>>98101456
It's shit and Fatt Colville is a hack faggot.

>>98101456
No one plays this and it’s gay.
It and daggerheart suck each others bleeding hiv dicks in the bargain bin

>>98101456
Worldbuilding elf setting?

Draw Steel is such a dumb name.

>>98101456
No.
If you don't want to play DnD(which you shouldn't) just play Pathfinder

>>98101456
Honestly I thought some of the mechanics sounded interesting, I'd be willing to give it a try, but Colville has such shit taste in aesthetics. The setting is gay, the new races and twists on classic races are gay, the class that has fourth wall breaking names for all their abilities is SUPER gay. I'd play a hack of it that stripped out all the west coast nu-fantasy garbage.

>>98102708
Explain exactly what makes it so gay

>>98101456
depends on the gm

>>98101456
Cool.
Maybe you could elaborate on why you think that?
Or are you just fishing for naysayers?

>>98101699
They should have called it "Prepare Spell".

I don't draw.
And I use wooden clubs.

>>98102708
>The setting is gay, the new races and twists on classic races are gay, the class that has fourth wall breaking names for all their abilities is SUPER gay.
Why do you think that way?
What is it about the setting and its races that makes it so gay?

>>98102708
go ahead, tell me about the setting. Show me the art. Convince me.

>>98101456
I was curious about it, actually.
Could we get a constructive thread, for a change? What did you like about it, anon?
>>98101478
>It's shit
Well, then what didn't you like about it, curious to hear that, too
>>98102639
>Pathfinder
I played Pathfinder for a few years, and I can confidently say it’s shit. It’s an accounting simulator, and there’s a huge gap in power level between optimized and unoptimized characters.
Basically, if you don’t comb through the options to find the mathematically optimal build, you won’t be on the same power level as a character whose player did. And because the game is mostly about combat, you’ll end up doing nothing all game long.
The combat system isn’t anything to write home about either. You can’t do anything unexpected or fun, like swinging from a chandelier into an enemy, unless your character is built for it, which you shouldn’t do for the reason above.
I remember one campaign where the enemies were using a ballista during a fight. We managed to seize it early on, but then gave up on turning it against them, because without the siege weapon proficiency we would miss most of the shots and were better off just making normal attacks.
That’s about as anti-cinematic as it gets.
The quest for the best D&D alternative continues, as far as I'm concerned.

>>98102711
>>98102910
>>98102928
Damn son, hold your horses. The setting hardly differs from modern 5e FR: tons of races that feel like a fantasy San Francisco. Colville talks about how he wants his dwarves, elves, etc. to feel truly alien and not think or behave like humans. But to me they just come off as rubber-forehead aliens. "Dwarves don't just live in the earth, they are stone!" It comes off as gimmicky to me. I loathe the tone in the writing style, there is no sense of grandeur, no sincerity.

All of the class ability names are cutesy one-liners. The rogue equivalent has ability names like "I work better alone" and "teamwork has its place." The bard equivalent is the worst offender: "flip the script," "classic chandelier stunt," "fix it in post." Everything about it rubs me the wrong way.

The tone is too juvenile, the writing is too informal, everything about the game's sense of style rubs me the wrong way. I am all for a more tactical skirmish game in the vein of 4E, but I don't think I could stomach this.

File: Dwarves.png (5.1 MB)

>>98103000
Forgot to post an image. This is from the backer kit. I really, really hate these dwarves.

>>98103000
>Dwarves don't just live in the earth, they are stone!"
Warcraft already did this, it's not subversive at all.

File: Revenant.png (4.9 MB)

>>98103015
WoW did playable undead already, too.

>>98102762
Nay.

>>98103005
>writer is short and fat
>to no one's surprise midges are a giant self insert power fantasy.

>>98101505
Came here to say this. No one plays this faggot game because good games already exist. It only exists as a reactionary game for ignorant 5E players who have never played anything else, especially older editions of their own supposedly beloved game

Just play trespasser

>>98101456
>Draw steel
>At no point I'm asking to draw a piece of steel
Shit game, 0/10, dogshit diarreah false advertisement, reported to the consumer's right wiki.

>>98102892
"Roll for Initiative"?

Had a lot of fun running Delian Tomb for a group that has only ever played 5e, and two that played 4e back in the day.
We did a bit of an autopsy after the first few sessions about what worked (combat feels snappy and synergistic, paying attention outside your turn is very helpful, malice/powers name you feel like you have a lot of abilities) as well as the bad (downtime projects have less guidance, negotiations are a bit tricky to grok at first).
Would recommend trying out, and it's free.

>>98103057
Draw Steel has nothing to do with 5E beyond 5E being liquid shit for the kind of game Draw Steel is.

File: reads.jpg (52.9 KB)

Draw Steel is like a beautiful sculpture made of shit. I am impressed by it and the work involved, but I don't understand why anyone would make it, or why anyone would want to be around it.
>Lore is wordy, marvelesque, silly in an unfun way, and absurd to the point of incongruity
>Rules are dense, with tons of complications, with a unique name for all the 20 different resource points; ultimately serving to play a modern Larian video game as a pen and paper RPG (VTT not mandatory but highly recommended)
>Prices are high
>Golf scores are way high too
>Fiction is limited to medieval kitchen sink fantasy where the players are equivalent to super heroes, it makes WoD games look setting agnostic
>DND4e-styled "Every action is a named ability with rules" so you can't blow your nose without knowing "Cantankerous Cavern Displacement" a second level commander ability
>Or in this case a second level null time raider ability
>LOOK at what the MCDM RPG has been demanding your Respect for all this time, with all the rules & fantasy we built for them: -energy
>I would like 4 Spark Off Your Skin, please
They have played you for absolute fools.

>>98101456
Knowing nothing else about it but this shit cover art, I would never touch this game.

>>98103411
4e has good combat and i imagine this game has good combat

the setting looks like shit though. if you hate this game blame lancer.

