Ah, yes, the chasm that was supposed to force the PCs to find another way across. I'll equip it with a crossbow.

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>>98133838
Simpler way is to not let flying PCs hover in space. If you're flying, you're moving, and that taxes action economy.
>>98133900
So don't use chasms as your blocking terrain in a party full of fliers. If you've only got one or two, even if they bring ropes across, crossing that gap is not trivial.

Not like there isn't magic to do this, anyway.

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>>98133900
>flying PCs are overpowered because they can easily overcome ONE (1) terrain obstacle
lol. lmao even

>>98133838
If you have hostile crossbowmen everywhere to shoot the flying guy, you have hostile crossbowmen everywhere to shoot the other guys, making them pay for the flying guy's crimes.
Besides, D&D is more than just a combat wargames. Having a guy who can ignore an entire axis of space heavily limits your options for puzzles and exploration. Sure, you CAN get around it in ways, but why do that when you can solve the issue much more easily simply by asking the players not to take the problem option?

>>98133931
He can't ignore it, though, unless you make him a perfect helicopter that ignores the terrain hazards of the air.

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>>98133931
>party can't handle a few guys with crossbows
Are your players really that braindead?

>GM can't handle saying "the dungeon hallway is too narrow for you to spread your wings"
Are you really that braindead?

>>98133915
>So don't use chasms as your blocking terrain in a party full of fliers. If you've only got one or two, even if they bring ropes across, crossing that gap is not trivial
Lmao dude if you could fly making a basic rope bridge across practically any gap would be stupidly fast and trival

>>98133900
>one guy passes the casm
>the rest of the party cant
so now what?

>>98133900
There are flying monsters in the chasm that fire high-velocity bone spikes.
Holy fuck that was difficult to think of.

The problem with flyers is suddenly every encounter and location then needs to be built with them in mind to make it fun for everyone.

Stuff like having a tower thats needs scaling is going to to have to be an underground or anti-flying aura thing to not trivialize for instance.

I will say flying as an issue is a bit overblown as most system have a spell that makes you fly. (Yhough admittedly Im sure a person playing a flying race is more likely to try to make flying a solution to everything)

>>98134028
its not that big of an issue if you keep in mind that only 1 person can fly and all the others cant. Alright, you got a tower. One guy got inside. Is this one guy suddenly gonna fight the 5 dudes + miniboss all on his own? Do all the skill checks alone, despite the other party members being far better at them?

>>98134080
Secure a rope ladder to a point at top of tower and now everyone climbs up.

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>>98134028
As if you don't already build encounters designed around your PCs and their abilities anyway.

>>98134127
The monsters can see (or otherwise access) the ladder and cut it while they climb. Alternatively, they have crossbows. Or, since they start at the top where the hypothetical boss is, the boss is able to call in ALL the reinforcements from below. Use your brain.

>>98134127
>the party uses their abilities and items to accomplish their goals
What a disaster

>>98133971
Do you mean just four ropes? Because crossing that shit is going to be harrowing. Especially when the local wildlife (annoying birds) show up to peck you.

If you mean a full-on bridge, do you have the craft knowledge for that? No? Then you can try, and I'll go ahead and make a secret roll whether or not you did it right, or if it collapses and dumps your ass down the chasm.

>>98134008
Have you literally never heard of a noncombat encounter?

>>98133931
Do you guys seriously not regularly include ranged asswipes in your encounters?

>>98134028
>Stuff like having a tower thats needs scaling is going to to have to be an underground or anti-flying aura thing to not trivialize for instance.
>anti-flying aura

You mean "wind?"

>>98134215
Yeah, and the more abilities they have, the more time and effort it takes to make a worthwhile encounter.

>the ability to walk through walls isn't overpowered because you can just make it so that all walls are actually two layers with a bottomless pit in-between them
>now if he tries to walk through walls, he falls to his death
Yes, a GM CAN work around anything the players have. "Overpowered" does not mean "insurmountable", it means that the number of problems trivialized by a character option is disproportionately large when compared to other available options. And, when your solutions are
>adjust every subsequent encounter to counter that specific ability
>frequently declare that the specific ability doesn't work or is inaccessible in a given scenario
then you're looking at an ability that's warping the game around it.

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>>98134327
This is going to be happening anyway as they level up and flying is seriously not THAT hard to build/plan around compared to some of the higher level abilities you can get in D&D and it's clones

Besides, sometimes it's fun to let your players use their abilities to get around something or "win" a situation. IMO there should always be a fair few opportunities for them to take advantage of their abilities

>>98134340
>he thinks flying is the same power level as walking through walls
Nogames

>>98134351
>doesn’t understand analogy
Nobrains

>>98134127
great, the party used teamwork and their unique skills to tackle a problem!

Now everyone who tries to climb the rope must make an athletics check to not fall down and a stealth check to not be detected.

Manage to pull all that off? Congrats, you climbed the tower undetected!

>>98134340
Yeah I dont get what specifically about flying people cant grasp this concept for.

Semi-related but a flying race should radically change a setting. Like you should be thinking why isnt every race subservient to them levels of change. The ammount if things irl that having decent flying would.change is immense. Think about scaling a mountian and building a fort atop it without needing to create anyway up and down the side. The ability to project power, transfer goods, construct anything. It'd all be radically changed. (Yes magic is world altering in a similar way, but typically magic users are more rare than 100% of a species)

>>98133838
Flying is op IRL too. Literally the entirety of modern warfare revolves around flying. Drones, airplanes, anti-air, ballistic missiles, aircraft carriers, etc.

Ground units are only for holding ground. The majority of combat casaulties in americas wars and in the ukraine-russia war comes from air combat (aircraft and drones, respectively).

Who would have guessed that being able to move in 3 dimensions in a 3 dimensional world would be so useful.

>>98134550
Yeah I dont think people really understand just how prevalent bombing tactics would be in a setting with a flying race.

World building-wise its hard to hit Arial moving targets so so some sort of flak alternative would need to be a thing to be a very effective counter. I suppose magic missile would be like THE spell a mage would want to know but how many cats could a mage do per day and how many mages would be in a place at once?

Honestly the more autistic you get thinking about such a thing the more far reaching consequences could be. It just completely alters a world.

>>98133900
Replace the chasm with a caved-in hallway or another obstacle that can't simply be flown over or has consequences for doing so (a river that emits toxic fumes)

>>98134532
Thats actually a very good point. If we imagine magic is not society changing because there is like one lvl3 dnd mage for every 1000 people, and magical artifacts are incredibly rare and hard to make, then it is easy to understand how they cant affect society (like 50 mages per city is just not enough).

