may or may not still be in the ground
As a result, everyone involved has a major existential crisis and needs counseling after seeing their own dead body.
That's on top of also having to prove to daddy government that they really are the Mr. and Mrs. PCfamily.
Because nothing pisses off the government officials more than having to correct their own documents.

>>98122128
Or it could just be balanced by RAW with no houserules required.

>>98124404
Clueless.

>>98080289
TSR Marvel had a really good supplement for New York, with a huge map.

>>98125417
Duh. But the guy asking the question obviously needs more guidance.

No, just a better game that doesn't have these problems.

>>98126953
What better games are there?

Prowlers and Paragons, obviously. You new or something?

>>98126555
>TSR Marvel
Even if you count the basic and advances faserip based games as one game, there are at least two Marvel superhero rpg.

>>98127935
Then obviously I meant the TSR one.

>>98127935
Saying you obviously meant the TSR one when you already wrote TSR Marvel doesn't help much. What might have helped is if I hadn't omitted "TSR" from my post, though I obviously meant that there are at least two by TSR, the 1984/86 versions and the unconnected 1998 game, all with TSR trade dress even if WOTC had bought TSR before 98.

TSRs brought up a lot and FAZERIP was mentioned early on in the thread

whats the basic rundown of the system and what makes it good?

is a maid based superhero too much of an obvious magical realm?

>catchphrase is "clean up crime"
>primary role is cleaning up battle damage after massive city-block destroying supehero-supervillain battles
>primarily a magic user
>magic mop that allows her to fly (ITS NOT A BROOMSTICK mentioned everytime anyone calls her a witch) and cleans up rubble, debris, and body parts
>mild telekinesis for moving giant pieces of rubble, holding things in the air to serve, and moving evidence without getting fingerprints on it
>can pull bullshit out of thin air using magic, such as sandwiches, tea, hot cocoa, plates, and cups to serve innocent bystanders or wounded heroes in the aftermath
>performs crowd control by telling people very sternly not to approach the scene, like a maid scolding a young boy for entering the kitchen

>>98128641
Nta, but I had no idea this second marvel game by tsr even existed. Weird.

>>98129156
Drop TKing giant rubble and you could get away doing maid stuff with prestidigitation, enchanted flying mop aside.
>primary role is cleaning up battle damage after massive city-block destroying supehero-supervillain battles
Sounds like she's part of the search & rescue teams that work the battleground.
One reason to remove being able to move large rubble is that she'd be doing it all the time, to the expense of her whole maid schtick.
Instead, I suggest her serving food and refreshments to the crews, being largely a support hero at best.

>>98130117
>Drop TKing giant rubble and you could get away doing maid stuff with prestidigitation
I wouldnt dare use a 5e-rip for a superhero game
TSR and MM were mentioned above and sound like they would work

>Sounds like she's part of the search & rescue teams that work the battleground.
that is kinda what I imagined she is part of, a Damage Control type organization mostly in charge of cleaning up after
which would make any adventure involving fighting a super villain outside her pay grade

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>>98129156
>magic flying mop
Fuck that lame-ass shit. Give her a skateboard

>>98132057
>I wouldnt dare use a 5e-rip for a superhero game
It was just an example of a grab-bag of utility powers/spell effects.
Feel free to substitute it with whatever exists in your chosen system.

>>98128641
Then obviously I meant the only one anybody has ever heard of, you weird bastard.

>>98128652
FASERIP, the stat isn't ZTRENGTH.

>>98133085
He's got the German version.

>>98130117
Or play a good game and keep telekinesis.

>>98133952
Then it kills the suspension of disbelief. If you can TK the rubble away you fucking do it, or don't bother going there.
Because you're going to get some dirty fucking looks from all the folks busting ass trying to rescue people trapped under it.
Minor telekinesis is fine, but powerful stuff is a no-go if anon wants to just do maid stuff.

>>98134375
What the fuck are you on about? You can do maid stuff and have telekinesis and clear debris with it. He didn't say he only wanted to do maid stuff. He listed clearing debris as something he wanted to do. What contradiction are you imagining?

>>98134375
>>98134541
lifting giant chunks of rubble to save people is part of the maid gimmick of cleaning things up
no mess is too big or too small

decide if you want a character with specific maid powers or a character that has powers and also a maid theme

Every time I recommend TSR Marvel, someone always seems to want me to describe the whole system. Obviously, I'm not going to do that. So, here's the system, just read it in my voice.