>>98103468
I like using a resource system instead of daily and encounter abilities but other than that combat feels way worse than 4e.

>>98103000
>>98103005
>>98103019
Damn you were right, this is unbelievably gay

Zee (whose shit I will not link) did a video on this shit and their proprietary VTT and the entire time I was listening to him jabber on about adjacency and maneuvers and bonus actions and the quirky names for shit and how a character just fucking died by walking in a room just made me think
>Wow this shit sounds insanely tedious and fucking terrible to actually play. What's the fucking point of this shit? Just play a fucking wargame you faggots.

>>98104285
Wargames don't have continuity by default, have you controlling more than one character, and don't have roleplaying by default. How the fuck is a wargame going to do anything for them?

File: 715b6841e50ff36ea7562807feea4402.jpg (6.3 MB)

I have played and GMed Draw Steel from levels 1 to 10.

It is a fairly good 4e-like game, though it has its share of balance issues. Some playstyles are overwhelmingly strong compared to others (e.g. your standard-issue hakaan metakinetic null who shoves enemies into each other for tremendous damage), and some enemies in the bestiary punch far above their stated EV (and this is practically official, seeing how infamous offenders like the chorogaunt and the thorn dragon were later reprinted in downgraded form).

Some groups will like negotiations and montages. Others, not so much. As for me, I found the negotiation subsystem to be repetitive and too easily gameable, while montages were too loose and undefined on difficulties.

It is still a game I would recommend to anyone looking for a 4e-like experience. I personally prefer 4e to Draw Steel, though I would gladly play or GM the latter still.

I have a play report of a level 5 game over here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Be1a7GJ1gjK7SqYQWZmxA2Tx_nIF6vRcTNqOKuUUQ3g/edit

>>98104308
All they want is structured, repetitive combat. Draw Steel is not a fucking story game. It's a minis skirmish game.

>>98103468
>4e has good combat
That's completely subjective, especially considering that 4e didn't have a functional Monster Manual for a long time.

File: bccb525177c8b550a4ced516845aab98.jpg (394.9 KB)

>>98103411

>I would like 4 Spark Off Your Skin, please

Yes, this is another irksome facet of Draw Steel for me. Some ancestries are flat-out better than others. Dwarf is a good general-purpose ancestry for the raw Stamina and the Stability, though in certain cases, you will instead want a hakaan for the extra forced movement.

At higher levels, high elves and time raiders are good picks solely due to the daze immunity. Higher-level enemies dazing PCs can put a serious damper on a party's game plan.

File: 53414da02862fecdbc9cfaa7a6636abb.jpg (468.6 KB)

>>98104343

>Draw Steel is not a fucking story game. It's a minis skirmish game.
I do not have an issue with this.

>>98104373

>4e didn't have a functional Monster Manual for a long time.
That does not matter to me. I judge games as they are in the present day, so I judge 4e based on all books being available. (This is not that hard when the online and offline compendiums contain all official 4e material ever published.)

I ran a session of 4e just yesterday, for reference.

I likewise judge Draw Steel based on all books being available, though admittedly, not much has come out for it.

>>98104398
>That does not matter to me.
It kinda explains 4e's failure tho. And anyhow, that's not really important because combat is a slog. Draw Steel is less of a slog, but manages to be more immersion-breaking that 4e.

>>98103468
>if you hate this game blame lancer.
???
I will probably regret it but what do you mean

>>98103005
>>98103019
This is like the apotheosis of late-aughts fantasy, as codified by 3.5, early 4e, and WoW. Whedonesque character writing, stupid overty elaborate names for fucking everything, over designed and overgreebled art influenced by the worst parts of MtG art and 90's comics. The combat looks neat, but fuck me everything I've never been more turned off by a game's aesthetics.

File: 573d9141b625642c6d94ceea3d991603.png (2.3 MB)

>>98103005
>>98103055
>>98103901
>>98104636

For what it is worth, what is pictured is an early draft of the dwarf section. The release version's dwarf section has been entirely rewritten, with a completely different (and more serious) tone.

>>98104558

>It kinda explains 4e's failure tho.
Depends on your definition of "failure." I find 4e to be a good foundation for a grid-based tactical game, and I have been playing and DMing since it launch. (I DMed a 4e session just yesterday, as mentioned). To me, that is a success.

>Draw Steel is less of a slog, but manages to be more immersion-breaking that 4e.
"Immersion" is very, very far down my list of priorities in grid-based tactical combat games. I care primarily about how well-balanced the metagame is and how much tactical depth there is.

I personally prefer 4e's metagame to Draw Steel's, but I will hardly complain about playing or GMing the latter.

>>98104285
>"I made the lair ability only attack enemies"
>"It's supposed to attack everyone"
>The evil undead spirit kills other evil undead spirits
>???
Instead of Draw Steel they should Draw Themselves Up A Better Game

>>98104717
How would you rank all the more tactics driven, 4e-influenced RPG's that have come out in the past few years (this, Pathfinder 2e, 13th Age 2e) compared to 4e?

File: 4fe70f5b78e594eb1e8c91c1a5837536.jpg (7.7 MB)

>>98104762

The grid-based tactical combat games I have been liking are D&D 4e, Draw Steel, Path/Starfinder 2e, and indie titles such as Tailfeathers/Kazzam, Tacticians of Ahm, Tom Abbadon's ICON 2.0, and level2janitor's Tactiquest.

Between the non-indie titles, 4e is still my favorite. I would personally rank them as follows: 4e > Draw Steel > Path/Starfinder 2e.

That said, 4e has a very high barrier of entry, both as a player and as a DM. Completely out-of-the-box, in the hands of players and a GM who are not intimately familiar with the game, I would rank the non-indie titles as follows: Draw Steel > Path/Starfinder 2e > 4e. Yes, 4e really needs players and a DM who are already highly experienced with the mechanics for it to shine.