But if an entire race of flying intelligent creatures existed, they would dominate combat with just bows and arrows. They dont need to secure supply routes, they can just fly over any dangers, allowing them to avoid armies forever, it is impossible to force them into battle except by attacking their homes, which is also very difficult as they can build their homes in physically unreachable areas in mountains making them basically immune to land invasions. Gravity works in their favour always, their arrows become twice as fast as they reach their target while the ones on the arrows flying against them lose most of their power. They would be the ultimate warring race. I guess elves and dwarves would be able to maintain their place as elves are low in number but highly capable and good at defending their lands, and dwarves live underground, making flight irrelevant.

However, Orcs, Humans, and all other land races WILL bow to their heavenly masters or be destroyed.

>>98134283
Ranged asswipes are not instant death to PCs.

>>98134951
If the fumes are toxic enough that you couldn’t just glide over while holding your breath, you’d be out for the count just walking up to the fucking thing.

>>98135357
The thing is they would be very strong versus an elf, mobile aerial targets have not just a huge mobility advantage but a huge stealth advantage. Id say arrows would be a minor concern next to a flyer dropping a fire based alchemical solution. Better have a tile roof

>Oh yeah everyone just has someone watching the skies!
That'd be a very boring job and prone to lapses in paying attention. Not to mention they could just fly with the sun to their back a pretty common way irl of aerial targets to obscure themselves some.

Dwarves would be very strong vs a flier though but really why would a flyer want to own underground stuff where their natural abilities dont matter?

>>98135357
Elves live in dense forests, can practice guerilla tactics, and have random magic. The elves would be forced further into the woods at each step fighting to maintain their way of life forced to dedicate themselves further to the art of war and connection with the wilderness.
Orcs are too savage to fully unite under one banner. Though tribes have been enslaved the spark of Gruumsh remains deep inside their bones...
Goliaths were forced upward into the coldest most isolated mountains. The cold too much to bear for those only clad in feathers.
Halflings are literally too useless to enslave.
But everyone else is probably doomed. What are these heavenly masters like?

>>98135357
>But if an entire race of flying intelligent creatures existed, they would dominate combat with just bows and arrows.

Only if they can shoot while flying. Most flying races do not have the ability to levitate nor hover. Archery in flight should be incredibly inaccurate even more so than mounted archery is compared to dismounted archery.

>>98134279
Sounds boring

>>98135805
its "magical" fumes [winks at you]

>>98133838
This, D&Drones would not survive a DBZ game in something like DBU or any supers system lmao

>>98136902
>>98136853
My buddies and I pick up a alchemist fire and drop it on you and your village doing multiple runs at all times of day and night

>>98134340
>>98134457
It's objectively not the same thing. I regularly run and play a system where anyone at any point can just have flight, but guess what, so can their enemies. Christ you faggots need to play something other than D&D or Pathfinder.

>>98137309
The viability of alchemist fire runs depend on the climate of the forest. Also I assumed Elven infrastructure is built into the forest providing some measure of camouflage.

>>98133838
To be fair, in editions before 5e it WAS overpowered at low levels. Now in 5e power levels are so bullshit that the PCs are practically invincible so who even gives a fuck. 1st level Astral Elves can teleport at will? Sure who gives a shit any more.

I think it's because low level d&d isn't designed for it.

It has literally never been a problem in any other system I have ever played.
Just low level d&d. That is the only place where all the bitching comes from.
It isn't even a issue in mid level play in d&d.
It's retarded moaning from people who can be safely ignored.

Any gm who thinks flying PCs are a issue is a noob who refuses to learn how to not be retarded. Don't play with such idiots.

>>98137365
It doesn't depend on shit.

>>98136902
You can literally just grab a bag of rocks and scatter them over people's heads and they'll die.

>>98137671
Any rocks that would actually do a significant amount of damage would weight enough to impede a flier's ability to fly and are liable to be far less damaging than you imagine.

>>98137997
Wrong. Get the fuck back to school you drooling retard.

>>98133838
Do you think flight is just some sort of video game "cannot be hit by melee" flag?

>>98137998
So you are one of those idiots who believe pennies dropped from skyscrappers are lethal? Go back to middle school and finish 7th grade you babbling idiot. Terminal velocity limits the how much damage dropped objects can do.

>>98137997
>>98138019
Is it challenging for you to remember to breathe lmao

I dunno about players bad damn flying monsters can be really annoying
>be monk
>manage to be able to use bow
>me "well, having a ranged tool is useful, shurikens really have short range"
>reach 7th level
>more flying monsters start appearing
>me "I won't be useless"
>GM "so the monster has DR 10, your bow deals 0 in all attacks that aren't crit"
>me "maybe shuriken?"
>GM "you have -8 due distance"

I even bought bolas, tangleroot arrows, etc but turns out they by rules don't do anything against flying monsters who are immune to trip (bolas trips) or pass the flying check on almost anything. Turns out you can't even jump and grapple/punch in mid air

I was playing a paladin in a campaign as we were fighting across a bridge the dm had a griffin grapple my guy and drop him off into the canyon killing him instantly.

Bit harsh for one failed check but whatever

>>98138019
Let me explain the opinion of the guy you are replying to.
>penny small, penny only 3 grams
>small stone is big, 300 grams fits in hand.
>Penny from sky only hurts a lot. Small stone is 100 times stronger.
>Can carry twenty small stones no problem (6kg, around 13lb).
>fifty flying men dropping their bags on formations. A lot of ouch and die.
>No need to hold backup ammo, just go get another bag.
>no need worry about supplies, stone everywhere.
>our army win, enemy army lose

>>98138031
>>98138469
nta but its incredible how smug you are while being completely wrong, arrogant fools are the most entertaining.
Also, helmets exist.

>>98137311
The thread is about D&D tardzilla.

>>98138485
He just is trolling.
The moment you pull out actual physics and math they will resort to name calling to get the last word in then take your eventual moving on as a victory.

>>98138671
D&D + it's derivatives, which does include Pathfinder, but he has a good point anyway

>nooo flying PCs are broken because I can't just use flying enemies or enemies with ranged weapons or say the dungeon hallway is too narrow

>>98138485
Ok i dont get it anymore, what are you even doing? Are you saying that getting hit by a brick that fell from like 50m doesnt kill or even break bones?

>>98138679
Ok retard. Lets calculate it.
Imagining the stone is a cube (for simplicity) half a kg (500grams), the density of stone is around 3 g/cm3. this means each side is 5.5cm, a small hand-filling stone.The cross sectional area would be 30cm2 at the widest point. This means the terminal velocity is 51.657 m/s or 115.6 mph.