Core rule books
https://archive.org/details/tsr-6871-advanced-players-book-reduced
https://archive.org/details/judges-book-0

Resources
https://archive.org/details/marvel-tsr-sage-lore-char/MARVEL%20TSR%20SAGE%20VECH%202/
https://archive.org/details/weapons-locker
https://archive.org/details/tsr-6889-ma-4-the-fantastic-four-compendium
https://archive.org/details/avengers-coast-to-coast-classic-marvel-forever-pdf-room

Modules
https://archive.org/details/marveltimetrap
https://archive.org/details/tsr-6892-mla-1-after-midnight
https://archive.org/details/tsr-6879-me-1-cosmos-cubed
https://archive.org/details/tsr-6895-mla-2-night-moves
https://archive.org/details/tsr-6877-mx-3-reap-the-whirlwind
https://archive.org/details/tsr-6888-mx-4-flames-of-doom
https://archive.org/details/tsr-6880-me-2-ragnarok-and-roll
https://archive.org/details/tsr-6875-mx-2-the-x-potential
https://archive.org/details/tsr-6891-mt-3-the-revenge-of-kang
https://archive.org/details/tsr-6873-mx-1-nightmares-of-futures-past

>>98138689
mostly just started with the maid theme, then started thinking up what a superpowered maid might do, then finally what powers would accomplish that

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>>98114633
>>98114631
funnily enough, the prototype spider-man drawn up by jack kirby looks a lot like blue beetle and seemingly was going to be a lot more gadget based if the gun is any indication

>>98052360
Seconding Outgunned but keep in mind that the game mainly aims to emulate the pace and style of movies which might be a goldmine or disaster depending on your group.

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>>98143705
Dont take my point as correct. But as i remember your pic is a fan made picture. It even looks like they took a Ditko drawing as inspirarion.
From what i read n /co/ and fan webpages, pic is what Kirby would have drawn regarding to Ditkos memory.
But yes, Kirbys Spider-Man would look more like Blue Beetle.

>>98143705
I never saw this before, thanks!

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some inspiration for my not-AIM mooks
they could be used for the SCU-type law enforcement, who show up to arrest zod-tier threats after the heroes subdue them

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>>98143705
>prototype spider-man drawn up by jack kirby
To be clear, that picture is 100% not by Kirby, it's fanart. Kirby's original and only--only--illustration of a non-Ditko Spider-Man is lost and presumed destroyed.

This anon >>98145069 has given you a 2002 sketch where Ditko, that's his sketch from memory and his writing, puts the record straight since he was very tired of Kirby taking credit for Spider-Man. According to Ditko, five pages of pencils had been drawn by Kirby but only the splash page featured Spider-Man in costume, the rest were of the aunt and uncle and the teenager. The only other pictures Kirby then drew of Spider-Man in costume were based on Ditko's creation after Ditko had finished the first Spider-Man story, such as the first published cover which was a Kirby pencil after Lee rejected Ditko's pencil.

>going to be a lot more gadget based if the gun is any indication
It's not an indication. That pistol is literally just a web shooter. Ditko wasn't so ham-fisted as Kirby and made the web shooters wrist mounted.

You can look up The Fly if you like. If it looks familiar it's because Kirby re-used his rejected Spider-Man design as inspiration. For some reason the first foe The Fly fights is a spider based villain. Was Kirby subtly trying to tell us something?

>>98149454
>If it looks familiar it's because Kirby re-used his rejected Spider-Man design as inspiration
Fuck, I wrote that completely backwards. Kirby re-used his Fly design as inspiration.

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>>98149491
>>98149454
So the Fly is the Spider-Man design repurposed?

>>98148686
what do those acronyms stand for? AIM? SCU?

>>98150473
AIM is Advanced Ideas Mechanics from marvel, their henchmen have the funny looking, bright yellow , hazmat suits
SCU is the special crimes unit from DC, they have the white stormtrooper looking armor in the superman show

cyberpunk armor can go both ways, I think
either good or bad

>>98150258
No, I corrected that
>>Kirby re-used his Fly design

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>>98150473

>>98153748
Ok, thanks.