13th Age 2e is not a grid-based game. It is still reasonably tactical, but it is not grid-based, so I do not consider it to be in the same category as 4e or Draw Steel. I find the PC option balance of 13th Age 2e to be fantastically executed, and I am a great fan of the system overall. I have been keeping a combat diary of my campaign here, in case you are interested: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HQC2x2FfjnBDZDaicQDCLWO2-R6xMyUAa_rJcMABpfw/edit

>>98104807
>The grid-based tactical combat games I have been liking are D&D 4e, Draw Steel, Path/Starfinder 2e
I mean I appreciate the approach. I respect you, I just despise people trying to sell those as RPG first.

Every week I play Draw Steel over the table, and it's easily the best tactical experience of any RPG I've ever played. Can't play D&D combat anymore, it is way too boring to me now.

>>98103005
>>98103019
The term is far too overused nowadays but i find it hard to describe this as anything other than "Reddit incarnate"

>>98105033
>Catalog
120% Colville-brained
4e ruined the hobby forever, it attracted this kind of people

>>98101456
..Eh, worth a look. Where should I start?

>>98103292
5e reactionaries is why draw steel exists but too much of 5E’s residual gayness stayed with the creators and it’s obvious in every page

File: 1674196013257977.jpg (642.2 KB)

>>98101456
>off-brand Beholder
Absolutely disgusting.

Just make something new.

File: evil eye.png (3.5 MB)

>>98105809
Even as far as offbrand beholders go that design is comically terrible

>>98101456
>that overdesigned, Blizzard-esque shitpile of a beholder
>that "human with bodypaint" excuse of an orc barbarian that is, as always, a woman
>those Dota 2 cosmetic tier eyeball minions flying around
>the complete and utter lack of a cohesive narrative or choreography present in the scene
Foul beyond words, this is comparable to AI generated images for the utter lack of humanity or soul permeating it

>>98102639
>if you don't want to play D&D play D&D with the serial numbers filed off
Possibly the stupidest post on /tg/ right now.

>>98106191
>>those Dota 2 cosmetic tier eyeball minions flying around
They do kind of look like ward cosmetics, don't they....

>>98106216
Literally the first thing i thought of, from the fact that they're all different, vibrant colours to the random ass crown added to add a smidge of extra detail on what's just a flying eyeball and nothing more

>>98106279
Must be one of those evolving battlepass wards with all the different colorways.

Most i know of Matt Colville is watching a video of his that got recommended to me and reaching a part where he unironically said something like "and that's why i always write fantasy characters that speak like modern people!"
At that point i clicked off the video

>>98106586
I'm convinced that most of his audience don't actually process anything he says, because when you actually listen to his advice, it's fucking terrible and often contradictory. Not to mention that he's apparently incapable of putting any of it into practice in the games he's run on camera. One of the most successful retarded blowhards in the RPG hobby.

>>98106839
He’s all bark and no bite. Midwits eat him up because he sounds like what they imagine a wise, well-adjusted adult who plays dnd would sound like. Anyone who actually runs games on a regular basis and knows how to read a room can tell how full of shit he is. Fucking grifter faggot

>>98103005
Please tell me the whole book isn't written like this.

>>98105809
>>98106168
I do like the broader conceptual "fuck you" of taking the monster that WotC is most litigious about and creating a monster that is virtually identical in mechanics but is legally distinct enough that WotC can't do anything about it, but putting it on your cover and having it be so poorly designed feels less like a challenge to the big dog and more like they're desperate to be mistaken for them.

>>98104336
Kill yourself edna.

>>98105809
Absolutely disgusting.

Just work on your art.

>>98106924
>doesn't recognize Ribbon
Fuck off, newfag.

>>98106958
Fairly certain he's invoking the meme, but it's been so long, I could be wrong.

>>98106965
I think it may actually be the genuine woyafag still being his weird bitch self.

>>98106839
Can you post a few quotes of contradictory advice he's given?

>>98106976
He made a video last year about how to fix the "forever DM" problem and his advice amounted to
>Don't tell people to stop playing only D&D
>Just run whatever system you (the GM) want, because the players (who don't want to play other systems that aren't D&D) will be forced to play since they don't do anything anyway. There is advice for what to do if players stop showing up because they refuse to learn a new system
>And then get one of the other players (who refuse to ever DM/GM anything and never have) to run a game instead, because that's good for avoiding DM burnout.
>Therefore, the solution to the Forever DM problem is just to not have the problem

>>98107000
Fuck me. That should read
>There is NO* advice for what to do if players stop showing up because they refuse to learn a new system

>>98107000
>>98107009
that sounds kinda retarded, if I understand correctly it is: "if you, the DM, want to play a new system, just start running games with it"

a recipe for having nofriends, sounds like

>>98107060
When I resumed GMing last I asked around my RPG friends if they wanted to play CoC. Most of them had never played but figured they'd try it out. The one guy who's autistic about DND played for 4 sessions, got stabbed to death by a cultist, then made up excuses to not show again. Another 2 dropped in the middle of the second module for vague reasons that translated into "Don't want to play."

4 players remained, I've played multiple games with them for the past 4 years and we have good times. Running a game you don't want to run is moronic and a self-powered misery engine.

>>98104807
I was initially excited about Path/Starfinder 2e but the more I've looked into it (classes, progression, settings), the less I care to keep an eye out for local groups for it. Good to hear about 13th Age 2e, though. How's ICON 2.0? I enjoyed a short Lancer campaign but it definitely wasn't perfect, and the DM had a hell of a time attempting to balance encounters.

Never heard of Tailfeathers/Kazzam, Tacticians of Ahm, or Tactiquest.

>>98106972
Still mentally ill, huh ribbonfag?

File: 185c46e1a376df8f3f86e2a622379459.jpg (2.6 MB)

>>98107711

ICON 2.0 currently has a pre-playtest alpha document, but it is very rough (and incomplete), and Tom Abbadon has already identified many spots in need of revision. There will be a more polished playtest document some time later this year, or perhaps next year.