This means the momentum of said stone would be 25.83 kg.m/s

A shotgun slug flies at around 500m/s at close range and weighs something like 28g.

Thats a momentum of 14kg.m/s

In other words dropping hand-filling stones from the sky is more powerful than shooting someone with a shotgun slug at close range.

Now admit you are a fucking retard and have the mental awareness of a child.

>>98134283
A few dudes with ranged weapons is going to be a non starter against flying PCs, and giving a lot of ranged options means that your encounter design becomes trite and limiting. All because a PC can fly.

Game legit becomes more fun for everyone by not including it in the first place.

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>>98138931
>A few dudes with ranged weapons is going to be a non starter against flying PCs, and giving a lot of ranged options means that your encounter design becomes trite and limiting
How so?

>>98133838
Massed ranged weapons fuck the entire party just as hard. It's an incredibly OP strategy when combined with superior numbers (which the enemies will almost always have).

>>98138825
You take a sizeable amount of low level threats out of the Monster Manual when players can fly. That doesn't mean all, but it does mean the mechanic is centralizing. That's generally considered an issue in game design.

File: crossbow.jpg (308.3 KB)

The ultimate bane of any flying PC. Few GMs wield the intellectual prowess required to give an enemy a devastating ranged 1d6 attack without it being included in the stat block for them already.

>>98139409
>That's generally considered an issue in game design
It absolutely is. Most low-level monsters in PF2e come pre-equipped with ranged options, and the only way flying is broken (at least in D&D 5e) is if you're running monsters pure RAW and don't do any tweaking for your game - but the fact you'd need to do any tweaking in the first place is kind of it's own problem. 5e is designed in such a way that expects most fights to be a melee slugfest.

>>98139538
It's also retarded that the designers didn't think it was worth giving most enemies ranged options, making it necessary for DMs to "fix" WotC's shitty game for them.

>>98133915
I wish Keith Thompson would come back.

>>98139568
Even in the cases where the designers gave enemies ranged options, they're still generally worse than melee options.
An Ogre can throw javelins, but unless you're only flying 20 feet up, they have disadvantage, and either way it's still less on average than the Ogre hitting you with a greatclub, so flight still ends up being an advantage.

Even better if the GM is an idiot who gave the Ogre a crossbow, because with 8 Dex it's going to miss even more and deal even less. And if it's a big enough siege crossbow to do more than the greatclub, then it's also the rest of the party that suffers.

>>98139568
A game should be reasonably balanced with RAW. I know that's difficult for D&D players to grasp, but if the GM has to do extra work or invalidate their prep because of an option a player took, that's kind of a problem even if the work isn't much.

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>>98139759
PF2e has decent balancing between ranged and melee IMO, but that's only My experience. Probably worth noting I've also never run a single monster straight RAW, but that's more because they don't fit what I want than any balance issues.

>>98140058
>A game should be reasonably balanced with RAW
I agree.

>>98134028
>The problem with flyers is suddenly every encounter and location then needs to be built with them in mind to make it fun for everyone.
Absolutely not, this is brainrot and just makes everything feel overly curated and artificial.

Normal locations that flying doesn't matter (them being able to do something just because they can fly doesn't matter)
>forests
>dungeons
>temples
>caves
>underwater
>buildings
>towns
>palaces
Do you all play in the great plains setting exclusively?

>>98138469
>>98138916
>300 grams
>now it's 500
>just assume it's square
Talk about being a retard

>>98140453
>they will resort to name calling to get the last word in

>>98133838
I hate them because flying characters are always faggot races played by faggots. Mechanically, they are no different than any other characters. I just hate them for being faggots played by faggots.

>>98140674
>everyone I talk to is the same person
Get tested

>>98133838
>just give every wolf a crossbow
>all adventuring takes place indoors right
>it's fine if a PC categorically is immune to 80% of threats for the first 5 levels and is immune to about 30% for the entire game
>all other types of flight are magic item or concentration this will be fine

In 5e, which is what you're actually talking about, the printed PC races with wings pay nowhere near what they need to pay for those wings.

In other games winged PCs can be fine, especially if the game has level limits or level adjustments or some other thing that actually tries to balance them.

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>>98140386
>>98140408
This. Flying is only overpowered if somehow all you ever have are open-air fights on completely flat terrain.

>>98140689
This is also true.

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>>98140767
>every encounter is wolves
>all adventuring takes place outside in open air spaces right
>it's fine if a PC has another movement option that enables them to overcome certain problems creatively
>the PC doesn't need to get magic items or spells that give them new movement options

ftfy

>>98140453
If we assume its a 300g stone of impossibly low density (2 g/cm3) it is still around 10 kg.m/s momentum close to that of a shotgun slug. Also i assumed cube because it is the highest air resistance outside of parachute shapes.

Anymore excuses? Are you going to admit retardation now?

>>98137671
You miss.

>>98137671
If this were realistic, being shot with an arrow would mean you die. Dropping a rock on someone's head (if you even hit) will not one-hit kill anyone outside of 4e.

>>98138671
It's not even an issue in D&D because as has been noted, give enemies ranged weapons. If you're flying in D&D, you probably don't have STR because you're either doing a ranged cheese build, your race can't wear heavy/medium armor to fly, or both. This means you probably also dumped CON because you think you're gonna just kite everything.

That opens up a slew of options for stopping flight. Net traps, hold person, a poisoned crossbow bolt that causes incapacitated with a high CON save, there's plenty of ways for a GM to handle flight, and that's if you even care to.

As has also been noted, you fags assume every fight is gonna be in a big open area with super high ceilings. Like... 100+ foot tall ceilings. Which... no? Like not even in baseline D&D, in most modules you're underground in a dungeon with at best 20 foot high hallways. Plenty within the range of even a hand crossbow.

Even running 5e with homebrew flying races I never once encountered any issues. You're all just fucking peabrained morons who can't deal with three-dimensional space in your TTRPGs.

>>98133838
People bitch about it because every single scenario that takes place outdoors just becomes "Wait around while the flying guy goes on a solo adventure and scouts out the entire location by himself" which is boring as fuck for the rest of the party.