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So I have only ever played Mutants & Masterminds, first edition and second edition, as supers games go. I notice that there's at least some negative sentiment in these supers games threads about M&M, and I wonder if that's a reaction to it being popular, to third edition specifically, or whatever else.

Why the disdain for Mutants & Masterminds, and is it limited to specific editions or what?

It's nothing personal, really, it just doesn't do anything unique, or particularly well. It's not well-balanced, there are tier lists on the internet detailing overpowered and useless options; it's needlessly crunchy while not being any more fun to play than simpler systems; and it repeats all the mistakes of obsolete systems for no reason (d20 + millions of fiddly bullshit modifiers, numerical distances, etc)

>>98159172
>Why the disdain for Mutants & Masterminds
I once asked about MnM at my FLGS, and the people currently playing a 5e-superhero clone just said they never want to use MnM again

>>98159262
>numerical distances
wat

>>98159336
Yes, that's what I said.

>>98159338
no, explain more about what you mean. in what context do these numerical distances exist? how are they used?

>>98159344
Don't make demands of me. Ask me to explain, and I'll consider it.

>>98159344
NTA but i think they mean distances being measured as a number instead of squares or range bands
so saying the enemy is 30-feet away instead of 6 squares or at medium range

>>98159350
why on earth would that be a problem?

Yeah, not surprised you don't get it. lol

>>98159353
personally, it feels kinda clunky
range bands are easier to keep track of in theatre of the mind while squares are easier to keep track of on mats

>>98159367
first, what easier system with range bands are you talking about? secondly, why would squares and tactical movement matter either way if you're doing theater of the mind?

I'm not advocating for systems that make a lot of use of minis and tactical movement or anything, but I've run systems that do that as theater of the mind and it went fine.

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>>98159395
off the top of my head, playing with numerical values just leads to people rounding off to the tens-place for simplicity in the first place
so for the sake of simplicity, the person at 42 feet real distance will just be treated as 30-feet in theatre of the mind
so you could just simplify it into both 30 and 42 feet being the same "medium" range in practice, which works out for the best when no one has a grid

when playing on an actual grid, then squares are the obvious answer

Everyone in the same section is within Close range. People in different sections in the same location are at Distant range. One page to move between sections, one page to move to Touch range of a target in the same section. Area attacks affect a section. Gee, that was tough.

>>98159442
so you are arguing for range bands rather than numerical distances?
because thats exactly what the simple example was used to demonstrate, that people rarely if ever actually use the ones place in numerical distance

Does this guy think "not using the ones place" is in any way similar to what I just explained? lol

I'm still waiting on someone to give the name of the easier supers game with range bands, but that isn't Tiny Supers.

How has demanding shit while offering nothing in return worked out for you so far?

Do not get me started on Tiny Supers. It may be the worst supers RPG besides Masks.

So, I have a question about FASERIP, particularly around movement powers. The game very specifically says that super heroes can move 3 areas, but I can't find where it says that characters with movement powers can move farther than that. Am I just blind, or what?

>>98162455
maybe check the original TSR manual?

>>98162455
Refer to
>>98138706

>>98020709
How did Darkseid and Thanos manage to be the top villains of DC and Marvel, respectively? They are fucking fat and ridiculous. Thanos looks like he has cutlets for a chin. Regardless of how powerful they are, they simply are ridiculous to look at, everything about them scream fat nerd. Not that the heroes are much better, with their gaudy costumes and shaky, fake as fuck boomeroid morals, but at least they try not to look like lardasses. Also: why do supervillains almost never get redesigns to make them cooler?

>>98164883
>darkseid
started out as the enemy of mister miracle and orion specifically
he only touched on the greater DC universe tangentially, his minion kalibak was sent to fight orion on earth which happened to be in metropolis
but aside from oblique references to superman, dan turpin mentions being used to costumed weirdoes, superman never actually appears and he ends up fighting dan turpin and orion rather than superman
but darkseid had an incredibly on-the-nose name of evil, positioned himself as the god of evil, and was at war with beings literally called new gods
so he had an air of grandeur and cosmic scope that made him feel like a top tier threat head and shoulders above anyone else

when darkseid was re-introduced post-crisis as a superman villain, it was decided that darkseid would be positioned as a hyper threat due to having already aura farmed hard in the fourth world before

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