>>98106972
I'm surprised but disappointed the woyafag hasn't killed himself yet.

why(if) is the combat better than Lancer?

>>98107775
i dislike icon 2.0 compared to 1.0. icon 1.0 had 16 very iconic classes. icon 2.0 has like 50 classes but they are shallow like sotdl and mix and match which is much less iconic

I don't get the point of the 4elikes like Draw Steel or Pathfinder 2e. They aren't as good as 4e in what they are trying to do and aren't ever going to have as much content. If I wanted my balanced tactical fantasy game I would play the complete one, especially because the compendiums are really easy to find and easy to use.

Also Paizo and Colville are massive faggots and I don't want to support them. Even by playing their game for free.

Please WotC, before you kill yourself from fucking up D&D and Fortniting MtG, please just release 4e from its horrible fucked up license and make it as open as the d20OGL so someone less retard and gay can make a good 4.5 that's backwards compatible.

>>98109660
Just play 4e you dip

>>98109660
>>98109705
Na, Anon makes a good point. If IP laws weren't a viper's nest the decent thing to do is make a second dnd4e so fans could have the history of past content for their new game, which is ultimately what is driving this... Dare I speak these cursed words? "4e renaissance". Now I want it as a containment game, but wanting one game type to have one continuous line of releases is perfectly reasonable. People who like Call of Cthulhu or Delta Green, or any of the fucking spin offs, have 50 years of material to pull from that translates almost 1:1. 4e fans, due to a failure of society to cure them of their mental illness, have a handful of games with middling support to choose from, and none of them are compatible with each other. That's rough.

>>98109757
>I need corposlop to make my game
Fuck lol sucks to be a 4e player

>>98109775
>>98109757
Imagine still be this asshurt at 4e's existence 18 years later.

>>98102892
Heh

>>98101456
Sell me on it. What makes it good?

>>98109821
Or you could play it and stop waiting for a miracle…?

>>98109660
>If I wanted my balanced tactical fantasy game I would play the complete one
But that's not 4e.either. People want their heartbreakers because the parent game has its slew of issues and is fairly ass to get off the ground to run.

>>98103468
What's Lancer got to do with it?

>>98104807
I haven't played ICON yet but from looking at the rulebook it looked pretty interesting, save the forced-cozy setting maybe. Class mechanics looked well tjought out and I like Abaddon's art.

>>98109821
Every day until they pay reparations to my ass.

Agreed. It really is impressive that Matt Colville managed to write the best RPG combat on his first attempt at game design. Plays a lot like a skirmish wargame with lots of cues from MOBAs and 40k, with personal resources that can be used to power up abilities and abilities that have a lot of combo synergy with each other

>>98110471
It wasn't Colville, it was Introcaso, who is one of us. Crows looking good

>>98109884
>>98104566
its the popularity of lancer that lead to the most recent wave of combat focused RPGs. People largely gave up on combat centric games after 4e until lancer pushed that subtype of TTRPG back to prominence . the anti 4e propaganda was so strong that it took a total genre break to re-engage this subgenre.

between 4e and lancer how many TTTRPGS did we get? 13th age - this was from the same devs as 4e and some people consider it TTTRPG adjacent instead of TTRPG. Pathfinder 2e? This game was made to give kingmaker 2's cRPG a better combat engine than 3.5 but with fun replaced by filler.

>>98101456
>not a game about gerrymandering election maps
False advertisement.

>>98112500
StEEl not stEAl anon.
Gerrymandering drawing would be a funny board game.

I enjoy Draw Steel, but do not care for the default setting.
I reskinned the races and we played a campaign in Warcraft's universe and we had a great time.

>>98107000
>>98107009
>There is no advice for what to do if players stop showing up because they refuse to learn a new system
That's one of the biggest issues with D&D being the first and often the only system for most people though, this whole idea of having to put effort into learning the system is an absolute bullshit and barely a thing for 95% of other games worth a damn. In most cases the GM can give you the rundown of everything that you absolutely need to know to play as a beginner in no more than 5 minutes and then maybe introduce new concepts as they become relevant. But because D&D is such a clunky, overdesigned mess full of shitty relics from previous editions, with each class having a bunch of unique and often very arbitrary mechanics or limitations that you need to learn and understand to play even at a very basic level, it makes newbies believe that every RPG system is like that and actively discourages them from trying anything else.

>>98113621
the inability to shell a shrimple game to a table that plays 5e (or any other game) is a skill issue and has nothing to do with d&d.

the fact that there's so many other games that are 'popular' is indicative that 5e players will swap.

>>98105809
>>98106916
If anything Microsoft could go after them, fucking thing looks exactly like one of the demons in WoW.

>>98103005
>>98101456
>>98103019
I love how you don't even need to read anything, one glance at the art and you know this game is gay and soulless.

>>98113659
>has nothing to do with d&d.
It has everything to do with D&D, because every retarded D&D-only player who is too brain damaged and scared to learn a new system always tells everyone who wants to get into the hobby that D&D is the easiest game to learn. These people love the idea of playing other genres, other types of games, but will always shy away from actually learning anything else, and will sooner insist that awkwardly cramming D&D into a genre-shaped box it wasn't made for is the same thing as playing a different system.

>>98115317
Nta, but I'd say that 85 percent of the time someone on here complains about how they can't get out of the 5e hole, with a little bit of elaboration it comes out that the person complaining has actually done a fucking awful job of introducing any new games to their group. Are their groups that absolutely won't quit 5e no matter what? Probably, yeah, but I think there are far more people out there who's idea of pitching a game is talking about how cool it would be and then expecting the players to do a bunch of homework, or pitching a game that, on the surface, is just a slight variation on the same thing (like, I hate 5e, let's play pathfinder instead! To the layman, it seems like you're trading one heroic action fantasy game, for another fantasy game that has the massive negative of not already knowing it.)

>>98115317
No, you are just awful at selling your different game. The fact that Fatt Coville made a new company and game based on leeching 5e players from that game shows it’s possible and viable.