>>98141349
All these options you mentioned are more deadly to the people on the ground. Paralyze bolts and hold person??? Why dont you just hit the party with a meteor and cut it short. Also clearly in dungeons and enclosed spaces flying is less of an issue, but anytime you are outside it is an issue. Also DEX builds have higher AC

>>98141390
>Nets
Useless against ground-bound STR focused characters
>Hold Person
At worst equally deadly
>Poison
See hold person.
>Ranged weapons in general
Cover exists on the ground. Cover does not exist in open air. This goes to the people on the ground.
>20ft tall hallways
This doesn't disadvantage ground based characters, in fact it's to their benefit, especially if they've got faster than normal movement like a Tabaxi, Centaur, or a Monk.
>DEX builds have higher AC
No they don't, with the exception of maybe a lategame Monk. Even splint armor is 17 without DEX, while leather armor with DEX is at most 16. By the time the DEX character gets to studded leather, the STR character's going to likely have magical plate armor, or might even start with it if you're starting at 5th or higher. That's before you get sword and board involved. A Rogue with Studded Leather is going to have at best 17 AC. A Paladin with Full Plate, Defense, and a Shield will have 21 AC, and can also take Heavy Armor Master to reduce all mundane BPS damage they take by their proficiency bonus. The only class that can beat 21 AC without magic gear of any kind is Barbarian, as its capstone lets it boost its CON high enough to give it 22 AC, but they're super MAD to get to that point (20 STR, 20 CON, 20 DEX). If you get magic items involved, that paladin's going to have a cool 27 AC, 29 with Shield of Faith.

You're a retard who doesn't even know what the fuck he's talking about.

>>98141349
You sure are good at beating up that strawman you made of me. I play plenty of games with three dimensional movement, two a week in fact. D&D is just notably worse than other systems at handling this problem by RAW, putting much more work on the DM.

Also what retard is dumping CON in a flying archer build? Unless you rolled like ass you'll probably be going for DEX > CON/WIS > the rest because that's just the smart way to build in D&D outside of casters who call for INT/CHA or martials who call for STR.

>>98133838
Read the rules for strong wind.

>>98141433
Fair enough, you are right on the AC stuff. Also, i never said dungeons are bad for non-fliers, i said fliers are indeed not optimal underground or inside buildings, but thats it.

My main problem with flying characters is that now i cant have anything trivialised by flight, and it begins to feel like a vendita against the flying guy.

Imagine if a race had the ability to go invisible at lvl1 at will. That shit will be obnoxious to deal with. Mind you invisibility is a lvl2 spell and fly is a lvl3 spell.

Yes i can have creatures that sense with sound or heat or magic or whatever. Yes i can make it so its impossible to infiltrate while invisible, complete the entire mission and leave. But that will always feel forced.

So instead i wont allow a race with invisibility or flight in dnd. Much less of an issue

>>98141522
Read the rules for strong wind. You can thank me after. I solved your problem for you.
Have a world with WEATHER.

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>>98141390
>All these options you mentioned are more deadly to the people on the ground
How so?

>Why dont you just hit the party with a meteor
What? Do you exclusively run games at level 1 and below?

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>>98141433
I once had a paladin character who, by level 20, made it to an AC of 27. Fun times. Most I ever had on a dex build was 19, but I think that game only hit level 8.

Also, flying enemies were never an issue because I had a crossbow.

>>98134532
>a flying race should radically change a setting. Like you should be thinking why isnt every race subservient to them levels of change
>Anon discovers dragons

>>98141539
If its strong wind, then his flight is no longer useful. I just robbed him of a race feature by being like "no you cant fly" might as well tell him pick another race. I am not forced to play with flying races.

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>>98141603
As if there'll never be moments where, for one reason or another, other abilities that other PCs have may be shut down, useless, or impractical.

>Antimagic field/counterspell/silence (no you cant cast that spell)
>Paralyze effects (no you cant do anything this turn)
>Damage immunities (no you cant hurt it with fire)
>an enemy literally just being 40 feet away (no you cant get up to melee range this turn without dashing or being a monk/etc.)

Besides, you don't need EVERY fight outdoors to have wind. Just a couple here and there to challenge them once in a while. Don't be retarded.

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>>98141139
No you didn't fix anything, all my points make sense and your mirror cases are maximally fucking retarded.

The problem with skipping encounters with wolves- wolves here standing in for literally every encounter with animals and almost everything with magical beast type creatures, most of which cannot fly- is that the PC in question has complete immunity when that is tactically useful, and can distract, kite, and pull himself out of danger effortlessly for a serious percentage of encounters. Even the cases where the wolves have some goblin riders with shortbows, the birdman PC still faces only a small subset of things. There's only a tiny fraction of encounters where the flight doesn't grant immunity to a serious set of things. Finally, you don't need to be immune to EVERY encounter to be a problem. A PC that makes you have to eliminate every wolf and dire lion encounter if you want the PCs to be threatened is a garbage PC, especially if he pays pretty much nothing for the power. It's not about every encounter, it's about a serious number of them, and that's a problem.

Again, if every encounter is indoors then low ceilings (or rulings about wingspan) can mitigate a lot of the PCs bullshit for an entire adventure. Those work ok. But the moment you go outdoors- the moment everything isn't indoors- then the PC again removes all threat and challenge from any outdoor encounter. As above, you don't need EVERY encounter to have a problem for the wings to be a problem, the category of encounters that are trivial is just way too fucking big.

Anyway, I doubt you're going to be deretardified by this because you couldn't possibly have made this argument in good faith if you weren't a total retard. So you're either here to troll, or you are incurably brain dead.

>>98141522
>Imagine if a race had the ability to go invisible at lvl5 at will.
Duergar

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>>98141736
>A PC that makes you have to eliminate every wolf and dire lion encounter if you want the PCs to be threatened is a garbage PC, especially if he pays pretty much nothing for the power. It's not about every encounter
Things like wolves are a non-issue past level 5-6 anyway. The only time this is gonna be a serious problem is if you exclusively run games below that range.

>the moment everything isn't indoors
Stands to reason the wingspan of a human-sized creature would be far, far greater than that of ordinary birds. A few trees would make flight impossible, not even mentioning wind, rain, snow, etc.
Or you can stop being a colossal faggot and let your PC fly sometimes because it's not THAT big of an issue.

>>98133838
>As you're traveling through the woods, you're attacked by a viscous owlbear!
>...and also some hostile guys with crossbows are there too!

Yes arbitrarily tacking that on to every single encounter is so much more effective than just banning flying races and not giving a fuck the feelings of the kind of tryhard players who pick them.

>>98141603
Only have occasional days of strong wind. And it still doesn’t make the feature useless. They can still fly to overcome all kinds of obstacles, but they need to land after every turn. It is still very good for combat and exploring, but can’t be used to ”infiltrate” or what ever you seemed to be afraid of.
I mean you should do this weather thing anyway, it is in the rulebook.