Use your brain you troglodyte - which is ironic because that’s what you blame 5e players of lacking

>>98115489
Draw Steel isn't about leeching 5E players it's about grabbing 4E players you idiot.

>>98115482
>the person complaining has actually done a fucking awful job of introducing any new games to their group
Most of the time, it never even gets to that step and the reason no one ever really tries is because they think learning a new system will be as hard, or harder, than learning 5e, which they still struggle with after years of playing.

If the players aren't willing to learn the rules or even crack open a quickstart or just pirate the PDF, which has always been piss easy, it's because they aren't genuinely willing to even begin learning a different system.

>>98115489
Matt Colville only proved that he can sell a game to Matt Colville fans and other D&D youtubers. The total lack of wider conversation about the system doesn't really paint a picture of a vibrant and lively community.

>>98115543
>makes a robust how to DM series for the worlds greatest RPG on YouTube and builds a community

>makes their own game to cater to that audience

>it just happens that he loves 4e so he uses it as a base for his new game

>5e players are interested to be converted to a new system, which has roots in the game they play anyways

>>98115601
Better stick with 5e then I guess

>>98115601
I play with other adults who have jobs and lives. I've gotten my group to play plenty of different games, and i do it by coming to the table with something more than a pitch that amounts to "I think this system/setting is really really cool, guys!" That's what I'm talking about. I don't ask them to read fucking anything when I'm introducing a new game. They show up, they have pregenerated characters, and we run through a one shot where I actually *show* them why the game is fun and why they should be interested in it. The fact that you're complaining about them not doing homework for an activity they have no way or knowing that they'll enjoy is exactly the fucking shit that I'm talking about. You cannot get your players to play different games because you are bad at introducing new games to them. You are the problem, full stop.

My group will play anything I put in front of them as long as they dont have to GM. We've never had a single bad campaign.
We ran 4e D&D, DCC and Dolmenwood last year. This year we're running Nimble RPG, and will be trying out the warhammer age of sigmar RPG next.

>>98110703
>kingmaker 2's cRPG a better combat engine than 3.5
Wrath of the Righteous? Owlcat didn't use the PF2e ruleset though, not at all. They seem hesitant to do so actually (almost like it'd make for a shit video game).

>>98116922
no retard, not wrath of the righteous. Wrath of the righteous was made out of the same engine to save money. pathfinder 2 was made for when they make a second kingmaker.

>>98116785
>The fact that you're complaining about them not doing homework for an activity they have no way or knowing that they'll enjoy is exactly the fucking shit that I'm talking about.
Reading and learning rules is a core feature of the hobby. However, the people who cannot even be bothered to learn the barest basics without someone painstakingly preparing things for them are still better off than the kind of people who won't even touch another system, even when offered gratuitous handholding.

You sound like a fucking retard when you refer to learning the game as "homework" and you make your friends sound like lazy faggots when you pat yourself on the back for babying them. It genuinely doesn't take that long to learn a system.

>>98117352
You don’t get a new painter into painting by having them learn color theory and the theory on art, you get them into painting by putting a paint brush in their hand and getting them to paint.

Same with any hobby. You don’t get your kids into football by explaining the rules of the game, you get them in by playing catch with them.

Stop being an idiot and just get your friends at the table and have them roll dice. They’ll learn as you play

>>98117352
Learning the game happens after they are sold on the game. If your pitch is "once you read this book entire book you'll totally have fun, I promise" your pitch is dogshit. If your pitch is here "here is this fun experience, this is why this is cool and fun," then afterwards they'll be happy to invest some time and effort into learning the system. Again, 5e isn't the problem, your inability to pitch a game is the problem.

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>>98101456
The superior version of this game came out a decade ago.

Say what you will about the generic name and the "wanime" art, but just being able to tweak a handful of stats and just buy the skills and features you want for your moves beats wading through the 100th reinvention of DnD classes except even more gimmicky.

>>98106191
I legit thought it was AI before reading the thread.

I'm still not totally convinced it isn't AI.

>>98119916
It's hand drawn, but spiritually it might as well be AI

>>98119876
point buy and tactical rpgs don't mesh well together. retarded take

>>98124070
Nta, but please, explain your reasoning, I would think the opposite is true.

>>98107775
>ICON 2.0
Man, I didn't even realize they had finished ICON. They just kept dropping new 1. versions over and over.

>>98102974
>Pathfinder is shit
Agree. Especially if played as written following GM advice and published adventures. If played ignoring all of that and just fucking about? It's solid. Starfinder is even better.
If you are going to be ignoring "correct" play styles though, it's better to just play a different system altogether. Hilariously, the best Pathfinder I have played is Pathfinder for Savage Worlds.

>>98124093
when you are point buying characters end up samey - this is less of an issue with class based systems

>>98124255
This has not been my experience. You might argue that roles are samey, but that's built in in class based games.

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>>98101456
I take it back, make him fat again. Holy shit.

>>98119212
There are plenty of games that are not playable without understanding the full system.

>>98126519
>Ozempic neck
>Child Predator Mustache
Crazy

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>>98126519
>1930s garage manager who mainly handles paperwork aesthetic

>>98126519
Why is he going for lichdom?

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>>98126551
>>98126565
Fucker looked thinner in a video from barely a month ago but this is ridiculous.

>>98126532
Those are shit games then.

>>98126571
No, not really.

>>98126519
he is pretty Gen X Reddit, but he's way better than the rest of DungeonTube. its good he's going to live a lot longer from the GLP-1 meds, the RPG world will benefit greatly from his continued existence

>>98126600
no games hands typed this

>>98126579
Nta, but yes, those are badly designed games.

>>98126704
No. It means they're games that require buy-in from the players. Doesn't make them bad.

>>98126694
>>98126699
Is the *only* reason D&D is bad is because of politics? Really? I'll agree that politics is one of the reasons D&D is fucking ass, but that's not nearly enough to explain its rotten stench

>>98126694
No, D&D was destroyed by an insufferable asshole making babby's first edition and choking an actual design ethos in a modular game intended to appeal to all D&D players out of spite.

>>98126770
If you can't give the players a single session vertical slice of the game, then it's a badly designed game. End of story. If you can't teach the game via play, it's a badly designed game. It sounds your problem isn't getting your players to play games that aren't 5e, it sounds like you have shitty taste in games.

>>98126770
At some point, it's sort of a moot point. The issue isn't "I cannot get my group to try and play games other than d&d," it's become "I want to play incredibly niche games that require a greater deal of buy-in than my players are willing to put forth." That doesn't have anything to do with d&d. *Most* games can be taught during play, or at the very least, can be used to design an introductory scenario without the players having an in depth knowledge of the rules.

>>98126854
Draw Steel is not a niche game.

>>98126819
I don't have a problem with getting players to play things other than 5E because I don't play 5E at all. All I'm doing is pointing out that calling games that require a full understanding of it to sit down and play bad is stupid.

>>98126885
Lol yes it is. Also, I'm pretty sure you could design a one shot for people who haven't played the game before.
>>98126887
Alright, name an example of a well designed game that is absolutely impossible to run as a one shot for newbies.

>>98126892
Advanced Squad Leader

>>98126896
Board game, not an rpg. Good try, though, work on your reading comprehension and maybe you can be part of these conversations someday, champ.

>>98126907
You asked for a game. If you wanted an RPG, Hârnmaster and Rolemaster and Riddle of Steel fit the bill. They aren't bad games. But you're not going to get anywhere other than dead when you're plunked at a table starting from zero.

>>98126819
>If you can't give the players a single session vertical slice of the game, then it's a badly designed game. End of story.
Nah. That's
>If you don't cater to the lowest common denominator and appeal to the easily amused you won't be as popular
That's fine.
At this point all you're going to do is say anything complicated or that benefits from reading is bad. Doesn't matter what people list.

>>98126921
>You asked for a game
>In a thread about rpgs
>Replying to a reply chain that has been entirely about rpgs
You fucking pedants who just want to fucking argue for no reason are more annoying that the puckee shit and the ACKS/antiAcks morons. Go and stay go.

>>98126937
It's not about catering to the lowest common denominator, it's about being able to show off the game in a quick manner so people might get interested in reading/investing further.

>>98126944
>You fucking pedants who just want to fucking argue for no reason are more annoying-
'The Argument Clinic' sketch was based on real events. Never forget that.

>>98104343
>All they want is structured, repetitive combat
With continuity, RPG levelling, controlling only one character, and with a GM that creates balanced challenges instead of just being pvp.
So, not much like a wargame at all besides "focused on combat" and "uses miniatures".

Not defending draw steel but I'm tired of people thinking "combat focused RPG = wargame" when it's blatantly untrue.

>>98126944
>for no reason
I'm arguing because he made a dogshit assertion that all games that require frontloaded learning are bad.

>>98126519
holy shit, he looks like a wraith life drained him

>>98125005
The thing I hate about most, not all, class base systems is that it's the, wouldn't you know it, same blown out tropey shit that makes "everyone plays the same" preferable even if it were true. At least with Valor I can be what I want narratively without being forced into a tired high fantasy bit.

"Oh if you wanna play a Gunslinger, BUY MY BOOK BUY MY BOOK BUY MY BOOK"

Valor? "Oh, just put points into Agility or Mind and get some Ranged on your Damage Core. From there you can put all sorts of Mod treats or Skills to your liking."

I'd probably be much more interested if the classes and races didn't seem so "dnd again" and more modular.

>>98126957
>its not about advertising as quickly as possible to the most people as possible its just about being able to quickly advertise as much as possible to the most people as possible.
lol okay

>>98126519
OZEPMIC MOMENT

>>98101456
I thought people hated 4e. Why is there a new version?

>>98128663
DnD again can mean alot of different things. a fighter in 13th age plays very differently than one in 4e and most games dont have mulitiple viable fighter builds like these two systems. the problem with generic/point-buy systems is is that your gunslinger is probobly going to play almost exactly the same as someone else's crossbow scout.

>>98126519
It's always hilarious when retards go on ozempic and age 20 years in the span of a few months.

>>98126595
>he is pretty Gen X Reddit, but he's way better than the rest of DungeonTube
He's not. He's just as bad as all the rest of the pseudo intellectual faggots. Plus, he'll eventually stop ozempic and rebound harder than ever.

>>98126519
What the fuck lol he's slowly transforming into John Astin

>>98126519
He's lost a lot of weight, good for him.
You know, as long as it's on purpose and it's not cancer or something.

>>98101456
>Beholder related monster in a non d&d game
Why should I care about some bootleg

>>98130635
He took a shortcut and now he looks like a ghoul. The second he stops paying for more shots, he will regain that weight, but all the organ damage, muscle loss, and uneven weight loss will remain.

>>98130670
You seem really angry about him improving his life. You can pay for the shots to take that shortcut too, the grapes are not in fact sour.

>>98130706
I'm doing just fine. Doubt you can say the same, but go ahead and enjoy your short term ghoulification followed by regaining all of the weight and none of the health you damaged by injecting big pharma's latest scam.

>>98130131
People only really hated 4e because it wasn't 3e again and also because they were told to hate it by people who never actually played it. Once the serial numbers were filed off people warmed up to it.

>>98130790
The first round of releases was not the best. There was also the VTT problems and WotC clamping down on digital copies because the printers leaked the PDFs. Also, personal opinion, but 4e had a terrible art style and horrendously boring layouts that made the books fucking boring to page through.

>>98130718
Post shirtless or gtfo

>>98130790
Just like the star wars prequels, they were very good and not bad actually, and the reviewers at the time were merely confused.