I mean this whole ”infiltration/scouting/solo play” problem is about the player not the flight ability anyway. You can run into same issue with stealth, familiars (stealthy and flying btw), druids, tons of different spells etc.
Any competent player should know this is a group game and splitting the party should be avoided if not necessary.

>>98141856
Viscous owlbear has some horrific implications

>>98141433
>Cover exists on the ground. Cover does not exist in open air.

Trees routinely provide cover to flying creatures from grounded creatures. Every flying creature inevitably has some fucking longbow or sniper rifle, so of course they can make much better use of cover anyway.

I swear /tg/ is infested with people who don't actually play games and just make threads like this to argue and bait people.

>>98141736
>But the moment you go outdoors- the moment everything isn't indoors- then the PC again removes all threat and challenge from any outdoor encounter.
Forests, swimming, overhanging rocks, burrowing enemies, flying enemies, rain, snow, fog. You're not even trying.

>>98133900
They did find another way across. By flying. Dumbass.

>>98133915
No. Actions and movement are separate.

>>98133931
Simple, because it's not a problem option. There are far more powerful options available to the players, and none of them ruin the game, either.

>>98133915
>Simpler way is to not let flying PCs.
FTFY.

>>98134028
No, they don't. Encounters don't change based on the party.

Why are the inhabitants of the tower letting people approach it for free?

>>98134127
Is this supposed to be bad or something? lol?

>>98142946
No, not at all.

>>98142964
>Can I play an Aara-cock-sucker?
>No

IDK anon seems like an extremely simple solution to me.

File: file.png (213.5 KB)

>>98142978
Cope.

>>98141433
Nets can't even reach an airborne target due to limited range.
Hold Person likewise is only 60 foot range. If they're high up enough to be in danger of fall damage, then they're too high for the spell.
Paralysis itself is also more dangerous if there's already an enemy in melee range to auto-crit them.
20 feet of ceiling is enough to hover out of range of most reach weapons as well, so it isn't even as if flight is useless indoors.

Ranged weapons in general are also going to be worse for those ground-bound STR focused characters you're pointing to as an example of higher AC. A flying Dex character who specializes in a bow can always simply land and take advantage of cover while shooting if there are a lot of ranged enemies. Meanwhile the knight with a sword has to leave that cover in order to close the distance and fight the excessive number of archers that the DM included to try and counter the ranged character.

You're exceptionally retarded. Especially because of this bit >>98141349
>This means you probably also dumped CON
Why would anyone dump Con? You can't even imagine how other people are building their characters, and yet you're pretending to be an expert on encounter design.

>>98142993
>OP asks about flying in "D&Dlike games"
>you start posting what I can only assume is some kind of Marvel/DC superhero style game where flying is a mundane and expected part of the game

>>98143018
Yeah, D&D is bad, and my game is better.

>>98142928
Depends on system. In PF2e you get 3 actions every turn and each move costs 1 action, including flying. If you fly, you also have to spend an action every subsequent turn to remain aloft.

>>98143018
DnD literary has a 3rd level spell that lets you fly at will.

>>98143321
I don't think you know what "at will" means friendo.

>>98143321
DnD also has a 3rd level spell that lets you toss a fireball and incinerate a room full of enemies.
So that'd be equally fair as an at-will ability for a level 1 character, right?

>>98140408
>being able to trivially access second and higher stories, roofs, and the canopy doesn't matter
>underwater functionally everybody is flying except for people so heavy they can't get off the bottom, who are at a major disadvantage
I don't think you've thought this through completely.

>>98141436
>D&D is just notably worse than other systems at handling this problem by RAW, putting much more work on the DM.
Objectively incorrect. One bandit with a Heavy Crossbow shits on a flying character.

>>98141522
You can in fact have some things trivialized by flight. If a Player has an ability, they should be able to use it. In fact, I immediately thought about a puzzle that requires two people to finish, one able to reach a place high up in a large room and one on the ground. Shit, Wind Waker (Zelda game if you don't know) has a whole segement where LInk has to carry a flying bird girl around to get her to places he can't reach to progress.

>Imagine if a race had the ability to go invisible at lvl1 at will.
Oh boy they get Advantage on stealth checks! I'm pretty sure Bugbears get that now anyway, and even if they don't, it's really not as OP as you think it is. They're invisible, not silent, and the second they do ANYTHING the invisibility breaks.

Your issue isn't actually flight or invisibility, it's a lack of creativity in encounter and dungeon design. Not every ability needs to be relevant all the time, and not every ability needs to be useless all the time.

TTRPGs aren't competitive anyway; as a GM you should, ultimately, be rooting for the players even as you're rolling against them for the NPCs. You should hope they succeed rather than plot their absolute downfall because as a GM, you're god, you can just slap an encounter in that shuts all their shit down whenever you want. It's a collaborative storytelling game where the dice determine the outcomes. That guy who's invisible can absolutely whiff his roll and knock over a vase to give away his position. That flying guy can absolutely get crit by a heavy crossbow and fall out of the sky because he's at 0.

>>98141589
IMO AC is something with diminishing returns. Anything over 22 is overkill until level 10+, and 25 is the absolute max you NEED in 5e at least. Though really, I'm not a fan of AC as a system at all; I'm more fond of systems with opposed rolls. It makes combat faster because things die faster because you can't just pump one number and become untouchable, especially if combat uses D6 pools.

>>98142024
Then this cuts both ways. The treetops are cover against the flying creature.

>>98142028
Yeah, basically. There's maybe 2-3 posters I've seen who say shit that shows they play or run games. Anyone who thinks flight or invisibility is god mode is a nogames retard.

>>98143015
>Nets can't even reach an airborne target due to limited range.
Fling it from a catapault. Get creative. RAW is for faggots and retards.
>Hold Person likewise is only 60 foot range. If they're high up enough to be in danger of fall damage, then they're too high for the spell.
They're going to take fall damage at 60 feet. Read the book.
>Paralysis itself is also more dangerous if there's already an enemy in melee range to auto-crit them.
True, which is why while they're falling the guy's friends wait for where the birdman is gonna fall then stab him to death.
>20 feet of ceiling is enough to hover out of range of most reach weapons as well, so it isn't even as if flight is useless indoors.
It's also not god mode. There are thrown strength-based weapons any melee character can use with 20+ feet of range. And guess what happens when the flying guy hits the ground from 20 feet? Fall damage. Auto-fails on Death saves. In range of being stabbed.
>A flying Dex character who specializes in a bow can always simply land and take advantage of cover while shooting if there are a lot of ranged enemies.
Good thing all the guys he's shooting at are in full cover and he won't hit shit then.
>Meanwhile the knight with a sword has to leave that cover in order to close the distance and fight the excessive number of archers that the DM included to try and counter the ranged character.
You don't need more than one heavy crossbow to snipe a flying character.
>Why would anyone dump Con?
You're so confident you're invincible that you think you're never going to get hit. That's the typical mindset of you retards.
>You can't even imagine how other people are building their characters
I can tell you that the guy who went all in on flying is a retard because he thinks it makes him invincible. I'm the GM. I can ground you whenever I want, however I want. I can rip those wings off you and burn them in front of your character, and you can't stop me.