>>98130134
Are the Gunslinger and the Crossbow Scout all buying the exact same skills, the exact same stat distribution, and building the exact same Techniques? Probably not. There are more stats to invest into other than Agility, which can also further definite the two. The Gunslinger might have high Guts, giving him surprising durability and skills that can either help him last longer where the Scout investing into Mind will have their own Utility to access.

Of course there's also nothing stopping someone from making a Tank that has Mind as a tertiary investment to shoot off a magitech revolver as a backup (such as a Minotaur gal one of my players made) or a genetically modified maid that uses a mixture of Agility acrobats and Guys durability to act as a high survival support.

>>98131323
idk man i really enjoy mutants and masterminds for what it is but it largely boils down to everyone just doing damage. compared to class specific stuff in icon like 'drop my sword, dash back to it or draw it to me'

>>98132669
Are you assuming that Valor doesn't have any dynamic play like:

Ramming: Attack anyone you move into and move them whereever you move
Rush: Move through anyone you attack without being slowed down in their Zone of Control regardless
Dash: Using this attack lets you move
Launching: Send a target into the air, anyone able to hit them gets bonus damage and cannot use Reactions
Counter, Clash: Ready an attack, if you beat the contest, you straight up can shut down an attack that could potentially nuke your party.

There's plenty more, such as the variety of effects you can use Weakens/Debilitating strikes from a list of unique flaws, or how battlefield hazards and sub-objective Challenge scenes can change a fight.

And...what does "drop my sword, dash back and draw it to me" even mean in this context that makes it more "dynamic" and "distinct" than what you can do with Valor's rules?

>>98126519
Don't do ozempic kids, the easy way out makes you look like a ghoul
Start working out instad

>>98130706
>improving his life
Nobody tell this guy about the effect ozempic has on bone mass

>>98130790
It's amazing how people incessantly try to revise history when that history only happened 10-15 years ago and everyone still remembers it. 4E was hated because it wasn't an RPG and had nothing to do with D&D. It was fraud, simple as.

>>98131165
And the SW prequels are shit too. The sequels being even worse doesn't suddenly make the prequels okay.

>>98134349
>wasn't an RPG
[citation needed]
>had nothing to do with D&D
[citation needed]

>>98133113
does valor have sword dashing? No? it means your generic system does not have everything

>>98134349
D&D wasn't an RPG originally, it was an adventure/wargame. Roleplaying came later. The less feminine roleplaying, the better.

>>98134349
The prequels are better than the originals, but you need an actual developed frontal cortex to appreciate them, something most star wars fans, especially 90s star wars fans, lack.

>>98138102
Wrong. D&D was an attempt to add roleplaying to a wargame framework.
>>98134349
>It wasn't an RPG
>Had nothing to do with D&D
Absolute reddit take there fagaloon.

Kind of on topic but I'm interested in playing 4e, what books should I look into getting? Obviously I know there's a core rulebook, but I've also been told about a rules compendium, and I've also been told to grab the essentials line and I'm just kind of lost.

>>98142530
Honestly get the Rules Compendium and DMG and then use the online compendium and offline character builder for everything else

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>>98142530

D&D 4e has a very, very high barrier of entry. There are many ways in which you can screw up, like running unmodified Keep on the Shadowfell with Monster Manual 1 math and monster design.

You will want to pick up the Rules Compendium, the online and offline compendiums (e.g. https://iws.mx/dnd/ ), and a character builder with the hacks to let it load everything up-to-date.

Be very, very careful with monsters and NPCs. Try to avoid Monster Manual 1 math and design, and veer towards Monster Manual 3 math and design if you can (e.g. Monster Manual 3, Monster Vault, Monster Vault: Threats to the Nentir Vale, Demonomicon). In general, if a monster entry has a "standard actions" header, then it is Monster Manual 3 math and design, though this is not always true.

>>98142579

This is an okay starting point, though it is worth noting that the Dungeon Master's Guide 1 is outdated on several points, such as virtually all of its rules concerning monsters and NPCs. (The Dungeon Master's Guide 1 still pretends that Monster Manual 1 math and design are valid.)

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>>98142530
Whoever told you to grab the essentials line was either jerking your chain, or was speaking specifically of some of the racial and feat changes that were made for the better within them. For most everything else, you're better served by sticking to the Player's Handbooks.

While the compendium shared by >>98142763 contains the whole bulk of content across the game's lifecycle, parsing all of that info is an impossible ask for a group just starting out. The barrier of entry they speak of only really exists if you're trying to minmax everything in the game to it's highest degree.

Get the Rules Compendium, both DMGs, Player's Handbooks 1 and 2, and maybe the Adventurer's Vault for some extra magic items to supplement. For monsters, get Monster Manual 3, Monster Vault, and use picrel when you want to make your own baddies instead. Though reskinning works just fine usually for purpose. If you and your group want/need anything else after that, then you can begin dipping your toes into the expanded content for the game. But for simply creating adventures to run and players to play in them, all this should suffice to start.

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>>98143034

The barrier of entry I am talking about is actually the rookie mistake of "I picked up the Player's Handbook 1, the Dungeon Master's Guide 1, the Monster Manual 1, and Keep on the Shadowfell, then ran that as our first adventure. (Also, we did not know that there was errata.) It was a bad experience!"

This is an anecdote I have heard multiple times: the latest being a few months ago, when a contact of mine shared how they tried to get into 4e (and get their group into 4e), but did all of the above and spoiled the experience for everyone.

In other words, it is easy to bungle up the experience just by using the wrong books. People do not know what they do not know.

>>98143065
Yes, that's why you tell them what is and is not viable. But just dropping the whole ass compendium on them isn't viable for newbies either, because they don't have a single point of reference for practically anything in the game yet either. Ease people into the concept of nuclear physics before you give them an atom bomb to play with, yeah?

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>>98143073

Maybe it is just my experience, but I have personally found players new to 4e to have no trouble sorting through the compendiums and the character builder.

I can imagine this being more of an issue for players who do not intuitively twig to crunch-heavy RPGs, though.

>>98143099

Edna, have you checked out the Project Tactica RPG?
It's a serial-numbers filed off 4e D&D. Still early in development but looks promising.

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>>98145943

I have talked to the author every so often, and looked at the wiki. It is actually closer to Pathfinder 2e with D&D 4e-isms.

I think Project Tactica looks okay, but it is obviously very incomplete at the moment.

>>98101456
From what I understand it's pretty mid.
It markets itself like it's not connected to Critical Role, but it is.
Just play PF2Remastered or stick to 5.0e like everyone else is... or you could get your big boy pants on and come play AD&D like us oldfags still do.

>>98102974
Played a couple of lengthy sessions of it so far, so here's my takes

- Players love how much they can do on a turn, but because it has a higher amount of options, players who don't engage in the system are not going to have fun
- The montage tests and Negotiation systems are good ideas but are a little undercooked/require a good amount of work from the DM to get working- particularly negotiation-- I do think that you need to give handouts on what the players can specifically inquire about
- Running combat as a DM is actually quite interesting, and spending your own tokens on in-game effects is fun
- The lack of a specific gold-spend is a little strange and you basically need to come up with your own shop-mechanics if you want shops in your game Indeed, between that and the removal of long rests, the way the game feels is very different- no need to set watches at night for random encounters, and it means you need to do very different things if you want to enable random encounters in the future.
- Roleplay is roleplay, so no changes there
- The retainers are a solid addition to play, and players love killing minions
- The way the stats work is good; though it's a shame you don't get the immediate 'pop off' of a nat20, even if statistically you can achieve the same and the effect is oftentimes better than what you'd get from a nat 20 in DnD
- Character creation is quite fun and can really get your players thinking about stuff, especially if they opt to roll on some of the tables there.
- The setting is hard to seperate from the mechanics sometimes and the taste of naming conventions for abilities and the like is a little bit too twee for my liking. Some of the race/lore ideas are cool, but sometimes they're trying too hard to remake something that doesn't need remaking

So yeah overall pretty happy with it and am willing to play more and support more. Better than 5e mechanically in a lot of ways, but also a bit more rigid than 5e.

>>98101456
You know what? I think 4e retards need to have fun, too. They like playing boardgames on grids and looking at different movement effects, navel gazing over complex interactions, and want to solve a "mechanics puzzle"? You know what? Fucking go nuts.
You aren't roleplaying. Don't pretend you are. You can't roleplay with Draw Steel despite of it being called a "roleplaying game" unless you do so in SPITE of it.

>>98149062
This but unironically.

>>98149062
They do, it's called Pathfinder 2e.

>>98149062
What is in 5e that allows role-playing but isn't in 4e or draw steel?

>>98151057
The benchmark isn't 5e, it's core only 3.5, the actual gold standard for roleplaying.

>>98153344
And what does 3.5 have that 4e/Draw Steel don't?

>>98153468
800 pointless skills that no one takes and spells that let you skip encounters/skill use instantly.

>>98149062
this nigga needs a book telling him how to make shit up in his head lmao

>>98148027
>- The lack of a specific gold-spend is a little strange and you basically need to come up with your own shop-mechanics if you want shops in your game Indeed, between that and the removal of long rests, the way the game feels is very different- no need to set watches at night for random encounters, and it means you need to do very different things if you want to enable random encounters in the future.

I think the game wants you to treat it like an action movie. All this stuff just gets cut out or handwaved so you can get onto the next action scene.

>>98101699
Roll Initiative wouldve been more appropriate.

>>98101456
What worldbuilding?

>>98119212
Fucking hell that's how these fat fucks in my hometown "introduced" me to Vampire the Masquerade LARP scene.
>Sure anon you can come and play, just read the core rules, your splat, our local rules, our background.
Turns out they were beta orbiters and didn't want a cute twink like me anywhere near the goth girls they were trying to groom. What a shitshow that was.

>>98130706
Losing weight on ozempic is like gaining muscle or steroids, bro.
That shit isn't good for you. At all. It's not good to praise people for abusing drugs that damage their organs and health.

>>98155146
Honesty check: is it better to be morbidly obese, or be at a normal weight and on ozempic?

>>98156941
It's probably better to be on ozempic if you're morbidly obese, but only because there's very little that's worse than being morbidly obese. Still, here's another honesty check for you: is being chubby the same as being morbidly obese? Matt Colville wasn't 600 pounds. We're talking about an unhealthy procedure motivated entirely by a mixture of vanity and laziness.

>>98101478
fpbp

>>98101478
Based

>>98156941
Unless you are in immediate danger of dying from morbid obesity related health conditions, diabetes, or whatever, the best thing is a long-term change in diet and increased physical activity. That's it. Matt Colville was not fat enough that his life was in danger.

>>98155030
>Idiots trying to groom a bunch of goth girls
>Not trying to groom the hot twink

That's faggotry if I've ever heard it.

>>98158902
>immediate danger
>of dying from morbid obesity related health conditions
>"If this man eats one more pack of jaffa cakes he's going to explode!"

>>98103019
>one belt is somehow not falling off despite half of it missing
>the other belt looks like 2 belts tied together
>the satchel is suspended by nothing
Who the fuck drew this?

>>98159227
AI

>>98153468
I like how he didn't respond. Its almost like >>98153491 was right. Or he doesn't actually know shit all about 4e is just an autist who is still fuming made 18 years later that it was even created.

>>98159391
Well there is no answer to it. It was a question I asked knowing that there isn't a proper answer, and any attempt at an answer would basically boil down to 'vibes' or something. Anything that you can do for roleplay in 3.x can be done in 4e just the same.

What if you used Draw Steel while in the dungeon, but when you leave you switch to something like Good Society for socializing in town?

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Will Night Shift: Devil Division do better or worse than Draw Steel? It's a Draw Steel-like/hack about anime.

>>98160213
Depends on what changes they make. It can't do any worse than Draw Steel at least.

>>98161828
Uhhhhhh. Ever play Shadowdark?

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