>>98144040
>being able to trivially access second and higher stories, roofs, and the canopy doesn't matter
You don't need flight for this, there are tons of ways in D&D to get a climb speed with little to no investment.
>underwater functionally everybody is flying except for people so heavy they can't get off the bottom, who are at a major disadvantage
See above, getting a swim speed is trivial.

>>98139538
A crossbow is a REALLY bad weapon against and arial moving target. You lose a lot of force firing it upward. But also a flying enemy can choose where and when to engage dumbass lol. Just wait til they set the crossbow down strike, fly away, repeat. Or fly above crossbow range (likely far enough not to be seen now) and drop something explosive

In real life, they use shot guns to shoot birds because using a single pellet would be retarded

>>98140386
Im talking about not just pcs but monsters as well. Also if you are a flyer you have the ultimate way to pick where and when you engage in like every single encounter.

Enemy in a building? Drop an incinarary device on the roof

>>98141293
I agree people NOT wearing hard hats at construction zones are the most likely to live through a hammer falling on their head

>>98144106
Why is everyone in this thread ignoring me when i say "i can do this, i would rather not bother" the amount of thought i need to put into an encounter is cut by half by not including a flying or invisible PC.

>>98144106
>One bandit with a Heavy Crossbow shits on a flying character
No it does not a flyer again can out range any ranged ground based character.

If a bow is range 120 and both are using one the only thing a character has to do to out range is move upward one position and is now immune
So every turn is move down shoot move up. Then the only thing an enemy could possibly do is a reaction which is typically limited to an a single attack

>>98144290
>You lose a lot of force firing it upward
Doesn't matter in "D&D like games".

>>98144114
>invisibility and flight are godmode
Literally no one in this thread said that. It is simply a large advantage, and saying you can counter the advantage does not make it not a large advantage

>>98144313
Everyone lacks reading comprehension

>unlimited at will flying sucks because you have to alter most encounters to account for it
>no just alter the encounters to account for it, it doesnt suck

>>98144106
And so we return to
>every encounter needs a bandit with a heavy crossbow

>>98144040
>trivially
Stop being a shit GM?

part of it is that the fliers don't want any reasonable restrictions on flight either
no encumbrance limits on what they can carry, no racial modifiers that make sense for fliers (lower health, limbs specialized for flying being far less useful at other things etc.)

If flight was limited to say, sapient parrots, there would be far less issues because there's some pretty glaringly obvious tradeoffs you get for flight there

Why dont they just cap the max height from the ground a flyer can be seems that'd solve a lot of issues people run into

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>>98144106
This guy gets it. You sound like a good GM. I'd play your games.

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>>98144290
>A crossbow is a REALLY bad weapon against and arial moving target. You lose a lot of force firing it upward
RAW it doesn't fucking matter chumpbucket

>>98144313
>it takes half his entire mental capacity to come up with "the hallway is too narrow" or "the enemy has a crossbow"

>>98147799
I was gonna say strawman, but actually you are right>>98147799

>Hallway, one word
>Narrow hallway, two words
Exactly half.
>Enemy
>Enemy with crossbow
Hmmm might be more than even less than half here.

>>98133900
>>98133930
Isn’t this just the rogue problem? They’re basically signing their death warrant as wherever they go down no one is going to be able to reach them
Always thought flying characters were cool

>>98144040
Oh no! You're on a roof!

Do D&Dniggers really?

>>98144313
No it isn't. The things in the world don't depend on the player characters.

>>98144326
It's not an advantage at all. If you're in range to attack someone, they're in range to attack you. End of.

>>98144334
Who are you quoting?

>>98146346
There aren't any issues.

>>98144106
What's the difference between whiffing and absolutely whiffing?

>>98133838
I personally fail to see the issue. Every mechanic in the game is designed to let players overcome obstacles. Flying overcomes obstacles. Oh no, your level 3 aarakoa cheesed the goblin encounter. Who gives a shit. There are plenty of other flying/scouting options too. Oh, your party uses flight to easily attach a rope to the tower to climb instead of bribing the guards. None of these things are problems. If you hate flight so much just have your end game actually take place in a dungeon with low ceilings. I really fail to see the issue.

>>98133838
If flight exists in the world, so do ranged attacks.
If flight exists in the world, structures are built with it in mind.
If flight exists in the world, military tactics develop with it in mind.
Anything you think is a problem, is only a problem because you've never actually had a thought in your life.

>>98148512
So flight frequently saves you time, rolls, and gold. That sounds like an amazing tradeoff, did you think this argument through?

Is this whole thread just some nogames autist seething at the imaginary scenario in his own head of wanting to play a race with free flying but the imaginary DM of his imaginary game telling him he can't, and then projecting that imaginary DM onto everyone who comes into the thread that argues with him?

Literally WHAT is the fucking point of making such a stupid thread?
If you are playing an actual campaign (which I sincerely doubt) with a DM who wouldn't let you play a flying race, why are you arguing with strangers on /tg/ about it instead of with your actual DM?
And if you aren't playing in a campaign, and this entire problem is just something you made up in your head, then what the fuck are you so angry about?

>>98148983
Just like any other ability that saves you time, rolls, and gold. Wow, amazing.

>>98139032
>>98133951
movement becomes irrelevant as melee and if youre ranged not so much beyond playing peek a boo behind cover

>>98149059
shut the fuck up

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>>98149059
People read a lot of posts about an issue that might be 10% actual events. For example someone is trying to make a setting focused on flying creatures and it clashes with existing mechanics or someone had a player that abused implied spaces in certain races. The other 90% is talking shit, which is reassonable, it's no different from people discussing their dream teams in a sport they don't play.

Those convos keep on going and going for years until they become completely natural. So much that people think those are actual issues that deserve debate, there's no way people would discuss for years something that could end with "talk with your GM/player and set proper goals and expectations". And if it's such a big deal this one solution they came up with (which is never to talk with the other and angree on how they want the game to go) is vital material that will forever change the face of every ttrpg site.

>>98134028
Agreed. I call it anti-trope design and it's shit. You want to emulate story tropes and archetypes and the game to support that, but so often it just runs completely counter to the fantasy you want in the genre you're playing in instead. Like it's just skipping over the very things we are here for.
>remove curse
>create food and water
>darkvision
>infinite light cantrip
jfc

>>98149059
>Literally WHAT is the fucking point of making such a stupid thread?
Engagement bait.

>>98133838
It's not easily modeled on a table. It tends toward splitting the party. It trivializes encounters at low level. It makes fight last longer and be more tedious.

>>98149461
Nah.

>>98149433
No I don't. I run games, not stories.

>>98143849
Yes.

>>98149468
the tropes will occur naturally through playing the game, silly, you're not playing basic geometric shapes with numbers, you're having an aragorn avatar on your sheet for a reason

>>98149490
The troll you're feeding doesn't have any sheet in the first place.

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>>98144114
>Anyone who thinks flight or invisibility is god mode is a nogames retard

Everyone advocating for what this thread is really about- 5e D&D's unbalanced flying races- is just a shitbag munchkin.

AD&D 2e and D&D 3e both had ways to play pretty wild races, including pixies, who are permanently invisible, hard to damage, and flying. AD&D and OD&D had level limits, which made flying characters really powerful at low level but they hit their level caps pretty fast. They also hardly ever had just straight up winged men as a plausible choice, usually forcing you to be some weird beast, or to make your ranged attack with your wacky talon-feet and a custom footbow. 3e's method was better, you'd have a "level adjustment" and it was pretty plainly obvious that if you had an LA of +4 and were in a 1st level party that you were at minimum the equivalent of a 4th level character there, so tables were warned and no one was confused.

But 5e is not just any game- it's a game where flight takes concentration or a magic item, and also a game where there's no inbuilt way to really get the magic item that you want. This means before about 6th level that flight is just busted as fuck, and past that point is still a massive boon because concentration is a pretty massive nerf to flight, and skipping that is huge.

But there's other 5e-specific problems. If you can figure out the range of your enemies, you can hang out a bit outside of it, vertically, and on your turn you can dip into range, shoot your shots, and then zip back out of range. Other games don't have this homo shit because they don't give you free movement around your attacks, a 5e feature that works pretty great on the ground but absolutely terrible in the air.

Finally, being a flyer in 5e is costless. The races still have the same ability bonuses and some mild budget on top of the wings. It's nowhere near correctly costed.

>>98144128
>Fling it from a catapault.
I'm sure glad that ground-based PCs are immune to catapults.
>Read the book
The book says that 60 feet and 65 feet are the same amount of fall damage. So just fly at 65 to be out of range of hold person. What's the problem?

>It's also not god mode.
Never said it was. Having resistance to every damage type in the game isn't god mode either, but it'd still be a strong feature to have, wouldn't it?
>There are thrown strength-based weapons any melee character can use with 20+ feet of range.
A Javelin does less damage than a Greatsword.
>In range of being stabbed.
As opposed to all those characters who can't fly at all. They're never in range of being stabbed.

>Good thing all the guys he's shooting at are in full cover and he won't hit shit then.
Is there another race that gets to ignore full cover with their ranged attacks? Or is this a problem that every character would have to deal with even if they don't have wings?
>You don't need more than one heavy crossbow to snipe a flying character.
You don't need more than one heavy crossbow to snipe a heavy crossbowman.

>You're so confident you're invincible
Like I said, not invincible. You're the one who is confusing situational immunity to melee weapons with godhood. The fact you think dumping Con is a typical mindset for anyone trying to minmax makes me think you've never actually ran a game for this sort of PC.
>I can rip those wings off you and burn them in front of your character, and you can't stop me.
Or you could simply be honest with your players up-front and ban the race. Instead of pretending as if it's so easy to balance around only to give up and tear the PCs wings off as soon as you feel like you can't handle it.

>>98149490
Wrong.

>>98149763
It's not busted in the least.

>>98150048
So you can't actually present a single reason why it's overpowered? kek

>OP wakes up after sleeping for a few hours
>sees he has 3 new (you)s
>types up inflammatory 1 sentence (or even 1 word) replies to each of them, and posts them on the post cooldown 1 minute apart, proving he isn't even reading the posts before responding to them

If this isn't enough proof for anyone in this thread to realize OP is only here to bait then I don't know what is.

>think I'm OP
>STILL has no argument
>throws a tantrum instead of discussing anything

kek

>flying is broken
>why
>it just is
This thread lmao

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>>98151806
It's broken because some DMtards ITT are too lazy to say "the enemy has a crossbow" and can't fathom that players can (and often do) have abilities that make certain types of encounters easier. Not to mention, not EVERY encounter has to be designed around your players. If your player makes a wizard specializing in pyromancy, are you gonna suddenly start making every room too small to use fireball and give every enemy fire resistance? Or are you not a colossal faggot and you'll give them opportunities where they can use their special abilities and feel like the MVP, while also giving them situations that challenge those abilities and force them to find creative workarounds.

Not every encounter has to be, nor should be, your enemies dogwalking your PCs, nor should every encounter be your PCs curb stomping the enemies. Let the players win sometimes. It's not a big deal. Should be your objective as a DM anyway unless you just hate your players or their characters.

Now OP is just shamelessly samefagging

>>98151890
You're a nogames larping as a shitty DM

>inb4 projecting
If you actually played games, you'd know flight isn't that big of a deal.

Now he's projecting.
And he's projecting about the fact that he's projecting.

>>98133900
>chasm full of magic automated crossbow turrets that shoot at anything that tries to cross
dear god

>>98151860
This anon is right. It's completely acceptable to have players have the upper hand sometimes. If one player in your party flies and that gives them a situational advantage, that's ok. If it's always a problem, it's a DM problem.

This thread is definitely a troll thread.
Lets examine the alleged team of pro-birdman posts, shall we? There's a huge number of them that simply raise one easily refuted point, or simply refuse to engage with any of the points, simply asserting that 1+1=3.
>>98133979
Class 1, autorefuting claim
>>98134008
Class 1
>>98134272
Class 2, 1+1=2? No way, it's 3!
>>98134283
Class 2
>>98137303
Class 1
>>98137445
Class 1
>>98138009
Class 1
>>98140386
Class 2
>>98141539
Maybe Class 1; it might not be obvious that strong wind isn't going to be present very often, and players have a lot of choice about when and where they adventure.

>>98142917
Class 2
>>98142958
Class 2
>>98142964
Class 2
>>98143321
Class 2

>>98148290
Class 2
>>98149464
Class 2
>>98149479
Class 2
>>98151090
Class 2
>>98151099
Class 2
>>98151806
Class 1
>>98152254
Class 2

On the million D&D 5e reddits there are flying race tools that will get mad at any DM that points out that these optional things are kinda OP especially given the various idiosyncrasies of 5e. So there could me more than one troll here- I just don't know.

>>98155033
Majority of the posts you marked as 2 is one troll/bot.

>>98155027
>>98155031
>>98155033
>>98155185
You sound obnoxious and not worth listening to.

If I ever want an opinion of a worthless shitposter, I'll let (you) know.

>>98155299
Class 2

>D&D 5e DMs can't handle a flying character
>meanwhile I'm running a game with a player that has a teleport speed
lol

>>98156238
Class 2

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>>98156292
You know I actually think it's Class 1 because it pretty much refutes itself. It's meant to get you to respond with something like "low level D&D doesn't have teleport speeds" or "many other games are built to support flying, teleportation, and more, OP's decision to pretend this was a broad topic thread is to explicitly allow for this kind of meaningless weasel-claim" or "did that PC get that teleport speed with no cost at 1st level like the birdgeeks do" or something.

I think if he had left out the middle line it would be class 2. It's possible he's trying to adapt when put under the microscope.

>>98156531
I dont think its an actual person, i think its an LLM, which is why its repetitive and seems to ignore reasoning.

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In My time running 5e I only ever had to deal with 2 different flying PCs (both aarakocra), but I found it to be a negligible issue at best. These are the highlights of moments/times when flying was very helpful for one reason or another:

>Players were kidnapped and forced to fight in a coliseum. The aarakocra player was strong enough to be able to carry the other 2 PCs, so after they fought through some guards and made it to the open-air arena space, he flew out with them.
I can see how someone might say that "skips" the entire encounter or the rest of the coliseum, but I thought it was a cool solution.

>Players were in a dungeon that had a large pit, with pillars that could be jumped to. Aarakocra simply flew over carrying some of the PCs while another used his ring of jumping to get across.
Again, not really a big deal to Me. If they were high enough level, they could've flown or teleported over the pit anyway. I maybe should've said the hallway/dungeon was too small for him to spread his wings but oh well.

>Players are fighting a demon at the top of a narrow, cramped tower.
The PC didn't bother flying at all because it wouldn't have meaningfully changed anything about the fight.

>PCs are fighting a bunch of demons in a castle courtyard, fairly open-air environment.
One of the demons (and they knew this because they'd been to the castle before with different characters) had a lightning beam attack that required a saving throw, not an attack roll. When the bird PC flew out of range of the other combatants, the demon shot him with the lightning beam, instantly KOing him, sending him falling to the ground and also instantly failing a couple death saves.

Flight is really not THAT broken in 5e. If you're gonna ban it on the basis that it can just "skip" certain problems, you should also be banning things like fireball that the designers have admitted is intentionally overpowered for it's level.

>>98149461
>It's not easily modeled on a table.
This is a big one, both theatre of mind and grid-based physical "battlemap" suck at depicting verticality. Even games that are thematically about combat in 3d space (Battlefleet Gothic, Star Wars X-wing) will mechanically simplify it into 2d plane.

>>98155033
Ironic kek

>>98133838
You'd understand how retarded your post is if you weren't nogames.

I've always wondered what kind of deficiency, or main character syndrome some posters have to develop or have, to go off and dismiss every other post that disagrees with them as just "bots" or one person.

>>98157062
Its a wider problem in society currently people have a hard time conceptualizing someone can have a differing opinion and thus try to find ways to dismiss it entirely without engaging with it.

>>98157062
It's autism

>>98151099
>ignores reasons presented
>refuses to answer questions
I accept your concession.

>>98133900
>has a party where everyone can fly
>hmm I need an obstacle
>chasm
skill issue

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>>98149763

>Finally, being a flyer in 5e is costless. The races still have the same ability bonuses and some mild budget on top of the wings. It's nowhere near correctly costed.

This is the actual issue to me. D&D 5e's flying species "price" flight as dirt cheap.

Other grid-based tactical combat systems I play, such as D&D 4e, Pathfinder 2e, Draw Steel, and indie titles like Tacticians of Ahm, Tailfeathers/Kazzam, Tom Abbadon's ICON, and level2janitor's Tactiquest, charge a higher opportunity cost for flight.

>>98133838
I'm tired of fantasy games being superhero games.
PCs shouldn't be flying, seeing in the dark, immune to all npcs that aren't super speshul like them

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Darkvision bugs Me infinitely more than flight does.

>The dungeon has no light, you can barely see-
>I HAVE DARKVISION
>Okay, well, you can somewhat see and make out the details and...

>The wizard snuffs out every torch in the room, cascading the area in blackness.
>AKSHUALLY I HAVE DARKVISION I CAN SEE JUST FINE
>Well, technically, it's still dim light, so you have disadvantage.
>BUT I CAN SEE I HAVE DARKVISION

>The demon casts a spell, and an orb of pitch black void surrounds you, rendering you and your allies unable to see through the darkness.
>WAIT! I HAVE DARKVISION! GUYS DID I TELL YOU ABOUT MY DARKVISION!? DID YOU KNOW ABOUT MY HECKIN DARKVISION?!
>It's magical darkness through which you cannot see.
>NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

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>>98156833
Fireball isn't overpowered for its level. The devs did claim that (there's a whole blog), but it's just wrong. Compare it to all the other damage-only wizard/sorcerer spells in the 5.0 PHB- they are all on the same template as fireball. Only spells that do some other thing entirely are at that template, or "priest" spells.

>but I found it to be a negligible issue at best
Do you run random encounters? Do these guys start at level 1? 5th edition is like the worst version for flying PCs because they pay nothing.

>>98163323
I mean, they can't wear heavy armor, so not nothing, but it's not a huge impairment.

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>>98163323
It would've been a nice touch if they added a RAW wingspan limit.

>Fireball isn't overpowered for its level
But neither is flight thoughever.

>Do you run random encounters?
Yes. Still a non-issue, they mostly stayed on the ground, or if they did fly the enemies usually had ranged options. I've never had an encounter completely shut down by flight.

>Do these guys start at level 1?
Levels 1 and 2 in 5e are borderline unplayable. The first 2 stories were at around level 5 and the latter 2 were level 3, maybe 4.

>they pay nothing
IIRC they can't wear medium or heavy armour meaning at best their AC will be 17 without magic items and that falls off fairly quickly as you get higher up.

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